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We have separate checking accounts.  Wife has no access to mine, and I don't have access to hers.  In a healthy married relationship with two people having shared expenses living under one roof, I think it's best to have common access to money and bills and such.  being that this is a relationship with an unstable person who obsesses over money I feel hesitant, and that we are very newly married, we haven't gotten to that point yet.

So, she wants access to all the online accounts for bills and stuff.  And I am considering adding her name to the checking account so that she can go out shopping for food and common expenses. 

Good idea here?  I still think it a bad idea to put her name on things like deeds or mortgages.   I think that is a bad, bad idea for any couple just from an economic security standpoint. 

How do you all handle this?

Don't do it.  I did that for groceries and such and she spent thousands and thousands extra.  Hate to have to treat them like kids, but they are, lol.

I would try not to share any accounts if I were you.  My BPDex-fiancee and her mother (also BPD) seemed to want to spend every dollar in their possession (and then some), often on unnecessary items.  I think the spending is a manifestation of BPD traits of impulsiveness and a lack of long-term planning.  Also, I know if our accounts were shared my pwBPD would use spending sprees as a threat against me.  Finally, my pwBPD had a boatload of debt (I think all student loans) and I suspect she was hoping to pay some of this off with a joint account in the hopes that my name would somehow get tied in as being responsible for this debt.

How did I handle finances?  When we lived together, I began giving my pwBPD a check every two weeks that represented a percentage of my income.  It was a considerable amount of money, which I hoped would put an end to her petty money demands (e.g., "I need $100!" but to my dismay she continued making petty money demands (I realized that it was never about the money per se, I think it was just about wanting to complain and make demands for the sake of it).  Anyhow, I am glad that I never shared accounts with her, because I know she would have cleared it out during a period of painting me black.  Mind you, despite my generous arrangement, she still wanted to have shared accounts.  My only answer to this could be "No."  Some of my friends justify having separate accounts from their spouses by saying that it's then more meaningful when they take each other on dates and buy each other gifts -- seems like a decent excuse if you feel like you need to add to "No."

 

No, no, no, no.

My husband spends like the proverbial drunken sailor on all sorts of stuff for himself now that he has inherited money. It's his money so I can't say a thing, but I do see the pwBPD trying to fill the emptiness in their souls through buying stuff. And it's never enough... .

My thinking would be that she keeps her own account with her disability money.  Then give her access to my account so that she can use it to buy groceries, etc.  That way, she can still use her own money to waste.  I think I know her well enough that she would not just go out and spend the shared money on wasteful things without asking.  But I think she will want to, and I will have to be better at saying "no".

Why not cut her a check once a month or something, as opposed to sharing an account?  I'm not saying that one method is necessarily better than the other, just curious. 

I don't think it's a good idea. My H is terrible with money and spend it like water. He has no access to the accounts. I pay all the bills and do grocery shopping. If you are concerned about her having grocery money, can't you just give her some every week? Does it have to be on a joint account card?

We have the opposite situation.  My H is the breadwinner, I have been the stay at home parent. I'm very frugal and modest with expenses. I do buy myself something from time to time, but it is usually on sale and not over the top. My H has calmed down a bit about money, but in the early years, especially when he painted me black, he had it in his head that the kids and I were a unit, and as long as he supported us, he could do what he wanted with the rest.

He made it known that he gave me a significant amount of money- which he did, but a lot of that went for household food ( his argument was that he was home less, so we were eating it) , kids clothing, kids activities, etc... basically, I was going to do for the kids first. He was generous, so I am not complaining, but it would never occurr to me to make a major purchase without talking to him about it. I assumed that we were a team together- him and me so I had no clue about his mental divisions of him/ me+kids.

The rest he considered his. He did drain the accounts with some big "man toys" and not tell me about it. I would notice that the money was missing, and he'd say things like " I make the money so I get to decide how to spend it" He has calmed down a bit, partly because economically, things have changed and he has less money to spend on these kinds of things and he thankfully pays for family expenses first. However, he really believes that whoever makes more money should get to spend more on themselves. Well, in the real world that is true, he who makes it decides how to spend it. However, you can't treat your stay at home wife as if she is a domestic employee. He would talk about the money as "his money" not ours. He now says its ours but I am not sure if he sees it that way.

I think that whatever money he has spent on me, he has more than gotten his money's worth as he has not had to ever worry about the kids, and he's had 24/7 child care, nanny, homework tutor, cook, home maker all in one person.

Although we have joint checking, I take a part of it and use it as our family budget ( that's me and the kids). The rest he manages. Although he deposits his paycheck, he can take what he wants out of it first, and I would not even know. For the most part, he seems to be open about the money. He has apologized sort of for some of the cruel things he said to me about money. He used to not trust me enough to put my name on accounts. He even admitted that I was better at managing money and I have taken care of the money better than he has.

Idealy, H and W should be on the same page with money, equal partners, and trust each other. However, this doesn't happen in a dysfunctional marriage. Also depending on state law, money could be joint property- but it can't be joint property if someone is spending it all or deciding that one gets to spend significantly more on themselves than the other.

My mom spent money like no tomorrow. Dad lived like a poor man, with clothes he wore forever. Mom had whatever she wanted. We kids had to scrimp too. It was like all the money went on her and there wasn't much left.

If you are the non in a relationship, I suggest you protect your money. I have a small account in my name. My H hates that I have it, but I feel better that I do.

 

Max,

"They" will change the rules... ."change" the conversations and agreements... .and not blink an eye. 

So... .I think what you are talking about is generally a bad idea.

If saying no doesn't stress you out... .then go for it.

What happens when she blows the money.  If you can stand to let her clean up the mess... .then do it.

No rescuing allowed

In my r/s... .my wife grabbed and spent $30k... .she will sometimes admit this broke our agreement.  we had an agreement... .suggested by her... .that money things over $100 got discussed and agreed on.  If no agreement... .no spend.

Well... "things were so weird... " so she had to.  We needed a new roof.  "Help me understand how moving the money to your account where I have no access got you a roof?"

Anyway... .I honestly don't value money that highly... .when compared to people.  So... .I made a choice not to fight this action... .  But... .I will not shield her from consequences. 

I have a pension and some other guaranteed monthly money... so... .if things ever really got ridiculous... .I could take back over and save things next month.  In other words... .I don't think there is scenario where we end up on street or not eating.

Our credit is shot though.  Oh well.

If I ever do a save or take back over... .that door slams... .and I control it from then on out.  No explanations... .no negotiations.

She now has an understanding of how hard the finances were to manage... .and she hates it.  It's actually good for her to learn this... .but has come at high cost.

Can you bear this cost now?

Max, putting her on your accounts is a terrible idea.

Your money. Your responsibility.

If you give full access to your money to somebody who is acting F***ING BATS*** CRAZY right now, you are not taking care of yourself.

Be responsible.

You always have the opportunity to give her cash, write her a check, or buy something for her, if you want to, with separate accounts.

have you considered setting up separate joint account to deposit shared money for groceries?

Not a bad idea, but I would still be cautious here because of debt that she could get into or pull you into, through the joint account.

 

One idea... .for the joint account... .shared idea. 


That money should be for truly shared expenses.  Groceries is great.

So... .on a certain day of the month... .when she deposits her share... .you deposit your share... .and then the account is subject to whatever the rules are about how decisions are made.

If either party perceives the rules are broken... .they withhold the next deposit.

I would agree up front on a third party that will evaluate the rules to see if they really were broken.

Now... .here is the thing... .why in the world would we make it this complex?  Because we know they will break the rules.

At least this way it keeps you somewhat out of the line of fire.  And it is possible this can be a tool to "illustrate" areas they need to work on.

In Max's case... .his wife is in treatment... .and something like this could be incorporated into things that are being monitored.

If a pwBPD was not in treatment... .I would never consider this.  Even with treatment... .you need to understand there will be failures... .but since treatment is there... .there is a chance to use the failure to push things in the right direction.

Thoughts?

FF, I think that sort of 'plan' for a joint account sounds reasonable. I wish I'd done something like it when I first got married instead of merging all our finances, looking back.

I also think that it is waaaaay to complicated to be worth setting up given the chaos in max's household this month.

Don't try to negotiate something complicated around money when the pwBPD is very easily triggered by money issues. That's asking for trouble.

If he just says "No, I won't put your name on my accounts." it is much shorter and cleaner.

yeah, I agree here.  That's why I have avoided this until now.  She has issues with money.  Obsessions over it.  I avoided trying to work on a financial plan for our household because it's hard to implement when there is too much regular chaos. 

And while today I thought this was potentially a good idea, jut a little while ago she said she is going to immediately divorce me after our wedding, and she is only going through with the wedding for "show".  Umm.  Why would I want to merge finances with someone who claims to want to divorce me in a month?

Max keep the housekeeping and bills money account finances just where it is right now, with you. Your wife will have her disability money and if she wants additional money you can discuss the possibility of this with her within the context of your household budget.

What I'm wondering max is given your wife's ongoing instability what makes you think this might help/be a good idea?

Again I'm sensing from your posts that her focus on blaming you for her lack of money and that through this she also believes you are also controlling her has you reconsidering your current arrangements. This is part of BPD, hold fast to what you already have in place as a boundary for you, it is working, don't be FOGed by what is happening at the moment.

I think the main theme of what I posted and what FF posted is that, whatever the agreement, it is likely to be broken.

My idea of what finances are in healthy marriages is that the spouses are a team where responsibilities are concened. If one spouse has a higher income, the money should be pooled as most expenses are for shared items- house, kids, food. If one spouse is home- taking on most of those duties, the working spouse can still recognize the contribution of the stay at home spouse.

In addition to joint money, each spouse should have some money to spend for themselves without having to explain- depending on household income. I also think these amounts should be equal in general, or there will be resentment. For instance, if one spouse has an expensive wardrobe, or car collection, and the other can only go to Starbucks once in a while, there will be a problem.

I don't think this can be done in a marriage with a BPD because whatever is agreed on, is likely to be broken, and when it is, the spouse will justify it ( " I need a roof" I make the money" ).

Because it isn't just about the money, but the basics of the relationship- trust, communcation, and accountability. I don't mean the usual things- like buying a new dress, or video game- the small things that I don't think need to be discussed. I don't think spouses need to explain every purchase to each other, but they must understand that something like $30 K disappearing is a breach of trust- and the damage is to the trust in addition to the budget.

That's the part my H didn't get for years, and still doesn't quite get it I think, although he realizes that his unexpected purchases and cruel justifications did more damage to his marriage than they did financially. If he really wanted his man toys, I would have understood that, and we could have budgeted for them. This would have kept the relationship intact instead of just taking the money and not saying anything and then when I found out being cruel about it. The other issue is that once they breach the agreement, it is close to impossible to get accountability.

The money issues are the result of the disorder. You need tight boundaries just like with other areas. However, also respect the fact that spouses should have some money to themselves, so decide what you will agree on for joint expenses, and also how much you wish to "gamble" on- ie what if she/drains the account.

I'm going to echo sweetheart's comment- money in the hands of an unstable person isn't a good idea at all. If someone is not going to make wise decisions in other areas of their lives, then they won't make wise decisions with money either.

In the case of spouses who are generally stable and responsible, but there are still issues with intimacy, dysregulation, I think you get a parallel pattern- they are still responsible with money in general, but there can be incidences where agreements are broken, which is more a symptom of the relationship issues.

However, an unstable person is not likely to be responsible.

Max, if I read this right- you are about to be married to someone who says they will divorce you in a month? Why would you get married under these circumstances? In some areas, the law is joint marital property, and once married to you, she can claim half of what you own and even if not, when people get married, they promise to be together. I don't see where she has that plan in mind.

You could also end up responsible for joint debts, and other financial mistakes she has made. What is her credit card debt? 

The only upside... .to getting a third party to oversee the joint money... .is that max no longer has to be the bad guy.  He can commiserate with her feelings when she is feeling blue over blowing the rules... .and wish her better luck next month.

Unlikely she would ever go for this... .but... .it's a thought.

I think getting her in front of a P and keeping her there... .is a much bigger deal.   

Notwendy, you make really good points about fairness, equality, trust, communication and accountability.

As a non, in a relationship with a pwBPD who has recently inherited a lot of money, it's interesting to discover all the ways that money can damage relationships. Quick background: when we first got together and were building a house together, I was the one with money and I indulged a variety of his extravagant wishes when we built his man cave. He was working at the time and he seemed frugal and responsible with money. Now he's retired and in the last few months has probably spent $150 thousand on camera gear in addition to a wardrobe of expensive suits he almost never wears.

My closet contains used eBay clothes and shoes, but recently I've started buying new things and running up a balance on my credit card. Even though I haven't expressed it to him, I've felt very unappreciated for my contributions to our relationship. He gives me a monthly allowance, now that I've spent nearly all my money on housebuilding, but I buy food, pay for home repairs, take care of expenses for the animals and at the end of the month, there is little discretionary funds for anything else. Meanwhile, new $8000 cameras show up on a regular basis. How many cameras does one person need?

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience as a non. I find it terribly frustrating to not be in an "equal" relationship. It's not that I want to buy a lot of stuff, but when one person can freely spend and the other has to watch the budget very carefully, it creates resentment. I can only imagine how this would play out if I were a pwBPD. I can tell myself how fortunate I am, even though we have different economic realities in this marriage. But a pwBPD might interpret the inequality in a way that leads to rages or acting out behavior.

Max, I do think you need to keep control of the money. I guess I want to caution you to be really explicit about exactly how much is needed for household expenses. Money is a touchy subject and you already know it's a trigger for her.

"I find it terribly frustrating to not be in an "equal" relationship. It's not that I want to buy a lot of stuff, but when one person can freely spend and the other has to watch the budget very carefully, it creates resentment."

Exactly. This is how I grew up. Mom had designer outfits, Dad shopped at lower end stores and he scrimped. We kids had our needs met, but if we asked for anything extra, it was a strain.

This imbalance seemed strange to me, as Dad was the wage earner. This was not unusual for their era. They could afford some nice things and it would have made sense if they each could have some nice things. It was just a shock that most of them were on Mom while Dad denied himself.

I never expected this to happen in my marriage, but it did. My H seemed so normal on the outside. I just assumed that we'd have a healthy relationship with finances, but what happened with finances was just one result of the dysfunction in the r/s. If the r/s is dysfunctional then so will be the r/s with how to do everything else. I never saw it coming because we met as students, we didn't have any money so there were no large purchases and we scrimped for everything. This was the case when we first started working.

So I assumed it would remain so when the kids came along, I cut back to part time- then to full time at home while H advanced in his job. The trouble started with the income discrepancy, and I didn't realize that he saw it as his money and that if he made more, he'd spend more. It didn't occurr to me that someone would spend large amounts of money without the spouse knowing it, if they had any idea of what this would do to the trust in the marriage.

So one day, I was looking at the accounts and saw a large sum of money missing. My first assumption was some kind of error, or theft- someone had gotten into the accounts. I didn't think it was my H because I didn't believe he would do that. But it was... .and when I got upset about it ,it all went downhill from that.

His retort is always " do you want for anything? " the answer is no, thank goodness. I am so grateful for what I have. I have wants and I am grateful that I can get them, however, I think what pw BPD want is something different. I think the need to buy these things is about something in them. They don't really need it at the physical sense, ( they may enjoy it) but I always got the sense that the need could never be filled, because of a greater emptiness inside of them. They can't get enough cameras, clothing, man toys, because, they can't feel as if they are enough.

How has this changed the r/s? Like Cat, I did scrimp, but depriving myself just led to being resentful. I will get something nice if I want, but it isn't something extravagant.  However, I am most happy when our money is spent on something that fulfills me too, such as college tuition as it gives me more pleasure to see my children achieve their dreams than buying a new outfit. My H feels that pleasure too when it comes to the kids, but I don't think he sees that way if I spend something on me.- I'm still taking his money in a way, even though I have worked for years taking care of him and the kids, and our home without a paycheck.

[Looks like the forums were down for a bit, and I think the post I'm quoting here got eaten]


Uhm. What the heck? You still want to go through with a wedding under these circumstances... .when your better judgment tells you not to put her name on your bank account.

There are a LOT of half-hidden financial obligations that you are signing up for when you say "I do."

And that doesn't even count feeding into her NEED to have a BABY NOW, which marriage has to feel like a step in that direction to her.


... .


I'm sure you are aware of these concerns / red flags; I've pulled them from things you have written. Still you are going forward. I'm sure you have a powerful reason/motivation there. I'm not sure you know what it is.

What is it in yourself that is keeping you going forward with your marriage?

My first guess is a fear of hurting her / abandoning her. (Your answer matters, not my guess!)

I echo GK- marriage and a baby- with someone threatening to divorce you in a few months?

Max... ./hug /hug /hug /hug

I echo GK and Notwendy, hun. What is your motivation here? I'm sorry, hun  It's obvious to me that you love her and are tore up over this

Max, I followed some of your posts awhile back when you referred to your wife as your fiance, but now I'm out of the loop.   Are you already married to her and the upcoming wedding is just for the ceremony?  Or are you considering marrying her now?  Either way, I really feel for your situation and am amazed  you have not had a nervous breakdown yourself by now.  It seems that your wife (future wife?) is self-destructing and is determined to take you down with her.  Can you see yourself living this way for the rest of your life?  Because you might have to.  

I wish someone had sat me down 33 years ago and pointed out the red flags with my husband.  Though he is not BPD (our daughter is though)  and his behavior in no way parallels your wife's (future wife's?), he has serious issues and is awful to be around.  I would do things very differently if I knew then what I know now.  

I wish you the best.  

 

Masterling:

Personally, I think you should wait awhile say 2 to 3 years until you CO-MINGLE your account/mortgages and deed. Wait until you feel comfortable about her ability to use the money properly and wisely.

You could start by opening up a joint checking account where you and she deposit so much a month for foods, utilities, phone, cable, tv. Make sure the receipts are put into a folder or envelope so that accountability can be established. She should have her own account and you have your own account. Not having to ask for spending money is a very good feeling of independency as a productive individual.

If you purchase the house prior to marriage then you should keep it that way. The moment you add her onto the deed, she automatically 1/2 owner. This means if she divorces you then she can walk away with 1/2 of the proceed and she can force you to sell or kick out of your house. Check with your state laws. WHere I live, what came before marriage stay with the owner even in the divorce.

Many couples I have seen divorce not because of infidelity but because of the difference in how to handle finances. If one person spends frivolously and not save for tomorrow, then sooner or later the stress from not having enough funds for emergency stuffs, like car repairs, roof replacement, medical bills, will bring the marriage to a halt. Money cannot buy you happiness but it can certainly make your life a much easier ride. For example, my 1st wife died 10 years ago suddenly and left me with 3 young daughters and without her income of 70K per year. Luckily, I made enough money and with frugal living, and with insurance I was able to pay off my house and also for all 3 college educations without getting in debt. It made the suffering much easier to handle.

Statistics show that 1 out 2 marriages will end up in divorce and 3 out 5 in the second marriage. I am in the second marriage so I have to be mindful of that potential reality, especially each of us has our own set of children. A wrong move can leave your own children with nothing and your spouse's kids can inherit all of your assets (if your spouse's children are under 18 then potentially his/her x-spouse can enjoy your assets, being the guardian of these youngsters).   

Sharing is hard to undo once it is started

Some useful information here:

Managing Money - Issues for Those With Borderline Personality Disorder (http://www.BPD.about.com/od/livingwithBPD/a/MoneyManagBPD.htm)

Perspective gets lost and impulsive needs can grow with the opportunity to access them

Hi, max.  You said:


This is my perspective too, so I can really understand where you are coming from, but the mind of a pwBPD is not healthy.

I want to share.  I want to have a joint account where we can pool our resources.  I want us to work together toward the same goals.  I want to trust him.  I have trusted him, only to have the same cycle happen over and over, month after month, year after year.  Talk about a budget together, he sees the numbers on paper, and then he spends what he wants to spend.  Go to buy food, and find that the debit card is rejected.  Huge purchases that result in not enough money for groceries for growing boys.  Or for clothes.  Or doctors appointments.  Sometimes not enough money for gas.  Humongous debts and nothing to show for it.   Bankruptcy twice.  Large expenses looming and wondering how they will be paid.  Constantly telling him, “There’s  only so-and so dollars left in the checking account.”  Trouble with taxes.  It has been a very long financial nightmare. If it is possible to have some sort of PTSD from it, I have it.  Finally my eyes have been opened. 

It’s just as important to protect ourselves from BPD financially as it is to protect ourselves physically and emotionally. 

Thanks for the advice everyone.   Right now I actually trust her to spend money wisely.  She's had a few slip ups with her own money over the past two years, but she is mostly okay here.  She actually tried to ease my fears in this area last night without me prompting, leading me to think that she knows she has had issues in this area before.  I actually trust her to spend money wisely just as much as I would anyone else I was married to. 

My real fear is that she obsesses over money in any way possible, and giving her access to one more bank statement and one more set of bills will only enable the obsession more.  She says it would be the opposite, that way she won't be obsessing over something she has no access to. 

Given that... .

I think that a joint checking account for shared expenses is a fantastic idea. With defined contributions on your part (and hers if she has income!)


The extra access to the joint account (while keeping your account independent!) will test that theory.

After a couple months, you will be able to decide for yourself whether she seems more or less obsessed over it.

Fwiw- my mom was always deciding that she had to have something and it would solve her problems or the problems between her and my dad (not considering that the problem was within her ). Naturally these solutions didn't work although they may have given a brief relief)

I remember once she came up with the idea that we had to take a family vacation as it would save their relationship . She concluded that the reason dad was tense was because of his job. This was disruptive - dad had to arrange time off. I would have to quit a summer job which I liked (I was a teen) . Of course mom won - she always got her way- either badgering dad or being sweet and seductive. They insisted I quit my job.

No it did not work. I mention this because the tendency to obsess is because of anxiety. This can not be ended by external things but is usually transferred to something else . Your wife's reasoning is that changing the finances will stop her obsession. This is looking for an external cure to what is internal.

Max you have gotten good suggestions and yet, it seems that you are going along with your wife's reasoning. What do you want to do? If you want to share money then that is your choice, but you will also have to deal with any consequences.

 

OK... Max... .think about the theory here.

The only possible way this works is if the rules have her "acting" first... .and your contribution is a defined "reaction".

So... .an example would be a defined ratio.

You will double her contribution "up to" a certain amount.

So... .she puts in $100... .you put in $200.  No debate... .no drama... no questions.

No "loans" or any other things should be contemplated.  If she doesn't make a deposit... .neither do you.

How to set up the "output" side... .will be a bit more complicated.  But I would leave it in her hands to provide a written budget... .a written proposal on the rules... .  Tweak this for extreme clarity.

Right now you trust her to spend money wisely. Do you think that could change when you give her access to your money?

My husband was really frugal when he was working and I assumed that was how he rolled. After he retired and then inherited money, he started the proverbial "spending like a drunken sailor."

Actually, I do trust her with this, at least for now.  She has, at times, made impulse purchases.  I don't know of a single person who hasn't.  BUT - she is aware of this issue, and she is very conscious right now of that.  SO for the short term, I think this is okay. 

Again, my main worry here is that this will increase her obsession with money.  We actually had a good conversation about this last night, and I think we were on the same page about these:

- She and I both don't want a situation where one is having to question the others' spending.  This works both ways, as I also don't want her questioning my spending.

- She doesn't want to feel like she has nothing.  She wants some independence.

- we talked about eventually having a joint account and each having our own as well.   I think we were both decided that would be ideal, but for right now working out the details of how to contribute fairly to it, considering she is not working (disability money only), our contributions would be definitely disproportionate.  We would also have to work out what the joint account is to be used for.

- we have discussed in the past, and again last night that having shared credit accounts would be a bad decision from a simple credit rating standpoint, and could get in the way of future purchases.

Ultimately, the joint account with each having separate checking accounts will probably be the way to go.  Just a matter of working out details.  First, though, is deciding if this r/s is even worth it at this point.  Today I am "more white" than I was yesterday, but she is still quite angry. 

 

Good thinking max!

As long as... .you never save her from impulses... .  So... .if she blows the joint account and her own money.  Oh well.  It's disability... .she will get more at start of next month.

Don't worry about disproportionate... .just set a ratio and stick with it.  Her first... .not her words... .but her actions.  You actually verify money is there... .then put in the appropriate "match".

Thoughts?

 

Make sure there is no joint overdraft protection... .if the money is out... .a check bounces.