BPDFamily.com

Given the wide spectrum of behaviours exhibited, anecdotally, by BPDexs as described on this very board, one has to conclude that BPD is a very wide spectrum indeed! An alternative take on things might be that in the worst case stories I've read on here, the ex in question might be more sociopathic than borderline. Both disorders do the 'idealize, devalue, discard' cycle - but the motivations are different. Whereas borderline behaviour is driven by reflexive defence mechanisms learnt in childhood, sociopaths actually take pleasure from their ex's pain and know what they were doing all along. In light of this, is anyone out there tempted to re-classify their 'borderline' ex? 

Mine was never cruel not purposefully so she is not sociopathic but yes some of the stories I read I'm like wow is that BPD or something like aspd

Hi FannyB. Yes I have thought about this a lot too... .

I genuinely feel my BPDx had sociopathic traits. In my dark times I think he knew how much pain he was causing me and enjoyed it. However whenever I may have brought this up during the 3rd recycle... .he appeared extremely hurt by this. He genuinely had such a lack of empathy for my situation (pain confusion) it was all about him... .he just couldn't relate at all to 'walking in my shoes'.

My friends said they thought he would tell me things to make me jealous and hurt me. Confusing and hurtful 

Hope you're ok... .

Morning Missy

It was actually your story that prompted my post. My ex was soo flaky she was obviously BPD. Many of her exs reacted badly to being dumped by her though as they probably hadn't done any research into her behavioural patterns.  Her ex, for example, thought she was a gold-digger who had set out to relieve him of half his fortune.  PwBPD can appear cruel and detached to those unfamiliar with the disorder. 

After my relationship ended I needed answers. Nothing made sense. When I began scrounging I had looked into sociopathic traits. while my ex had some similarities, I couldn't deem her malicious. When I spoke to my t... .she mentioned BPD. Everything came together.

Some food for thought:

Borderline Personality Disorder as a Female Phenotypic Expression of Psychopathy?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323706/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323706/)

This was very much my experience,  Agent.   I read tons on psychopaths,  sociopaths,  co-men desperately trying to make sense of my experience.   While some of it rang true, it didn't "feel"  right.   I do not think my ex was w/o empathy or genuine feeling.   When I found BPD Family and read the very first article,  How A BPD Relationship  Evolves,  I went BINGO!   Everything fell into place.  It finally made sense.   As much as I cringe at having let myself get into/stay in a BPD r/s,  I am so grateful to know the context.   Now,  I really can learn from it,  and move forward into healthy, happy r/s's. 

Interesting article!

Anti-Social PD

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/basics/definition/CON-20027920

My ex has 12 of 13 signs and symptoms.

Narcissistic PD

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568

My ex has 12 of 12 signs and symptoms.

Cluster B

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/personality-disorders/basics/symptoms/con-20030111

My ex is a Cluster B.

He scores 8 of 9 in the ASPD.

He scores 3 of 9 in the BPD

He scores 5 of 7 in the HPD

He scores 8 of 8 in the NPD

I don't think this was the case for me at all. I think my ex- genuinely believes that a relationship with constant anger and fighting is normal, that she really couldn't understand what was wrong when I said that our relationship was dysfunctional and that she thought we were doing good with just a few bumps. Her actions really do seem like a child acting out and responding to pain to me, there really doesn't seem to be a cold, calculating puppet master behind it all. She also doesn't seem to show any of the major traits of other PDs, while she hits all 9 for BPD, so that fits too.

Wow my exbf had 17/21 cluster A, 28/33 cluster B, 13/22 cluster C. My exh had 8/21 cluster A, 28/33 cluster B,  7/22 cluster C. What did I ever see in them? Myself I have 1 for BPD, 3 for avoident, 1 each for dependent and OCD.

This has got to be some sort of record - even on this message board! 

From things my ex said "I want you to feel my pain, i want you to hurt like I hurt" she was VERY aware of what she was doing. So is she a sociopath? Her mother warned me about her but wouldn't tell me more, and both her parents cut her off, and later her entire family cut her off.

Sometimes I wonder.  I definitely saw a look of evil satisfaction on her face when she and the replacement would act out in public in a way to emotionally harm me. I was always minding my own business... .never any retaliation or childish behavior on my part.

I think it was sociopathic. She knew she broke my heart. I never called her a name or put a hand on her etc... .The behavior was just so immature, unnecessary and inappropriate.  Why would a person enjoy hurting someone like that after living with me for 5 years. I loved her and treated her like I did?

Then if she was alone she would go out of her way to walk up to me and be friendly... .like the other "bad her" never happened.

Psycho to say the least. Don't exactly know how to classify it.

I definitely think my ex has sociopathic tendencies. A lot of his actions toward me have been very vile and malicious. He recently spilled water on my laptop on purpose knowing that I do a lot of freelance work on it and that's how I manage to support our daughter since I dont get child support from him.

He would tell me something that he knew would hurt me and had a smirk on his face. When he saw me cry as a result of his words he would tell me to stop the crocodile tears, on some other occasion he would tell me that I have no heart because I never cry... .

From the links going places posted, he has 12 out of 13 in Anti Social PD, Narcisistic PD - 10 out of 12, I didn't go through the other one.

I really can't decide if my ex is a BPD with a sociopath/NPD streak or the other way around. We only dated for 6 months, but there were a few events in her life during that time span that were just tough to comprehend. Like her absolutely bizarre falling out with her "best friend" to the point of her talking about needing a restraining order from her former friend. Or her telling me how she had to fire somebody she just hired because that person decided to do drugs in the restaurant's bathroom and she caught her new employee doing that. (who does that?) Or (this is already after I was gone) one of her former employees posting a blow out one star review of her restaurant on Yelp, telling to the whole world how he was setup to be fired (and that it has happened to others before) and that the manager of the place is "a complete b!tch" and he has no idea how she even had a job in the service industry. At the time, I just wrote all of this off as a restaurant business specific stuff that I just don't understand. A few months out, when I think about all that, I strongly suspect all those events were carefully set up by my tiny former cheerleader girlie for her amusement.

I'm glad this resonated with you bc often times I feel embarrassed for sharing it. IF I do I feel as though people look at me like I am trying to find excuses or justify the break up and that isn't the case at all. I literally sat there asking myself over and over what in the heck had just happened. Where did it go wrong? What did I miss? My T +this board + loads of research led me to BPD. Wverything, and I do mean everything, made sense.

I'm sticking with BPD, and a very high functioning one at that.  My ex hurt me terribly by never being able to acknowledge that I was desperately trying to support her in every way imaginable. She did say hurtful things with the intent to hurt me similarly to how a child would when s/he is angry. 

Bpds do not enjoy hurting people, although it may appear that way when dysregulated. My ex did. He said was fascinated  by historical torture methods and said he read several books on the subject as a child. He also lacks remorse and empathy for his actions. I would not call him aspd, however. I say this because he does not consciously view his behaviors as "game playing" (a sociopath would). I do believe he wants to form attachments to others but cannot(and knows this as he has told me  he lacks the ability to love and is bothered by this. Aspd would not be).  Bpds, on the other hand, do love. I also know they feel remorse and empathy. The feeling, however, is fleeting. Truly what a terrible thing.

What makes you believe your ex is aspd?

My wife does not know how terribly I suffer at her hands.  She had no clue what I was talking about when I told her that the emotional abuse must stop.  

After 2 decades of being her doormat / punching bag, I drew a line in the sand and told her that any more abuse and I would leave her for good.  She responded that she had no idea what I was talking about.  She needed examples.  

She would become dysregulated and start to FOG me, by saying she was upset about this, or that, and then chime in about needing examples of abuse.  When I couldn't come up with anything because my FOG was too thick, she would rage.  I would stop and say- here's your example of abuse- "what are you doing right now?" Her reply is always the same theme- "I am expressing my anger at this situation- It's what healthy people do in loving relationships."  It was only when I would point out to her that no, healthy people do NOT turn anger into a full-on rage attack against their partner.  Healthy people do not do the things she does when she is angry.  Her anger turns into a sadistic emasculating, all out temper tantrum to punish me for all the crimes I have committed against her and our relationship.  

Every single "crime" she attacks me for- every one is MADE UP.  She imagines what I do at work, what I say when with my friends, she has super accurate BPD crystal clear mind reading abilities and tells me exactly what I am thinking.  These are all as true to her as the sky is blue and grass is green.  In her world, the way she treats me is justified because I am the one who is acting out, and needs to be punished.

Sociopathic and psychopathic behavior is different in that both are fully cognizant of what is right and wrong, and disregard both.  It is wrong to steal a car because they need to get across town for a drug deal.  They know this, and choose to take the car anyway.  A person with BPD would take the car across town and not realize they broke any rules.

I do think the lines between BPD and ASPD are VERY blurred - but things become much more clear when you get inside their heads and see what motivations are behind their behavior.  Even clearly vindictive behavior is justified in their minds because they feel the vindictive act is warranted- they don't see the act as clearly wrong and choose to do it anyway.  They do it because feeling = fact.  

This is how they can set out to bankrupt and destroy a love partner's whole life- they have no idea that this is wrong to do.  If they are called out for it, many times the BPD will put them into a serious shame spiral and they dysregulate down to another rage attack.

Sociopaths break rules intentionally.  The rules do not apply to them.  BPD allows people to break rules because they are blinded from how the rules apply to what they are doing.  They do not allow themselves to see that they are breaking rules in the first place.

Surg_Bear

To try and deal with the pain I was in and understand I Googled "psychopath"; turns out my ex isn't one but that was the beginning of the search that led me here, and the reason I stayed, as others have said, is the lights came on immediately once I started learning that BPD existed and what the traits were.

The disorder exists on a continuum, all of our exes are different, and we can't diagnose anything anyway, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it just might be a duck.  There's also the fact that we're only hearing one side of the stories here, there's another partner in all these relationships, and although our experiences and feelings are valid, it's also nice to slap a diagnosis on someone because it makes it "them" and we get to be a victim, which relieves us of a chunk of responsibility.  Learning about personality disorders can clear a lot of things up, help us understand, and ultimately prove centering, along with bonding with folks who have been through similar situations, although in the end it's the behaviors and whether or not they were acceptable to us that matter.  That and what we make it mean: if we're trying our absolute hardest and it still sucks, what does that say about us?  What do we hear that say about us?  Therein lies the gift of these relationships, and opportunity to look hard at our own wiring and whether or not it serves us moving forward.

This is important for me today. I am uncomfortable making the BPD diagnosis for precisely these reasons.  If my ex-partner is BPD, that still doesn't answer my own questions about why I got so involved so quickly, stayed during abusive and controlling behavior, and then felt so destroyed afterwards.  This on me.  

The was a relationship, which means that I was contributing to it as well, with my own problems and dysfunctions. She's gone, so my healing needs to focus on me.  Today my therapist threw out the term "narcissistic wound" to describe the damage done to me by my narcissistic father and emotionally-absent mother.  This last relationship, he suggested, played into my injury and its dissolution ripped the wound right open.  

So am I disordered too? I don't know. But this last relationship was so out of balance with everything. Her with her black and white thinking, me with feeling that she should acknowledge that I loved her and was trying my hardest to be the best partner. But was I? It was all a recipe for disaster and there're a lot more questions than answers.  

To paraphrase an old post I found here:

"If she kicked my dog once, we'd be done. Yet I let her 'kick' me again and again. Why?"

I've been in therapy with a respected CBT for a few years before, during and after my decision to divorce my dBPD ex wife.  I'm a lawyer by trade and really good at remembering what people say and do.  My goal with therapy is not to grind an ax or be vindicated -- I'd just as happily arrive at my own faults as the truth of the matter as I would the fault of my ex.  I know how I contributed to the situation and the end of it all.  I am scrupulously honest with my T when he asks for the weekly download of facts.

He capped things recently by pointing out (as I approached the same idea, from a different angle) that my fault was an unyielding belief that with enough love and forbearance, the 19 year marriage could work.  I don't think I ever realized that it never was working, ever. 

So, I think I have some idea of my role and what I contributed to the situation. That said, I am certain that the cruelest things that my ex said to me were said with a kind of sadistic glee, because every time she said something utterly soul-destroying, she smiled. Some of those things: "I never felt anything for you" (smile), "I never loved you" (smile), "I always hated you, even in college, and I should have just gone with that" (smile), "I hated having sex with you, every single time, and I said I said I liked it more than I did" (smile), (this from a multiply orgasmic woman with whom I had two children, children she asked for), "You were wrong to ask me to marry you, you knew there was something wrong with me" (smile), "I know you married me only because I'd been raped and you felt sorry for me" (smile). 

From my perspective, I would never say such things to another human being, let alone say them and smile.  I am struck by the fact that every one of these statements is comprehensive and designed to hurt as deeply as possible, too.  And every one said with a smile.  In fact, on two occasions, when my reaction to them was noted, she smiled even more broadly. 

To me, this does seem like a kind of sadism.  She was abandoned by her mother at age 11 and I have growing confidence that her father touched her in a sexual way after her mother left.  Past includes what she described as a prior rape (she was attacked and raped while we were dating) and a pregnancy at around 15 that resulted in an abortion.     

Oh but, yes.

Mine was similarly sadistic... .with the smile... .and I like you would never say such cruel things to a person I had been very close too and loved for years. These are very damaged human beings. My ex similarly had Daddy run off when she was five and he took the family dog, too. Had to have emotionally damaged her beyond repair. It perplexing that when a beautiful woman in hurt so deeply in childhood, then as an adult she then gleefully enjoys dishing out emotional pain to her lovers.  It is disturbing.

when i was being accused of things, i saw something similar to a smile. more a squinting the eyes, and a sarcastic nod, like "yeah buddy, youre busted". it used to drive me absolutely insane because it was so self assured and felt to me, so off.

in her more self reflective moments, when id ask her about this, shed tell me she had no idea she did it, that it wasnt conscious.

This is an interesting thread because I as read the posts it seems like alot of us are trying to "figure it out" so that we can learn from it.  I know for me, I continue to live with the fallout from my ex who i was married to for  20 yrs ( but we dated for 3 yrs prior to marriage).   There were lots of factors or dynamics that i have uncovered for myself as to why i gravitated towards her.  Also, since being out of that relationship i had two other encounters (it's hard to call them relationships now) with women that seem to exhibit either BPD or narcistic traits.   In looking back, the one thing that all the relationships had in common was MY desire to feel loved.   And each one filled that void in me.  I grew up feeling like the child that shouldn't have been.  My mom used to tell me she was hoping for a girl after my brother was born.  She left it open-ended like this but I believe that her other behavior towards me instilled something in me that wanted to look for love or feel loved by these women.  All three relationships started out really having me float on cloud nine as they put me on a pedastal.   However, eventually, the masks came off and the party ended- reality kicked in.  

Also, I have been very understanding and empathetic in hearing their pain and their stories of being "wronged" or just things not working out with their past (two of them had been sexually abused).  I don't feel like i purposefully go after women who have been hurt in the past.  Some of my female friends say that there are so many women who have been sexually assaulted etc that it makes it tough to find someone who hasn't been hurt.  They tell me that i just ran into women who hadn't gotten help or don't want to get help.

So while knowing traits of BPD and sociopathic can be helpful, it can also put one into "paranoid mode" - looking for every little behavior that can go wrong and will go wrong. 

so here is what i am doing: first I'm not trying to fill a void anymore.  Even if i get lonely, miss being intimate etc, i take time to remember how trying to fill that void has led me down a path i haven't gotten good results with.  Therefore, its an exercise in self love, being my own best bud if you will.   Second, i do listen and observe carefully for the empathy trait.  For example, one woman that i met online had been with two men and had a child with each.  She left the second man because he went through financial troubles, the first because he wasn't a good father supposedly.  There seem to be a trend thing going on there and i felt like the trend could be that she saw men as "disposable".  Again, i could be wrong but given my history i have to look at those things.

Or the flip side of that is watching for over-judgementalness or contempt for people.  What i realized is that 2/3 partners i've mentioned above had lots of contempt for their ex's.  This one is tricky because i wonder how my story/stories would be perceived to a healthy woman when the time comes to share.  All divorcees can have "break up or war stories" so how does one know whether the future partner is just playing victim? seems like only time will sort that out.

Anyway, I just thought i would share because i think it is great to know what our ex's are/may have been but for me I want to know how to find the healthy partner in the future.  

Perhaps someone can start a thread who has gone from an unhealthy partner to a healthy partner and share the differences they have experienced in that journey. I for one, would be curious to know how things evolved differently from the unhealthy or disordered partners we have had.

Great self awareness truth.  I notice you've been around here for a while, and nice healing and introspection.  Every human on the planet wonders if we're 'good enough' to be worthy of our parents love, at some point or another and to some degree or another, and there's also what happens and what we make it mean.  My parents loved me, although they didn't communicate it well, that British stiff upper lip thing, but they did, yet I still grew up wondering, which may have had more to do with my own sensitivity than what actually happened.  And like you, that situation predisposed me to look for relationships to get love instead of give it, which is the equivalent of painting a target on our back for the disordered among us to aim for.  And then when we enter the orbit of someone who needs to attach psychically to feel whole, and is extremely good at it, it's a perfect storm of need.

So the answer?  Fill ourselves up first, exercise self-love, then we go into relationships to give love instead of get it, the way a healthy relationship works.  And the other piece of that, as we show up from a place of self-love, is to have someone show us they're worthy of that love.  Someone b___ing about their exes and showing up needy is more a project than a partner, and the only way that is attractive is when we fall into rescue mode, which is really just a mindset of I'm not good enough just as I am so I have to DO something to be worthy of your love, so I'll fall into rescue mode full time because you clearly need it, and then I'll always get love.  Sick sht that.  No.  Someone who loves themselves is going to come to us with a desire to give as well, not get, and a partnership of two givers, folks who are already full so they have love to spare, is a recipe for bliss.

Hi Heel

As someone from the UK who had a similar upbringing, this is very interesting to me. Is this a theory you concocted - or was it arrived at via therapy?

Cheers


Fanny

Hey Fanny-

"Brits" is too broad really, historically the English have been seen as stoic and unemotional, while the Scots and the Irish are pretty wild, jeez the Romans built a wall to keep the 'barbarians' out after all, and the Irish have their own damn island, and then the Welsh were somewhere between.  The emotional display of the Queen, Charles and William are pretty representative of the English norm, although as I've gotten older it's become clear that it's more class than country; eastenders from London or Liverpudlians are pretty emotive, especially when they're kicking your ass.  My mother's from Glasgow, another ruff n tumble place, although she's very stoic, which is a trait of Scottish women a little.  Hell, generalizations have limitations, but what is for sure is neither my Scottish mother nor my English father communicated emotions for sht, neither one have even told me they love me, but I know they both do.  Californians handle this sht better, or maybe it's just overcompensation?

You might want to look at the literature on attachment theory.

Adult attachment style and partner choice: Correlational and experimental findings. P.A. FRAZIER, A.L. BYER, A.R. FISCHER, D.M. WRIGHT, and K.A. DEBORD. Personal Relationships

Volume 3, Issue 2, pages 117–136, June 1996.

Abstract

Three studies were conducted to assess the role of attachment style in partner selection using both correlational and experimental methods. Study 1 (n = 83 couples) assessed correlations between partner ratings on attachment-style dimensions and the relations between own and partner attachment style and relationship satisfaction. In Study 2 (n = 226) and Study 3 (n = 146), participants who varied in terms of attachment style rated the desirability of potential partners who also differed in terms of attachment style. Results of all three studies generally suggested that individuals were most attracted to partners with similar attachment styles. For example, anxious individuals tended to be dating anxious partners in Study 1, and they preferred anxious partners over secure and avoidant partners in Studies 2 and 3 (combined data). Thus, not all individuals preferred secure partners. Second, unlike previous studies that looked primarily at partner correlations, there was no evidence of anxious/avoidant matching. In fact, anxious individuals seemed particularly averse to avoidant partners. Finally, ratings of parental caregiving styles (especially ratings of mothers) were associated with adult attachment dimensions and partner choices. For example, individuals who rated their mothers as more cold and ambivalent were less attracted to secure partners. Clinical and research implications are discussed.

My parents were good people but not lovey dovey types. I can recall the family laughing at the sentimentality of the Waltons for example when I was a kid. I suppose it's a possibility that the intensity of the disordered connects to me on a level I hitherto lacked due to suppressed childhood deficiencies in terms of feeling loved?

Anyway, thanks for your insight. At least you've given me some food for thought.  :)


Fanny

That's interesting Mike. I'm not familiar with attachment theory, but having a caring mother and being attracted to insecure partners could indicate that genetic predisposition, or an overly nurturing environment could have the same effect a cold and ambivalent parenting style.

My ex was like this also. I don't think she ever intentionally tried to hurt me. I think that perhaps she felt at times that I was hurting her (even though it was never my intent), and so she felt she needed to lash out. But then when she did, she would swing to feelings of agonizing shame.

My first attempts to learn about my gf's behaviour lead me to Sam Vaknin's: malicious self-love, narcissism revisted. When he spoke about gaslighting or ambient abuse he was pretty much describing how my gf treated me, and how she behaved. Her excessive need for control, and ability to manipulate and the enjoyment she got by playing games with people, it seemed evil.

However, the relationship make up / break up cycle models on this site fit perfectly with how things have been with her for months and months, going on two years.

I feel like the border line traits mentioned in these articles don't fully encapsulate her behaviours. There are definite narcissistic trends. Her lack of empathy and destructive habits and decisions, where she does things while knowing it hurts others and hurts herself in the future.

Good question.  Mine definitely had flashes of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) during painting black BPD phases.  She also displayed some tendencies for the other two Cluster B disorders (HPD and NPD).  Our marriage counselor told me that she thought I was being too dismissive of this being a case of ASPD and not just BPD.  Admitting to myself that my ex was a case of ASPD (in addition to BPD) was not easy, but the counselor is right, my ex suffers from ASPD at times.  With that being said, my ex's BPD traits strongly trumped her manifestations of the other 3 Cluster B disorders.  My ex was just textbook BPD right out of the DSM list, and the BPD symptoms were the most commonly occurring of her PD symptoms and overrode whatever ASPD agenda she might have had. 

Interesting. Not to mention that many BPD's can't keep jobs, let alone a managerial position. Maybe it was sociopathy, or psychopathy, or anti-social, or whatever you want to call it?

It's not a BPD trait if they enjoy hurting you right?

It depends on the motive.  Sociopaths can enjoy hurting other people, or at least lack remorse, where a borderline can enjoy someone else's pain because it makes them feel like they're not the only one in pain, like they're sharing it.

My last one was a sociopath. She knew what she was doing.

My ex wasn't a sociopath. She had a drug problem, and I don't think it was to escape anything in particular. More that she was just prone to addictive behaviors and prescribed meds were her thing. People were her thing too, she liked the high of a new relationship, perhaps too much which is probably why she cheated as she did.

Sure, some of her behaviors were abusive, mean and seemed lacking in empathy-but it wasn't total lack of empathy that caused it. It was The High Vs. The Expectations Of Relationship. "The High" won, it was *ahem* higher on her priorities (see what I did there?)

Everyone does Cost/Benefit in their heads when making decisions, even when those decisions affect the ones you love. Maybe she loved me, but not more than her addictions, and the disorder added an extra cost when deciding to cheat. If she doesn't "do stuff" with the "friend" in her mind, she risks losing them-it's a real and heavy fear. Whereas losing me, well... .I did a good job of letting her know that she wouldn't. Did she know this consciously? I doubt it. It would surely be a surprise, but at this stage in the game it's all the same to me. Cost/Benefit... .that's life.

My ex was a narcissistic sociopath borderline, and he hit them all heavily.