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She asked to talk to me earlier this evening... .I said anytime... .I was ready.

At several points in evening I asked if she was ready to talk... .or if not... .I was going to go work on projects (house fix up stuff)

Several projects are finishing... .at punch list stage.

Anyway... .I've been more of a STAHD these days.  She has been substitute teaching.  I'm still in a job search situation.

So... .here it is... .

start of email

Please do not accept any more jobs for me on jobulator. I will not be accepting any more jobs until you begin keeping the house clean. I cannot be expected to work all day and come home and clean the house and take care of the kids like I did before I began working outside the home. Our kids have a chore list they should do when they get home... . they should not be expected to do their chores plus all the other work that needs to be done when they get home from school. There are things the stay at home parent needs to do.

During the day when I was home and not working I did these things... .please do them  while you are at home and I am at work:

-Dress the little girls after breakfast, the outfit they wear should match.

-brush their hair

-clear the breakfast dishes and wipe down table and clean kitchen after breakfast.

-sweep and mop the dining room and living room and girls room and and hallway and kitchen and  laundry room... . when you sweep a rug put it back

-put up the scissors and tools and stuff on the bench in the living room... .  dangerous things CANNOT be left out

-change rosies diaper regularly and redress her afterwords

-feed little girls lunch and take potty and put them down for a nap

-hang the girls outfits in their closet... . any clothes that are 18 months or less of  rosies are to be seperated out and put in a tote and labeled and taken to the  basement. Those are winter clothes and she needs her spring summer clothes  now.

-plan the meals, do the grocery shopping and make dinner

-clean our bathroom

-wash and fold the laundry

-clean our room

I cannot... . go to work and come home to a filthy home. I will either stay home and keep it clean and in order myself, or go to work and you can keep it clean and in order. It  does not seem to bother you to live in a mess but I can not live that way. I understand we need money right now and I am willing to work so we have it... . but not if it means I have to choose between working all day and doing everything I did as the stay at home parent when I get home form work or working all day and living in filth.

end email to me

After I saw she sent me the email.  I went and asked her if she wanted to talk... .she said she was now too tired and was going to bed.

Family has been working all evening try to put projects to bed... .get house clean and functional.

She has been sitting on couch... .watching TV.   

I have no intention of debating this via email... .or in person... .but if she is implying that she kept a neat as a pin house... .and I came home to clean house.  That is complete... .utter fantasy... .

I think my goal is to find some stuff to validate... .and not fight about this. 

So... .any guys that can help out with that... .go for it.

FF

This is how she finds out about substitute jobs.


Not sure who expects her to do this... .I don't.  She came home from work and ate the dinner I provided.  She sat on the couch and watched TV.


Not sure what "other things" she is talking about.  She created a chore chart... .very haphazard execution of the chart.



Normally... .breakfast stuff is still piled up when I came home from work... .sometimes it was cleaned... .but usually not.


Not sure if she is saying every day... .I'll just have to talk to her. 



Yep... .did that... .


Very little chance of me doing the clothes sorting thing right... .my wife does kick ass at this.  Clothes passed down from kid to kid... .in totes in basement... .  For having 8 kids out clothes budget is amazingly low.  I'd like to learn this... .but it will take a bit.


Again... .I'll have to ask if she thinks this is everyday.  I would usually clean our bathroom every couple days... .whenever it started bugging me because it was dirty.  Zero chance she did it in between.


I cannot... . go to work and come home to a filthy home. I will either stay home and keep it clean and in order myself, or go to work and you can keep it clean and in order. It  does not seem to bother you to live in a mess but I can not live that way. [/quote]
Note... .she wrote this while I was cleaning... .finishing projects... .managing kids doing cleaning and projects... .and she was sitting on couch watching TV... .and messing with computer.  For about... .4 hours or so this evening.  Two movies worth.  She did keep the 3 littlest ones occupied and out of my way. 

It has to be frustrating to get something like this while you are actually cleaning. Not to mention that I assume you are also doing house maintenance and searching for a job, as well. It is especially tough when you know that the things listed are not things she did on a daily (if even regular) basis.

Is it possible you did a BETTER job of keeping the house clean than she did? So now she has to claim that she did XXX to make it seem like she did a better job? Or are you just doing different things than she did, and some of what she did just needs to get done (Like laundry)? I sometimes find my H sees different things that need to be done than I do.

What are you looking for in this situation? Which of these things are you capable of doing during the day? And which even NEED to be done during the day?

As a thought, you could ask her to point out where she would like to see improvement and validate her as she goes.  It could be as simple as you didn't match the girls outfits, and that set off everything. Or having the tools and/or scissors/sharp objects within reach of the little ones might have set it off.

As a reference, I sweep the kitchen several times a day, everything else daily, but only mop once a week unless there is a mess on the floor. At least one load of laundry per day, or several loads one day and none some other days. I sure as heck don't clean my room every day. And I clean the main bathroom far more often than I clean my own.

Hmmm, this is an interesting e mail. I'm trying to look between the lines at the emotion behind it, not the details. I too have been a SAHM with kids, and while I have standards of cleanliness for the kids and the house, sometimes the best laid plans didn't work out. My priority was the kids, and so, if a child wasn't feeling well, or it was a beautiful day, staying home to make the house look good was not a priority. Matching outfits? Sure, if there were clean ones, but if not, they wore what was clean. Also, kids like the autonomy of picking things out, and what they pick out isn't always what we would. Arguig with a 2 year old over wearing the Pokemon shirt everyday was also not a priority. Admittedly, some of my friends were way more orderly/organized than I am, but clean, happy, healthy kids didn't depend on perfect order.

I am wondering if there is a disconnect between her ideal SAHM image and the real one, which, from what I can tell, she seems to do a good job of it.

Since you have been standing in her shoes for a while, I think you get the idea that positive reinforcement and validation from being a SAH parent is very different from having a job outside the home. I have had both. At a job, there are usually some benchmarks of achievement, and a paycheck. At home, one could clean the kitchen,  but then, after the next meal, the kitchen is a mess. If my H walked in at that point, he'd assume I never cleaned it. Since I do clean it, constantly, he has no idea what it would look like if I didn't ever clean it.  Keep in mind the idea of projection. Your wife may have an ideal of what the perfect SAHM would do, sincerely want to meet it, but- reality is- that with kids and lots of activities going on, this goal isn't always reached. Is she projecting her lack of validation ( not your fault, sort of inherent in the "job" on to you? Is she also seeking validation- that is, if you did all the things she expects herself to do, or does, then manybe you would appreciate it more?

Is there some resentment perhaps of the role reversal. I know it is necessity. I know of some families where the mother has a career and dad is the SAH parent. However, if she has been brought up in a traditional church/home, this may be unfamiilar to her, and not what she wants to do. I faced some of this with my H. I didn't mind taking on the bulk of the traditional role as when I was working, my job was less demanding than his, and I was part time for much of it. But it didn't matter how much I worked as he considered doing the dishes to be something women did and he was not going to do it. Also, I do see something that would (IMHO) be crossing a line: accepting a job for her. I understand your fear that she would not work if you did not, but it seems to me that someone old enough to have a job would want the autonomy of accepting it on their own. I would be angry if my H accepted a job for me. I would feel as if he was treating me like a small child.

So she's on the couch watching TV. I have at one time been a substitute teacher, and being in a class of kids all day is tiring. My H also comes home and veges. This does seem unfair to the SAH parent, however consider that she may have been holding it together all day, trying hard not to dysregulate in a classroom. She may need some time to decompress before taking on things at home.

I see things from your point of view, but I try to present a bit of the other, so that you can consider how to respond. I know my H would love to come home to a spotless house every night, have a hot meal ready, the kids behaving perfectly and all in clean matching clothes, his loving wife waiting on him, the dog bringing his slippers, then after dinner he relaxes on the couch while I put the little darlings to bed, then a night of hot sex.  lol... . Maybe that happens in the movies- from the 1950's ... . As a SAHM, my fantasy was to hear him say " I know how hard you work all day too, so tonight, I am going to take over the kitchen and the kids and let you have a night to yourself", and that was as much fantasy to expect when he had been working hard all day and is exhausted. Some of your wife's e mail sounds like this. I know that if I am in charge of the house and kids, then it's going to be done the way I can do it, with consideration of my H's feelings, but if I let myself be measured by a fantasy of perfection, it would be demoralizing.

Oy.   That's an email.

Here are my thoughts from the cheap seats of the internet.

I am completely with NotWendy.   This is an ambush looking for a circular argument to dump her feelings into.

I really agree with NotWendy, look for the emotion, don't get distracted by the smoke screen of the small details.

As I read it what jumps out to me is the very first line.


I think you can stop reading right there.   She is feeling something about the jobs, and maybe you accepting them.   Overwhelmed?   Fearful?  Stressed?   Something.

And since pwBPD believe their feelings are caused by external events/people clearly this is your fault.

If only you would keep the house exactly as specifically detailed then she could cope with whatever the underlying feeling is.  Which you are smart enough to know is, frankly, baloney.

My suggestion would be, if it was me, acknowledge the email,  say something like man there was an awful lot in there.   I would like to think about some of that.  (which you are doing here)  and it gives you some time to regulate your own emotions.   Honestly if I got that email it would take me a day or two to regain my equilibrium.  I wouldn't let this be about who cleans the kitchen because that is an argument you will never ever win.  Because one day, 3 months from now, something will happen and the kitchen won't get cleaned and you'll hear of "you promised to clean the kitchen and now you didn't".

pwBPD demand rights, commitments and behaviors from others that they are not willing or able to reciprocate.   Don't get sucked in into this circular argument.

I would completely focus on the first sentence.   And maybe parts of the second.   And leave the rest alone for now.

Hang in there form.

'ducks

I've got some thoughts... .

1. There is a fairly direct threat here--if you don't "do things right" I'll stop taking substitute teaching jobs, and stay home and do the stuff you aren't doing right.

I know you are looking for work--will your household financial situation be hurt if she stops taking these jobs? If you have enough savings and other income to last nicely until you are pretty certain to have work... .you don't care about *that* aspect of the threat.

Even if financial impact is an issue, she asked you not to accept jobs for her anymore. Honor that request--she can accept the jobs herself.

2. The other (implied) part of the threat is that she'll stay home and boss you around / dysregulate at you / make your life difficult... .not much you can do 'bout that other than be ready to enforce boundaries.

3. What NOT to validate. Don't validate the invalid.

Also whatever my wife said while dysregulated... .I made it a point not to bring that up when she wasn't... .or even to specifically validate it, or anything. If the issue came up in a normal conversation, I would try to address it / validate it then.

I never got this sort of entitled narcissistic list of jobs/complaints, so didn't have much practice handling it. Besides not accepting jobs for her, I don't see anything in it that qualifies as something you are interested in changing your behavior on. Most you already do your best at; Others What the heck?

From your line by line analysis... .saw this a couple times... .the only fruit in the "You are asking me to do something as SAHD you didn't do as SAHM" tree is explosive. Stop shaking that tree    

... .I don't think there is a good result from directly addressing this kind of list. "Yes, I'll do better." isn't really possible to live up to. "No, this is BS" won't help either.

4. What you can validate (if she mentions some of these things again):

• Finding the house/kitchen/whatever a mess when you come home does suck.



• She feels (whatever is apparent at the time) ... . normal things to validate.



• That you are finding it really hard work to be a SAHD--and that you are impressed with all she was able to accomplish when you were working.

5. STOP CHASING HER.

She's in a pissy mood, and wants to get relief from that by taking it out on you... .or is trying to avoid picking a fight. The best she could do would be have a venting session where she grumbles and complains and gets validated by you (or somebody else).

In this mood, she has zero interest in RESOLVING these problems, or coming to agreement with you about how the house is to be maintained. Don't try to get her into a 'productive' discussion where you can resolve these issues. Trust me... .it won't go well!

I also feel there is a lot of emotion bottled up.

Let's be clear - you can't dress the girl and clean the house to her satisfaction. Most likely you also fall short on some reasonable expectations of her. A house is big, a day is long and you do a lot. We all do smaller mistakes left, right and center. As a man you are likely to put different priorities on household stuff and that can be disappointing and irritating. While the facts when evaluated by balanced and neutral party would be judged as ok - her projected emotions are still a fact you got to deal with. So disappointment, irritation and not understanding how on earth you could combine those colors in the dress of the girl is probably needed. She would do the job so much better. Certainly the bits she cared about   You don't want to focus on the laundry list but you want to be prepared to validate rather than JADE. You may have to listen to some so she gets calm enough to disclose what is really going on.

I have one other point you may want to keep in the back of your mind: Writing is self validation. So whatever she wrote down - she may not feel so strongly about anymore. Don't get too much irritated if that happened and switch gears.

She may be scared, overwhelmed in her job or through the role reversal. She may feel guilty about not doing the house cleaning job - possibly related to her mothers relationship to running a family. Your job search also threatens the current setup. The current setup is disliked but any change to it is a threat as well.

About your job search iff (<- not a typo) you choose communicate - be clear what you do. Be clear where you draw the boundary - this is my stuff. Be clear how it impacts the current set-up and where there is a boundary that protect the family. Stick to SET and don't JADE.

How do you feel about her taking the initiative and writing things down and then coming to you? Is that a behavior that is more or less constructive in the light of other behavior she may have choosen in the past?

 

Jobulator is a mobile phone app.  She approached me to help her... .because I usually have my phone with me... .and she doesn't.

I accepted one job... .she claims she loved it.

I'll look over responses and post back in a bit.

FF

Yep... .that's what I'm trying to figure out... .lately... .directly asking what she is feeling hasn't gone as good as it used to.  Guessing what she is feeling doesn't go well either... .I think this is spinoff of my "effort" to get rid of her telling me my emotions.

So... .right now... .I'm going with frustration... .but I'm open to other suggestions.  She seemed calm last night... .but withdrawn.  I tried to engage her in conversation several times... .she would have none of it.

Really didn't give me a retort... .was just quiet. 

Said she wanted to talk... .I offered several times... .she didn't follow through.


My priority was getting the projects done.  One time things... .after done the rooms will be much "cleaner"... .usable... .livable.  She was one pushing for the projects... .I am happy to do them as well.  She wants them to go faster... .that is clear.  I'm doing my best... .


From what I can see... .yes... .what she claims she does... .and the results I see... .are very different.  I'm not saying she does a bad job... .but... .claiming results that just aren't there... .or methods.  She routinely asked me and other kids to do work that wasn't on "chore chart".  I agree with that... .people live here... .they should help... .not depend on the stay at home one to do it all.  Stay at home should be the coordinator.


Could be... .




She asked me to install the app on my phone... .she correctly identified that I could get to it quicker than she could.  I accepted 1 job for her... .seemed to go ok... .

I'm going to suggest you reply to the email like this: [Note I snipped 98% of her email out to not leave the provocative part even referenced!]

I like Grey Kitty's response. Not sure I would do it in email or f2f - depends a bit on how you want to communicate with your wife.

I now understand this jobulator thing better and it looks to me as if she is moving a boundary here. In the past you were authorized to do things and now you are not.

1) It is her perfect right to move the boundary as this is her stuff.

2) It is healthy that she takes care of herself.

3) PwBPD are insecure and have not very good boundary skills. Instead of healthy assertiveness telling you the rules have changed you are getting some unnecessary aggression bundled with it.

She knows she did a lousy job of keeping house, she can't admit that you can do better so you have to fail too in order to validate her standard. You are not allowed to be more capable of running the house than her, that is what she is emphasizing.

In her mind you have to fail no matter what you do, in order that you can't prove she was incompetent or lazy.

Don't argue, don't attempt to compare, remove any perception she may get that you are even going to suggest you can do better than her, which is exactly what the temptation is to do in order to defend yourself. Hence she is setting the scene for an unavoidable escalation>>then she quits the job.

You know the reality, dont play the game.

If you want to validate her just say you can see how much work is involved in staying home and keeping house (you are actually validating you both by doing this)

Whatever you do don't get into point by point JADE

STAHDs are rarely acknowledged as running a household, they are simply, babysitting and helping with the chores whilst they have nothing else to do. In the meantime the wives are out both supporting the family and running a household and generally being martyrs.

I was a STAHD brought up the kids and ran a home based business (with ex not soBPD) it can be taxing, but got no credit for it, except from kids.

GK has a good point about honoring her request to not answer and accept jobs on the app.

I don't know if the results will be what you expected, because sometimes the request is based on something else.

I know that if I do something for my mom, or make some kind of suggestion, she can take it as invalidating her and raise a fuss, even if she actually wants me to do it.

I recall as my parents got older and more in need of assistance, I was in the situation of if I offered to help them with their finances, I was invalidating her, telling her she was not capable of taking care of it herself. When I backed off, she was upset with me for "refusing" to help her.

Your wife may both want you to help and also feel invalidated. If you back off, she might feel you refuse to help her. You might not win this one either way if you are considering her response, so the decision has to be based on your boundaries. However, I don't think that you can accept a job for her if she has asked you not to. That may sabotage her desire to do it.

Personally, my take on all this is that the email can be taken to one sentence " I don't want to work, I'd rather be home". This isn't reality though. You are looking for work, the family needs the income, and this is the best decision for the family.

One way to respond might be this "honey, I appreciate your working to help us. You are making an important contribution. I hope to find a job soon". That e mail could all be a projection.

(Pls just ignore me if I'm out of place on the staying board, however, I find r/s dynamics interesting and important)

After reading this I felt strongly about these words by another poster:


I think that she has already decided that she would like to stop taking jobs.  Something at work probably stressed her out, made her feel like a failure, and she wants to quit.  Rather than actually admit she feels this way, she is setting you up with a huge list that she knows you will fail at so she can then avoid you noticing that she quit working because she was stressed at work and couldn't handle it. 

I think her true words should be: I am having stress at work and I'm not sure if I can continue this work.  Being a SAHM may be a less stressful option for me to consider.  I'm afraid if I continue with these jobs, I may fail.

I think if you focus on the chore list, you have allowed yourself to successfully be blinded by the smoke she poured in the room.

I think you should find a way to approach the topic about how she feels about working outside the home.  How to address her concerns about this.

If she loved her work outside the home, I don't think she would have sent such an email.

I know this is a completely different take on the letter but here it is.

My first instinct is that she is tired of working.

She is looking for an excuse to quit teaching. She is tired and stressed and wants to stop altogether. So attacking how you are doing "her" job of homemaker is the best way out.

I would approach it with ... ."I get the sense that teaching more is really tiring you out?" Then let her vent. That should also give you something to validate. "Yes it must be tiring and stressful."

Good luck.

Been there, done that!  About all I can say is stay the hell out of her job search, and in no way put yourself in a position where she can claim you are telling her what to do.

I've faced the exact same situation. 

 

Update:  Tried twice to communicate verbally this morning... .she is having none of it.

I let two or three sentences rant out about how I don't listen... .didn't do this... .didn't do that before I exited the room.

Her complaint is that I don't listen... .we don't do joint decisions... .etc etc.

I was "clearly" doing what I wanted this week... .it is a FACT (according to her).  

In her mind... .she tells me things... .it should happen.  She is not ok with me deleting other work... .but additional items she adds... .must be done.  (me interpreting)

Anyway... .I let her know  what I was considering for my plan today... .and asked for her input.

She was scared to give it... .because it wouldn't happen.

I said "Boy that's troubling to feel that way" (lame attempt at validation)

She started with the lists of what she told me and what hadn't happened.  

Me:  I understand that... .I would like your input on what we do today.

She:  Blah blah blah... .last week.

Me:  I would like to talk more when you are ready to discuss today (walked out of room)  Went to get haircut.

Came back... .she had gone to yardsale.

I proposed that I work inside on taxes (what she was wanting... .and I agree it needs to be done) and asked if she cared what the kids did outside for projects.

She gave her own speech... .nothing to do with what kids do right now.

A couple back and forths on that where I calmly asked for input for right now... .not last week... .last month... .focus on what didn't happen.

She said"  "it's obvious that you have thought about this and have your own plan... .I need time to think about it"

I said I will get kids going so time isn't wasted... .and would be happy to change plans later if she wants to discuss it.

She again ranted about how I don't listen... .

"Sorry you feel that way"

You stayed home and didn't clean at all

"That's your opinon"

I left the room... .the rant continued for a couple minutes.

I'm about to go down for breakfast.


Totally agree that GK's email is best way... .face to face isn't working today... .

I didn't get worked up... .or triggered at all... .kinda shrugged my shoulders attitude.

FF

 


You asked me for help on this earlier. I apologize if it upset you.

I will delete the app from my phone and not accept any more jobs for you, as you asked.

Love,

FF



below is my proposal... .above is GKs idea.[/quote]
Please do not accept any more jobs for me on jobulator.[/quote]
You asked me for help on this earlier. I apologize if it upset you.  

I appreciate all the hard work you put in this week substitute teaching.

As requested, I won't accept any more jobs on jobulator.

Love,

FF

Above is my proposed... .can anyone think of a good way to SET in the middle of the thing... .or another tool we can apply?  I feel like a goof trying to figure out my own stuff... .much rather help sort out others stuff!  

 

So... .I need help with an effective response... .or get my thinking straight on just walking away.


A common thing that gets said to me is "I told you about that months ago... ." (use days, weeks or some other period of time)

So... .in her mind... .she tells... .I do... .problem solved.  

If I would just listen to her (be her robot)... .we wouldn't have all these problems

So... .yeah... .I need two responses

to "I told you about that months ago.."

and

"If I would just listen to her... .."

My hope is that I get some good responses... .and stick to them.

I realize... .actual problem solving is not on the menu... .I keep having a fantasy that it is.

Sigh... .

I appreciate you guys... .

FF

I used to be a fan of writing things down... .she wasn't because it would "prove" me right.

We go away from texting and emailing... .so there wouldn't be a written record. 

Now... .she has her version... .I have mine.  There is big gulf there.

I don't like it... .but... .the r/s works more smoothly

If... .she is ok with using the list she sent me in a week... .and apply it to either of us. (what's good for goose is good for gander).  Then I love it. 

That has rarely been the case in the past... .and I doubt it will be case in the future.

FF

Those are circular arguments / blame shifting.

My response would be "I can't deal with this right now."

If you feel like you can validate how pissy/crappy/whatever she is feeling while she tries to blame you for all of it... .go for it.

If you are going to take it personally... .GET OUT of the discussion.

My first recommendation is that any time she doesn't want to talk, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE believe her and honor that request, whether it is verbal or non-verbal.

You can get to work on what you want to do... .without her approval.

You can direct kids to get started doing something... .without her approval.

You are already doing what she previously said she wanted you to do... .and doing something that seems reasonable.

ANY efforts right now to discuss it / get her to agree about it will just turn into a fight, standoff, or her going off in a huff because you don't listen.

As the computer said at the end of the movie War Games. "BPD Dysregulation is a funny game. The only way to win is not to play."

 

Finances:  We really need the money.  If she doesn't work... .it will put us in further pinch.

She claims we won't be able to eat next month.  That depends on her choices.

I've decided I"m not going to argue over money.

She has done strongman tactics in past... .and I haven't "bitten"... .she distributed most of our $30k in savings throughout her own family after moving it from our account to hers.

She has taken the wheel of the family finances... .is in the process of crashing it... .I'm not going to save her.

I don't see anyway it can get messed up bad enough so we don't eat or have a roof over our head... .at that point... .I stop caring about it.  It's not worth the fight.

I have had many people advise me to "take the money back" (including family T last summer) issue her an allowance

and just let the fallout ... .be the fallout.

That was the only advice that I clearly rejected from family T.

I've spent many years listening to her complain about not providing, not making good financial choices blah blah blah.

Not listening to that is worth a lot to me... .as long as we eat and have a roof... .I'm ok.  

She made decisions and "made her bed" financially... .if she wants out... .she can get out herself.  (I don't express it this way to her... .but is my operating attitude.

She does have the skills to manage the money properly.  I've seen it happen... .when she is twisted up emotionally... .it doesn't go so well.

She is high functioning.

Many people express surprise at my attitude towards money.  To me it's a tool... .not a symbol of value.  

Practically speaking... .if there is less of it... .there is less to fight about.  That sounds good to me.

The money thing might need to be new thread... .if that is unclear or you guys think that needs to be sorted out.

Bottom line:  We "need" her to teach... .she will have more financial choices she can make since there is more money... .but it is not disastrous if she doesn't.  :)isaster is no food or shelter.

FF

Agreed... .and this give her something else to complain about.  Very reluctant to commit to "yes I want this done right now"... .

What about times when she wants to talk... .like today... .what she wants is me to listen to her ranting.

When I leave room... .she continues for couple minutes... .gets louder.

FF

1. If she wants to complain, I believe she is very capable of making something up, pulling something from ancient history, or b___ing about what you did today.

Since your actions only change WHAT she is complaining about, not if she is complaining, don't let this mess up your day  :)

2. If you enjoy her rants, listen to them.   If not, go away.  :)

I'm just sayin' that talking to her today (while she is feeling this way) is a game rigged so that you only lose 100% of the time. Keep playing if you like the odds!

Yep... .I have boys outside doing some projects... .while I'm doing some inside office work... .taxes. 

I just went out there and she was sitting and watching them dig.  I gave some instruction to them on how to use a shovel better... .and spade.  Less effort... .more production.

I tried to engage her in pleasant conversation... .her comment was.

"They don't weigh as much as you do... ."

I came back inside to continue what I've decided to do for the day... .

Please evaluate... .comment on the following walk away statements from me to her when I am leaving a conversation.

I'm also fine with just walking away... .but hoping to find something more effective... .if there is such a thing.



Thoughts on... .

"I feel blamed... ."

"I won't participate in a circular argument... ."

"I will be glad to talk when we can stay on topic... ."

"I haven't heard an answer to my question... ."

"I haven't heard usable words from you... ."

The reality here is that she is just in a bad mood, about whatever, for for whatever cause.  Try to not get involved in that.  99.99999999999% it is shame related and her feeling bad about herself.  Yet, when it comes out - YOU - are her problem.  But you really aren't. 

Believe me here, I've faced this over and over.  It's no win.  In my case it is usually her waning my advice opinion on something.  She asks me "should I... ." about a dozen times per day.  I cringe at that no-win question.  If I give her my advice, she treats it as a command or fact.  And when that backfires, I am to blame. 

A few months back I told her I was really stressed out talking about having children, because I felt we needed to develop a stable life today, and that included finances.  SHe interpreted that as me telling her to "get a job".  I said nothing of the sort.  Now, when ever she is feeling down, she acts like I have commanded her to get a job, and she rants that she is not emotionally capable of working and I am putting too much pressure on her and that I am causing her to fall apart.   Yikes.  Real reason?  She feel shame that she cannot take care of herself.  But she has to blame me for that.

 

Max,

I think you are spot on.

I realize that me doing it better... .if there is better... .doesn't fix it... .just looking for best it can be.

Also looking to see if my boundaries are appropriate... .do I leave convo too soon... .too late... .that kind of thing.

What do you say when you exit a conversation... .?

FF

 

So... .I suspect the mood is thawing a bit.

I go out every 30 minutes or so to check on boys... .swing through kitchen to test "temp"

The two little girls (ones talked about in email) are playing on porch.  It seems wife has claimed them for today.

2 year old just has diaper on... .which I'm fine with... .but I thought in the email... .sigh... .

Anyone dare me to use ask her about baby just being in diaper?   

FF

Hi ff,

You asked for some feedback on above.

Are these a selection of what you are saying to your wife on leaving varying degrees of a dysregulated discussion ?

If they are, stop using them  *)

Apart from perhaps 'I feel blamed... .', I would feel very condescended to if you spoke to me using those replies. pwBPD would probably quite triggered and invalidated.

How about, ' let's talk about this later... .' and saying 'I don't want to talk about this now... .' is fine, no further explanations necessary.

I wouldn't bring things up again later or at any point unless your w does first. Really try hard like max says in his post to stay away from this stuff. Your w doesn't really want a response from you, if you pick up the gauntlet it's just JADEing.

FF,

I think WR nailed it. If your wife is like mine, she cannot stand it when you do something in her realm better than she does. It makes her feel incompetent and challenges her sense of self worth, which is probably pretty low if she is a typical pwBPD.

Another part may be pure jealousy. If she got a job flying a recon plane and did it better than you, would you feel jealous? Bet you would. Now add BPD and it is jealousy to the 10th power for her, and the only way she knows to deal with it is to tear you down to her level or below.

 

You retired Navy guys have guts... .

No... .not using them.  Today the two times I walked out of the conversation... .I just got up and walked out... .each time she got louder and louder.


So... .me standing... .louder... .walking to door... .louder... .out the door... .louder still.  Anyone in house could hear her.  I went to front porch and could still hear her ranting by herself... .

FF

Let me up the ante to dare me to ask her why baby is running around house naked... . 

Yep... .all through lunch.  Note... .I'm not particularly bothered by this (nakedness)... .other than the hypocrisy... .

I'd walk away instead of any of those. Here's how I'd interpret each of them... .with emphasis on how they are more about your judgment of her (invalidating) than how they are about your feelings. (which are much harder for her to disagree with)


I feel that YOU are blaming me


I won't participate in an argument where YOU are taking me in circles.


I will talk when YOU can stay on the topic *I* want to discuss.


YOU haven't answered MY question.


YOU are speaking in unusable words.

When I suggested "I" statements, this wasn't what I was thinking about. More like "I can't discuss this now." or "I'm too triggered to talk about this."

Perhaps the best kind of "I" statement you could make right now would be something like:

It is a trap. Don't take the bait; she wants a fight and you are not giving it to her.

 

GK,

I think you are right... .I guess I did it today as good as I can/could.

The reality of my situation is that on some days I have to take the leftover lemons and make lemonade... .and understand that I will be blamed for it later.  Should I say there will most likely be an attempt to blame me in the future.

Email Response:

I have a hard time figuring out PA behavior.  I don't want to do it... .  The nebulous part is that it seems to matter about your intent.

My life is immensely better since we stopped emailing each other about things... .our r/s is better as well.

So... .my thought is that I would not respond via email at all to what she sent me.  But I would offer to discuss it face to face... .when she seems ready.

However... .how do I figure out if that is PA... .or if that is good decision making.

I'm not "afraid" to email my wife... .I believe I have realistic view that little good will come of it.  

Thoughts?

This is so against my Naval Aviator instincts... .  By nature... .we are tough guys... .not afraid of confrontation... .pretty much any situation where a fire is simmering... .we want to pour gas on it... .and see what happens.   

That is the difference between flying into combat and responding to the email. One of those situations is winnable. 

I think you are right in not responding to the email. She will find something in it to get mad about, because that is what she is looking for. She needs to tear down your STAHD abilities to feel better about herself, and she is not going to be satisfied until she does or until she finds something else to feel good about.

While I agree she used the email for her own emotional validation, most of you are missing one point: is there something that NEEDS to be done during the day that is not being done because FF is doing projects around the house?

Maybe this has nothing to do with anything, but with my H, there is usually one item out of the entire list of issues he has that is the problem. It might have been the Jobulator thing. It might have been the sharp implements being left out where the little could get them.  But as a woman who worked outside of the house while H was a SAHD for a few years, I was majorly P/O'd to find the back patio spotless, and four loads of laundry needing to be done at the end of the day(and that laundry had needed to be done for four days and I had asked politely for it to be done three times). Great. The patio looks wonderful. There is no clean underwear for anyone, though. I was also majorly P/O'd to be stuck with canned chili for dinner three nights in a row because he hadn't made it to the grocery store. But the inside of his car sparkled.

Don't dismiss everything as it being a BPD issue before you step back and take an honest look at what you both think needs to be done during the day, or over the course of days. She may have some valid points, but is delivering them the wrong way.

I agree that your wife has a problem with your taking care of the house better than she does, and she cannot allow that.  She has to rip you apart over it so she can feel better. 

I am a decorator and have people compliment me all the time on my sewing, painting, and decorating skills.  My H cannot stand this and refuses to compliment me on anything, ever.  I also keep a very clean home but never get any praise for that either.  He is a master at finding fault with what I do, though. 

I have some questions for you:

1.  Has your wife been diagnosed with BPD and, if so, does she accept this diagnosis?

2.  Do your older children know their mother has a personality disorder? 

3.  How do you manage to post here with her knowledge (assuming she does not know) and do you fear her reading what you post? 

 

Note about tools... .I went and got basket she was talking about.  (small tote).  No saws or anything in it.  A pair of scissors was laying next to it.  No idea who put them there... .

I removed all of them... .and haven't mentioned it again... .don't intend to.

I'm "OCD" about the kitchen... .sink... .loading dishwasher... .all of that.  So... .counters were spotless... .NOTHING stored in sink.  When it comes time to make something... .instead of washing it "real quick" in sink that it is sitting in... .and having to move junk out of sink to be able to wash it... .you open a cabinet or drawer... .get your item... .use it and prepare the food.  As you are considering your next moves in cooking... .rinse and put in dishwasher that is slowly filling up as you prepare the meal.

My wife does it differently... .I do it my way... .she does it her way.  I had not mopped during the day... .but had swept a few times.  

She claims to be fastidious about mopping and keeping floor clean... .every so often I see evidence of that.  She complains about us wearing shoes in house.  Yet... .more often than not wears her own shoes around in the house.  

She now will check before grumping at me about shoes... .I've seen her look down... .see her shoes... .and remain quiet.



So... .honestly... .we come up with different definitions of NEED.  We had previously agreed... .though she now remembers it differently... .to give up some of my time doing other things around house to finish the projects (she complains they take too long)

Now... .the version is that I just did what I want... .and blew her off... .

FF

No diagnosis of BPD.  She is very high functioning.  Family T indicated he leaned more towards PPD (paranoid personality disorder).  He said that labels were triggering... .and his formal diagnosis for insurance purposes was "adjustment disorder".  Primarily because her traits blossomed after an event... .vice being at this level for most of her life.

I have PTSD... .it was not well managed after the same event... .she didn't adjust well to having a hubby working through PTSD. 


My older children participated in family T as well.  I am not aware that they know either of our diagnosis... .but were coached on family dynamics and expressing themselves.  We were coached on how to better interact with them as well.


I'm a bit OCD about my security procedures... .if she figures it out... .she figures it out.  I see this as part of my mental health work.  It's really as much about me getting healthy as it is her... .

Big stride forward in our r/s when I stopped letting her participate in my mental health work.  We do MC together.  She has a T that she occasionally sees now.  I haven't mentioned a word about that to her or EVER discussed or asked what she and her T have discussed.

Hope this paints a picture of the choices I've made... .thanks for questions... .keep'em coming.

Thanks for the explanation, that helps a lot. Yeah, the clean kitchen I'm sure sets her off.


^^^That is important, too. Projects usually do take too long, and that's why they get put on the back burner a lot of times. But they still need to get done. As long as you each get some of the things you consider important on the finished list at the end of the day.

RE: Jobulator suggestion. In person, in passing.

"Oh, hey, about Jobulator. I did not mean to overstep my bounds when I accepted that last job for you. I was under the impression it made things easier for you. I'll just delete it off my phone."

I run a serious risk of getting into political issues which don't belong on these boards... .but I would say that the parallels between responding to that email and combat are deeper... .

You can "win" in combat as an aviator... .as in successfully perform combat operations, but work against the cause of your nation. (Pearl Harbor for Japan, comes to mind, but please don't get sidetracked on specific examples; I'm not a historian, military or otherwise)

FF could send an email which is "correct" and identifies facts, and proves  his case... .a 'win' but it will make his marriage worse, not better.

The big difference is that as a naval aviator, it wasn't his choice when, where, or why to go to war, only to execute it properly.

As a husband and a father, he's responsible for making the choices... .and then carrying them out.

I would up the ante and say this:

"Why aren't the girls in outfits that match?" 

 

The good part of being a Naval Aviator... .is that we are trained to deal with what we have... .have situational awareness about what the reality of my situation is.

Also... .to understand how my airplane is flying... .so that my chances of recovering aboard the carrier... .are as good as possible.

Many times... .I've not liked the way the airplane was flying... .or something was busted... .or had been on fire... .or... .all kinds of stuff.

I had a choice... .I could make the best of it... .or I could get wet... .or... .worse.

So... .I don't particularly like the way my marriage and family work.  But... .I've learned how to fly it better than I did a year ago... .and it does work better.

Still trying to "trim it up"... .so it will fly hands off.  We'll see... .   

Hopefully that made sense to some of you guys... .

Bonus question:

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

|iiii

Thats a BPD type question, sounds like a reasonable question except the facts of the question are twisted to provoke an argument.

Forget it he's rolling... . :)

|iiii

Hey, FF; I'm kinda thinking it might.


What is this "need" then?  Is it about her learning a lesson where money is involved?

Money issues can be a major source of problems in a marriage. 

Hi formflier,

This has been a great thread.  I've learned a lot.  It's always easier to decipher what is going on in my relationship by watching someone elses.   :)

These are my criteria for leaving a conversation that has the hallmarks of becoming circular or deregulating.

Whatever I say has to be a honest and kindly expressed reflection of my emotions.

Whatever I say should not be an attempt to manage, placate, or mollify my SO's emotions.  That's her job.

Whatever I say should not be a reaction to an inflammatory statement or inflammatory itself.

Here is why I think that.

Sometimes I just don't want to deal with another episode and don't express anything about how I feel.  Timing can be critical but it's important for me as an ~equal~   partner in this r/s to fit in a "I statement".   Something as simple as 'I need to take a break.  I will be back in 30 minutes.'   It helps me to recognize what I need.   It's a healthy statement. 

Some of my most carefully crafted virtuoso statements of validation have fallen flat on their faces because they weren't my words.  They didn't really reflect something I honestly felt or thought.   Some of the silliest validation statements that fell out of my head unprepared did work because they were heartfelt.  My SO's highly sensitive emotions really cause her to be sense if I am dissimilating, placating or condescending to her.  Honest, kindly expressed, and mine.   

If I can't do that, I absolutely should not try to address her feelings/emotions.   Like a lot of other posters have said.  Time for me to walk away.   I try to acknowledge I have heard her message.  Very very very simply.  If it's reasonable I'll say something like 'wow you gave that a lot of thought, let me do the same'.   If it completely unreasonable, I just say 'ok'.   

And then the trick is to let it go.   Circular arguments and deregulation episodes have been so damaging for me and my r/s that I have really worked at identifying them and getting out of them.   It's very unnatural to walk away while being told what we need to do and how we are the problem.  Walking away in the face of the ranting is exactly what we need to do.   There is nothing for you down that road.  Don't take it.  Go in another direction.   

The first couple of times I got out I didn't do it very gracefully.   I can do it gracefully now.   And thankfully it's become a pattern in my r/s that my partner can respond to.   

I liked a lot of what Grey Kitty wrote in this thread.   Especially the part about leaving her alone.   It reminded me that it takes a pwBPD longer to return to emotional baseline.   

You've done a great job with this thread and working through this.   My wish for you is that as clarity continues to grow.

'ducks

My job loss has dealt a major blow to finances... .she now struggles more to solve the financial issues she faces.

So... .she "needs" it to not be as hard... .more $$ means it is easier to solve. 

I interpret a lot of this as "wants"

Yes... .major problems around money... .I think she is frustrated at the results of taking on the finances... .making the decisions. 

This year she was the most heavily involved in taxes she has ever been... .this is good.  My goal is that next year she has a choice... .I can be involved and we can do it as a collegial partnership with no accusations and blaming from her... .or... .she can do it herself. 

I've seen she has the skills... .and she understands it much better.

So... .some long term thinking about setting up a boundary... .and choices.

FF




[/quote]

FF, I expect this attitude (and goal, as stated) will just make sure that finances stay a hot button in your marriage for the next year. Think about it... .

I read this as you judging her to be messing up, blaming her for taking the stupid/irresponsible way to do it, and offering her a chance to do it "your sensible way" ... . with the kind of "sensible discussion" that you keep wanting to have with her ... . that hasn't worked well for the last year.

She's gonna smell that a mile away, and nothing good will come of it.

How about setting a goal that YOU can achieve with or without her cooperation?

I'm assuming that you will get a job eventually, and take a lot of financial pressure off of the household, and that would be a time to try some changes.

One I'd recommend is that you make a system with three sets of bank accounts and credit cards (if appropriate):

Ones in your name ONLY, for your personal expenses. (Like putting gas in your car)

Ones in her name ONLY, for her personal expenses.

Joint ones for clearly defined joint household expenses.

[I think I recall you having some rental properties as well... .perhaps that business needs its own account]

She will kick and scream and fight and perhaps dysregulate over it... .but in the end it will make things better--It will provide some clear boundaries around money, and clear boundaries make for less conflict. Every time.

Set up your paycheck to be deposited in fair portions in the various accounts.

Joining the convo late... .and still choosing to join  :)

In the email from your wife I sense growing resentment.

In response to how to exit a conversation that is going in circles, blaming, accusing, or abusive... .this statement has worked for me and was preceded by a clearly stated yet firm and gentle boundary:

"I am going to take some self time to think about this.  When we are both calm we can revisit this discussion."

 

Well... .I got up this morning... .got all kids up... .made breakfast... .brought wife a biscuit in bed... .kids were ready to go to church ahead of time.

As time gets close to go to church she comes in room and starts in about taxes and describes a fantasy version of what I did yesterday about doing taxes.

I tossed rules out the window.  Went to file drawer... .took out two huge files that didn't exist yesterday.  Invited her to sit down and go through what I actually did yesterday and firmly informed her that I would not discuss things that didn't happen.  I told her I didn't like the way my day went yesterday... .I felt bad... .that I had done my best and I was frustrated about the status of things as well.

I reitereated that I would be happy to discuss what I actually accomplished... .but I would not listen or participate in conversations about what I didn't do.

She picked up a vase with a dozen roses that I got for her and walked down the steps... .dysregulated and was downstairs shouting about how I never defend her... .don't care about her... .never once have listened to her.

So... .while this is not part of the rules... .I guess getting her to the point of a dysreg let it come out. 

I have no idea what I was supposed to "defend her" about... .the rest I have heard before... .and I suspect there is nothing new there.

Very frustrating... .I feel good about standing up for myself... .I realize on some other fronts I may have set myself back some. 

What she is asking for is impossible.  I actually was up early this morning reading about DEARMAN in the lessons... .maybe I'll try to set one of those up... .

Thinking about future boundaries... .decisions... .  Next year... .me doing taxes while being b___ed at is not on the menu.

I can do them... .she can be happy... .or mad and keep to herself.

She can do them... .and be happy or mad with herself.

They can not get done and consequences can follow.

Are there other options?

FF

What do you think she is asking for? Why do you think it is impossible?


A lot can happen in a year. What good are you getting out of trying to predict the future?

Is it really b___ing? Or is it an extinction burst?


All of these options seem a but cut and dry. What option do you think is best for the family as a whole? Is it possible for you to make that determination without mentioning whether or not she will be happy or mad? If you took her out of the equation for just a minute, what do you think the best option would be?

 



With her... .it's the "ands".  I can only be in one place at one time... .I can only solve the problems I can solve... .so... .what she is saying I should be capable of doing (and not saying it very nicely)... .is that I should get taxes done, keep house clean, matching outfits on girls, refer to list at start of email (the email she sent me).  She now says... .all that plus taxes... .

"I've told you to get those done and I told you to clean the living room... .so what is the problem... .?"  (those means taxes... .I think)  :)irect quote

She will also say "we agreed on this... ."  when what really happened is she "told me" and in many cases I said no.






This year she was most involved that she has ever been on taxes... .and has learned a lot.  If she has a chance to pull it off next year... .she will need to keep records... .prepare to do it her way... .and all that now.

A lot of that statement is for me... .to remind me that while this year is the best taxes have gone in long time... .I will not repeat this year again.  Lots of other things are on the table... .but a repeat of this year is not.

Hmmm... .extinction burst... .from what boundary or action on my part.  I'd have to think on this


Good questions... .the best option is for her to learn how to do the taxes and actually do them... .and have the confidence, knowledge and understanding that comes with that... .and not depend on me for that.

I should have said "expressing" happiness or "madness".  Maybe I should say "negativity".


Here is the thing... .she has made claims for years and years about how she can do this and that (financially)

She made the big power play with money and took control.  She has asked (some direct and some inferred) to be rescued several times from the responsibility she has taken on.  

I haven't... .and I'm not going to do it.  She either will figure it out on her own... .or she won't.

FF

If she told you to do it and you said no, then it becomes a matter of enforcing your boundary. You said no and now she is hoping that she can badger you or tell you what to do until you comply.


You said that this is the first year that she has been as involved in the taxes. That is a change in behavior on your part. You are involving her more and she isn't handling it that well.


How realistic is that? If you want to go that route, then perhaps you should think about what it would take for the two of you two file taxes separately.


You can't control what emotions she expresses. Even wanting her to express emotions differently is not going to work. All you can do is find ways to protect yourself when she start expressing emotions in a way that harms you.


What are you gaining from drawing this line in the sand? Is drawing this line in the sand helping your relationship or hurting it? Is there an alternative where there is a system of checks and balances so that neither one of you have all of the control?

*mod*


This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .