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When I found these forums, I was convinced that I was the one with the problem. The longer I am here and the more I read, the more I realize how flea infested I am.

Painting people black or white: Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I realize that I have done it because that it what I was taught as a child. If you get mad at somebody, you paint them black. I might do it for a little while why I am angry but I usually calm down and see how ridiculous or unfair I was being. Now that I have a name for it and see the patterns, it is pretty easy to change because the change of seeing the good and the bad in a person makes so much more sense from a logical standpoint.

Feeling different than everyone else: Yep, I have felt that way most of my life and I realize that a lot of that comes from growing up in a family where the overall attitude was "We are not like everyone else." I have heard my husband say it a lot too. The truth is that I am like everyone else. I have strengths and weaknesses and I have my own struggles.

Passive/aggressive behavior: Yep, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I learned early on that being direct got me nowhere. I could try to be direct with my mother or my siblings or my husband with little or no success. Get passive/aggressive and that got their attention.

Rages and being overly emotional: Yep, I have been there too. I learned early on that expressing an emotion in a normal fashion, ie trying to talk about it led to being dismissed. The only way to convince people (my mother, husband, siblings, etc.) was to put on a big dramatic display. Short of that, I would be ignored. My siblings and I have often discussed over the years that the only way to get help or attention was to have a crisis. When I try to talk to my husband like a normal human being, it gets goofy. He only seems to listen when I get out of control.

I know there are others. I want to start a discussion to see how people have gotten rid of the fleas and changed their frame of reference for what is considered normal. I have a couple of friends that I talk to these days that listen when I talk. They point out when I am being passive/aggressive and they reassure me that I am actually pretty normal. It is weird. It feels good and scary all at the same time because it is so different than what I have known most of my life.

How do I continue to pick off the fleas and change my frame of reference?

I picked up some fleas in my marriage as an adult. They were very easy to drop--as soon as I saw myself doing it, I had a WTF? moment, and maybe did it one more time after I realized that this kind of behavior was pointless/stupid/dysfunctional/whatever.

Habits that I have which date back to childhood are much harder to change. Been a slower process. My FOO had quiet dysfunctions, as opposed to the really big, exciting loud ones you describe. Not sure I'd call them fleas. But whatever they are... .it feels like I'm having to do some parts of growing up that I never got 'round to, and I may be on track to finish a bunch of them before I'm 50.

The hard part is realizing that the behaviors are pointless/stupid/dysfunctional/whatever because within the context of the marriage, they have worked. That is kind of difficult to swallow at times. Yes, this stuff is ridiculous but it has worked on some level. As long as I am still living in the same house as my spouse, it is up to me to increase my levels of self awareness so that I can get rid of those behaviors.


That is a good way to look at it. In some areas, I still have a lot of learning and growing to do.

Am I the only one that is having this kind of revelation and struggling to find better ways of interacting with myself and the world?

No, you are definitely not alone. I may not be having a revelation right now, but I'm infested, too. 

I don't have a whole lot of ancient fleas picked up in childhood; mine mostly come from my marriage. But I am fully aware of these behaviours rubbing off on me, and unlike GreyKitty, I find them incredibly hard to shake. I wish I could tell you all about how I got rid of them and as you say, changed my frame of reference for what's normal, but I'm in the thick of it.

I most definitely have fleas.  After all the manipulation and passive aggressiveness I've been subjected to by my uBPDh, I have found myself treating him the same way when feeling backed into a corner or when my anxiety is high in dealing with him.  I hate that about myself.  Now that we are separated (as of a couple days ago), I intend to focus on working on sending those fleas packing.

I can really relate to the statement that you behave like him when you feel backed into a corner. It is interesting how I didn't really notice that I was doing it. What is even more interesting is that I can look back and see how I gradually changed. When I was being myself, things were a lot better between us. When I hit the point where I pretty much imploded a couple of years ago, I started behaving a lot like him. He didn't like that at all and it sent our conflict levels through the roof.

I felt like the only was to survive was to lay down and take whatever I could get or stand up and fight like crazy. Neither of those options worked. Finding that middle ground where I stand up for what I want without ME fighting or ME dysregulating is really difficult.

I have a 600 pound flea that I'm trying to get rid of, that's the one that keeps me from expressing how I feel and saying what I think in order to keep the peace.

Once that sucker is gone I will never let that back into my life!

I laughed really hard when I read this! It is kind of difficult to get rid of fleas when the head flea keeps spawning!

I did this.  Fighting fire with fire.  'You're going to treat me like this, I'll do the same back.'  Keeping even ground.  An eye for an eye.  50/50.  I think there are all sorts of rational reasons why we do this, V.  Problem is, the context of our relationships is not of the normal type, so it doesn't work. 

It was just this last Christmas that I realized doing it his way was just making things worse, and I needed to change what I was doing, and I am right with you on this same path.

I like the saying that if you hang around a barber shop long enough, you're bound to get a hair cut!  When you are around abnormal circumstances for too long your perception of what normal is becomes distorted.  I've been doing a lot of reading.    

Try not to beat yourself up over it all, bella.  This work IS hard, but you are doing really well.  I like how you are being more focused on yourself and what is within your power to change.   |iiii  The stress of your everyday life is heavy enough, there is a lot on your plate everyday.  The fact that you are able to be making this progress is really admirable.

Keep up the good work!   

C.

When I went down that road, I kind of knew it wouldn't work. It was one of those situations where I was hopping mad and I figured "It is MY turn." I was fed up. I had tried all of the nicey nice crap. I had tried all sorts of things. I took him into consideration in pretty much everything I did. At some point, a switch inside me flipped and I just didn't care any more. I won't lie. It felt really good to relax and be a jerk. Does that make me crazy or mean? It felt really good to lash out at him. I know it is wrong.


The problem I was having is that trying things the nice way didn't work. I sometimes think that things need to get worse before they can get better. My life has been completely shaken up and turned on its head. I hate that it is that way but I can honestly say that nothing ever would have changed if I hadn't found my back bone again.

My husband and I had an interesting conversation yesterday. We were talking about how I want to feel safe in the relationship and that I would like it if he would be more protective of me. His response was something along the lines of, "How can I protect you? You don't need protected. You take care of things sometimes before I even know what is going on." He gave the example of when his dad died. His mother lives 13 hours away. He was putting off going and didn't know what to think or do. I had us in the car and on the road and we were at his mothers house within 24 hours of her calling to tell us his dad had passed. I got us there within 24 hours and that is taking into account 4 kids and all of the preparations involved in securing a house before a trip.

He mentioned that I am a very head strong person. Somewhere in the conversation, I think I realized that in order to be in a relationship with him, I have to pretend to be somebody I am not. I think a lot of my fleas come from trying to navigate a relationship where my husband doesn't feel like he is strong enough to be my husband.


It is amazing how people react to my story. I talk about some of this stuff like other people would talk about the weather and I get looked at like I am crazy. I get people saying, "Oh, I am so sorry." I have to stop and remind myself that what I am saying is NOT normal. That kind of behavior and that kind of relationship is NOT normal. Changing my frame of reference is difficult. I know that I have talked about how my husband and I tried an open relationship. He has tried to normalize things in that context. Even within that context, some of these things are NOT okay. Don't try to convince me that something is okay when it isn't.

No, that makes you honest... .and showing some wisdom.

There are three kinds of people:

• People who WANT to be do mean things to other people.



• People who lie to themselves and pretend that they don't.



• Fully enlightened beings like the Dalai Lama. Well... .I'm not sure... .this type isn't in the second category. More likely they are in the first category with me.

The wisdom part is knowing that while you want to do this... .it is going to make you feel worse, not better in the long run, and choosing (at least most of the time) not to take ACTIONS like that.

We just covered the stages of change in group:

Stage 1: Precontemplation.  This is denial.  You tell yourself that there is no problem, even tho people around you are telling you there is.

Stage 2: Contemplation.  So here, you know there is an issue, but you hum and haw, and think on it, and forget for a while.  Then maybe do a bit of research, but not really making any commitment or actions forward, just sort of sitting on the fence.  Maybe sometimes taking a hard look at your behaviours, but not really doing anything about it.

Stage 3:  Preparation/Determination.  This is when you get to the point where you say, that's it!  Enough is enough!  Something has got to change.  This stage they say is important to embrace, because this is where you draw up a game plan, take things into consideration, maybe join groups or develop support.  Maybe you try a little change, like you're testing the waters. (I stayed in this stage quite a while when I was developing my boundaries.)

Stage 4:  Action/Willpower.  This is when you start to really believe you have the ability to make things different, and understand that there are a lot of resources to help you get to where you want to be.  You begin to try.  You practice your new tools, and you rely on your own will power to make things happen.  This feeds your drive, but also puts you at greatest risk of relapse.

Stage 5:  Maintenance.  Reminding yourself of the changes you've made, and the progress you see is key in this stage.  You become able to anticipate the situations in which a relapse could occur and you can prepare coping strategies in advance.

Maybe you could look at the different 'flea breeds' you have identified, and see where you are in your journey of change. 

For me, keeping a balanced frame of reference has been hard.  It helps a lot to be around other people, other couples.  I like observing the way they interact with each other, and comparing to what I see in our interactions.  And being around normal, happy people doing normal happy things, makes a world of difference.  It somehow rubs off. 

Despite all of the "work" I've done on me lately, my husband's latest rage really brought home to me how I've picked up fleas.  Afterwards, when I had enforced my boundary and our agreement that in order for me to feel safe in my home, he would leave if he dysregulated in my presence and if not, we needed to separate, we had a discussion about it.  He feels terrible that he didn't follow through with the plans we had in place and I know I didn't respond at the time the way I should have.  He also (rightfully) stated that I actually scared him with my own anger in the middle of it. Hell, it scared me and even though he refused to leave, when I did, I was glad not just because I was afraid of him but because I was afraid of my own anger.  I need to work on that myself if we have any hope of making it work.

  ouch.  Living up to set boundaries is so important.  I hope you're okay.  

He refused to respect your boundary?  He refused to leave?


What's your next step, Michelle?

,

c.

The last few months has been tough because we've both been trying to bring the issues of the past 9 years to the surface.  We've had some good talks, he's pursuing therapy for the first time and has expressed what seems to be honest regret and a real wish for me to have what I need most, an emotionally safe home.  Despite that, he knows he is unable to rein in the emotions and I am working on having the right response when he dysregulates but not quite there yet either.  Therefore, we're in danger of adding to the hurt rather than healing.  In several talks, I talked about my previous lack of boundaries and came up with 2 to start.  One wasn't an issue (it was related to when we discuss things and how I wouldn't participate in discussions with blameshifting, which he admits he does).  He's been really good about that one.  The other one was after years of having to flee my home, carrying around clothing/pj's/overnight stuff in my car dozens of times, I was having issues with never feeling truly emotionally safe in my home.  There's always a low grade level of anxiety waiting for the next ax to fall, and trying to keep the tools I'm learning at the ready to respond properly (I'm not perfect and admit that sometimes when already stressed about something or overtired I actually make things worse).  We talked about different ways that I could feel safe in my home and how I could have a boundary in place to protect myself.  I said I needed him to leave during a rage and we talked about signals, things to say and he absolutely (of course, when not dysregulated) volunteered.  We organized plans and back up plans and even had keys to our good friend (therapist who explained my PTSD like symptoms very well to him).  We both had keys but the understanding was that he would leave, and yes, he wanted that in place as much as I did.  My boundary was that if he didn't leave, the consequence would be that we would have to separate for awhile. 

He is heading into confronting some of the deep pain (DBT starting soon as well as he's had an intake into our local mental health organization and has his first therapy appointment next week and also has a referral in to a psychiatrist recommended by our doctor to treat BPD) and for the past month, I could see his own anxiety rising as the little sneaky barbs were coming back into conversation as well as a lot of passive aggressive behaviors which he had stopped for the most part while we were talking things through the past few months.  I didn't call him on most of it, but my own anxiety, expecting a rage rose substantially.  And when it happened, true to this thread and the topic of fleas, I did not respond well unfortunately and it got ugly fast.  I asked him to leave 3 times and he didn't, so I did.  The next morning, after much waffling (done this so many times... .), I came back home and said there wasn't any choice... .we had to separate.  He packed a bag and moved to our friends that day.  It's been a week now and he's really laying on the guilt to the point I'm talking about taking turns leaving for a week at a time so our daughter has both of us and stability in our home.  Not sure how that's going to look now. 

So my next step, as I told  him, is to heal enough that my "fleas" are minimized and I can be the supportive, empathetic and loving wife I can be again.  Truthfully, I thought I'd be sad if/when it came to this but my first two feelings are that I truly am emotionally safe in my home right now, and proud of myself for not backing down despite much guilt being lobbed my way.  And while I am sad, those are my strongest feelings.

 |iiii  Good to hear you two have taken the steps necessary to move forward from this blow up.  It sounds like change, for you, is really happening.  And I'm glad to hear you're finally getting the opportunity to feel safe in your own home.  My H's drinking episodes would spark this sort of dynamic with us, and I still don't feel safe when beer comes through that door when he gets home.   It ain't fun, for sure, but for us, change is happening too, so it's just one day at a time right now.

DBT holds lots of promise, I'm glad to hear he's getting treatment and is owning up to the consequences of his actions.  Your daughter's fortunate to have two parents that are willing to seek help to make life better.    

Stay strong and forgiving, you are doing really well, in spite of everything.  The whole thing is a process that takes time, remember that.   

Blessings,

C.

I know it will take time, and I also know that I really need this time for me to heal, as does he.  I'm still working on the forgiving part and while I know I am very strong, I am accepting that there are lots of moments I don't feel any of that strength in me and just need to regroup and remind myself that I've always done the best I can with the knowledge and tools that I have and that I still am.

As an aside, there was an interesting development last night.  My husband and I both know that his condition most likely was built around his Dad's severe abuse of him as a child (his Dad beat him into a coma when he was 16... .).  In the 15 years since I've known my husband I've watched him practically beg for approval and recognition from his Dad and never get it.  I've spoken to my husband about it, wondering how he can keep going to a man who was so awful to him for something he will never get.  His Dad truly is a "grumpy old man".  LOL  My H says it's because he has forgiven him but I've never believed he truly dealt with it.  Now that his Dad is in failing health and is losing his eyesight, my husband and his sister take turns helping him with grocery shopping and many other tasks.  Yesterday was my husband's turn to spend the day with him and help him run errands.  Without intending to, while they were in the grocery store, my husband absolutely snapped on his Dad for the first time ever.  He said people were staring but he couldn't help himself.  He said he deliberately spoke to his Dad the way he was spoken to growing up and his Dad was shocked.  He kept it going for awhile and finally told his Dad why he was doing it.  He asked him, "how does that feel?  Do you now understand how I felt growing up?".  I can't imagine how painful it was... .  When my husband took him home, his Dad suggested that he leave and my husband refused, wanted to talk about it, and ended up telling him that in part, due to how he was treated growing up, he has spread that hurt and anger to his family and is now in danger of losing us.  They apparently had a good talk that ended in a hug and his Dad telling him that he was tormented often over how he treated my H.  When my H told me about it last night I didn't know whether to be pleased at what might be a breakthrough for him or just proof that he's is REALLY cracking open and might really lose it.  I hope it's the former.

I just read up on some of your other posts.  You've been doing a lot of great work, Michelle.   |iiii

I would have to agree, that this is a good thing.  To have his dad actually admit fault and express his grief over what he has done must have been good for your h.  There is definitely a lot of unfinished business between my h and his mom (he never really had a dad growing up at all, just a bunch of short term bad examples of what a man is).  But his mom is gone now, so from my perspective, your h is really lucky to have the chance to take this step.

I hope your husband has a healthy outlet for his anger, and I'm glad to see that you two are working together to make this happen. 


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V, ... .you said your fleas may be coming from " trying to navigate a relationship where my husband doesn't feel like he is strong enough to be my husband."

We struggle as a couple with this a lot too.  In trying to radically accept who he is, tho, so I've had to accept that he is the type of person that cannot comprehend that he has his own strengths.  And that he needs to live with those consequences.  My job is to stay out of his dramas and to be mindful not to fuel the fires.  It's hard.  I find myself feeling remorseful, and touched by how vulnerable he seems to me now. 

It's like empathy is finding it's way back in my heart, only this time behind a great big protective shield, because I'm not letting myself get back into that controlled state again.  I just can't.  Life's too precious to go down that road again, I'm no spring chicken, ya know!    


c

I have a difficult time not fueling the fires. He called me at lunch today and kept asking how my day was. I kept saying the same thing, "It is fine. Nothing really new is going on." He kept asking the question as though the answer was going to change. After him asking several times, I got a little bit snippy and said, "Let's see. I got up. I rewashed that load of laundry. I stacked up dishes. I talked to my mom. I talked to my brother. I played on the Internet. I took a crap." He got mad at me and said, "I didn't need to know exactly what you have done all day. I am going to hang up on you if you don't stop. I was just trying to make conversation." I don't know what was said next but I beat him to the punch and hung up on him instead. It was never brought up again.

In my mind, I am done. I can't put another ounce of energy into anything other than trying to maintain peace in the home. I am going to slowly start trying to tell him that my life is none of his business. There is a back story to that but I really do need to get to a place where I don't feel bad about setting boundaries.

On Easter, there was a little girl at the get together that kept trying to pull one of my daughters around. My daughter clearly didn't like it but was afraid to say anything. The little girl is 5 and hasn't had a good life because her mother is in jail and she is staying with her grandmother who alternates between ignoring her or yelling at her. I explained to my daughter that, "Yes, we can feel bad for the little girl and want to be nice to her. That doesn't mean that you have to let her pull you around and treat you like a play toy. It is okay to speak up and say, "I don't want you to drag me around."" That was kind of moment of clarity for me because growing up it felt like we weren't really allowed to set boundaries. Now that I have identified that as a problem, I am trying to tell my kids how to set boundaries so that I can put a stop to this cycle.

And to make things even more in your face, I found out yesterday that a nephew is in jail for beating up on his wife that is 7 months pregnant. My mother was all worried about him getting out of jail and what is he going to do about work, blah, blah, blah. I know I must have sounded mean because I have NO sympathy for him. The last time I checked the jail records, it looked like somebody had posted his bond. It makes me so darned mad that everybody is worried about him. What did they expect from him given what he saw growing up?

Vortex, I totally understand that, "I'm not gonna take crap anymore" attitude and I have been there a lot lately. Not proud of how I've responded at times either.  When he raged this last time, I snapped and he told me afterwards that I actually scared him a little. LOL   And yet, I feel like I keep trying and only now do I see that we might actually be getting anywhere.  We are separated and yet, I brought him food yesterday and baked him cookies this week for his work lunches.  I am not getting anything from him (except maybe peace by not being here... .) and I know it's probably not a good idea right now to ask anything.  Although we did discuss going on "dates" once both of us have dialed down our anxiety a bit. 

Hang in there, take care of you and keep "not taking crap".  I know how much easier said than done that is, but I'll say it anyway. ;-)

For me when it comes to the fleas they tend to pop up in the form of things that trigger me.  I suppoce those are the ptsd like symptoms as well.  They pop up and trigger an emotional response. Then I explore that and feel out the emotional response. I don't try to make up a story or it it usually sort of tells me the story I stay with the uncomfortable sensations and lean into the pain.  Those steps sort of prepare me for when I encounter future triggers.  Then when I continue to encounter I analyze the sort of underlying structure the trigger is founded in then I examine each concept that create the sort of signposts of that structure then it sort of unravels and reveals itself and comes back together.

In group, we also talked about doing something called Opposite Action (OA).  It's a pretty simple concept, really.  If typically you respond one way in a certain situation, and you want to change the outcome of that situation, you just practice doing the exact opposite action that you would normally do.

To use V's example, "How is your day?" situation.  You said you responded the same way each time he asked, until you reverted to snapping at him when you'd been asked four times.  So if we want to see a different outcome, we simply do the opposite to what you did the last time.

"How's your day going?"

--the first time, you answered with an off the cuff, short, uncommitted response.  So next time, OA, take a minute to think about your day, and maybe tell him how you are really feeling, or bring up an short exact example of what did happen, to see if he wants to really talk or if he's fishing for your undivided attention.  When my h just wants attention, he will change the subject from what I'm talking about right away.  I'm trying to train myself not to take this personally... .it takes time.

I've noticed a lot lately, that my h will ask stupid, repeat questions when he's fishing for some attention.  And now that I get that, I turn it around right away when I notice and say something like, "My day has been nice and uneventful.  How about yours?"  Then I ask something about what he says, and try to stay engaged for a bit.

I find that some techniques will work now, and not two hours later, so it's all just a learning process.

PTSD... .I think you nailed it Blim.  There are definitely triggers that make me go off.  Knowing what those are is really hit and miss for me.  I'm trying to process what I'm feeling right before I'm triggered, what the primary thought is that set me off.  It's tough because the trigger puts me into the FOG, where it is hard to remember/process things, but that's where reflections come into play.   

 

Michelle: It is good to have a "not going to take any crap" attitude. The problem that I have is that when I get into that frame of mind, I tend to not be as mindful as I would like. It feels like a balancing act. I don't want to take any crap but I also don't want to turn into a flaming jerk either. Sometimes, standing up for myself feels kind of mean because I don't really have a frame of reference for what it looks like to stand up for oneself without it being messy. Does that make any sense? It is one of those things that I am becoming aware of but am not quite sure what to do with it.

Blimblam: Thank you for pointing that out! I do feel like I do fine with the fleas until something triggers me. Here lately, it feels like I am trying to navigate a minefield of triggers. As I allow myself to feel things and look at the reality, a whole lot of "stuff" is bubbling up to the surface. I am going to have to figure out how to let myself feel stuff and lean into the pain without doing something about it.

Crumbling: Usually, when he asks questions like that, he is wanting attention. A lot of times he will tell me, "I am just trying to make conversation." I ask him about his day and give him attention quite a bit. I get really frustrated with it. I am sick and tired of catering to him when he wants attention. I want attention. I want to be heard. I think one of the fleas that I need to get rid of is the tendency to get so caught up in what he is doing and wanting. It is okay for me to want attention. It is okay for me to NOT want to discuss my day. It is okay for me to NOT sit here and have to gauge every friggin' word that I say. I really appreciate the tip about opposite action. When I am feeling up to it, I might give it a try. If I am not feeling up to it, then I need to be able to give myself permission to not do it and be okay with the results. I find that I am getting more and more triggered when people tell me what to do and how to communicate with my husband to have better results. I appreciate the input. It makes it more difficult to focus on ME. I know that sounds so unbelievably cold and selfish.

I really feel the way out of it is through self awareness untill the emperor wears no clothes.

The truama installs a deep sense of shame in us and it feeds the so called inner critic and punitive parent.  No one explaines these concepts better than Michel Foucault, not by a mile.  Crime and punishment by Michel Foucault is a good place to start. Also a thorough understaning of splitting, the best explanation I have seen on splitting is within object relations with the concept of projective identification.  I recommend reading the original paper that coined the term protective identification then as much as you can as the concept was further developed.  thats helped me tremendously. 

It doesn't sound cold and selfish... .it sounds rather healthy, really.  It's time to look after you, I get it.  I appreciate your honesty.

We can apply OA to anything.  I just used that example because it was something you brought up.  The fact that you are being 'okay' with not doing anything and letting go of the guilt is the opposite of what you're reaction used to be, right?  Like I said the concept is so simple, that it can be easily overlooked.  Sometimes things aren't really as complicated as we make them out to be. 

I agree with you about the importance of self awareness. My awareness levels have been slowly increasing but it has been a long road because other people seem to be invested in keeping me unaware.

I went and looked up Foucalt. Did you mean Discipline and Punish?

It is interesting to look at some of the book reviews and themes mentioned in Foucault. I have done a lot of reading about the school to prison pipeline. There is an interesting documentary called "The War on Kids" that is all about how the school systems breed conformity and basically prepare people to live a life that discourages self awareness. Whether talking about parenting, relationships, or any number of other topics, it is all about towing the line and doing as you are told. I have always quietly rebelled. My parenting practices are very outside the norm (attachment parenting, no spanking, etc.). I have been working on myself for years because I have been aware of FOO issues.

I am going to have to do some more reading about the projective identification. I have a feeling that my husband has tried to force me into a role that I can't fill. I am NOT a domineering person. I am not comfortable micromanaging other people's lives at all. That is what he wants me to do. That is what he expects of me. I can't do it. I do not want to be projected into the role of his mother.

What is the "original paper that coined the term projective identification"?  Was it by Foucault or someone else?

From what I have found, it looks like the term was coined by Melanie Klein. I am not sure what the original paper is.

I have been looking more into projective identification and found this brief YouTube video that explains why it is so difficult to understand and is so confusing: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nloftn8XJH0

Someone updated the Wikipedia article a few months back and it's a lot better

Than it was!  I think the original paper was notes on the paranoid schizoid position by melanie klein.  I forget. It is the first chapter in one of her books. What helped me to better understand orojective identification was reading the paper "destruction as a force for coming into being," by spielrein and the book the search for the real self the personality disorders of our age.  Spielrein was a psychoanalyst and former patient of jung she triangulated with junf and fried and left jung for Freud.  I am pretty certain spielrein was a pwBPD and she is the inspiration for the concept of transference, the anima the death drive pretty much all of jungian psychology is based off Jungs relationship and fallout from her in his life. 

For a while when I marriage with my ex-wife with BPD, I thought I was ''Normal''. Yes there was the bout of depression, loneliness that comes with a fail marriage. But I thought I was ok, that I left unscarred and clean of fleas. F*** I was wrong. Started dating recently and this is when I realize I have a gazillions of them to take care of.

The point is that at least, you and I and many others here are lucid about our issues and we want to deal with them. Nobody is perfect, there is always room for improvement. So see it as ways to ''improve yourself'' and one by one, you will get them all I am certain.

I have had the opposite problem. I don't ever recall thinking that I was normal. I grew up in a dysfunctional home. In my FOO, I don't recall anybody ever pretending to be normal. Sure, some stuff was kept quiet by not putting it all out there for the whole world to see. There was some dysfunction that the whole world saw whether we wanted them to see it or not. My FOO is one of the dysfunctional kind that put the FUN in dysfunctional. I am not trying to make light of it but acknowledge that I have pretty much always known that I came from a messed up family. I spent most of my marriage thinking that my husband was the normal one and I was the messed up one. As a result, I allowed him to define my reality for me. Before being married to him, I knew I had fleas but I also knew how to pick them off and deal with them if that makes any sense.

Yes, I have fleas but I feel like most of them come from my husband rather than my FOO. My siblings and I have been rehashing our family fleas for years.


I question whether or not I am truly lucid about my issues. I say that because I keep coming across things that I didn't even realize were issues. It is a new adventure in self awareness.