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My wife had been going back and forth while.  She lost both her parents 3 months ago and since that point, lost her job, her best friend, and has spiraled down hill.  She hates my mother and thinks my mother let her down and is a liar and horrible person.  I work with my mother to make matters worse

Yesterday after saying how she does not love me anymore, and hates me... I told her that I know she is in tremendous pain, and while she thinks I have no clue what true pain is, that she is putting her pain on me and I nearly have the same pain as her.  She went bezerk.  Saying I said I Was in as much pain as her.  Even if I said that I am not sure if that is so bad.

She is talking about dying constantly, she is now aenorexic and bulemic.  She is isolated and alone.  She has said I am a pussy, I am a monkey boy, pathetic, she has no respect for me, she thinks I am a failure and a loser.  She thinks all my interests are stupid and I am stupid.  She thinks I am a bad father and bad husband and a liar and a thief.   She has told me that she is going to tell the police I hit her when I have never, and she has told me she is going to tell my business that I am stealing from them in addition to turning myself and mother into IRS for nothing that I am aware of, but who knows what might come out of that.  She then calls me saying she is alone and isolated.  I try and explain that I want to help her but I cannot help her if she is going to be nasty to me when I try to. 

I do not see how I can go back now with those kind of threats though.  She told me that she wrote me out of her will and that I will never be allowed to be with the step children.  She maxed my credit cards and told me all her money from inheritance is going to her sister now, and that she will die and its my fault.

I feel reduced to nothing.  I know I can fight back, but doing so will crush any life she has left.  Just telling her she is hurting me is horrific.  I told her, her parents would be ashamed of her behavior and she acting like I punched her.  She says she hopes my mother and sister die and she cant wait for it.  She said once she does not care if I die...

There is no family of hers to support her.  Her sister is all that left and she said she is staying out of it.  If she attacks my mother, my mother will fight back and hurt her.  I do not see what can be done with my wife.  Her therapist is to the piont that she needs to go away for awhile, but she is refusing and says while she wants to die and she is wasting away she will not kill herself...

i feel she is pushing every button to have me kill myself.  I feel that she wants my blood, but will then regret it and hurt.  I have nothing left neither at this point.  I have a career that is holding onto a thread, I have no family nor friends though all of this... I have no place to even sleep but my office.  I insisted on staying at home and asserting i have a right and i will not come near her but that is when she threatened with police.  The irony is she has physically assaulted me and says it never happens now

wow brother , thats rough, i can only imagine hwo torn you are right now, especially when its your wife , life partner and best friend... I just broke up with my BPD girlfriend, when it was all going on she pulled a knife on me, attacked me several times, when i was going to phone the police she said she would put in a rape charge against me even though i never gave the police the address or her name... Since then its been hell but i wont bore you with the nitty gritties... All i can day really my friend is i dont think you should go back, i would say try loving from a distance and in the mean time build yourself up n try let go a bit , remember who you are , which to me sounds like a thoroughly good person. All you want is for your spouses pain to stop and for the badness to come to an end , i know when my gf was cutting herself considering suicide etc all i wanted to do was hug her til the pain went away, we have to save ourselves to be able to save anyone else ... As in writing this i feel as though in saying this to you but also myself as i feel the urge to back and try again but realistically its too soon, the wounds are too fresh Andy you both need time to heal ... But still would probably say support her where you can as she sounds very vulnerable right now... Nobody wants to feel like that ... .Just remember to keep strong and sain , hope this post helps somewhat , reading yours has made me feel not so alone in all of this . . I will pray for both you and your family . One love brother. youre a good manl

thanks... i will say this... BPD... it might really just be a demonic possession because it just makes no sense...   it all started actually just cause I went to Church and it ran over a bit

I can understand how you feel. It is so easy with BPD that we are reduced to just a DOOR MAT.

I think it is kind of crazy when she threatened to allow you not to be with the step children. Mind you that this is NOT your children, they are hers. THe threat is a real joke.

She threatened to leave you out of her will. May I ask what she has to pass on as inheritance when she has no money, deeply in debt?

just be careful, otherwise in her craziness moment she can claim that you either rape her or assault her. THen you will be in a world of trouble.

I have been following your story and have been wondering when you will come to some conclusions

you are right... its some scary stuff and I am not sure.  The one problem/blessing I have is I am easily able to forgive people.  I can get past and not dwell on people's flaws pretty easy.  It is nice because I do not have anger nor hate that builds up in me and I do not stress long over people who have harmed me.  The downside to that is it enables me to get hurt again and again.

The odd thing is that my wife is the complete opposite.  Her main problem is she obsesses about transgressions against her and almost needs to have people pay for their mistakes.  We could probably use some of each habit on that issue

irony is that I am the one clinically diagnosed as having OCD lol

Hey hurthusband, I find your position interesting because a lot of folks on this board want to leave, but don't know how to do it, yet you want to stay, but she's forcing your hand to go.  Does that about sum it up?  What are your gut feelings?  What do you really want to do, deep down?  Is it fair to say that, to you, it feels like you are between a rock and a hard place?  At what point will you decide to treat yourself with kindness and respect?  Until then, it's going to be rough sledding, in my view.

LuckyJim

You should ask about recording apps for your phone on the Legal board. I know such things exist.

Having recordings of her saying she will make false accusations about you to the police, to your employer, or others could be really helpful to you if she actually does follow through on those threats.

If she's made those threats in email, text message, or voicemail, all the better--you already have a record of them. Keep those records someplace safe, like at your office.

might need to check into recording apps... she wanting to be back together now... i am just confused

Do you want to move back into the house with her?

Does it feel safe to you?

If you have a smart phone, like android or iphone, it will have the voice recording function. You can turn it on secretly then quietly put in down on the table or on the chair, without her noticing it.

Use the voice recorder in your smartphone. Go to the police now and tell them your concerns. Ask to make a written statement. If your state doesn't admit non-consensual sound recordings in court, you can at least play the sound recordings to the police when you get arrested.

You seem very weak like I was. No wonder she hates you. You need to grow some balls and admit that... .

1. Nothing will get better

2. You are not qualified to help her

3. You need help from a therapist

4. She could put you in jail for something you didn't do.  She is dangerous for you.

5. The relationship was over a LONG time ago.

6. And did I mention you need help from a therapist?

Talking the first step is hard. Taking the second step is even harder because you might turn around and just go back. Get some help for yourself so that when you finally have the balls to  leave her you do it for the right reasons and you don't run back to her a like sick little puppy dog. She will hate you even more if you do this and then the "punishment" is worse.

well i have a psychiatrist, she has one and a psychologist but they are not much help

Forget about her, our only interest here is YOU.

What are they not much help?

Please don't quote me, just a straight answer will do - thanks.

the psychologist is only BPD person i found in town and seems to not be tough enough for her.  She also sided with me it seemd to her in a couple of sessions we did jointly at my wife's request.  The psychiatrist I do not know hwat is going on.  She has her taking stimulants and with all her depression and death of two parents she has her on anxiety meds... ie xanax rather than anything for depression

Last night... so it was a long hard day at work and my wife was great and supportive.  She was excited to see my cousin who had always been my best friend until he moved away about 9 years ago.  He just had a book come out.  We met him for dinner and he can be a bit abrasive and made a few of his usual comments that my wife seemed to not like but i think was not targeted at her.  He did seem a bit off like refusing to high five her at a joke which just seemed odd and petty as to why.  When I went to use the restroom I came back out to them arguing.  He then left and drove off.  Apparantly, he told my wife to go easier on me and to lay off.  To stop giving me a hard time.  My wife said to him that she had just lost two parents and was going through a hard time so lay off of her to which he said "___ you" which set her off.  When I heard this I went to talk to him and he drove off.  He would not take my calls nor texts.  This is actually the third time this same sort of thing has happened.  I will admit that he has been a kind of lousy friend over the years.  I think he did have some geniune care for watching over me but also some meanness when he did it knowing him how I did

My wife though said that I once again did not stand up for her.  I should hold him accountable.  I should go find him and confront him.  What should I have done?

She talked about 2 months ago when my mother called her and told her to leave me alone when my wife threatened to take the kids away from me and never let me see them again.  I told my mother it was not her business and while she was looking out for me she was wrong.  My mother did not apologize and that has always pissed my wife off since.  Then a month ago at my grandfathers funeral... my mother claims that she touched my kids arms as they walked past in a procession and ignored my wife out of spite, but my wife and kids say they do not remember her there.  My mother claims they ignored her so when she walked past them later she did not even glance at them.  My wife had told my mother to never contact her or the kids again so my mothers was hurt i suppose and figured it was what my wife wanted.  My wife thinks my mother specifically snubbed them all then lied about touching them at door but none of their stories completely jive and i do not know what to believe so i just stayed out of it but my wife says i basically sided with mom and called her kids liars and that I did not hold my mother accountable.  I suppose she thinks i should quit my job with my mother.  My wife seems to want my mother to be like a replacement for her mother and is hurt that my mom sided against her

Then 4 months ago my wife's best friend just stopped communicating with her.  My wife went to their house drunk when i was not there, and her friends husband supposedly got in her face and told her to never communicate with them again and that she was told not communicate with them.  My wife feels i should have held him accountable for being threatening to her, but at same time it was his home.  What should I had done?

The worst was 2 years ago when she was having a procedure at a doctors office... she was mildly sedated and the doctor stopped the procedure and started beratting her for making too much noise since she was in pain.  Then threatened her.  It was horrific experience.  I had no clue what do do.  After everything, I tried to tell him his behavior was unacceptable, and i filed a grievance with medical board which resulted in him losing his license.  My wife felt i should have been more forceful and threatening is supposed to him.  He was in his 70s so i do not think physical violence was right and i do not think it is ever right...

she says i cannot protect her and I am too much a pussy.  Perhaps I am.  if i was not maybe i would hold her more accountable for her actions and others would not step in to defend me.  Still, what should I have done better to protect my wife.  From her perspective all these people attacked her and scared her and hurt her and at least with my mother I still work with her and have a civil relationship.

This sent her over.  We are supposed to go to courthouse Monday to file for divorce.  My wife is dying... She has lost 20 lbs since her parents died.  She lays in bed all day many days.  She does not communicate with anyone.  Her hair is falling out.  She cannot sleep more than an hour a night.  She cannot eat and when she does she throws it up.  After 4 days we were getting along and off to have a good night and this brought back all the pain and at this point I cannot say my family will not say something when they see her.

I suppose its because they know she has been physically violent with me and emotionally wrecking me. Last night she open handed slapped me into my face and nose as hard as she could and shoved me some.  She told me she hated me and regretted ever seeing me.  I ruined her life and she is going to be dead.  I will not see the kids ever again.  She is going to destroy me now for not protecting her.  She is doing this because she is hurting.  What can I do?  What do I do?

I feel responsible and am responsible on some level.  If I had just kept my mouth shut and never talked to anyone about my life, but even then they notice me crying at work, sleeping in my car and without showers or clean clothing some days.  They know i developed vertigo problems and am not eating some days.  They can see those things

Do i call and tell my mother to apologize or else?  I cannot get my wife to realize her full role in this, but I do not want the guilt of knowing i played a role in her death and i do not want her to die.  I do not want the guilt of all of this. 

Hurthusband, I say this because I care... .

Many of us have followed your situation over the past months. I hear you repeating the events leading up to now, and you are spinning and spinning within the same story, unable to sort out the true priorities that you should be addressing today. Today.

You ask if you should apologize to your wife when at the same time you admit two much graver problems. 1) Your wife is in a mental health crisis that is threatening her life. 2) Your wife is violent, and you are a victim of domestic abuse.

An apology to her will solve neither of these. She is in a mental and emotional state that no longer allows her to hear what to say.

Take her to the nearest hospital that can assess her physical and mental state, and let them save her life. Tell them that she is violent ( she may attack them). Her eating disorder is out of control. She is an alcoholic. You have no idea what combinations of meds she is absorbing with no or little food.

Your family is in crisis. Act now.

Has it occurred to you that your wife's behaviors towards other people get the responses they deserve from those other people?

Has it occurred to you that her behavior towards others is pushing them out of your life?  That she is on a campaign to isolate you?  Your mom has shown concern for you and now your cousin and your wife is alienating them.

Has it ever occurred to you that when she asks you to stand up for her that she is really asking you to validate her bad behavior?

Do you ever hold her accountable for her actions?

Hurthusband,

some of the stuff you are writing is quite shocking  you are being abused and sound very, very down  .

I'm not going to repeat what you wrote what your wife said. It should be clear to you by now that she says stuff in order to get a reaction from you. You being so exhausted it takes extreme stuff to get you to react emotionally. So she does what needs the job done i.e. transferring her emotions to you. Sadly shared pain is not half the pain but means two people in the same pain here.

Considering that she has progressed to physical violence - please take steps to protect yourself! Men are in a weaker position and in her current state she might claim anything.


This in conjunction with suicide threats may well be a reason to reach out to 911 at a time. Her behavior has been escalating quite far and there are not many steps you can take on your side to match her extreme level.

How are the children taking the situation and her behavior?

children basically for most part do not care and it does not affect them.  oldest one it does some but he is with his father alot of times too, and is a teenager so is kind of not caring. 

the problem is she repeatedly says she is not going to commit suicide.  so the problem is trying to get her help involuntarily is pretty much impossible. 

she is under probation for a DWI so i suppose i could go to the cops, but if she is in fact willing to lie... i would probably be the one in handcuffs.  Also she has no family basically now so help is hard to find.

She says cruel things, threatens, pushes you away, and you love her so you end up taking it. Then you say one little thing back to her and she uses it against you too. She tries to force you to give up any strands of support you have left (your mom, cousin, your job). Deep inside, she knows it's a disease and she doesn't WANT you to obey her. You need to keep setting boundaries. Instead of reacting for or against her, step out of the situation. I don't mean you have to leave permanently if you don't want to; I mean set boundaries. Don't answer false accusations, don't answer yelling phone calls at work, tell her firmly you won't talk about your family (mom etc.) with her as it only leads to fights. Her therapist and yours should reinforce this.

And if she is anorexic, bulemic, taking drugs, etc. etc., you have to find a way to gather enough evidence and then force her into treatment. As someone said above, you need to get authorities involved or you may regret it.

I know the kids do care about you. They are even more powerless than you are. A 15 year old can't control anything.

You are doing steadily better. It takes a long time to figure this stuff out. Don't let her drive you to the brink. I saw you being strong there for a while - you opened up to your T and her sister. You may have to tell more people, for all of your sakes. I know you can do it!

Hey oneloveonelife, thank you for quoting the original post when you were the first to answer it. I'm not sure I would have known what you we're replying to had you not done that so thanks again. 

Hey hurthusband, you need help. As previously suggested you are being abused and it seems that you don't know it. It's time to stop putting her needs first. It sounds like you have done more than enough for her.

The title of your post, "I do not want to, but It appears I must leave" should have read "This is Crap - I'm Leaving". You should actually want to leave given the abuse your suffering. Better still, why don't you stay and get rid of her? Work with your therapist to get you to feel the full gravity of the abuse and stand up for yourself. Good luck.

Update and question

Update Portion

   Well was kicked out again and stayed away for days.  She still would call or text crying.  Last Saturday she kicked through a glass window when I was not there and said I she probably needed my help cause she was bleeding pretty badly.  I said, I would come out and take her to the hospital and call her sister who was closer.  I suspected this might be a ploy... .I mean I knew she kicked out the window.  IT is totally something she would do, but I suspected teh blood was not that bad.  when I told her about the hospital and getting her sister involved she totally flipped and said not to come near the home and she would not answer the door.  This confirmed more my suspicions, BUT my son was home alone with her and if she was bleeding badly, I would feel horrible blowing it off so I did contact her sister who ignored me, and went up there.  When I got there she was gone with my son.  I suspected her sister picked her up and I did not find any blood, but did find the front window kicked out.  I was concerned and did not want to assume at sisters in case she went off the deep end.  So called her sister and asked her on message to just let me know if my wife was with her and okay, otherwise I needed to come by and check because I do not know if she is okay or if son is okay or what is going on.  I got there and her sister said she was there and okay.  I left, relieved. Apologized for coming and disrupting, but explained that I was concerned.  I left and my wife texted the usual horrible things how we were over etc. 

Easter was the next morning... she texted me and was kind of mean to be honest but said she was going to two church services, and didnt care if I went or not.  I am religious, my wife does not like religion at all.  This I found very strange.  Easter is a day of forgiveness and perhaps my wife is reaching for religion or compassion or forgiveness here for herself.  I hoped so.  I did ask if she was asking me to go to church or if she was just stating.  She said do what I want so I went home showered while she was as first service and went there and sat with her.  Rest of day she talked about how she wanted to let go of the rage and anger and forgive.  I naturally am suspect of this, but I pray for a miracle every day and it is Easter. 

We have a nice Easter and a nice Monday.  Tuesday goes on great too.  At night she gets a bit agitated and bites me a little after a couple of beers and not eating much.  Yesterday everything was good the whole day.  By evening when I get home she is feeling depressed.  She is always depressed and always talking about it and it is honestly very stressful to have to give so much emotional support all day every day for months and months with no difference and possibly anything i said upsetting her more.  I feel bad about that but it is very hard. 


Here is the question...

At dinner, the subject comes up about her having to go to the funeral home for her father and get a refund because 4 months after the fact, they STILL do have not his ashes interred and provided the services paid for.  It was upsetting for her and she gets a bit upset discribing how she had to get angry with them and she always wins and gets what she sets out to do.  I apologize for the topic and try to change it.  I mention something about my work and something funny that happened.  She then says she wants to talk about the future.  She states that she wants to know when I am going to get a raise and I deserve a raise and she does not like not having more.  She says I cannot keep up basically working 2 40 hour a week jobs in 47 hours.  This is true to a degree.  I help run a property management company with family and have the agreement that I can work on my other job while there which is consulting for auto industry.  It does mean that alot happens in those 47 hours I work, but I get paid hourly at one job and auto I get paid by the job so I am basically being paid for two jobs while working one.  It is a good deal.  The result is that I have a hard time asking for a raise at my family job being that alot of time I am working on my other job.  Now, I could quit my other job but that would require my family job to more than double what they pay, and we are going through a never ending trust issue with another relative that has lasted 8 years and the judge will not close my grandfathers estate (he died 8 years ago) and just rule in the matter.  This means that we are scrutinized on every penny spent and I am questions on my pay alot.  Ideally, we are trying to force a wrap up of this matter and I can move in to taking a larger role and thus pay more with eventually taking over and handing off my auto business.

I hate this line of questioning.  It irks me.  It feels like she is telling me how to live my life and what to do.  She is upset I we do not have more money and says I am content.  I am never content, but I understand that I just had my largest year yet and make 215% more than the average person in Dallas area.  So I make good money.  We do have alot of expenses... .$32k in medical expenses prevent alot of spending on other stuff and funeral arrangements do not help either.  Now I bring up that fact, and she thinks I am blaming it on her.  I am not blaming it on her, it is necessary to have those things, but it does mean we do not have as much as some other people and it does mean we are a bit on hold.  That makes things worse.  She says she wants to know where we will be 5 years from now.  My reply is that who knows in what job where they will be 5 years from now.  I know I will have a job with family for sure.  Its over 300 properties owned free and clear.  It does not run itself, but it takes a moron to tank it and essentially I am locked in as family.  It is job security which so many do not have at all in corporate jobs.  It sounds like my wife wants to know when I will take over and get the farm.  Honestly, its gravy money I did not earn.  I am working my butt off and providing more than most with income up each year.  Yea, maybe I am slightly underpaid at one job, but I am not for sure I am anyways.  Now she says I am alway upset wtih my job.  I may gripe about some people at my job, but I think thats normal.  There is probably a day a week or every 2 weeks when I get pretty stressed wtih work, but honestly, some of that is because I am already over the edge from home life and cannot deal with work or slack on work dealing with home fighting... .

All of this is really irritating, and I express a desire not to talk about items that are hot button items when we are just trying to get things on the right foot.  She says I am ignoring them and presses on.  I really just wanted to have a nice meal.  I just found out earlier that day my taxes were going to be about $6k more in my favor than I had thought which is pretty nice to have.  She keeps on so I express the statement that I do not find it fair that she keeps asking more of me.  I say I understand she is going through a hard time now (it has been nearly 4 months since both parents died, 5 months since lost job, 5 months since lost best friend), but it is not really fair to keep asking me to be more and do more when I am doing all I can, and essentially am doing everything money making wise as my wife has no job (and is really just spending money on hobbies for others).  Honestly, the best way to increase our income would be if she did get a job.  She knows that and shot back that she will just get a bad $11 an hour job and see how that helps.  Well honestly, thats $11 an hour raise on our income which is pretty significant raise in a year on year

We got home and things were quiet and I offered to help her and offered to talk, and she started up again on it all.  She said she got the refund on her dad's internment to get us money that we needed because I had mentioned that we were low on money several months back.  That to me is overboard and did not need to happen.  She then said it was also because they were not being fair to her so I am confused and its just how I never change, and she is wanting to continue this with kids around.  I refuse so she says to step outside.  She keeps going and takes a few low blow. 

At this point, I do not know what to do.  I know that wherever I am in the house she will find me and keep berating me.  It is 10 pm and she does not sleep so she will keep waking me up to argue.  I do not feel safe, so I grab some things to leave and sleep in my car.  She says if I leave I can never come back.  She threatens me and takes a few more shots at my mother and my family and how I abandoned her.  I just want some peace.  As I leave she says I can never see the kids again and some other things...

Was I all wrong?  Should I have stayed and battled it out or just ignored her which would infuriate her?  I do not want to abandon her, but I feel like its 24/7 sole support system for something that really needs a whole family to support.  Its driving me crazy.  I know she is crazy at this piont with all the tragedy, but all the lifting is asked of me it seems.   I also know that there will not be more than 2 days that go on without me getting in trouble because she feels angry at my mother and thus at me even though they have not talked in months or mad at me over income and vacations.  Mad at me saying I ignore her.  I got in trouble the other night because I picked the movie Birdman to watch with her which won Best Picture and she thought it wasnt that good, saying I should have known she would not like it.  I do not know how to help her at this point.  I do not know how to help me.  I do not want to hurt her.  I want a life with her.  Does she have a right to question as she does my job?  am i just using her situation as a crutch to deny answering questions that I should?

Hurthusband:

Allow me to not sugar coat your predicament.

It sounds to me like you are going in a circle for a long time now.

At this point, it looks like your wife is NOT going to change and the old cycle keeps repeating. The fundamental problems of your marriage are not solved at all. The 2 unhappy people are trying to change the other to fit their needs and not looking at him or herself.

My recommendations to you are:

1. Get back to the basic issues/concerns of you marriage. 

2. What does marriage mean to you ? please don't give me the bull crap of the wedding wows.  What really you and she want in a marriage? WRITE THESE THOUGHTS DoWN . Writing will clarify your mind.

3. Now compare the conditions and situations where you are NOW, with what you would like to see.

4. If the what you have and what you want do NOT agree, then what actions do you need to take to make them agree.

5. If the actions to take will work then your marriage is salvageable. If they are not, then you need to make the hard decisions of staying or leaving.

Haven't had a chance to read it all, but you are rarely wrong. Step back and imagine that your wife was leaving it all to you. What would you do regarding your job? Her advice is often wrong and not only NOT in your best interest, but not in hers or the kids'. If you are walking a fine line, don't ask for a raise or anything that will cause problems if you don't feel comfortable with it. Remember, this is a person who constantly wanted you to quit.

I think if a situation arises in which you can force your wife to be admitted to a hospital, you should do it. What if she was bleeding and she was with the kids? Or something else? I know you can't jump the gun or it will be worse, esp considering she was lying this time, but you have to figure out how far it can go. If she really had injured herself severely, that would make her a danger to herself and if proven she could be forced into a hosp. You might want to talk to a local psych. about what to do if she ever meets that standard.

That said, seems like you've been handling things well, haven't had any emergencies, and best of all, you are reaching out to the sister and setting some boundaries, rather than being too intimidated to do that. Being away for a few days can allow you to breathe. You haven't given in to her threats or bad advice. So keep up the good work.  In the long term, you are living a life in which you are nearly constantly scared. She seems unlikely to change unless treatment changes or something else changes, so you may have to set more boundaries if you want to keep living. It's very hard and you take a risk every time you do something or open your mouth, that she will make you feel bad about it. Hang in there.

This was almost too long to read, but I've got one bit of advice for you:

If your wife says ANYTHING about your job, your family, etc... .end the conversation with her right away. NOTHING GOOD WILL COME OF THIS CONVERSATION.

She is in horrible pain herself... .and she for some crazy reason believes that if you do certain things regarding this, she won't be feeling this pain. She is WRONG. Her pain isn't going to go away.

And if you quit your job, or cut off your family, you will be harmed financially, and personally, which won't benefit her at all.

If you are at home and she just starts launching into you... .the best thing you can do is leave. The more consistently you do this, the better everything will go.

1. Get back to the basic issues/concerns of you marriage.

I cannot say for sure what hers are, but it seems she wants more purpose and wants me to provide it for her as she is scared to attempt herself.  She wants somebody who is loving and caring and somebody who values her more than anything else.  I feel I do, but she does not see it.  She wants space to do her thing and not be questioned.  She wants a better lifestyle.  She made the comment that I have always had money and do not know what it is like without, but she actually needs more than I who am content living with less than I grew up with.  I want love, but I want to be respected and be allowed to pursue my interests and life to a degree.  Not given a hard time about my hobbies or religion.  I want to help my wife and spend time together, but not every moment of every day and not doing what only they want.  I do not want to be guilted...

Neither of us seems to be getting it, but I am not sure if some of her beliefs are even possible or if they are asking another to make her happy and not work towards her own happiness.

Thats what I thought.  thus why I left.  I find that I am happier living in my car than in fear of arguments or going through the same thing over and over.  I just do not want to reinforce abandoning her by leaving in these situations.  Usually if i step out she will not let me back in for a couple of days

Hey hh, I don't regard it as "abandoning" your W if you need to leave in order to enforce your boundaries.  Quite the contrary.  Having spent many a night at the local motel under similar circumstances, let's just say I know where you are coming from.  LuckyJim

Both concerns are valid, but you need to keep your priorities correct.

Being verbally (and eventually physically) abused is bad for you and bad for her. (Really, it is bad for her. If her way of coping with her difficult feelings is to beat somebody up, this is going to cause problems for her whether she is with you or not!)

Preventing that is more important than protecting her from feeling abandoned.

Here is the issue with that kind of boundary enforcement... .you've been very inconsistent when it comes to enforcing that boundary to date. Sometimes you let her launch into you for hours, even all day before you leave.

This is called intermittent reinforcement, and it is the most powerful way to train somebody. (It works like a slot machine that sometimes pays out when you pull the lever.) Given what you've done, she's pretty convinced that verbally abusing you works well. Retraining her is going to be hard work, and the more inconsistent you are, the longer it is going to take.

This kind of response is called an extinction burst. If you 'cave' when she steps it up... .it just reinforces it more for her.

So work really hard at leaving as soon as it gets verbally abusive.

One thing you can do is leave in steps. For example:

Step 1: State "I will not be spoken to that way."

Perhaps she will stop. If so, you don't have to leave. If she continues... .

Step 2: Walk out of the room to get away from her.

If she follows you and continues... .

Step 3: Leave the house, and get in your car and drive away.

If she gets in her car and follows you... .

Step 4: Drive to the nearest police station; get out of your car and walk in she follows you there. Presumably she won't be dumb enough to shout at you or attack you there.

She might make false allegations though. I hope you've got some voice/video recorders or apps on your phone going whenever you are with her now.

Another contingency:

If she blocks you from leaving the house/room, or blocks you from driving off, inform her that preventing you from leaving meets the legal definition of domestic violence, and that you will call 911 if she doesn't get out of the way. (Yes, this is true!)

Make sure your cellphone is with you at all times so that this option is available to you.

How do i know I am not using the abuse as an excuse to escape her valid concerns or questions i do not want to deal with?  I am not so sure I know the line of abuse anymore.  I know she now throws out me as abusing her verbally and I do not know what to believe. 

Is hounding me to no end abuse?  What does she have a right to know?  I want to be fair in all of this. 

Is my leaving quickly abusive?

Yes, she is abusive. No, you are not abusive.

Hounding you is abusive.

Telling you that when you go away you are abusing her is abusive too.

Leaving is NEVER abusive. (Unless you leave her by the side of the road 100 miles from anything!)

You are clearly very afraid of her--You feel safer and more comfortable sleeping in your car than being in the house with her!

Does she ever act like she is afraid of you? I didn't think so.

She may make false accusations that you abuse her... .that doesn't make it true!

Abuse is fundamentally a way for the abuser to control the victim. Often the fear of abuse or threat of abuse has the same result as the actual abuse does.

She probably does believe that when you don't let her control you, that constitutes abuse on your part. IT DOESN'T. She may believe it. She may tell you that it does. She probably tries to convince you that it does. Or that you 'deserve' the abuse she gives you. Not true.

Geez, I'm getting kinda worked up here. I remember when my wife was abusive toward me. I did stop it before it got as bad as what you are going through. I was really fortunate that I turned things around when I was starting to get lost in the FOG, starting to question my sanity, when she was telling me that I was doing things, thinking things, or feeling things that I wasn't. I got some support, and turned things around before I truly started to believe that stuff.

 You've gotten pretty deep in this already. But not so far that you can't turn it around.

Please... .if you think one thing... .and your wife says something completely different... .believe yourself.

And if you don't know... .post here. Ask us.

She had told me not to contact her and that she would just die.  I did check in today... texted her asking how she was.  I just meant it because I was concerned and cared.  She texted back that what did i want to check on... the mail? and asked me if i got the paperwork for divorce today.  I asked if i was supposed to and she said do it tomorrow for sure.  I suppose I will.  I was terrified texting her would open the floodgates it did.  I am worried because she is isolated and alone so I wanted to check.  It is probable she would text and be angry i didnt check on her later on tonight anyways, but at least i showed concern i suppose.  I am not sure what she wants.  I asked her point blank.  I said i just feel that she wants me to do all the changing and carry all the load which turned into me basically calling her a mooch and worthless in her eyes.

This is not vindictive behavior.  She seriously believes i am attacking her and that drives me crazy.  Now she say she is going to die and i should be happy.  I asked her if she is just trying to push all my buttons to push me over the edge because she knows that hurts.  It was just me making about me in her eyes.  I do not want to be callous and abandon her to die, which i believe will happen, but its seeming like its either i die with her or i abandon her to die and live with that guilt for life.

Things are so messed up.  I should have left a long time ago so at least she wouldnt blame me for all of this. 

Hey hh, Sounds like you are in the thick of FOG and drama.  Is it possible for you to take a deep breath and take a step back, and allow yourself to do nothing until you figure out the best course for you?  I suggest you sit with your feelings, without needing to take any action whatsoever.  LuckyJim

I do not want to do anything.  I think it would be best if we did not communicate and do nothing for about a week.  She continues to now contact me and make demands for me to get divorce papers.  She told me last night she told the kids I would never be back.  she said she hopes my sister kills herself.  All sorts of horrible things and I did not respond.  This morning she texted I take her off block so I did.  She called and started blasting me on how I ruined her life and how this and that... how I driven her to want to die.  How everything will go down.  How I cannot say what is right with the kids.  I finally said she was abusive and as bad as the youngest father who knocked her up left her and stole her money because she has taken the kids from me, beaten me, verbally assaulted me, and taken all the money.  She went ballistic and informed he he also hit her which I never knew.  I apologized stating it was a wrong comparison but by that point I could not point out that she had done 20 things horrible and that resulted in me firing back which was wrong or it seems im just making excuses. 

I do not want to hurt her.  I want to be calm and get through this or divorce peacefully.  I do not want to wreck her nor the kids in this.  I am obviously re-inforcing and exacerbating things.  Am I just firing heavier salvos?  Am I ... .I just do not know.  I wish she saw my love for her, but she says she does not.  So maybe it is my fault in many less tangible ways... .

Good.  Try to do nothing.  Is there a way for you suspend communication for a period of time, like taking a "time-out"?  The goal is to wait for the water to clear.


No, it's not your fault, so stop beating yourself up.  Try to be kind and gentle with yourself.

LuckyJim

No, it isn't your fault.

Don't beat yourself up, like LJ said.

And next time she says something abusive over the phone, just hang up. You don't need to defend yourself. You don't need to prove that she is abusive.

All you need do is get yourself out of that toxic situation. (Her verbally abusing you)

I am sure she does not view alot of what she says as abuse so its possible i do the same

This is a mess.  She has me over a barrel if I am going to be civil about all of this.  If i want to be cold blooded I could put her over a barrel

 "I think it would be best if we did not communicate and do nothing for about a week."

I'll say. You should tape the conversations. If she makes a suicide threat or a physical threat, she can be hospitalized. Get a tape recorder now before you regret not doing it.

You might inform her shrink about your concerns about her, and her sister to check up on her.

DO you regret taking the phone off block? It seems like every time you do, she says cruel things . I know you want to make sure she's ok, tho. I wish someone else could check up.

Do the kids know they can/should contact you in secret? Do they have cell phones?

I think you need help dealing with this. Once you get the right help or a smart person gets involved, you may regret waiting so long. Things can get better.

Obviously she will never ever get divorce papers. She was trying to goad you. Just try to tune all that out.

You gotta believe in something. Start with yourself. 

This idea that you are abusive and don't know it... .this is her being abusive and trying to distort reality. What we call being lost in the FOG -- Fear, Obligation, and Guilt.


I agree completely that it is a mess.

I don't understand how she has you over a barrel... .or how you could have her there.

so my wife apologized yesterday for Friday night and asked that we take a 5 day break from talking which i agreed and stated i love her and I do care.

About 2 pm today she texted if i went to church which I said I had not and felt a bit guilty over it. I explained my step father was talking about a station between my mother/brother/sister that i did not want to be involved in.She continued to poke about that and i explained i did not want to get involved and it was just stupid drama.  She asked if it was about her and I said of course not.

She then started to go into how miserable she was and then friend of step fathers came in who i used to work with so i am trying to be cordial and text with wife.  She talked about how miserable she was and i said how i am sorry she is so unhappy.  I asked if there was anything i could do.  She just kept on how things were unfair and i tried to sympathize but panicking to answer back fast enough and worrying she just thinks im having a good ole time without her cause she brings that up when we are separated.  I never bring up that we agreed not to talk. she stated i was making it about myself

She then states why havent i done anything for her spontaneously and do something for her cause she feels forgotten... .Now this struck a nerve with me as i was already frustrated and we had been going back and forth on this for 2 hours.  I say i dont know what to do.  i was only home 3 days this week and i made a special trip to get some prosciutto and craft beers that you cant get just anywhere for you.  you tell me not to come around or contact you so i dont.  You want to so i listen.  im crazy by this point so i kick out the friend and leave.  i say this is too much to deal with

she says she does nto know what im talking about and sufferien badly and im just hurting her by saying things like that and that i am not capable of saving this marraige.  and she is sorry to bother me along with saying she does not understand and is done.

i explain that i do care and that everytime it seems she contacts me it is to say how she is miserable and it is my fault.  i cannot just keep taking that.  i explain i put up with physical abuse from her and i sit by the phone and dont eat to be ready for her at all times so she doesnt get mad.  i explain that we are all miserable and we do not want this life.  i am not saying mine is worse, but we are all miserable and i dont know what to do.

she says im blaming her for things that have not happens and i am crazy.  she says she loves me but its over.

i say it seems your spinning everything back to being my fault after going back on agreement and it felt like attacking me.  She says she never.  she says she didnt attack me by asking me about spontaneous things but just suggesting... .

maybe i just cant handle seeing her in inrepairable pain and suffereing and listening and watching it for hours on end and everything i do fails or is unrecognized so i am shutting down to her because i cannot handle it at this point.  it is uncaring i know... i do not know.  i said this too her but i feel horrible

I think if you are going to have a 5-day period when you don't talk, you really need the strength to stick to it. Responding to her never seems to end in any good way.

However, I can see that you feel guilt and feel bad for her pain. Is there anyone who can look in on her while you are not talking to her? Will she see her therapist then?

I think things would become clearer for you if you can step away from the situation and breathe a little. I doubt you got much out of texting with her for two hours, except wasting 2 hrs.

she keeps texting how horribly depressed she is.

i keep asking if she is talking to her doc. is it she wants me to fix things or just listen... she says just listen cause im all thats left

i mention telling her med doctor how bad things are.  she says maybe

i mention going back to psychologist and she says that one is too weak

i mention new one, she says no doctors

i mention facilities and she says she is not going away from kids

i mention ones that are close and she says she is not going to a hospital

i mention checking out resort type ones

she im cheap and will put her in a bad one

i say i will figure out a way and she we not taking money from my mother

i mention some other way and she says she is not going to one so drop it

i finally say i am trying to help anyways possible... she says i dont know what im talking about and i say probably not but im trying to find people who do.  i want to help but it seems you have everything worked out in your head a certain way and nothign i can do can help or change it.

she doesnt want to be away from kids.  now im ___ty for mentioning any of it.  she is going crazy... she is crazy.  she is not going to take her life but this is maddening to me too.  its like i have to abandon her here for self survival.  abandon her to die because nobody else is going to check on her. and that is alot of guilt for me

I recorded from my back pocket with the screen off…went off into another room to get it started as needed and kept it in my pocket.  Good luck.

Hang in there, man! If you spend the next four days not talking to her or even texting her, it should improve your outlook a bit.


You sound pretty lost in the FOG here.

She's just told you she doesn't want to talk for 5 days... .and now she's complaining that you aren't showering her with love. What the heck? (Yes, I know the answer to that is BPD... .but really... .)

When is the last time she spontaneously did something nice for you?

You asked a friend to leave so you could have a nasty text exchange with your wife that you aren't supposed to be talking for 5 days. If you were enjoying your friend's company, that was probably better use of your time than texting your wife!


Have you read about trying not to JADE here. The acronym stands for Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. Never do any of these things with your wife--they are all invalidating to her, and will just wind her up more to attack you more. If you can't find something better to say (That isn't one of those four categories), just say nothing. It won't go quite as badly.

Reading your posts reminds me of what crazy stuff I went through with my ex.

You can't save them, but you have to save yourself.

yea she just kept calling.  I know about JADE but sometimes its just so desperate and unfair!

This morning she calls crying.  I am late to work because honestly I can hardly get off the couch in my office to get to other office.  No shower... She calls about as soon as I get in crying saying she does not know how she can do this.

Last night she was just hammering on me again for neglect and I say I have to get rid of her or I am going to kill myself.  She has said that countless times to me.  She took it as me rejecting her like everyone else.  I am losing my mind and I apologize.  Then she says I am planning on killing her.  I do not really remember what happened after that other than hanging up and turning off phone.

Anyways, she calls again this morning.  I try and say I am so sorry she feels this way and its horrible.  She says its cause what I said which I apologize for again and say I do want to help her and love her.  Maybe that is invalidating, but she seemed to respond some. She then goes over how she has nobody and so forth.  No clue what to do and does not know how she will live.  I ask her if she is talking about ending her life to which she says she has no plan nor intention and I cannot get her admitted.  She just saying that in the future from starvation or something else.  I tell her I am asking because I do not want her to die.  I listen for 10 minutes to her and feel horrible for her.  Finally, she is quiet.  I feel she is wanting me to say something so I ask what can be done.  She says nothing.  I try to talk to her about a facility or getting help again.  Doctors, etc.  She says doctors dont care and wont help.  All sorts of reasons from finances to kids being more upset over missing a vacation than their mother dying.  All is crazy.  I try to be rational with her explaining how losing her mother has been devastating to her and I know she would not want to do that to the kids.  Not seeing them for 3 months is better than missing them for years.  I shoot down the finances stuff by just saying we should at least look into it.

Then its back to all my fault for saying what I did.  She isnt going anywhere.  I am crying and frustrated at this point because I am trying but she just seemst o want it magically to all stop.  Saying I do not care.  Then brings up its all my fault for saying what I did.  I say it was horrible and i apologize again.  She keeps harping on it saying there is no accountability.  I ask her what she wants to happen.  She just says I destroyed her.  I finally start JADE.  I say that she has said the same thing to me daily every day for 2 weeks that she wants me gone, and I did say it out of anger and pain and it was wrong, but we both make mistakes.  Please just see from my perspective too.  Does not work.  then it is me bringing up the past again.  I say that it was brought up by her first.  Then its me just attacking her and I am horrible.  I stop JADE and just apologize and asking what can be done crying.  I feel insane.  She keeps on how I do not care and I just want her gone.  I say this is abusive to talk to me like this.  She says its not and I just use that as an excuse to get out of the truth.

I just dont know... then hangs up on me.  Says then all she wanted was me to ask her to breakfast or lunch.  I do not know what to do at this point.  I apologize and JADE again saying I am sorry lets go have lunch.  It did not cross my mind because I do not know if she wants me to stay away or be close or what is going on.  She says I have only asked her once in past 4 months... .(I asked her last week I believe).  She says I never reach out and try to help and only make it about me.  I ask to lunch again.  she says we will kill each other.  I say i want no harm to her and want her happier...

I do not know how to handle this.  She is complete wreck and I try to help then everything is killed off I try.  Then a quasi attack starts.  I panic. I start to lose it.  Then that is used against me.  Then I start to ask why she is doing this and its me making it about me.  I try to state why i did something which is attacking her and not accepting responsibility.  I apologize and just feel crazy.  She states I do not love her and im a horrible person.

I then beg for forgiveness.  I then ask what I can do.  She states its all forced.  I do not care.

I am so crazy I cannot think what to do for her.  I honestly want somebody to walk in the front door, put a gun to my head and blow my head off because honestly, I cannot handle the guilt of knowing if it is partly me.

Its like its all about her and I cannot have any feelings.  I have to fix things, but no effort by her.  I cannot make any mistakes or its seized upon as me at fault and wipes away all transgressions from her.  I forgive... I just do not know.  Everything vision wise seems very tight at this point.  I feel very weak

This is not your fault.

I understand the situation - you realize how desperately you both need someone to intervene, and you don't want it to be you because she will blame you. However, you also realize someone may get hurt. You are a good person and don't deserve to be hurt. And you want to protect her too. You need someone else to help you.

If she was bleeding profusely, you'd call an ambulance. You wouldn't keep putting your hand on her artery.

She's bleeding. You just have to get a way to prove it so you can go talk to a person about committing her. And at this point it seems irresponsible to me that her therapist is not telling her she needs to go to a hospital.

Is she a danger to herself? Is she taking proper care of herself? If not, let her doc know.

Please get a tape recorder. If you can get her on tape saying she's starving, expects to die, this and that, maybe you can have a mobile crisis team come to the house and coax or force her into being voluntarily committed for a while. She is sick. She needs professionals to treat her, not you trying to figure out the right thing to say every second - no one could possibly preform that superhuman feat. It's not your fault.

Don't keep putting this on yourself. Please talk to someone. You never know who will finally put a stop to this nonsense that goes on and on.

Also, it seems like you both agreed to 5 days of no contact. Every time you stop enforcing that boundary, she says things that drive you nuts and make you late for work and make you doubt your own reality. You need to be firmer about this. But if you are worried about her, again, get someone else involved. You are a good person!

What do you do when they go over and over and over the same things and shoot down all your help and its so frustrating cause they are just wallowing in this hole and its going on for 30 minutes then hours and hours.  You cannot get anything done but if you disengage its cause you do not care.  You get frustrated because they do not see that you do care and are trying... .  How do you handle that?

Her only famiy is her sister, and I cannot seem to get her to take this as serious as she should, but I do not think she is capable of it nor able to do anything.  She took her out drinking to talk about it.  Why does booz have to be involved?  Well probably cause my wife might not go otherwise...   Her sister will no longer talk to me.

She is down to just her psychiatrist and she tossed her psychologist basically because of my interactions with her.  Her psychiatrist does not know what all is going on, but my wife is VERY careful in what she says and reads the laws to see how to prevent any sort of involuntary admission to a hospital.  The only grounds I could get her on is violating her probation on teh grounds of harrassment to me or violence to me.  That puts in her jail where she may or may not get help and leads to all sorts of new problems if she does not get any help which is most likely here in Texas as we have teh worst mental health sytem in the country

No, you don't need to do the jail stuff. I think you need to talk to someone, or two people, or three, until someone in the mental health field can help you. And I think you need to save every shred of evidence that she is not taking proper care of herself. Dumping her therapist might be a sign. Talking about starving to death etc. may be a sign. You should tape these conversations. Hurthusband, there are people out there to help you. Granted, they are not easy to find. But no one wants your wife to sit there dying without help. No one wants a police mess or someone to get hurt, esp. with children around. You may even be able to go to court and get power of attorney or something (I'm talking out of the top of my head).

No one wants this to get out of hand - so talk to someone before it does. There are people in your life who have had lots of dealings with mental health professionals - maybe psychologists at your kids' school, docs at the local hospital (and yes I know your wife's parents died there, but you can't rule everything out) and maybe her psych who she isn't seeing anymore can agree to back you up at this point. I think it's good to have something on file in case this comes to a head someday - if your wife breaks a window again or something else and the police come.

You could say to one of your kids' advisors, hey, can I talk to you for a while about a troubling situation at home... . Yes, you will be taking a small risk, but it's so much smaller than letting this go on. Maybe someone will refer you to someone who really knows about these matters and you will wish you hadn't waited so long. You will be so relieved and grateful. I've been through a few situatiosn like this and it felt wonderful when finally someone realized what was happening and stepped in to make it better, but I had to tell a lot of people.

The time is coming for you to take the next big step. You have done an amazing job so far.

I agree that jail won't help her... .and if she doesn't want to be in the mental health system, she can probably stay out of it.

She doesn't want to get help. She wants to blame you for all her problems. It gives her a tiny bit of relief to do that... .without fixing anything and nearly destroying you.

What can you do?

Hang up on her when she starts getting circular, accusatory, or abusive.

If she burns up the phone, either turn it off... .or block her number. (If you need to take calls from work or others)

Being an emotional punching bag for her isn't going to save her, and its destroying you. Give yourself more space from her.

Hello hurthusband   


What I did when my dBPDh was at his very worst and I realised I was saying the same things to him over and over again, was to get outside help.

At the point where your w can't hear you at all is the point where her mental illness is outside your control.

Like you we have a family. I was scared, confused and OUT OF MY DEPTH, so I involved anyone I thought could help.

In no particular order:-

- I emailed my h's P a list of concerns and a timeline of incidents and unsafe behaviours that showed evidence of mental deterioration and risk.

- I went to our family doctor, told him, and he wrote to my h's P.

- I went to an advice centre to make sure that I was doing all I could.

- I started using the police for Welfare Checks and my h safety out of hours. I involved the Crisis services helpline to let them know everytime he had a serious dysregulation.

Despite all these interventions my h still nearly died by trying to set fire to himself. He was eventually detained in a psych ward, and had another three subsequent admissions before his behaviour started to stabilise. My h presented in very similar ways to your w, he was completely out of control.

Realising that his mental illness was not something I could fix, make better, stop, probably saved his life.

If you can redirect the energy you are using trying to help your wife toward someone who really can help her, things will change, they will change for you, your wife and your children.

She wanted me to come back home yesterday.   I agreed to have lunch with her but not go back home since its just back and forth until some stability sets in.  She said she will check with out patient facilities for help now... so getting her some info on that...

very cautious and aprehensive here

GOOD. You need to get more people involved. Not all of them will be as helpful or quick acting as they should be. But don't stop. There have to be qualified professionals out there that will make family life more tolerable and safe for all of you especially the kids. Don't let her take weeks to do something if you feel this needs solving now. And good for you for setting a boundary! You may want to tape record your lunch - just tell yourself it's for your own sanity.

its strange because its literally 2 to 3 days of basically the perfect spouse and then 3 to 4 of about the worst person possible.  Its always a same routine.  Everything is completely different and its just a switch that triggers and doesnt stop.  It is literally two totally different people.  I sometimes wonder if she is both BPD and bipolar since her episodes are a bit longer sometimes

I know she also has tested as slightly on the autism spectrum too.  She also seems extremely paranoid alot

hurthusband, what are you observing regarding her use of alcohol and prescription pills?  Do you think that might be a factor in her erratic behaviors over a 7 day period?  Has she been drinking when she is abusive, and then becomes more compliant when she is sober and aware of her behavior?

*mod*



This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .