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Someone invited me to attend a Super Bowl football event for guys at a community facility in my ex-girlfriends neighborhood.  I happened to run into her 15 year old son at this same event, so I pleasantly greeted him.  He and I had a great relationship together.  Shortly thereafter, I see him pointing me out to the leader of the facility, whom I had met before around our dating relationship.  I was then approached by this same leader, being informed that my ex-girlfriend had talked to him over the phone to address her concern of feeling unsafe with me around her children.  There was never an issue of me being unsafe either around her or her children ever, so this is completely unwarranted.  I actually used to drive her children around in a vehicle by myself, which included her 18 year old daughter.  This same leader banned me to not return to his community facility in the future, as my ex-girlfriend and children are involved there.  I agreed to comply and left.  

The following day I receive a phone call from the police telling me that they were calling on behalf of my ex-girlfriend to criminally charge me with harassment.  I have never been contacted by the police before and I do not have a restraining order or criminal record either.  Making this harassment charge another extreme overreaction and a false allegation against me by her.  I have been in shock and disbelief that she would ever do this to me.  

Any advice on how I should respond/counteract on this?

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Restored2

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Re: Police Harassment Charge

« Reply #61 on: Today at 12:51:57 PM »

   

Hey swimjim.  I have previous indications and fully believe that she is steering clear of men and does not have a replacement for me.  Prayer is key in all of this stuff!  Believe it or not despite what she has done to me, I am still open for her to come back for a redo relationship with me.  First off, I would need to have a written message from her via text or email that would protect me from false allegations of harassment or otherwise.  Something that would show that she is wanting to reconnect and be with me of her own free will.  Secondly, we would be heading straight to couples therapy/counselling together.  These would be my stringent terms and nothing less.  Apparently, it is not unusual for them to reconnect to get back together even after they have pressed charges against someone.  I know this all sounds insane... .

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Re: Police Harassment Charge

« Reply #62 on: Today at 01:19:23 PM »

   

I used to think like you. Part of me still does. We have an emotional side to our brain and an intellectual side to our brain. My emotional side wants her back and I would want everything in writing and therapy also. HOWEVER, my individual therapy has taught me to focus on the intellectual side of the brain. Trust me when I state this. You would be making the biggest mistake in your life if you gave her another chance. She may get on her hands and knees and beg  for you to forgive her. If she splits you white again, it will be short lived. Each recycle has a shorter life expectancy than the one before. When she involves law enforcement and the courts, she is a dangerous person. Her mask may be persuasive, but you must trust your intellectual side and stay away. If you went back, she could claim rape or abuse of her or her child.

A drug addict has an emotional side and an intellectual side. The emotional side craves the dopamine / serotonin (chemical release)  rush from the brain. A drug addict's intellectual side focuses on a 12 step program.

She will need years of therapy and that is not a guarantee that she will get better. PLEASE DON'T GO BACK.

Hi swimjim.  I know where you are coming from and I really appreciate your advice and genuine concern for me.  You expressed a very good comparison of the emotional/intellectual side to our brain with the drug addict scenario.  Her involving the police/courts definitely does cross a dangerous line. 

I can't see how giving her another chance would be making the biggest mistake of my life.  It's not like I have been on a recycle run with her.  If so, then there could be reason for concern.  She is aware that she has baggage issues from being previously abused and has been in counselling for it.  As far as I know she is not aware that she has BPD traits though.  I know that this is a biggie to identify and would help immensely in her receiving proper treatment.  I think to not give her a chance would be the biggest mistake of my life.

My ex does this regularly and it is very stressful to have the police show up.  It is difficult because you can not get a restraining order preventing someone from calling the police on you.  It is a felony to file a false police report but the DA, here anyway, never picks up perjury cases.

keep a copy of the court order handy by the door and a video camera.  start recording before you open the door,  explain you are being harassed.  

She obviously has nothing to back up the claims she is fabricating so the police will get annoyed.  When they know they are being recorded they will mind their P's and Q's .

My local police are very aware of my ex now and they will call before they come.  Unfortunately, she simply goes to another jurisdiction and says I did something there and has them show up. 

 

And precisely why do you think we're warning you against stepping back into the dysfunction?  Because sadly... .

• Many members here have "been there, done that".  We tried and tried, over and over, and got the same (or worse) results.



• No one is quite sure who stated or wrote this originally, but there's a saying... .
  
  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and still expecting different results.
  
  So what makes you think getting back together would be different in the future?
  
  The best predictor of the future is... .the past.
  
  



• If she is not in intensive, effective and progressing therapy, she will NOT behave better.



• No court will force her to live to your requirements of therapy, counseling, reporting or whatever.  She is an adult.  Court deals with people as they are, not as you wish they would be.  You would do well to do likewise.



• About the only thing you can count on court to do is to handle the parenting of minor children over the years - and even that could very well leave you on the outside looking in as far as authority and control.



• For every account where trying again worked, there are 100 or 1000 examples where it didn't.  Even if that's a slight exaggeration, those are absolutely terrible odds on which to wager your life and future.



• Can you risk facing the police and court again?  She will likely learn from this incident and do better during the next conflicts.  (And yes there will be more.)  Since the laws, agencies and courts give at least a slight deference or preference to women, can you risk it again?

ForeverDad: I really appreciate your advice and genuine concern.  You present some very valid points to chew on.  I guess I am coming from an optimistic position of thinking that things could be for the better after bringing this all to a head with as you put it; intensive, effective and progressive therapy.

sfbayjed: Thank you for sharing.  Sounds like you are all too familiar with false allegations and the intense drama associated with it.  According to the police there is evidence to charge me.  Not knowing exactly what that could be, I can only assume that it involves some texts, emails, letters and cards.  All of which are completely not threatening and only of good intentions.  I am curious, what allegations does your ex make against you regularly? 

I would not believe anything the police say when they interview you.  They are trained to say things like that to get people to confess to things.  That could be all that is going on.

As far as going back. That is your decision obviously.  I went back over and over again and it never got better.  I actually ended up in jail for something I did not do and still went back.   

Most all of us understand why someone would want to go back.  What happens when you do is many more years go by and you are still in the crazy s**t.

Leaving was the hardest thing I ever did. It felt like being ripped in 1/2 .  I am so glad I got away though. I thank God every day that I am I am not Dead or in Prison for something I didn't do because of that woman. 

I am now poor, having to represent myself in court against her lawyer, I haven't been this happy in years.  I am getting to know myself again, the guy I was before I followed her down the Rabbit hole, and I am a pretty awesome guy.  That is something all in the money in the world could not have bought me if I stayed with the disordered one. 

Food for thought   

No matter what you do though, don't be afraid to come back here for support.  People here get it. 

sfbayjed: Thank you for sharing with your insights, advice, encouraging words and support.  It is food for thought.  I am learning that the police and their unethical tactics are not to be trusted.  Guess I'm a little naive and trusting in this department.  You sound like a pretty awesome guy just from how you present yourself.  I am curious, was it your ex or you who initiated contact to get back together again after the jail time?

I know that you want to believe that she will truly see that she mistreated you and show genuine remorse. Remember, most suspected BPD's have not been diagnosed. She may agree to go to a number of sessions but may likely stop when the going gets tough for them and they have to face their issues.They need years of therapy. Nobody here is trying to sound pessimistic with their likely outcome. As a non disordered person, we can rationalize someone getting better with therapy. However, we unfortunately can't draw the same conclusion from disordered people. I remember a previous response from your first thread. A poster explained that his friend went back to multiple recycles. In the end, he finally got her pregnant and wanted to know how to deal with  a pregnant BPD. Remember? Too many stories of recycled attempts going bad. History repeats itself. Past history is a predictor of the future.

swimjim: I would like to have her come around to realize that she mistreated me and show genuine remorse.  I don't believe that she has been officially diagnosed as having BPD, but the behavior traits are clear.  I see how are the odds are not stacked for success.  I don't want to give up on her though.

I would like him to come around and realize that I mistreated him and showed no genuine remorse. I don't believe that he has been officially labeled as codependent, but the behavior traits are clear."

Restored2, Embarrassingly enough we got back together before I went to jail.  This is what happen, Ex made accusation, recanted, moved on, ex got angry again and "switched"(you know what I mean?). She called police told them she was really telling the truth, made a different story than the first,  played victim, A few days later "switched" again said it didn't happen.  County DA was apart of county pilot program "Zero Tolerance for Domestic Violence" which dictated mandatory filing by the DA on all DV cases.

Three months later I woke up on a Summer morning with two police officers standing over me, who were kind enough to allow me to brush my teeth before cuffing me and taking me to the car and then off to the county hotel for baloney sandwiches.  

Oh yeah we had some good times, too, really good times.  That use to draw me back in.  Now I think those times would have been even more fun with someone else.  I left over 2 1/2 years ago. 

So it was like she was two different people, she would switch and I would wait and tolerate the abuse and wait for the one I liked to come back.  But the one that I liked wasn't real. It was a façade she had to create to get her hooks in enough to unleash the beast. It is hard to imagine why I stayed now. I get it though.

This might not make sense yet but 'You Can't Save Her" and "It is not your fault"    Her illness is a disorder, that disorder is to destroy her target. You are her target now.  Remorse requires Empathy. She is likely unable to empathize for others like you can and assume most people can.  

Of course I am generalizing and making assumptions when I say that. But still.

I honestly don't know at this point in My recovery if I have the strength to ignore My ex if she were to reach out to me.My success at remaining no contact is attributed to her staying focused on the current replacement. My therapist told me that the best thing that could happen for me is My ex staying happy with her current partner.

swimjim: I can totally appreciate where you are coming from.  Someone recently told me to use the intellectual part of my brain and not the emotional part of my brain.   

sfbayjed: WOW... .This is quite the incredibly intense action drama you have lived out with your ex.  Thank you for sharing the details of your story.  Makes my situation seem like Disneyland in comparison.  I'm sure you will never eat another baloney sandwich the same way again since going to the county hotel.  Your sense of humor has obviously boded well for you to maintain your sanity in all of this.  Interesting that you say "You Can't Save Her" and "It is not your fault", as I have been wanting to save her and I have been blaming myself where I see fit.  She has shown me no empathy in the breakup and aftermath.  I don't understand why she would target me to want to destroy me?

livenlearned: LOL... .Tushay.  You make a solid statement to which I have trouble to refute. 

I see what you're going through from your perspective, but something clicked for me when reading your last handful of posts. I see another perspective here, now that you are expressing your feelings about getting back together with her.

Even though you really want to get back together with her, she absolutely does not -- she's done with you. But you think of it as "she's done with me right now."

The force of her feelings right now is that she wants nothing to do with you, and you keep contacting her. It reminded me of someone I dated 15 years ago who would not stop contacting me after we broke up. He sent cards, letters, he left flowers at my door. One night we bumped into each other at the same party, he was arriving and I was leaving. He followed me home and when I didn't answer the door, he got a ladder and put it up next to my window to see if I was there. A very nice guy, but also very needy and a terrible sense of boundaries.

My friends told me to file a harassment charge against him because of his behavior. Moving to another state for my job took care of the problem, although he continued to send cards (that I never opened). I will tell you, there is nothing more exasperating than breaking up with someone only to have that person continue to bust your boundaries. I was done when the relationship was over. He could not for the life of him get that message.

I'm not saying that you deserve this harassment charge, because you don't. But if she does not want you in her life, and you don't respect that, then you might be bringing this on yourself.

Even though you don't feel that you're harassing her, she is telling you she feels harassed. You have to stop contacting her.

livenlearned: Your scenario of the "very needy and a terrible sense of boundaries" ex-boyfriend of yours that followed you home and put the ladder up next to your window after you broke up is NOT me.  I ran into my ex-girlfriends 15/16 year old son at a community football event and as a result I voluntarily left very early for home to avoid any further conflict.  The following day I received the phone call from the police threatening the harassment charge against me from her.  I have also stopped contacting her.  Two totally different scenarios to compare notes on. 

Proper closure of our relationship by her would have been resolution based.  I find it interesting that you presented as though her behavior is "normal", with no mention/consideration of BPD traits being in overreaction mode by her towards me.

Restored2, aren't you the guy who was asking this forum last November if you should "expose her" to her pastor, family and  friends so that she could get help? Has that situation morphed into this one somehow?

Katecat: I am that guy.  For clarification, I never did follow up with the letters of concern for her to her pastor, close family and friends.  This situation is a completely different with no dots to connect.

No, I'm not comparing my ex boyfriend to you -- sorry, that wasn't my point. I was writing quickly and should've read it through again to double check how it came across. My point is just that normal kind behaviors can feel like harassment when someone is done with the relationship and the other person isn't. Does that make more sense? It is not harassment to send cards or flowers, but when someone is over a relationship, especially when both sides have trouble with boundaries (which I did), then sometimes things end in abrupt ways because those are the only skills those two people have at the time.

Your ex is BPD, and so her coping skills to deal with the end of the relationship aren't healthy. She doesn't know how to deal with your letters and cards because she has limited skills in how she reacts.

Sometimes on these boards we assume that the behaviors are BPD -- which they can be. Her response seems emotionally immature and harmful to you. But her feelings are probably not that different than how "non" BPD women (albeit with limited skills) respond. When you want someone to stop contacting you, and they don't, it can feel invasive. An innocent incident gets blown out of proportion because emotionally it triggers unresolved feelings from the relationship.

A really long way to say that contacting her is not a good idea. 

Good for you! I am glad to hear it, because I was just thinking that I am grateful that I only had "ladder" type guys in my younger days.  :)

You need to be ANGRY at her for involving the police under false pretense. Just don't act on that anger. If you take a different attitude and believe that false allegations is abuse in itself. You have not fully recovered from this loss. Believe she is dangerous, stay away from her, NEVER go back to her. Treat this like a loss or death and go through the natural grieving process. Quit trying to make sense of what she has done. False police charges are a dealbreaker. You may be codependent. Focus on why you would ever entertain giving her another chance.  Focus on you. I know your pain. I am struggling also. We must look after number 1, ourselves.

swimjim: I am angry at her for involving the police under false pretense.  :)on't worry, my anger is healthy, controlled and safe.  I do see the false allegation against me as abuse from her, thank you for pointing that out.  I recognize that I have not fully recovered from this hit from her.  Her involving the police was just another compounding wound on top of the wounds that she has already inflicted upon me.  I do see her as being dangerous now.  However, I also see the value and worth in her beyond her current state.  

livenlearned:  There is absolutely nothing "normal" about fearing for the safety of her children with me and claiming harassment to the police.  Actually it doesn't make any sense to me how simple and innocent good will gestures that are not over done could be misinterpreted as harassment.  This was not a daily, weekly or monthly event for me.  For someone to think otherwise would seem to highlight some other issues to look at.  Personally, I would not take what I have done as an offense or harassment from a recent ex-girlfriend that I was dating and discussing a future marriage together, who was just trying to let me know that she still cares for me and thinks about me.  For her to not attempt to salvage us and what we had together would appear to be indifference of not caring about our relationship.  This indifference response would greatly concern me, even if I was the one that had broken up with her.  It would make me question everything about what we had together.  However you slice and dice it her response to me is cold, callous and outright horrible.

I know how you are thinking right now. I told My therapist that I thought My ex would realize she made a mistake and would come calling asking forgiveness. I would have accepted her apology with open arms and we would have had wild passionate makeup sex. She never did reach out to me and My therapist told me to feel lucky that she didn't. I retrospect, I realize that had she come back to me, I might want to have sex with her but I could never trust her again. Furthermore, it could be a setup to pull me back in court with more false allegations. Remember, they learn from mistakes they made the last time she had me in court and the judge dismissed the restraining order. She would make sure to make a restraining order stick next time. I would be a sitting duck if I ever found myself alone again. I would always be looking over My shoulder. It just is not worth it. If the restraining order would have been granted before, she would have total control over me. I could not go anywhere because she would find me and then have me arrested. She is evil and she is not able to get another chance to try to control me. Recycling me would be a trap. 

You need to start protecting yourself. If you dodge any legal problems from this woman, you should be grateful and never give her another opportunity to do this.

Swimjim: I hear where you are coming from.  I do not believe that mine is evil though.  She is operating more from her unresolved previous abuse issues to protect herself and her children from irrational fears and phobias that are unwarranted.  I have been her triggers to so much of this.  Have you thought of pressing legal charges against your ex for false allegations in order to protect yourself?

No. Right now I just want to focus on My recovery and fix My codependency. Maintaining no contact and hoping she continues to be preoccupied with her current love interest. My experience drove enough fear into me that I never plan to go back there again. Remember what ForeverDad stated: For every successful recycle, there are at least 100 unsuccessful recycles. Those are not the kind of odds I want to go up against.Food For Thought. Good luck to you.

Whether though "normal" or disordered lenses, she has deemed your behavior as harassing and filed a complaint against you. If this was not dealbreaker, what are your dealbreaker boundaries in  a relationship, BPD or not?

This is the person you want to be with.

livenlearned: This side of the person that you listed is not what I want to be with.  However, this is not the only side to them or I would never have been in a relationship with them.  The other side of them that I know is an incredible person full of positive traits.

Mike-X: I know where you are coming from.  Deal breakers for me are individually assessed according to the person.  I try to operate more from a position of forgiveness, grace and mercy in light of the offense and person.  Sometimes that could involve second and third chances.

While I think your relationship is long over and you you actually can't or won't be going back, let me respond to these comments for the benefit of others who might read this thread.


So... .is it okay to choose a life with a Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde relationship?  A life where you can be put at high legal, financial and emotional risk?


You mean you haven't already given her many chances?

Please understand, we're not berating you, the relationship is apparently over, the responses here have reflected concern that someone is listening only to one's heart when the person also needs to balance it with listening to one's head.

So many here have been where you are, for me one brush with the police was almost enough to know it was over.  After that we had protection orders from each other.  But a couple months later I did ask her if she wanted to reconcile.  Yes, I hadn't quite given up yet.  After all, she had only disrespected me by taunting me, saying I had cancer in my brain and sexual organs in front of our preschooler, saying she wore the pants, calling me a b___ and worse (she still does, along with stronger cursing) and Satan and Judas Iscariot, telling me she'd disappear with our child and I'd never see him again.  Yes, I had sensed the end was close, she would look at me sideways as though I was a child molester.  But when she realized her first child abuse allegations upon separation - that I had been at the park and let our son tip his bike and chip his elbow without a scratch or scuff - didn't go anywhere, she started making really serious allegations, ones that could have resulted in a criminal record, on registries and wearing orange jumpsuits for years.  I got the message.  I accepted I could not risk going back.

So why would someone still have a hard time accepting the very real risks?  What about a weekend in jail?  If there are children, would an investigation by children's services be a deal breaker?  What would be too much?

In our circumstances, it's realistic to say, "We would if we could... .but we can't."

I understand. And I struggle with similar feelings often (as others in this thread also have acknowledged).

Forgiveness, grace, and mercy are admirable, and you should strive to take the high road with her.  Forgiveness, grace, and mercy, however, do not have to be intertwined with second and third chances. Forgiveness, grace, and mercy do not require you even continuing in a relationship with her. You can forgive and wish her well and never interact with her again. I hope that all of my exes, both those who left me and those I left, are having wonderful lives, but I don't need to be a part of their lives.

Have you thought about showing yourself forgiveness, grace, and mercy? Would the relationship ending say anything about you to you (i.e., alter or affect your self-worth)? Would you still consider yourself a worthwhile and lovable person without her in your life? Can you imagine yourself finding love again, possible to a person not suffering with BPD? Can you accept not being able to fix her? How would you feel if she doesn't 'snap out of it' and go back to idealizing you? Would that mean that the initial love that you shared was not real? Would that mean that you were duped or some kind of fool for falling for her?

Do you think that she is lucky to have found you, because you are self-sacrificing, strong enough to sacrifice your well-being for hers, your freedom to prove your love? Does self-sacrificing make you feel better about yourself? Does she need you to be self-sacrificing for her?

Let me add that I really appreciate your honest, open responses in the thread, in fact, all of the honest, open responses. I think so much about myself and who I have been and want to be in relationships when reading through threads like this and particularly when submitting my own comments and feedback. Thanks  |iiii

Mike-X: I see where you are coming from.  That's quite the full meal deal that you placed before me.  It could take days for me to digest everything that is on my plate.  You make some extremely challenging statements/questions with holding the mirror up for me to take a good hard long look at my reflection back.  Which isn't always easy to do.  I always strive to take the high road.  I do question whether I was duped, delusional or in an illusion with my relationship to her.  Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what the answer is.  Thank you so very much for your encouraging acknowledgments on my honest and open responses in the thread.  Much appreciated.  It's great to hear of the good that comes out of such threads.  You're welcome.   |iiii  

ForeverDad: You make some very valid points to chew over.  I don't believe that you are berating me, but rather caring enough to challenge me.  For this I am grateful.  Thank you for sharing your personal brush with the police.  You gave it another go with your ex in reconciliation after you both "had protection orders from each other".  It obviously didn't work out, but at least you both got it out of your systems by giving it another chance.  This is where I am coming from and open to.  No one can predict the future and say that our relationship is "long over" and unable to be restored.  Stranger scenarios have happened with miraculous happy results.

To me, these great questions read as a complication of the sentiments directly expressed by men who have been members of this forum. Sometimes the story that goes with these statements plays out like this:

"Everyone in her life has abused her or abandoned her." "I am the one who will show her the love she needs." "There is a loving and wonderful person inside her." "Things are rough, but I am the one who can withstand this storm." "She will never find another like me; I remain strong." "I consider her children as my own." "She would be lost without me." . . . . "She has blocked my number. I can't contact her." "Why am I getting calls from a man telling me never to contact her again?" "This guy is a low-life drug abuser; what is she thinking?" "Her kids are calling me, crying. I have to help." . . . . "Why are the police knocking on my door?"

Where you are right now, I think, is a great moment just to sit back and wait and observe and ponder. Who can digest a shocking experience like this in a matter of weeks or months?

I'm really glad you have some strong and principled men speaking directly to you in this difficult time.

KateCat: There is a lot of similar stories expressed by men who have gone down this same painful path before me.  

Thank you for your quoted words of wisdom; "Where you are right now, I think, is a great moment just to sit back and wait and observe and ponder".  

Your quote is bang on; "Who can digest a shocking experience like this in a matter of weeks or months?"  I could very likely be on the year long program or longer to come up with some answers.  

I am very grateful to having some strong and principled men and women speaking directly into my life in this difficult time. They have become an incredibly supportive family to me here on bpdfamily.

Hi Restored2,

I haven't been feeling good about my responses to you, and was thinking about this today. I figured out why while I was in the cereal aisle in the supermarket today  *)  I didn't tie together very well my thoughts about "normal" behavior after a break-up, and the BPD behavior. I'll see if I can make sense (still trying to work this out in my own mind).

In my "normal" break-up with someone who, although very clingy, did not respect boundaries, I found even the slightest encroachment to be challenging. We did not have good boundaries during the relationship, and the break-up reflected that.

I guess what I was trying to say is that someone who experiences "rejection sensitivity" like pwBPD, those kinds of reactions are heightened. So, in grieving the end of the relationship, I wanted to have time and space to recover and heal, and process difficult feelings. Every time he reached out, it felt that I couldn't do that, for better or for worse. But I was able to regulate my emotions and think before I reacted. I knew I didn't want to file a harassment complaint because he was/is a good person and break-ups can bring out messy feelings and people can act in ways they would otherwise not do.

I was trying to humanize the feelings that many of us feel when we are no longer with someone we were very intimate with -- it's not just a BPD thing to feel strong feelings at the end of a relationship. What is different is the reason why the break-ups occur (fear of abandonment, splitting, projection, etc.) and the feelings = facts that pwBPD can experience, that can flip a situation so that it no longer resembles accurately what happened or is happening.

Your actions are normal. Your ex's reactions are not. But to her, her feelings are valid, just as mine were valid. I felt that my boundaries were not being respected (mostly because I didn't have any idea what boundaries were, or how to assert them in a healthy way).

Thinking this through made me realize that I did something similar in my marriage. When my ex split me black and gave me the silent treatment, at first I would do anything to try and figure out why I had done wrong. I thought of it as a hallway filled with doors and I had to figure out which one to open. One time, after a particularly long stretch of silent treatment, I drove to his work and waited for him in the parking lot where his car was parked. When he saw me there, he was furious. In a way, showing up at work while he had split me black invalidated how he felt, if that makes sense. He was using the silent treatment as a very crude mechanism to create a boundary, and I didn't know anything about validation at the time. I thought if I showed up there I could convince him that I was there for him no matter what. That just made him even more upset. 

That's why toward the end of our marriage I was the last person who could reach him, even though I was the person who most desperately wanted to reach him. Out of his fear of abandonment, he had split me black and pushed me away, and I was all-bad. To ignore him made him even more enraged. Your ex may not be able to differentiate what is feelings-based, and what is factual because of her BPD traits. She may think that anytime you surface, you are harassing her. Feelings = facts to someone who is BPD.

Could that be why your ex filed a harassment charge against you? When people with BPD start to recruit negative advocates, and convince people that you are a target of blame, and begin to engage you with the legal process, things start to become very complicated very quickly. Sometimes, with lifelong consequences. It is not necessarily a sign that what you are doing is wrong -- it's a sign that she has ratcheted up her very complex emotional dysregulation to a new level.

Bill Eddy writes, "When potential Advocates don’t believe the HCP (which is very common initially), then the HCP escalates her emotions even more, and comes up with ever more dramatic allegations against her Target." With advocates being the police or maybe even family/friends, and target being you.

I think the difference for the Family Law board is that we aren't just dealing with BPD -- we are people whose spouses were high-conflict personalities (HCPs, according to Bill Eddy). HCPs are people who, in addition to having a personality disorder, recruit a negative advocate, have a target of blame. It's not clear yet if your ex is an HCP, but she at least is showing the tell-tale signs. We can only hope that she has some advocates in her life who are validating her feelings enough that she does not feel she has to escalate the allegations against you. I was thinking about the female cop -- that behavior would be very validating to your ex. If she felt the cop believed her, it's quite possible that was an awful experience for you could actually be the thing that encourages your ex to drop the charge. Hard to say, I'm really just speculating.

Restored2, I can't tell you how awful it is to go through the legal system with someone who is BPD + high conflict. The legal system can feel designed to fan the flames of conflict. To refer to Eddy again -- in his book Splitting, he compares how the legal system is quite similar to a personality disorder. Courts are very susceptible to emotional or persuasive blaming. And we, the "targets" are out of our depth with our non-persuasive reason and rationale. Again, from Eddy:
Eddy is actually someone with a tremendous amount of compassion for pwBPD -- he was a former social worker before he became a family law mediator and attorney. He wrote Splitting to help people like us understand what we are dealing with when BPD and courts being to tangle together, and how to do what needs to be done in order to minimize conflict and hopefully get a fair and reasonable outcome.

Sorry for the long response. I just wanted to say something about where a lot of people here on Family Law might be a little different than other boards. Sometimes, major decisions about our lives were made in quick 5-10 minutes hearings. While we sat there with binders filled with evidence, our ex spouse testified for 3 minutes with no facts within a hundred miles of court. And the ruling came down in their favor, with life-long impacts for us and our kids.

It's possible that your case will not end up as badly as those who have been here before you, but it's a big gamble. It's not just about having a relationship with someone who is unstable, or who has a temper, or cheats, or confusing shifts in mood. It's that combined with the legal system, and it can be a formidable and crippling weapon in the hands of someone who is a HCP.

You're in my thoughts and prayers, especially the part where she just lets this drop. You seem like a very caring, kind and compassionate person, with strong morals and a big heart. I hope this ends ok for you.

Hi livenlearned.  Thank you so very much for your sensitive conscientious response with clarification, sincere compliments and encouraging words.  This is greatly appreciated and speaks volumes of who you are as a person of good character. 

It's good to know that somewhere between Captain Crunch and Fruit Loops in the cereal aisle that you figured it out with the light bulb going on. 

I'm not sure if I understand "rejection sensitivity" in relation to her not being the one who was rejected by me.  I also don't fully understand the whole regulate and dysregulate of emotions for a BPD person. 

I can totally relate to what you mentioned about your marriage in trying to figure out what I had done wrong.  Your hallway filled with doors analogy hits home.  I don't really understand how you showing up to your husbands place of work when he had split you black invalidated how he felt.  Why would your husband out of his fear of abandonment split you black and push you away as all bad and then to ignore him make him even more enraged?  Sounds like a no-win situation.  I don't totally get it. 

I am assuming that "HCP" is referring to high conflict personalities.  Which is confusing, because during our relationship I never saw my ex-girlfriend as being high conflict in anything.  This other side is only showing itself in her breakup.

I sure hope not to step foot into the legal court arena, as I know it is extremely deep murky waters.

I really appreciate your thoughts and prayers immensely, as well as for you taking the time to thoughtfully write what you have. 

The way I understand it, a BPD sufferer's feelings of rejections are based in... .feeling. Not fact. You might go to the store and be gone 15 minutes longer than you said you would. She feels rejected by you, or abandoned. She texts you, and you respond right away but the text doesn't arrive until an hour later. She feels rejected. In each instance, she cannot regulate her emotions, and acts impulsively, goes into a rage, becomes extremely defensive to protect the core wound, which is that she has not developed a stable sense of self. You could do everything she demands (you probably did), and even more, to the point that you are second-guessing her needs, treating her like no one else has treated her, but she will still feel sensitive to rejection because her thought system is driven by her feelings. There are no brakes to help her emotions and thoughts from churning. You cannot be trusted because you're the one she perceives has just harmed her.




Because he perceived that I had done some terrible injustice to him. He was feeling not just the hurt of whatever I had done, but the repeating hurt of whatever that wound is -- rejection from his mother, most likely. His only coping mechanism is to split people black. You are either all good or all bad. It's entirely justified in his mind as a legitimate response, a normal coping skill, when someone rejects him. There is no half this, half that during those moments, so when I was cast black and frozen out, he felt that I was invalidating his feelings, as though I just rolled right over them with no regard for how he felt.


Yes, HCP is high-conflict personalities. Not all pwBPD are high conflict. And what you say about your ex is heartening -- if she was not high-conflict in the relationship, it's possible she will not be in the split. Let's hope she was triggered in that moment and was acting out of high emotions, and does not settle into a campaign where she targets you relentlessly through the legal system.

If you look at schema therapy, that might help you understand the "modes" of angry child, lonely child, punitive parent, detached protector, etc. that your ex may have cycled through. The intense rejection sensitivity can trigger these modes. There's a good article about schema therapy (https://sites.google.com/site/cognitivetherapycenterofli/self-help-materials/borderline-personality-disorder) here.

Hi livednlearned.  Thank you for your follow-up detailed response with article link about schema therapy.  This article is very informative for me to put in perspective for how she may have cycled through these modes. 

So once again, for a BPD person it is pretty much all summed up as feeling=facts.  What a messed up way of thinking this is! 

Interesting perspective on your husband splitting you black with feeling the repeating hurt from the wounds of his past.  I take it that this splitting someone black could be even more intensified for someone who has been previously sexually abused on top of physical, emotional and mental abuse, making them extremely sensitive to all sorts of physical and emotional triggers.  Is this an accurate statement?

   

I believe so. My ex's formative years are a bit fuzzy to me, but I believe his mother (bipolar, possibly BPD) had some kind of psychotic break or post-partum depression following N/BPDx's birth. She was hospitalized, and it sounds like nuns (?) took care of N/BPDx in some kind of institution for the first year of his life. His father sent the older sister to live with relatives. I have to imagine, reading about attachment theory, that being separated from your mother at birth must have had a profound impact on his development, especially if the caregivers had a lot of children to care for.

N/BPDx also had a visceral hatred of the Catholic church that was so emotionally charged he would barely tolerate the celebration of Christmas. It was the most difficult challenge we had, other than the obvious BPD problems. It broke my heart to not be able to go to church with S13. I look back now and realize that most of the emotions N/BPDx had about the Catholic church had to do with pedophilia. He claimed two of his altar boy friends were sexually molested. But it was so strange how it came up -- at first it was his cousin, then it was a friend. When I asked if there were actually two kids molested by the same priest, he got angry at me for challenging him. I was just trying to figure out if there was more than one, which is how he initially told the story. I suspect it could've been N/BPDx who was molested, and he would forget which kid he used as the proxy victim when he was telling the story to me. The whole family left the church, which makes me wonder if they knew, but instead of bringing it to attention, they just left, and buried the shame.  

There's no way to know, but I don't know how else to explain the behavior that just came out of left field. And even though the emotional logic is not the same as factual logic, there is a pattern there. I wish I knew more about validation when we were together. I really had no clue, and it wasn't until the relationship was over that I learned about it. It's possible it was too late anyway, but still. I can't help but wonder. I'm happier now, and it would've been a challenge to raise a child with him. I trust that this is what was meant to happen, as baffling as it has been.

One thing, though.


I don't know. I mean, yes -- in excess. But when I really pay attention to how I think, and where my thoughts come from, I've noticed how sometimes I will think something and it is based on some floating thought that came out of... .where? Often the past, or sometimes a projection into the future. I can be thinking about a conversation with my boss a few days earlier while driving in the car, and then next thing I know I'm muttering under my breath, still irritated. Emotions play a role in shaping who we are, and our stability as a person, how we interact in the world. We tend to treat emotions as something that creates problems, and it certainly feels that way when you're in a relationship with someone who is BPD. But the more I heal, the more I realize that the problem is when we don't pay attention to feelings, like they're somehow not real. In ourselves, just as much as in pwBPD. This isn't to say that validation cures everything, but it's amazing how powerful it is. It's changed my life.  :)

I too wish that I had of known all about this BPD stuff while I was still in the relationship, or better yet, before I even stepped foot into the relationship.  I was totally clued out about what BPD was.  Either way, you present as being extremely insightful.

Emotions are flags that should never be ignored.  Validation is not the cure for everything, but I can see where it is powerful.

R2, take a look at this from a thread on object constancy (the whole thread is good):


For a pwBPD, not only do feelings=facts, but love=need. My Ex realized the latter to a certain extent, by what I found in one of her journals,"I just want to run back into his arms, but that would be out of need, not love." And, "Turkish is everything a woman could want in a man, but I just can't love him." She had, of course, found a new "love" by then, but what she missed is that she ran to him out of her version of love: need. This, of course, was a mirror for me to look into why I wanted to fix the r/s, the two little kids we have aside.

I think a lot of us here try to get back to that point of being needed by our pwBPD. Due to being split, however, they've moved on (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=140819.0), recycles notwithstanding, and people only talk about a recycles after the r/s is done. Are we addicted to being in loaded relationships, or do we not know any better?

Hi Turkish.  Thank you for your sharing with the thread links.  Very insightful material.

What a sad reflection on the thinking of your ex from what she wrote in her journal.  I don't really understand how she could have the desire "to just want to run back into" your "arms, but that would be out of need, not love" and say that "she just can't love" you.  This doesn't make sense to me.  I don't think I put together that love = need for a BPD person.  In other words, they only love out of need to be loved themselves?

I understood "object constancy" to refer to someone (object) having a consistent track record of character, reputation, trustworthiness, etc.  Is this not the case?

   

I would say that is values constancy. In psychological terms, it's what's talked about in the thread.

As for love vs. need, or a discussion of what love is, that's a recurring topic here. If you want to learn more about what you are dealing with here, take a look at some of the topics marked with the black "I" on the Questions and BPD Resources (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=45.0) page. Most (all?) of us went into these relationships eyes wide shut. The fact that there is a legal board here is a testament to the wreckage that some of these relationships can cause due to the disorder. We play a part, too. Do you remember the movie War Games? Sometimes the winning move is not to play. If you do choose so, then learn as much as you can, if not for whatever is going on now, but for future relationships.

Thank you for your words of wisdom and the link referrals, Turkish.  It is outright scary the fact that there is a legal board as a testament to the wreckage that BPD relationships can cause.  They can be like wrecking balls in our lives!  I can see how not playing could be the winning move in some instances... .