BPDFamily.com

Which is harder to deal with?  When W was mad at others and painting others black, I used to think "glad it's not me!"  But today I sat at work, listening to her rant on the phone twice about her dad.  Just a bunch of curse words, dysregulation, and vitriol directed at him.  And afterwards, I just feel emotionally DRAINED.  Just as bad as if she was mad at me. 

I'm trying to follow what is going on between her and her dad.  I can't see anything specifically right now that he has done to upset her to the level I see from her.  Mainly just not apologizing for something, and being rather mechanical in his communication.  Yes, that's frustrating and hurtful, but the other side of the coin is her saying that she does not want to hear from him and that she is "done."  I get the feeling that this goes back years and is very deep, and right now she is reading something into his words that I am missing. 

I'm not sure what to do here.  I've made a personal pledge to try and stay present when there is no abuse directed at me.  But man, just staying present while she goes off on someone else is nearly just as bad.  If I let her rant, she gets it out of her system, and I feel like crap.  But if I don't stay present, she is then mad at me, and takes much longer to return to baseline... .

Neither one is easy!

When they are painting somebody else black, it feels like they want you to get in there and agree with them. If you don't agree that so and so is a horrible person, then it seems that they take it as you siding with the other person when the reality is that you are trying NOT to take sides. That in itself is exhausting.

What do you think your options are? It sounds like the options are:

-Let her rant and you get exhausted and feel like crap

-Don't stay present and listen and then have her get mad at you (at which point you become the target)

I am wondering if there is a way to find a middle ground where you listen and validate and then move on. Is this an all the time thing or are you feeling particularly sensitive to it lately because there is other stuff that is stressful in your life?

I know that I will go for a while and be okay with something. I will get tired or stressed or worried and then I won't be okay with it any more. Why was okay with it before and not now? What changed? Sometimes, it is me slowly waking up to all of the ways that I have walked on eggshells or put my comfort aside so that I didn't have to deal with the discomfort of having to deal with a love one that is upset with ME.

So what has changed -

- her rants about others have become much more frequent.  I could validate and move on if this were once every other week or once a week.  Not twice a day.  As it is now, I validate, think we have moved on, but 4 hours later back to the same old thing.  That is tiring.

- Now that we are married and talking about starting a family, these rants about others seem to carry much more weight.  A year ago if she wanted to rant about her dad and paint him black, it didn't seem to affect me as much.  Now that our relationship is more serious, I see how her constantly painting others black is very negative towards me, and negative towards a potential future child. 

- a year ago if she was this way, I would think, "once she gets into therapy/job/settled, this problem will fade."  Well, here we are a year later, the same is still happening, she can't hold a job, and nothing has really changed.  So I think that has me burnt out.  Hard to see progress and remain optimistic when she is ranting every day about someone. 

Would it be possible to set a boundary around this? You listen and validate the first time and then the second time validate that you heard her earlier and know she is frustrated. Would SET work in this situation?


How is it negative towards you? Are you saying that it reflects poorly on you?


Ah, you are facing the reality of it all. That is rough. I have spent 17 years thinking that things will get better when [fill in the blank]. [Fill in the blank] happens and things didn't get better so I would find some other reason that the problem hadn't faded or things hadn't changed. It is a whole lot easier to deal with something when your mindset is "this is temporary and will pass". Things get real rather quickly when I realize that this likely isn't going to change unless I do something about it.

 

What did you think would be different when you married? What is actually different? What do you anticipate will be different after your wedding ceremony/reception and then having a baby?

Where do you anticipate you will be in 5 years... .with a child? How equipped are you to take on this life?

I'm with vortex and wondering if there is a middle ground.

When you say you have to stay "present."  Do you mean you literally have to listen to her rant at dad, then you have to help her cope?

Or do you mean you need to stay "present," as in grounded?

I wonder if you can bear the stress more if you removed yourself from having to witness the rant, but then are only available for the supportive part? 

Or can you listen without absorbing so much emotion?  Can you humm a tune in your head to be partially present and chime in appropriately?  Or humor yourself by counting her dilation of pupils or something?

Or can you have established "no stress" days where no stressful things are discussed on say date night?

Idk... .maybe nothing here helps... .I thought I'd try tho.

Max,


Here are my views on your issue :


First of all, do NOT have a child before all of this has been sorted out.  You do not want to overload yourself with the responsibilities of a child when you're already hard-pressed without one.

Your wife needs support.  And I'm talking about emotional support.

She has a lot of frustrations inside her, and is just expressing that.

And typically, women need to talk about their emotions to get them processed.  Also, women call for help from their (female) peers by throwing their issue in the group.  Classically, the group members will jump on the issue, and express support to her.

Hence the pouring-out to you.  She's signalling for your support.

What she does not realize is that you as a man have totally different ways to handle those emotions (cave-time), and her pour-outs are actually a burden to you.  Also, in general, men regard requests for help as a sign of weakness, so the first male reaction is one of rejection, instead of support.  She does not realize that she is actually putting heavy pressure you, because she expects you to react in a way that is unnatural to you.

For figuring out how to handle it, let's look at how she expects to be supported:

The primary need for most women is support, meaning they need to know they're not alone.  So, women solve their emotional issues by accompanying each other down into the abyss.  From experience, they know that, because of this, the originator will bottom out at one point, her emotion will change, and she will start to rise again out of the abyss.  For most women this method is a reliable way to get rid of their emotional issues.

So, you need to prepare to follow her emotions deep down there.  It's a skill most men still need to learn, but you need to get convinced that she will come out a lot happier as long as you can accompany her down there.  If you feel you're not up to it, you might want to put up a boundary, like "I'm really busy now, but I would love to talk about it this evening".  This also gives you time to prepare mentally for the task.

To be able to take it : do not take anything she says too strictly (but validate her words all the time).  Men tend to take every word as a fact, and that's not what she's doing here: she's just pouring out her emotions, and emotions are mostly expressed as a coloured interpretation of reality.  In other words: be a good listener, it is all she needs.

If she comes back a second time, it means she did not get what she needed the first time.  If you're not up for it, just say that you have already talked about this, that you understand that it upsets her a lot, but that you're also busy at work, and if she needs more support, you'd be happy to continue in the evening.


Once you notice that it helps, you'll feel a lot better about yourself (you've just helped her solve one of her difficult issues), and all those dark emotional left-overs will vanish.  Man's "Fixer" syndrome at its best... .


Jack

Wow jack!  HYSTERICAL!   lol

So completely accurate!  I love it!  Great job!

Good job giving your buddy the right type of armor to deal with us women! 

I will add one thing:


I think it could be also be interpreted that they need to be... .

1. Heard

2. Feel understood

My uBPDexgf would do this same thing. We were together 9.5 yrs. Her criticism and raging of others increased over the years. It seemed the more she was frustrated about something the more she would rant about any and everything. I listened, affirmed, and all that other stuff as I am a woman too. (LT lesbian couple) What I found for myself is that I too became frustrated with everyone as well. Not that I became critical, but I noticed that I seemed angry quite a bit and I couldn't put my finger on why. We've been broken up 7 months now, and I am angry, but it's totally at her! (Justifiably so I might add). However, I don't feel anger toward others as I had, and I don't have the multiple daily listening to ragings going on either.

For me anyway, I noticed that her rages and rants did have an affect on me Longterm. Particularly because she never seemed to want to solve the problem, but just rant and carry on. She knew I was listening, she knew I was supportive, but it didn't end her current problem. My point is that over time, at least for me, hearing the ragings on a daily basis can be hard on the listener in the long term. It's so subtle you don't even realize you've changed. Just my experience.

Can't give you any help, but can empathize.  As Vortex said, "If you don't agree that so and so is a horrible person, then it seems that they take it as you siding with the other person ... ."  My SO seems to think that I don't love him if I don't see his current target as all black as he does.  Then he acts like I don't love him if I am not on his side.  This has always been a very big problem for us since I strongly believe what my parents taught me: There is good and bad in everyone, and it is our job to be a good finder.  It's been a real struggle to just tell him that I do not feel the same and I have the right to have my own view/opinion of things, even other people. 

Sorry to hear that, Shadow.

It is a problem some people have (I've seen it in one of my sisters too) : they focus only on their emotions, and do not do anything to solve the original problem; so they keep coming back with the same issue over and over again.

It is your right to put a boundary on this behavior.  She has used you as an emotional tampon, because she saw that you kept absorbing her frustration time and again. For her it was the easiest to do nothing about the original problem and just vent to you when her frustration rose again.

In the case of my sister, she kept coming back to my other sister for relief, until the other one put up a boundary that she was not welcome anymore to come back to her with that specific issue; she had to deal with it herself from here on.

And that did it. After the initial disbelief, it finally sank in that she had to do something about it herself, instead of constantly nagging about it.   And she did; the issue has been handled in the mean time.

About yourself: it is true that a negative person has a bad effect on you over the longer term. Been there myself.  Managed to climb out of the darkness by focusing primarily on myself, and not giving a toss about what anyone else thinks about it.

Jack

1. You don't have to listen to her rant AT somebody (like her dad)

If she is on the phone with him and listening to it is hard for you, STOP listening, and go elsewhere. It is her thing, not yours; don't get involved. (And I doubt she expects you to keep listening!)

2. You get to decide much ranting about somebody else you want to listen to from her.

Your personal pledge has turned into something that is harming you. (You "feel like crap" Time to revisit it.

My suggestions for changing it are:

• Limit the amount of time you are exposed to this. Enforce a boundary: "I cannot listen to anymore about (your dad, or other person) today."



• Figure out the difference between her feelings, which you can validate (She is feeling hurt, rejected, judged, etc.) and complaining/criticizing/blaming somebody else... .the same sort of stuff you won't accept when she says it about you to  you... .and try to steer her away from that part, or set a boundary there too.

max, this attitude is enmeshed and codependent. Her relationship with her dad (or anybody else) is hers. Let it be hers. Don't make it your problem--you cannot change it, and have very little influence. All you can do is drive yourself batty worrying about it!

Thanks Jack. Being a people pleaser doesn't help, but in the end following my on course is the best for my sanity.