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I guess, I am slowly back, after a highly emotional past week. This week, oddly, I am stronger, more resolute and I couldn't tell you why. I still think about her but the reasons for not wanting her in my life seem to be taking precedence.

Something that just popped into my little brain or actually has been around for a while is my question to myself about how many times I either said to myself or even her, that I wanted out, that I couldn't do it anymore. After tirades, rages, insults, emasculation's, flash in the pan fantasies she would have about some new orbiter. I mean, I can't even count how many times I had had enough and wanted to escape. Yet, knowing full well that there would be another episode that would stress me to the breaking point, I hung in there.

I thought I would pose this question to everyone because I think it is important that we reflect on how many times we had wished that we could have been transported to somewhere new, with someone new, with someone who would reciprocate even half way.

I think it's important that we remind ourselves, if you felt this way, said as much, that there were many times when we would have given anything to have escaped.

Glad to hear you're doing better!

I had a long reply typed out but I got timed out! Argh!

To sum it up, I felt that many times. "I want out! You're messing with my head!"

You're right. It is important to look back on times like these. It puts it all into perspective!

Hi LimboFL,

I often said I wanted out.

I was frustrated during her push / pull and she often threatened divorce and I would tell her it's over out of frustration.


What made you stay?

I wanted to keep the family together and didn't want to the kids to have a broken home and I was also waiting for the woman that idealized me during our courtship to resurface.

Often she would back me into a corner in an argument... .no way out except to lash outwards.

I must have said: "I'm leaving!" about 6 times in about 4 years total.  She held it against me (with some other stuff as well) and would NEVER let me forget nor she would NEVER let it go.  I felt so guilty at the time for saying it and not being able to handle it in a suitable BPD manner... .but she would really antagonize me!  It's only recently that I see how she baited me.  Even our breakup was based on some underhanded things PLUS baiting me for an argument in Walmart.  Ugghhhh.  when I think about it.

I like how you always bring it back to ourselves in your posts! I wish that becomes second nature to me!

I kind of did that with the message I wrote out, but it got timed out.

One of the reasons I mentioned was me wanting the sweet and understanding girl back again. The one without the disordered thinking! I guess I should really take that further and question why I put up with so much. Even after I wrote out a 4 page break up letter which pin pointed her BPD Traits (before I even knew what BPD was), why did I call her to let her know about it before sending it? Why did I call her? Why did I not just send it? Why, even after seeing it spelt out in front of me, did I allow myself to get roped back in by her sweet nothings? Only to be discarded the next day! Could it just be that I really cared for her? Or was it an amalgamation of things?

I really need to see a T! Childhood trauma alert!

Just order a punch bag from Amazon and hope it arrives pronto! Haha!

When the devaluing started i began to really question the Rs.  I sent her back to her place a couple weekends.  It was only a couple of few months of devaluing before we broke up. But I still wanted and believed in the rs for a long time after the break up.

When I think back on it there is still some pain but Its pretty much healed for me now after about a 11 months of deciding it was over.

How did you get to that place of deciding that it was over? Was it events that led you up to that thinking? Or was it something you accepted over time?

Actually, I never did.  I was all in.  I knew my ex had serious problems, and as the relationship went on it became even clearer to me just how many there were.  But I never considered leaving her.  If she hadn't left, we'd be married now for sure.  The silent treatments were indeed agony, but between those we had a really great relationship.  I miss her.

That ^ is why I stayed.

It was a choice I made.

She became a huge trigger for me.  

Also I set a boundary that in order to allow myself to be intimate with her again she had to give a heartfelt apology. The apology may have come eventually but I pushed for it and as I pushed for it I pushed her farther away.

Then one day after we hung out again she treated me really poorly and I decided it was too painful and I had to heal myself and move on.  

I struggled with the fear obligation and guilt of that decision for a very long time and a part of me would just not let go.  The part of me that wouldn't let go brought me a tremendous amount of pain but the part that wouldn't let go is attached to the deepest part of myself now and the pain I realize was the entire idea of myself I had once identified with being ripped away and was an illusion. All along.

Once (well, it was an only 6 month r/s). I didn't say it but in my head I was like "Am I seeing and hearing what I seeing and hearing?" Basically, after the dinner with her parents (where I was introduced them to) we went out for some drinks and I don't remember how the whole thing started but basically she told me that her ex could hang with her mother in the intellectual department and I couldn't. I couldn't believe that those words were coming out of her mouth considering that just a couple of hours ago, I not only was hanging in the intellectual department with her mother (who by the way is really really sharp), I was helping her with European geography while my ex was sitting here looking at me in total admiration. Anyway, next morning I just wrote the whole thing off as some misunderstanding due to alcohol. Little I knew that it was probably the beginning of devaluation and I was gonna be gone a month later.

I can relate to that in a way. She saw me in a way I liked to see myself. I believe she saw all the good in me and then discarded me so I feel hurt. In reality, I feel hurt that, that which I identified myself with (this idealised version) was an illusion. But does this idealised version not have a basis in fact? I mean she saw good in me to idealise. It's just unfortunate that I'm human! Hahaha!

It's crazy. It's like they purposefully find things (whether it's there or not) to then paint us black, just so they can run.

Mutt,

What kept me in it? Because I had learned about BPD and because I loved her.

There was a lot of muck but a lot of beauty too. The attention seeking (elsewhere) was very hard but she was always home so it was games. It was the hardest part.

Despite all of the fights, push pull etc, I know exactly what finally triggered the ultimate abandonment. We had fought and she demanded I move out, that it was over. I didn't have the funds or family here, so I called the only friend I knew that wouldn't be put out. An ex from high school (I am 47, so not yesterday and we didn't even make it past a couple of months, better as friends), lived all the way across country, she is independently wealthy, no husband, no kids. I called her and asked if I could crash at hers and look for work. My ex catches wind of it a week later and she was clearly tremendously hurt and said "you were going to just leave me". I responded "you told me to, you told me it was over, I had no other option. I was cornered".

a number of months later, when she was clearly developing an inappropriate long distance relationship with the replacement. I questioned her and she said "you should have thought about that 6 months ago". I believe that we could have fought countless more times and both said "this isn't working" etc. But, it was the fact that I was actually making plans to leave, even though I didn't want to, that set the wheels in motion.

I wasn't going to stick around for things to develop, so I did leave, found a roommate solution. It was my deposit on the place but she didn't have the means to repay it, so I didn't have too much extra cash to put down on deposits etc. When she was threatening me to get out, she kept saying "I am staying here, I have the two dogs etc." and in any event I would never have tried to throw her out, ever. Not my style, but I wasn't hanging around for that.

I could have dealt with everything else and was even, finally, learning how to deal with her negative comments and even when she got all stressed. The key was not to say anything but also not be emotionally effected, because she felt it. I learned to just allow water off of a ducks back and often she would turn around after slamming me with some insult and actually apologize (when she was not drinking).

I loved her, it's that simple. As I have said before, I didn't take very well to the idealization, which didn't last very long anyway. I was tentative, too fast etc. No... .I just simply fell in love with her, her gentle, animal lover, kind side. I wrote the queen narc off as part of the disorder. With that said, I walked right by countless red flags. There were many things that should have simply been unacceptable, even if it didn't involve fidelity. These are the things that I now see with more clarity and what will always stop me from ever going backwards. When you are in it, you just don't feel the punishment that is being inflicted on your mental state. I love her still and miss those beautiful moments of connection. I do feel lonely and am looking forward to finding someone new, but I also know that even if it's certainly not joyous, that I am less stressed now, I have nothing but time to fight to get my house in order. If I could strip her of the disorder, I would want to spend the rest of my life with her, but that just isn't possible, so I move on. I am starting to find my footing. While the impact of the b/u has been a soul crushing emotional journey with more tears than I have shed since my Mother passed, I refuse to allow anyone to effect my life, for an overly extended period of time. Call it pride or whatever. I am not completely out of the woods but... .

This board has been instrumental, as has been the kindness of it's members. Thank you for your help!

That was a powerful read Limbo.

I can see from your post the sincerity that you possess and the kindness.

It's amazing that you still possess these qualities and many more even after the b/u and the devaluation, both seemed very very tough. It takes a strong person to still possess these qualities after everything you went through in this relationship. That certainly is a better place to be, in the sense you feel a more postive emotion (one of love and affection) than a negative one. A negative emotion only seems to eat at the soul, mind and heart.

I wouldn't call it pride. I call it resolve and sense of self.

It's almost like they can't operate when things are normal and stable. If things go good, they gotta come up with something to make them bad and go on with the whole pull-push life style.

Limbo creating a nurturing space for your self to heal when you are injured isn't pride! It's self preservation.  

I agree your kindness towards your ex and understanding shows a great deal of character in my opinion it was ultimately that part of myself that saw me through the long cold dark night.  

Haha! Yep!

That's one of the reasons why we wanted out so much. It's insane! They may know they're nuts. It's a shame they choose to do nothing about it!

The funny thing is, my ex said she'll show me what a proper r/s should be like (because apparently every relationship I had been in was crap).   Hahaha!

Yep! Limbo is right! We need to look at the times we've wanted out and despite our hurt, breath a sigh of relief and say "I GOT OUT!"

I would like to echo GrowThroughIt you're sharing true feelings.


|iiii


Do you mean you have different values?


I agree. I didn't realize the effects on my mind and felt PTSD post break-up.


I'm sorry to hear about your mother.

I can relate.  My mother passed 32 years ago.

There are two people in my life that I shed a lot of tears over.

My mother and my ex partner - abandonment.

Yeah, but just like Limbo said, I loved... . ah, hell, who cares, still do... . the girl for who she is. Yeah, sure, pwBPDs tend to lie about things but there are certain things that you just can't lie yourself into or fake (like intelligence for example). Believe it or not, I told her multiple times - "I am amazed by how much you go your stuff together. You got your stuff together better at 25 than a lot of women I know who are over 30" She would kinda wince and go "Well, kinda" Maybe... . she knows what's wrong with her? I guess it doesn't matter, but I'm just sad that her mother ruined her to the point where she is what she is.

Thank you Growthrough it and Blimblam.

Trust me, I still mutter insults at her under my breath. Anger that she could betray me like that and anger that she could toss it all away, even if it wasn't perfect. Anger at how much I gave and how devoted I was to sticking it out despite everything. I held strong. I wasn't going to give up, until... .

Ultimately, though, down deep I will always love her. There is a component of acceptance and restrained forgiveness as a result of the knowledge that I have gained through the years of increasing my knowledge on BPD. It is a double edge sword for us all. We are beaten down by the weight of the shock and emotions of the b/u but somehow are able to gently point to the disorder as sort of the culprit. It is legitimate for us to do so, but being able to assign it to a disorder doesn't overpower the grief, loss and complete inability to process it all. Those emotions prevail.

The end of my 20 year relationship, with my ex wife, wasn't nearly as hard and she ended up finding a replacement too. She had her issues as well, I can assure you, but I deserved it with her. I was young and neglectful. In other words, for my kindness, I am not a saint but have always been loyal and kind. I don't want anyone to offer me too much praise. With my exBPD, though, any non saintlyness was in reaction to her. No matter how much we all learn here, it is just not possible to know enough to react the right way emotionally, when needed. In 47 years on this planet, I have never been tested as I was over the last 4 years. I wish I knew what all of this knowledge and endurance will have in store for me. My hope is that it will make me, as close to perfect as can be achieved by a mortal, for the next lady in my life, whomever she may be. That I will quietly appreciate her more than she will likely know.

I am very appreciative to you both for your kind words.

The disorder or the label of the disorder becomes a roadblock in my expereince.

For me understanding the structure and pattern of the disorder and how those patterns fit into other structures and patterns. Was sort of a revalation for me. 

It really started to click for me when I read melanie kleins metaphor for splitting, just genius and so poetic. It allowed me to understand splitting from within and then I could just see it everywhere. 

Mutt,

Different values? That is an interesting observation. I am very laid back and very accepting (having been around the block a few times and played), she did definitely require me to stretch my value spectrum but no ultimately the red flags I spoke of, or more so actions that we all faced. Some stresses she put my son through (I mentioned in a previous post though, that one night she came to me when I had 50/50 custody of my son and whispered in my ear "I need you to know that right now my brain is telling me that I don't like (name), I know it's wrong but there is nothing I can do about it, I am sorry, I wanted you to know" I was outside having a drink and a smoke and she opens herself up like that. How does your heart not get affected when someone confesses that to you? This is an example of why I loved her)

I think that I might have explained myself incorrectly when I said red flags. It was more about things that I accepted, that I brushed off as not as important as they actually were. Ultimately though, it would have changed nothing. I was blind, I was just forgiving and empathetic. I watched her fight against herself (anxiety, disregulation) regularly. I could see her mind racing and her trying to reel it all in. How does one not want to continue to be there for someone facing obstacles that I couldn't imagine. How to you give up or more so how do you not have admiration for dealing with the kind of existence that would probably send us jumping off of a cliff?

I don't want this to be mistaken for obligation or guilt, but rather compassion and love. When I left her, I felt guilt but she forced my hand and that is what I coming to terms with on that front. I would still be there if she hadn't... . I won't take on that burden any longer.

That's when I knew, I was done.

When thoughts of being free; free from the pain, suffering, abuse, neglect, insecurity, the lie... .when those realities were in my face, and I HAD to face them; then, I was ready to go.

Spending time with an abuse advocate, explaining to me what was happening: that it was ABUSE and not 'normal'. THAT helped keep me from imploding.


At the 7 year mark, I filed for divorce.

I couldn't take it anymore.

But I couldn't do it. We never separated, never parted ways. Re-married.

Why?

I could not have the kids subjected to / suffer because of his evil and me not be there to protect them.

I most certainly would not tolerate his 'trash queen of the day' being their 'step monster'.

So I sucked up it, and resolved it was better for me to be miserable (and me keep it to myself) than to ruin their lives too.

If I had it to do all over again?

I would have taken the kids, left, and went off grid till they were 18.

Honestly? Knowing what I know now? He would have never bothered w/ custody, or custody rights or time spent with the kids... .

Oh, hind sight.


I wish I would have left in 1996.

The 'role modeling / poor example' he set before the children (now adults) has left it's mark.

That sucks, and cannot be undone.

I full heartedly agree,blim. The label is inconsequential. Rather it is simply, as you put it, an understanding of the dynamic and it's impact on us. As has been repeated countless times, and I saw this very clearly, BPD is simply the umbrella under which a slew of other disorder components reside, anxiety, narc, bi polar, you name it. It is a cocktail when mixed with the fact that our partners were all humans, with their own experiences, makes for a very heady brew.

Prior to my ex, I was a respectful non believer in mental illness. Obviously this is no longer the case. As a mae culpa of sorts, I had a non blood cousin who has suffered with a bipolar disorder since we were kids. I never mocked her or teased, ever but I found myself, at times impatient about her depression and her negative emotions towards me. I didn't understand. A couple of years ago (mid way into my relationship with my exBPD), I reached out to my cousin and had our first open chat. She was very open book with me and I explained what I was going through. Most importantly, I explained what I knew and offered an emotional apology for having not understood when we were growing up, as kids and beyond. I told her that I now got it, not that I could feel it but that I understood so much more, how real it is. It was a truly cathartic moment for me, not because I felt relief or because I felt that I had done anything gallant but rather it was just a very strong moment in the course of my life.

Ignorance is not always bliss. Knowledge can be a more powerful liberator.  

I am sorry going places. So much damage done, but you did what you thought was right at the time. Your motives were just and in the best interest of your children. Ultimately, that is what is most important. Sometimes, especially when we have kids and also end up somewhat caring for our partners, our focus is so hard on our not breaking that we forget that we are freaking human too, with our own issues and stresses. The right answers just don't present themselves in any sort of clarity, so we just do the best we can.

There is a reason for military bootcamp. A good portion of that training (not that I have been through it) is to mentally prepare soldiers to be able to think under the most threatening and chaotic situations. Even then it's a strain. We don't get that training. We walk in thinking about love and partnership and then are slammed with bombs going off, gun fire around every turn, heart ache etc etc. We train under fire and our partners had every weapon that has ever existed on the planet. One day, it's a spear, the next a mallet, the next an H bomb, the next rocket propelled grenade. Trying to cope and make sense of life while all of that is happening is near impossible. As mentioned, it was only 3 years into my relationship that I had finally trained my brain not to explode when she was verbally throwing grenades at me. It took three years for me to able to think clearly under fire.

I also keep saying that, on top of our partners and families, we also had to contend with the daily stresses of dealing with some jerk boss, the red light camera ticket, this and that.

We need to direct some of that empathy in our directions.

Ahh I get the sense your studies opened your eyes to becoming more sympathetic.  

It's like we're blind feeling in the dark trying to feel out and understand something but it doesn't make sense.  

I really trully believe it is finding the mechenism of splitting in ones own self that is like the keystone to Really making sense of it all. Not just BPD but society and the human condition.

It was melanie kleins metaphor for splitting in the first few pages of her paper "notes on the paranoid schizoid position."  

It was maybe 10 sentences or maybe less. But it was like a poetic metaphor and so open to interpretation and exploration that I found it within and it was like a domino effect of understanding.

Carl Jung describes it also but it took him thousands of pages and he didn't explain near as eloquently.

Blim, there is no question that my studies, which went deep and continue, definitely changed my perspective on the human condition, in general. I was raised with a Mother who instilled empathy in me but it was relative to physical, economic or any other type of suffering that is tangible. I am also a huge animal lover. But these are things you can see. Mental illness is not tangible, at least not until you live beside it and watch the internal suffering of someone you love. You learn to appreciate that the symptoms cannot be faked or made of stable mind. It is a heartbreaking epiphany, an education if given the choice, knowing what we know, that we would likely decline, even if we know down deep was somehow beneficial. Unfortunately, though, at least in some of our cases, we paid the ultimate price and lost or had to leave people we were deeply in love with, people we had hoped we could live out the rest of our days with. The education came at a huge cost.

Yeah it's gets better but it's a painful uncomfortable processes like a baptism by fire washing away our ignorance.

Lol I can not emphasize it enough though but understanding splitting is the key to understanding the inner structure. It's like the point on convergence to make sense of the shape of the structure.  

Without trully understanding splitting everything would just be some story I tell myself that I could never trully feel secure with.

Blim, I just looked the first 7 or 8 paragraphs of Melanie Klein's piece.

Actually, as you explained it would, it is amazingly enlightening. I am going to dig much deeper but the amazing part is the focus on anxiety as the primary emotional component that rules everything else. My ex suffered terribly with anxiety, she always seemed to be on edge, playing with her hands, fidgeting. In fact, it was my empathy for this that drove me to understand the desperate need to self medicate. The though being, whatever allows you to escape from that horrible anxiety... .I understand. The difficult part was that the medication brought out other character traits that were more directed towards me or resulted in behaviors that were very unsettling. In other words, stunt one, get another.

However, again I didn't until reading that piece realize how much of a central role anxiety plays in mental disorders. I never met her Mother but she was a stern, very formal lady on the phone and very hard on my ex, even as an adult. I can only imagine how she was when my ex was a baby. There was clearly BPD traits if not more, so my ex probably suffered the stress of disconnection from birth and it continued through to her Mother's passing.

While I had never met her Mother, I spoke with her on the phone and while I was completely comfortable with her, the almost stern formal way in which she communicated offered me some light on what my ex must have gone through, especially as my ex (like myself) were quite rebelious (it caused tremendous friction in my own upbringing, not to the point of neglect, though.

Again, quite an epiphany, that anxiety is at the heart of it all. This was the one trait that was always consistent with my ex. Thank you Blim, I look forward to reading more into it all, although I will have to put my smart cap on because there are some very heavy and complex nuances. She is writing, probably, for other doctors with specialties in psychology. Nevertheless, I think I can digest the most important messages.

The part about the breast as the first object of the infant and the good breast for nurturing and when the baby craps it projects it into the idea of the bad breast.

The splitting metaphor.

I didn't do it justice at all lol. 

Blimblam, do you have a link to this paper?  If so, would you please post it?  Would like to see it explained... .esp in ten sentences!  Thanks :)

Here reclaiming:

www.melanie-klein-trust.org.uk/paranoid-schizoid-position

Thanks for the link!

As for your original question, Limbo, how many times did I say I want out?  I would love to know.  A lot and it was only an 8 month relationship.  How soon did I say it?  Soon.  How soon did I think it?  Within the first week I feel sure.  After that, I am sure I thought it if not daily then weekly.  I would love to know how many times I actually said it (he could probably tell me the exact number with days and times included).

I'd love to say we had a great honeymoon period and that his difficult behavior showed up later.  But it didn't.  It showed up immediately.  And honestly, without it, I probably wouldn't have gotten hooked.  I got totally hooked.  And not, I don't think, by needing to be needed.  But by power and ego.  Competition.  A challenge.  Making it be what I wanted it to be.  Pulling a rabbit out of the hat.  Instead, I got a nightmare.     

Can someone provide the link to the Madeline Klein reading?

I read it in the first chapter of this book

www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0743237757/ref=mp_s_a_1_3_twi_3_pap?qid=1429646943&sr=8-3&keywords=melanie+klein

I checked it out from my local public library.

It was the thing that helped me really make splitting click and it was like I found a constant in an everchanging dreamscape to understand the underlying structure.

Splitting is described by many others also and each take on I enriches my perspective.  It maybe be another source that really makes it click for you. 

When I read that metaphor I didn't even finish the paper it was like I found that within me and my shift became my own inward discovery, I don't think I even read anything after that besides this forum for at least a month.  I just connected a bunch of dots within myself and i continue to do so as well

To answer the initial question of the thread: There were two times when I wanted to say "I want out" but was too gutless to say it. It's funny, I don't even know what the cause was, I only know that I was totally frustrated that my needs are irrelevant in this relationship. I only know that we had that two arguments that went vitriolic, but I can't remember the cause.