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I read something recently by a member named Jaybird.  As she described the end of her r/s she also addressed the struggle that many of us have with low self esteem after these r/s's end. The following quote really stood out to me:

"Fortunately by then [i.e. by the time her r/s ended] my self-esteem and sense of self worth was well established and rooted in God's perception of me."

In other words (unlike most of us) her self esteem didn't suffer a devastating blow at the end of her r/s with her ex because she didn't receive validation of her self worth from him in the first place - she instead received it within the context of her r/s to God.

I'm going to refrain from posting my faith experiences for now, but her post made me think about how far I've wandered from my own faith, and how I think that my healing may lie in that direction.

So I'd like to know:  if you consider yourself a Christian, how did your faith guide your process of detachment and forgiveness?

My faith made me realize I HAD to file for divorce and move on. Sure it hurt but it was no longer wether I wanted to or not because she had cheated and furthermore was making no effert in trying to rectify anything so to make a point and let the world, my kids, my family and friends know I can not tolerate her treatment of me, I had to

It became a mandate if you will.

It was the only right thing at that point, in Gods eyes. At least from my perspective

I am not there- but I am on the same journey to realizing that my faith needs to help guide this process. Being with my BPD, my faith jumped ship. Me general beliefs were there, but I certainly wasn't practicing, praying, or living my faith other than turning the other cheek in my r/s with my BPD. I lost most of my faith... .and I know I lost it for the BPD, which was a huge    to me that i ignored. Now that I spent time out, I have recalled repressed memories where he raged at me for being a Christian... .and that's when I stuffed my beliefs deep inside... .so deep that not even I knew they were there anymore. Ugh, this makes me cry.

I have to be honest: it didn't. The entire episode made me angry with God. After a long and devastating period of being alone AND suffering at the hands of a poor economy, I had finally found both solid footing financially and had a relationship with my (didn't know at the time) BPD fiance'. I had invested 2 1/2 years into the relationship and things were going so well that I can recall thanking God profusely when I went to mass and in general. She was not a classic BPD (she was a waif) so there was no fighting, cheating, lying or any of the rest that defines most BPD relationships. One day I went on business trip and without any warning at all, she moved out of my house (after moving in only 3 weeks earlier). That was 5 months ago; the last thing that I ever said to her was 'good night, I love you' the evening before she disappeared.

I am 48 years old and it is not easy for people in my age bracket to date. It took me months if not years to come across HER and I am back in the same place that I was before meeting her now hurt, confused and suspicious about the next one as a default. I TRULY felt that God had intended for us to be together and even felt that, despite the severity of the last recycle, that he had chosen me for the challenge of 'her'. It became clear that this was not His plan as the days turned into weeks an months... .where my attempts to contact her were returned by threats from attorneys and calls from the police.

There was no positive aspect to this as sometimes is the case within the framework of faith when it comes to pain and tragedy. Everyone suffered: she and her son and me and my daughter; her family and friends and mine. I cannot help but to feel that God had given me a gift and then, without any warning tore it from my heart and soul in the way that was punitive and not causal (I can see if we were fighting, of if there was some infidelity or such, but there was nothing like that at all).

I have to be honest: I find it much to my surprise that I still go to mass or even believe in (benevolent) God at all.

Yes... .:'(

But I think there's a way back and I'd like to find it.

I understand and can empathize with the devastation you feel.

If there really is a "benevolent God" and if the following quote is true:

"We cannot bear a pointless torment, but we can endure great pain if we believe that it's purposeful." -Andrew Solomon

then the question becomes, how do we make the suffering that we've endured meaningful?  I can't see how to do that outside of examining what has given me the most meaning in my life: my relationship with God. And I've definitely lost my way in that r/s.

For a long time I stayed in a r/s with my ex for the sake of my SD15; this single fact alone has comforted me. I still don't regret that I chose to suffer rather than send her off to live with an unstable mother during what were important and vulnerable years of her growing up. (Before I was involved with her mother my SD experienced a chaotic life - including living with my ex's physically violent partner. I have no doubt that the chaos would have resumed had I thrown her mother out for cheating when my SD was 15).

This single fact has helped me finding meaning in my suffering... .but it is not enough.  If I believe in a benevolent God, then I need to come to understand how and why this r/s was important for me as well. Important for my SD... .yes.  But when I think about myself the pain and suffering feels unnecessary and pointless.

But I'm pretty sure it's not.

I think of Christ at the very end of his life. All of his life work seemed to have come to nothing... .he was disgraced, battered... .dying.  In his pain he cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Feeling completely abandoned and broken.  But still calling out to God.  Still looking for answers. And still trusting God when the answers weren't apparent to him.

It always puzzled me why Christ thought that he was forsaken when the prophecies clearly spelled out the meaning for his suffering and death as he saved mankind.

As for me, I have looked at the entire relationship through the prism of God and faith. I looked in vain to find any sort of meaning in the entire sordid mess. Had it been a typical acrimonious affair, I would have believed that there might have been something instructive. Had it even been the case that I learned that she was a BPD and I was chosen to be a bulwark to her in an attempt to recover, I would have accepted this as well (and still would WITH conditions). But none of this was true or came to fruition.

My conclusion that there was nothing instructive or beneficial from the relationship, only that there was a happy union between two people and it was destroyed to the immediate detriment of 4 people. To me, it seemed exclusively punitive; why would God bless someone with happiness and then rip it away without notice or warning (there was no arguing or disagreement in my relationship... .we were very happy until one day, she disappeared while I was away and I have not spoken withe her since). I an see this no other way other than I am being punished for something of which I have no idea... .

As much as I have looked at this and I have had plenty of time to do so, there was nothing positive that came from it. EVERYONE connected to this lost.

Perhaps it's because he was also human, and in the face of intense pain and suffering ALL humans can feel abandoned by God.


I'm wondering why you think can it only be instructive if it was acrimonious?


I understand this was your perception, but it can't be true... .can it?  She must have been unhappy in ways that you weren't aware of.

I was involved with a waif for 8 years.  We had our difficulties, but the first four years were good; the last four were hell.  What shocked me the most was learning towards the end of our r/s that she had complaints that reached back the the very beginning of our r/s. Things I wasn't aware of. Things she appeared to be keeping a tally of.  Even though she appeared pretty happy; even though she came across as the sweetest, gentlest, kindest, most forgiving woman you could ever hope to meet.


Why are you blaming her leaving on God?  She chose to leave, correct?... .


That's a sad "meaning" to assign to your story.

"This single fact has helped me finding meaning in my suffering... .but it is not enough.  If I believe in a benevolent God, then I need to come to understand how and why this r/s was important for me as well. Important for my SD... .yes.  But when I think about myself the pain and suffering feels unnecessary and pointless.

But I'm pretty sure it's not.

I think of Christ at the very end of his life. All of his life work seemed to have come to nothing... .he was disgraced, battered... .dying.  In his pain he cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Feeling completely abandoned and broken.  But still calling out to God.  Still looking for answers. And still trusting God when the answers weren't apparent to him."

+++++++++

oh this makes me cry so hard... .and I am not the one nailed to a cross... .but i do feel like i was stabbed through the heart. If only this pain would last hours culminating in death and resurrection. I suppose in a way this is a death. Death of my definition of love. Death of my understanding of unconditional love. Maybe resurrection will be a new definition of love.

"It always puzzled me why Christ thought that he was forsaken when the prophecies clearly spelled out the meaning for his suffering and death as he saved mankind."--- it was to fulfill the old testament prophesies. 

I think part of where my Christian faith has gotten me caught up in unhealthy relationships is in "Love thy neighbor". I tried so hard to love myBPD as I would want someone to love me or as I love myself. I wouldn't want to be abandoned. I wouldn't want to be left behind with NC only to make the same mistakes in a different r/s and not grow.

-had it been acrimonious, the struggle for peace might have been a test... .dunno, thats one possibility though I realize perhaps not the most logical. The way that mine went done, there was nothing redeeming in the aftermath.

-I can only go by what she told me... .she hardly ever complained and when she did, I took her very seriously. Sure, there might have been things that she was not telling me like yours but I have nothing to go on. Her departure, I am convinced as she is a BPD, was not due to discontent but rather by her fear of abandonment. Granted there were triggers, but as we all have come to know, there was little or nothing that we had done as non's to result in their actions.

-I am not blaming her leaving on God, I am blaming our MEETING on God. God was not altogether without influence with her departure either... .

-define 'sad meaning'... .it seems that you might condemning my interpretation as it relates to God. That being the case, I invite you to provide me with the 'positive lesson' that I am missing ... .that thing that will 'make me stronger' because I have lived this thing 24 x 7 for 5 months and I don't see it anywhere. Not even a sliver. There is nothing her but pain... .suffering... .confusion... .hurt... .an scars for all of us: her, me, my daughter and her son. We all lost and will feel the effects from for the remainder of our lives. Tell me how this is not punishment.

Notwithstanding, we not the messiah nor was there anything that was prophesied about our suffering and the inherent need for it to fulfill the scriptures. We are mere mortals and the suffering WAS/IS pointless.

As you mention cloudten, I would have been much better off in the aftermath of this r/s if I didn't make the sacrifices for her within the context of my Christian responsibility to treat people the way that Christ had instructed. I made sacrifices (and was happy to do so) and kept my own needs in check in order to maintain peace and harmony with the r/s. I have no other recourse but to tell myself, 'Look what THAT got you!'. In fact, my take away in this respect is 'just do like everyone else and take... .NEVER give back... .NEVER make any sacrifices... .when its all said and done and you are no longer being satisfied in the way that fulfills your needs, dump her like one would the trash'. Its difficult for me to think otherwise. 

I think it is a death of sorts.  I also think a "resurrection" is possible if we don't get lost in anger and bitterness, and if the suffering can lead us back to God. Sometimes I've voluntarily gone down on my knees to pray, but sometimes I've been driven to my knees as well... .this experience certainly qualifies as one of those times.

As for the "love thy neighbor"... .I think you have to be careful with that one.  I can't say that I "loved my ex" selflessly... .there was a lot I hoped to receive in return.  While I'm a lot like you (want someone to love me, wouldn't want to be abandoned), I also recognize that I was giving what (in a healthy r/s) I would have received in return.  I'm not sure that's what Jesus was referring to.

I think it is important to remember that God works all things for the greater good. We do not usually understand why we are going through it when we are in it. But reflecting backwards, often years later, we can see how God worked such pain in our lives for good.  This is where our FAITH and our TRUST in HIM comes into play.  We don't know why. We can pound our feet and kick and scream (much like our BPDs) and ask "WHY WHY WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?", but We may never know until we are in God's presence at the beginning of our new life.  

God works all things for the greater good. God makes beautiful things out of the ashes in this lifetime. I believe this. I have witnessed it in my own life.

As Christians, we have to remember that our reward is not on this Earth- it is in Heaven.  Someday, we will hear "well done my good and faithful servant!"

I choose to trust no human on this earth. But I chose to trust God. I know that there is a reason he brought this person into my life. I know that he did it not only for the BPD, but he also did it for me. I do not know why. It almost doesn't matter why anymore. What matters is that I trust God now... .that I trust that he will heal me... .that I trust that he works this whole mess for the greater good. I have to trust that he will bring my BPD to Christ- as I could not. I will pray for my BPD even though I often do not feel he deserves it.

My burden may be heavy- but His is light. God knows how heavy it is. He is using this burden to help guide you to him so he can help you. I am trying to give Him the burden. I pray for it every day. And I pray for Him to lighten your burden as well.

I've been thinking about this today:

"For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong." (1 Peter 3:17)


And now you feel cheated and deeply angry because it didn't work out to your benefit.  I understand.  :'(


That is not correct. You can choose to see it another way... .perhaps that is something you can ask for in prayer.

It is always possible for someone to challenge a statement or such by saying, 'You know; there IS another possibility". But I have always found that its nothing more than a statement when it is not accompanied by the other possibility.

lets face it: there is none. I have had a LOT of time to think about it.

JRT, you sound hopeless. Do you feel hopeless?

There is that saying- "let go and let God"... .hopelessness means letting go and letting God handle it. We don't know why she left you. God knows, and He wants you to trust Him in his infinite wisdom. Yes it sucks. It really sucks. You cannot change what happened. You cannot make her come back to you. 

I think you need to change the way you are looking at her. You have her on a pedestal she does not deserve to be on. She abandoned you without warning. That is not love. That is NOT a blessing. She was not a blessing to you, even if she seemed like she was, she just wasn't. The aftermath is not a blessing. She was the worst thing to happen to you. She was a tazmanian devil. She came in, whirled up your life in a bunch of chaos, and exited leaving you with the fallout. You have to trust God with the fallout- you can not clean it up on your own. You cannot understand it on your own.

I pray that God gives you wisdom, clarity, peace and understanding. I pray that God heals your heart and extends his compassion on all of you involved. God Bless, and I mean ACTUALLY bless you.

Read the poem Footprints... .and let Christ carry you.

I do NOT feel hopeless... .I feel Godless right now... .how can I ask God to carry me when it looks as if her dropped me in the sand AFTER he picked me up and carried me? Yes she WAS like a Tasmanian devil that did not deserve my love, affection and sacrifice... .why did God allow this in the first place? If he knew that this was going to harm all of us in the first place, WHY (with me as a devout and good man) did he allow it to continue?

Maybe there is a reason that me, or you both cannot discern at this time. But I hope that you both can see that even if there is a reason, it is difficult to see at this point. And in the absence of this reason, it sure seems like damnation.

My only analogy on this right now is this:

You know when someone breaks a bone and they didn't know they broke it? They might go several weeks, and it still hurts, so they decide to have a doctor look at it? The doctor says "Yes you broke it. But it healed in the wrong position. We have to go back in and re-break it in surgery- and then put a plate in so it heals back together correctly. You will forever have the plate."

THAT is US right now. We didn't trust the doctor with our injury the first time. (it could have been a previous relationship, it could have been a relationship with our parents... .something in the past we didn't address correctly and we didn't trust God with it.) So now we have to go to the doctor. He's got to rebreak us, put a plate in... .so we will never forget. It will always be with us. We will always have the scar to reference.  THAT is why God allowed this to happen. The rebreaking is the BPD relationship. He allowed that to happen so we could have the plate installed and be healed.

the intersection of what happened to me and Christianity is almost too much for me to handle. what's below is only one part of the whole sorry business. i've made the quote anonymous, b/c i don't want to personalize things, it's a sentiment i've read in many places.


CCC 1756:


www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1756.htm

(i'd be concerned with the adultery.) i take from this, and fully embrace, that not everything is part of god's plan. what my wife did shows not the mystery of god's working, but that free will can lead anyone into a choice to work against god's plan. there may be a lesson for me in responding to this situation, but god is not the author of my wife's deceit, infidelity and sadism.

I don't see this in my case... .I was a very healthy party to this relationship and I say that through the prism of everything that I have read and studied here and elsewhere.

Again, I have looked at this from all angles: there was nothing good about it. As Maxen points out, maybe this was not according to God's plan... .it might be the better explanation. Hence, if it WERE according to His plan, I have problem with Him and His plan.

So true- God is not the author of your wife's deceit. He did not cause her to do it. He didn't WANT her to do it. I do not even believe that He caused her to have the disease. He knowingly and willingly allowed her to have the disease.  He allowed her to enter and affect your life knowing exactly the outcome it would cause. He knew you would be hurt. He knew I would be hurt. He knew that our BPDs would be hurt. And, yes, He allowed it.  Tell God that you're mad. Tell Him you are angry with him for allowing this person in your life. God already knows what is in your heart, but if it would make you feel better- then tell him you're angry. I think it's okay to be angry with God.

Free will is the consequence of original sin. Thanks Adam and Eve. It is the consequence of their choice to allow satan in our lives. Yes, God can prevent it. He does EVERY DAY. Everyday He prevents murder, rape, car accidents, disease. Why He allowed it to happen to you, only He knows. But He wants this to turn you to Him, that's why He allowed it. He will work this for the greater good. It is not your job to know why. Like I said, it doesn't matter why. It's over and done with. It's your job now to turn to God because you cannot clean it up on your own.

But no, God did not cause your wife to be unfaithful. Just as God didn't cause me to lie yesterday... .or cheat years ago. Those were my choices. We are judged by those choices when we die our earthly death if we haven't repented.

I was brought up in a Catholic environment and went to church pretty much every Sunday as a child. It was like clockwork.

I had a very loving and nurturing childhood. Without even knowing it at the  time, my childhood was amazing as I look back at it.

My relationship with my wife and growth of my family with children was wonderful but something was missing and that was going to church with my wife and kids. I tried making it a part of our lives by going to church but it simply didn't seem to work. My wife never went. She did not have the same childhood as me. Her past had involved dysfunctional nutty parents. And it still does.

Anyways, fast forward: I would go to church by myself and take the toddlers/kids with me, but this fizzled out.  My son from time to time is interested in Jesus and how he died, etc.  Every Easter when there are shows on tv of Christ and his life, he will watch and be amazed. I watch with him.

I think of my relationship with my (ex) wife as a test from God.  He gave me a problem and I was to see how I faired. This is how I see my whole experience with BPD and its effects. 

I would like to think of a miracle happening meaning that Jesus would place his two hands on my troubled (ex) wife's head and say a few words and she would be cured of her anxiety and turmoil within her. Then the chaos and pain of BPD would be no more. 

but i'm not.


but i'm not sure he did. i have issues with what the full range of free will is, and i haven't worked them out.

If I had it to give to you I promise I would... .but it's not mine to give.  I think it's yours to find in the context of your r/s with God.

I am sad for you... .and am challenging you a bit, because if you wholeheartedly believe that it is punishment, then you will always perceive it as a "punishment" - quite possibly until the day you die.  Even if there is another way to see it; even if God himself were to reveal another way to see it; you wouldn't be able to see it because you've settled upon (and embraced) the idea that the entire experience was some sort of punishment - both for you and those you love.

Let me ask you this:  what do you think you've done that deserves such punishment?  In all of the pain I've experienced over the past four years, it has never once occurred to me to consider it a punishment from God.  I wonder what makes you think that it is.

@CloudTen

Sure... .Your statement makes a lot of sense... .but there is a limit to what we can tell one another in this venue... .if this were one incident in my life, I would write it off as you suggest... .but it is not... .the suffering seems to be a recurring them in my life... .I am mad at God not just because he allows these things to happen, but more because I try to live as piously as I can and remain faithful when those around me have long given up.

@dude... .I hear ya... .I thought mine was a test as well... .I even accepted that God had sent her to me because I was the only one that could help her... .well; I can tell you how far that went.

There is no reason... .its punishment... .sometimes it's just a duck.

I have zero idea why I would be punished, and have considered this many times. I had a GF who had a VERY early term abortion when I was in college... .I cheat on my taxes... .I watch porn... .I swear too much... .I come late to mass... .seriously: I have given all of these and other thoughts serious scrutiny. 

YES! The only thing we can decide upon is our RESPONSE. Do we have faith, or do we lose our faith?  That is the only choice we have.

My faith in God through Christ actually became REAL through the pain, suffering and grief of finding out my 18 Yr. Marriage was gone in an instance. My uBPDxw is a WAIF and hide her true self from me until she slipped up on Fathers day 2013 and was finally caught in her web of lies. My world as I knew ended that fateful day. But little did I know my new life that would rise out of the ashes would be much better than what I had known before.

Instead of blaming God and lashing out at him I chose to seek his presence in my life. My heart and soul was completely broken open and I only had him to turn to and he ministered to me. I spent countless days and nights crying and praying to God to help me just let it all go and trust in him. For the first time in my life I started to feel God's presence in my life and I could feel him reassuring me that everything would be OK. I considerered myself a Christian since I said the sinners prayer when I was 20yrs old (Now 50). I think I was intelectually a Christian but didn't have that personal relationship with God through his son. Now in my recovery from this unexpected abandonment I found that personal relationship with out Lord and Savior. It was an awesome experience. The pain and anguish of my loss didn't immediately go away as I needed to process all of those feelings but over a years time I felt my spirit being lifted and my pain being lessened.

The following verses helped me tremendously during my recovery:

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. My Favorite verse. Many people misinterpret this to mean that God causes bad things to happen which is not the case. Rather I take it to mean that if we seek him even admist our pain that he will see us through and will bring good things out if it. Leamonade out of Leamons if you will! God didn't want my marriage to fall apart but he will still bless me when I seek his will. Some people are asking why God let bad things happen. Humans are unique and are created with free will. We are not robots and God does not make us do things. All of us are hurt by others who are using there free will. Unfortunately some people don't care if their free will hurt others. Some humans are selfish that way! My life is so much btter now and I am such a better man now than I ever was at any point in my life simply because I chose to let go and give things up that are out of my control. All I can control is my actions. I also referred to 1Peter 5:6-7 a lot which tells us to humble ourselves before God and he will lift us up at the appropriate time. And it goes on to say to cast ALL your ANXIETIES on him because he cares for you. I had TONS of anxieties and I asked him to take all of them from me.

Now what about forgiving my uBPDxw who has hurt me greatly with her betrayal and continues to hurt me with her actions towards me and our sons?

The following verses remind me of how I am to go about this. EASIER SAID THAN DONE AT TIMES:

Thessalonians 5:15/Rom12:12-21/Psalms4:2-4

They basically talk about not repaying evil for evil but try to do good to each other and in doing so it is like heaping buring coals on the heads of those who have hurt you. When I don't act out in anger but instead act in a loving Christ like fasion the guilt that is placed back on my uBPDxw might actually do her some good in seeking help for herself. If I lash out at her in Anger it just plays into her lies and painting me black and keeps her in denial. By not seeking revenge we don't let hatred and bitterness take root and well up in us. All of this doesn't mean we accept their actions, forgiveness more about us. I heard it said that being angry and filled with hate for someone is like drinking poison and expecting the person we hate to die! Again dealing with anger is still easier said than done sometimes.  :)

One gift I can thank my uBPDxw for is my newfound faith in God through Christ. If I didn't go through the pain of her betrayal I wouldn't have the faith I have now.

Awesome Topic!

MWC... .*)

Thank you so much for jumping into the fray!  :)  I was hoping that someone who was actually a little further along in their healing - and embraced their r/s with God to do so - would start weighing in!


That ^ is beautiful, and also illustrates another important point:  that while the hurtful actions that people engage in are not part of 'God's plan,' it doesn't preclude the possibility that the suffering that arises from these hurtful actions can be used by God to transform us into more whole, healed and loving people.  But we are not puppets; we have to make a choice: we can turn away from God in our anger or we can turn towards him in our pain.  The choice is ours.


I would like to be able to say that down the road... .

Or TEST our faith... .mine now, is being put to the test.

Yes... .

You said something earlier:


It seems that you believe that suffering is aberrant... .it's not, you know. It's part of the human condition. If there's any proof that living a pious life does not exclude you from the experience of suffering, it should be Christ's example.

Can you explain further?

This more academic but then; why bother? Doesn't seem to be anything beneficial to living as a Christian if suffering is perpetual. (though I don't believe that suffering IS perpetual)

If you have become a Christian in order to escape suffering you will be sorely disappointed... .as you appear to be.

You could throw it all to the wind and simply become a hedonist... .but you won't escape suffering in that scenario either.

For me, the "benefit" of being a Christian was the sense peace I found in my r/s with God.  It is no coincidence that, as I drifted away from God and into my relationship with a BPDgf (long story, perhaps a future post) that I lost my peace as well.

"“The prayer of faith is not a demand that we place on God. It is not a presumption of a granted request. The authentic prayer of faith is one that models Jesus' prayer. It is always uttered in a spirit of subordination. In all our prayers, we must let God be God. No one tells the Father what to do, not even the Son. Prayers are always to be requests made in humility and submission to the Father's will.”

― R.C. Sproul, Surprised by Suffering"

“Let me implore the reader to try to believe, if only for a moment, that God, who made these deserving people, may really be right when He thinks that their modest prosperity and the happiness of their children are not enough to make them blessed: that all this must fall from them in the end, and if they have not learned to know Him they will be wretched. And therefore He troubles them, warning them in advance of an insufficiency that one day they will have to discover. The life to themselves and their families stands between them and the recognition of their need; He makes that life less sweet to them.

If God were proud He would hardly have us on such terms: but He is not proud, He stoops to conquer, He will have us even though we have shown that we prefer everything else to Him, and come to Him because there is 'nothing better' now to be had.”

― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

:'(

Remember: it was academic. I have remained a Christian for various other reasons (though this situation is greatly testing my faith).

But even if one were to become a hedon and still were to suffer, there is no promise or illusion that there will not be suffering - this is the key. Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life. In the absence of that promise, there doesn't seem to be a point does there? Its like running on a treadmill and never arriving at the desired destination.

JRT,

I’m not a Christian, and I'm probably taking the thread off track, but I’m going to weigh in regarding your quote above.

 

Shouldn’t living the good and moral life (Christian or otherwise) be lived for its inherent value?  At least that would be the point for me.  Last week you were telling us your decision to do the right thing in regards to returning your ex’s belongings was (to paraphrase) motivated by the fact that you wanted to be able to sleep at night, knowing you were living by a certain code of moral principles.  Were there other motives at play besides this?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that "Christianity alludes to an end to suffering if not all-out promises it explicitly by living a Christlike life." I've never been under that impression.  Christ, Paul... .both suffered tremendously. There is a "gospel of prosperity" that some pastors preach, but I've always thought it to be a false gospel.  Any quick search of an online bible will reveal the multitude of passages about bearing up under - and maintaining your faith - through suffering.

We're kind of dancing around the issue of Theodicy (http://www3.dbu.edu/mitchell/theodicy.htm) (why does God allow suffering, and why does evil exist), but it's hard to delve into that here without getting into hard core theological discussions, and then far away from PDs.

Paul likens the Christian life to running a race with an eye on the prize: salvation, and the afterlife where there will be no suffering.

In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that God causes rain to fall on the just and unjust alike; so, too, the sun shines thusly on us all.

For myself, I know that I unequally yoked myself with a non-Christian (which is why her sudden adherence to Christianity is so confusing... .but I think that has a lot to do with mirroring my replacement. Ultimately, I can't know this). That is not to say that divorce and the things outside of "The Church" do not also exist within the church. I am speaking about the body of believers. The latter part of the New Testament has pretty harsh letters towards the early churches and their misbehaviors, some of which were pretty bad.

So my conclusion is, "how did I think it could have turned out any other way after a time?" Our value systems were very different. I think they still are. She thanks God for both me and also her affair partner, now fiancée. He's odd, and "God Is Love" is his mantra. He quotes spiritual things and Bible verses. I asked my Christian therapist, "do you really think that he is a blessing, and that this whole thing is from God?" He shook his head, "no." I think it may be in a sense, but not in the way either of them think.

Leaving aside God's ultimate dispensation and authority over creation, I think it's the natural consequence of my free will, my free will to make poor choices. I knew, but then I didn't. But I did. My prayer has been, as have my requests to people in my church (I finally started going again just as my r/s was spiraling... .imagine that), is for our kids. Also for me to raise them properly. What they do with that will turn out to be based upon their free wills later.

Where my heart goes out to are those who are stuck in abusive marriages where religion and twisted theology is used against them.

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The question is academic... .this means that it doesn't necessarily represent what I feel or reality at all. Its argumentative ins a scholarly sense.

Yes, those things I said last weeks still stand.

It's clear that we have two separate understandings.

Yes.

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