BPDFamily.com

I want to thank everyone for their support the past week or so.  I think I am going through some kind of stage of grief where I feel like closing off a bit and reflecting internally, working in my garden with my hands, and just taking it easy.  I'm thinking of a "secret" day off work either Friday or next Monday.  Hate being deceptive to my wife, but I have to put my oxygen mask on first, and if I told her that I was to take a day off just for me, likely I would get no peace.

I got called to jury duty yesterday.  Potentially lengthy trial.  And you know what?  I hope I get picked.  Why?  Because I can't have my phone in the court room.  That means my wife cant call with every little thing on her mind. 

I also opened up to a few men in alanon.  I think that will be good for me.  I'm also going to up my dose of Prozac. I think I am dealing with PTSD issues as a result of all this. 

My wife is home now.  I'm surprised they let her out, with another prescription for Xanax ( a very low dose, but I am surprised they let her out until she was completely detoxed)  She saw the house in disarray (I made no attempt to clean the destruction she left behind.  And she asked why everything was in disarray... .I had to tell her she did it.  She didn't remember. She also saw the big purple bruise on my chest, and asked if she did that.  I told her yes.  She seemed remorseful.

Of course, after jury duty yesterday, I had 5 messages on my phone from her.  Two telling me she "can't stop eating" (self harm).  And then she was panicky about getting her Xanax script filled (she had ODed on the rest of it).  And somehow I enabled her to go to the pharmacy to pick it up.  I feel ___ty about that.  And then I went to my alanon meeting, she tried to guilt me into staying home saying she is afraid to be alone considering what just happened.

Egad.

Why the hell did they let her out of the hospital?

Why did they send her home?

My guess is that they can't keep someone in the hospital against their will unless that person is a danger to themselves or others. If she was able to convince them that she would not harm herself or others, then they can not keep her there.

Someone else could report her as a danger and I think initiate a court order,but without that, they can't keep her I think.

The thing about people with BPD is that they are able to act quite competent. They would easily pass a standard question test about who they are, where they are, the date, and speak coherently. They are self aware to hold it together, in contrast to someone with psychosis who could not. So unless someone who knows them well ( i e you) reports that she is a danger to herself and others, and/or needs more mental heath care, or she herself makes a case that she needs more care,  there would be no evidence to keep her in the hospital.

That is a good question. What did they tell you? I suspect they have just as a difficult time dealing with this as we do. It seems like once they stabilize them they want to rush them out the door.

Definitely take some time for yourself. You have to take care of yourself first. Don't ever feel guilty about that. I feel your pain about PTSD. It is serious and can have a major negative impact on your health.

Have you ever tried to set a boundary about phone calls? Maybe consider one. Start small and work your way up. It has worked well for me in the past. This will help reduce your stress load. I know it seems insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but anything to reduce your stress right now will help you. I know how sickening it feels to be on edge all the time.

I'm sorry you're going through all of this right now. Hang in there. We are here for you.

Even if you did make a case for her to stay, unless she is willing, or you can prove that she is mentally incompetent, they can not legally keep her ( or anyone) against their will. The definition of mentally competent doesn't include them making sound choices. I ran into this with something my parents were doing, but social services deemed them competent, even if their choices were not good ones (IMHO).

If your wife wanted to go home, and passed their assessment test, then they can't keep her.

   

Yes, this was definitely a traumatic event. You might look up some information on how to cope after a traumatic event. I have been reading a lot about trauma type stuff and it has been very helpful to my psyche.

I am with you! Why the heck did they let her out?

The secret day off would be great. Somebody suggested that to me one time. Don't tell anybody that you have the day off and then dress and do everything as if you were going to work and then don't. Go spend the day driving around, visiting local eateries or tourist spots, and then go home at your normal time like you have been at work all day. Don't view it as deception. View it as self preservation.

 

Gotta ask about your decision on an official report on this.

What is going to be different... .now that she is home?

Does her P and T know what happened?

FF

Yes, P and T know of what happened.  She met with T yesterday and P next week. 

As for official report, I am going to call this afternoon.  main thing I want to know is that if I can file a report that does not get back to her.  If it got back to her, I can guarantee with 99.999% certainty she would react with another suicide attempt.

Boundaries I have been thinking about so far:

1)  I keep all meds in lock box.

2)  She comes to me with a list of what mends she is supposed to be taking and how much.   I dispense them for her on a daily basis.

3)  Over the counter meds like ibuprophen will be in the medicine cabinet in small bottles of no more  than 10 pills each. Sharp objects will be inaccessible.

4) I want contact information for both her P and T, and GP.  feels weird to want this because I want my medical stuff to be my business, but somehow this suicide attempt changes the tables.

And one more boundary - I will no longer answer phone calls or texts from her at work unless it is an emergency or something that can't wait until I get home.  2-3 phone calls per week I can handle. 2-3 per day could get me fired.

All good ideas. The boundaries will help her as much as they will help you. Stay strong. It will be hard at first but I know it will pay off.

What do you have planned for "Maxsterling's Day Off"?

If you can track down a Porsche let me know!

 

Are you going to be able to go to the P appointment?

Is there a pathway to getting back in a hospital or some sort of intensive treatment program?

FF

Just throwing it out there that the boundaries around responding to phone calls might need to be tightened up. 'emergency of something that can't wait until I get home' is pretty open to interpretation. It's likely that from her point of view, most things she calls you about fall in to either category already. Maybe she could talk to her therapist about developing some contingencies for 'when you can't get hold of Max in work hours'.

Enjoy your day off!  :)

Max this is a lot of responsibility on you. My dBPD husband also took overdoses too. The worst time being when he did it in our living room when I was out with the kids for the day when they were tiny and we came back to that... .it was awful. I put in place boundaries a bit like the ones you describe above. However one day I was talking with my counsellor and she said that my H's well being is not my responsibility. She told me that it is not my responsibility to watch him all the time, to monitor his meds, to take days off my work when he threatens to take more pills. She told me it is my job to love him, respect his choices and respect my own. It was a long conversation but after that I went home and really thought hard.

After that I put these boundaries in place instead of my old ones:

1) My husband is responsible for his meds. (I occasionally ask him if he is on schedule with them).

2) If my husband tells me he is low or suicidal I ask him to call his Community Psychiatric Nurse (CPN)

3) If he doesn't and he carries on telling me about feeling suicidal I call the CPN.

4) If he still feels suicidal after talking to the CPN then he goes into 'safe spaces' (like a low level mental health unit).

5) This is a really hard one but necessary for my relationship (I don't know about yours). If my husband feels that he must take overdoses then we can't live together as a family in the same house (I would still love him, support him and care about him but we could not live together).

My husband hasn't taken another overdose since the summer of 2012. He has been low, binge eating, into and out of safe spaces for a while and we have had rough times but he hasn't taken on OD or threatened me with that which to me is a big relief and a burden removed from my shoulders. He also now I think about it hasn't been into safe spaces since early 2014 so things can slowly start to improve.

Max I know you will do the right things for your relationship. I just wanted to affirm to you that you are not responsible for your wife and her actions even though you love her. 

And I echo the others about formally reporting the abuse (it needs to be documented).

Best wishes

PT

 

Max,

had some drive time last evening/night... .and was thinking about your situation.

Couple things... .

If you decision to make a report is based on her finding out... .and what she may do... .is that making decisions based on FOG?

Here is the thing... .lets say you make a report... .let's say she behaves badly... .who is responsible for her bad behavior?


I see what PT is saying about Max being responsible for his wife's stuff.  Long term... .I agree.  Short term... .I think it may be more appropriate.

One of the reasons why I think it good for Max to be involved with P... .so the P can design a treatment plan that eventually gets Max out of the way and shifts that burden to mental health professionals.

Just thinking... .

Hang in there Max!   

FF

I kind of agree... .if that's what the Psych is going to do for Max... .however my experience of having a suicidal partner and interacting with 'his' professionals was that I felt they saw me as a care in the community easy alternative to having to deal with him themselves and/or hospitalise him.

It wasn't till I had my own counsellor and was empowered to withdraw myself from 'being responsible' for my husband that things changed (a really slow and subtle change that is still evolving).  I had been through meeting with his Psych and his CPN and they had written about me in H's care plans etc etc but  that only made me feel more enmeshed and responsible.

But I see where you are coming from FF... .take care of short term and then look at long term. Is a good approach.

 

PT,

Good point... .and a point that should be made clearly at meeting number 1.

Show the bruise... .describe numbers of attempts... .and clearly say... .I can't do this long term.

I can be part of getting her on the right road... .but at an appropriate point (hopefully P will guide this... .)  wife will decide to stay on that road... .or  not.

Max,

I don't know if you have said it clearly... .but I'm certainly picking up the vibe... .that something has to give here... .

Am I on right track with your thinking.


Last thought for now. 

I like to plan things... .imagine the future and how big events play into that.  What just happened... .is a major event.  I hope it is a major event... .AND A TURNING POINT... .something that years from now you can look back and and both you and your wife look at and agree was a bad event... .that had a good outcome.


FF

Hi max,

You are about where I was 2 years ago a while after my dBPDh had been on life support after his second impulsive OD since the beginning of our marriage. ( he went on to take another five OD's and was detained for none of them, but spent short periods of time in hospital for all)

Your wife is home because she is no longer a risk to herself or you, the dysregulation has passed and is over, so she is not detainable based on what she might do again. This is what BPD is, it is in that escalation up to dysregulation that all capacity is lost and and anything can happen. Once your w is back at baseline functioning for her that episode is over with.

What's important now is what you do.

Your boundaries around medication in my experience will not work. ( except for not keeping large amounts of any medication in the house )

It is important that in order for your wife's behaviour around her prescription medication to be monitored and transparent, it is her P, not you, that must manage how her medication is dispensed, the rest is her choice. How you then choose to live with her choices and behaviours becomes the boundary issue for you.

Anything  that puts you in the way of her medication will become a flashpoint for future dysregulations to attach themselves to.  YOU + YOUR WIFES MEDS = DYSREGULATION

The boundaries I put in place were in relation to my h's use of OTC medication, I said if it continued once he was discharged from hospital last July we could not stay living together. He chose not to continue with those meds and with help from his care team, his social worker and his P, they put boundaries in place and drew up guidelines for all his prescribed medication. This worked really well, his impulsive OD's stopped.

What was important for me to realise is if my h wants to OD he could walk down the road to the nearest pharmacy and buy what he needs. What I learnt from here was to exit as soon as i recognised the warning signs that he was starting to dysregulate, or make sure I called an ambulance/police if he threatened or acted on his threats.

What also worked really well for us was getting my h to consent to joint working with his P and care team so with information from me they got a clearer picture of how dysfunctional his behaviour had become. I spent years trying to contain the illness, but it was too much for me. Handing as much as I could over to his care team, being persistent about his risks, hiding nothing really helped us as a family. It took two years of shouting really loudly to eventually get a really good package of care tailored to my h's needs.

Even though he is in hospital at the moment I see this as a positive. He is safe. The care package will be in place for when he is discharged.

Sorry about above in quotes, meant to hit modify :)

Anyway I wanted to say that I shouted really loudly to his care team for purely selfish reasons in order to survive. I realised that if I was going to stay with my h that if I didn't become unmeshed, then our marriage, our family would be consumed by the illness. If his P and care team had done nothing, or had not listened, we would no longer be together.

This ^^ is exactly how it was for me too. Thank you sweetheart for articulating it so well.

I'm not sure if today will be a whole day off or a half day off.  I'm at work now, as it feels like a "safe" place.

W seems to be upset that I am on medications, and upset that I am not 100% upfront with her about what medications I am on.  Of course, that goes 50/50, because the reverse is also true.  But I have to leave her medications as her business just as I want her to leave my medications as mine.  But I did agree to give her a detailed list as to what I was on and for why.  Do you think that act would be reciprocated?   To me this goes back to the BPD control thing - she wants every detail of my life, who I am with, what I am doing, and can't stand it if I even leave out the smallest detail, such as what I had for lunch. 

So I will at least work half a day.  Then see.  My (personal) agenda for today 1) Call about a job interview for a retail job at a local store part time 2) Call our MC 3) Investigate police reports 4) investigate marriage annulment. Of course not much of that is "fun" stuff to take care of me, but still feels like a step in the right direction.

BTW - one more thing my wife is "upset" about - her cousin pretty much told her that she can't deal with her anymore because she is too volatile.

 

Hang tough max!   

Hi Max

I've been following your posts about the recent events with your wife. This is some very difficult stuff to be dealing with. Having your wife home so shortly after what happened isn't easy at all. You've already gotten some great advice from several members over this last week. I'd like to share some information with you that you might also find helpful. It's about having a so-called crisis safety plan for when a family-member has BPD: Crisis Safety Plan: When a family member has Borderline Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272865.0)

I hope this is of  some help to you.

Take care

My BPDh and I both tell each other the meds we take. BPDh used to need so much "privacy", but when I started keeping things private, he got over that! He seems to sometimes realize he does the exact thing to me that he accuses me of. He'd ask me "who's calling you" or something, and I'd tell him who is was, then point out "see, you ask me that too, and I don't get offended by it".

Personally I don't see why she'd need to keep it private, or you? And doesn't her OD sort of change your "need to know" anyway? I feel so bad you are going through all this. I too went on anti depressants to deal with all this with BPDh. I told him I requested to go on them so he couldn't twist it into saying my psychiatrist put me on them. lol

The one thing I have started to accept in my heart and not just in my head is that my wife is on the very severe end of the BPD spectrum.

Her P wants to put her on mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics.  I don't think this is a long-term solution, but for right now - I have to accept how bad she is. 

We did have a "picnic" out of town yesterday that went well.  But it wasn't easy for me.  I was scared to take her out of town,   Of course, she was mad before hand because I wanted to go to alanon meetings and work in the yard (take care of me).  But I got the "you don't care about me guilt trip line) and caved.  The alanon has been great for me recently.   

And this morning, she wanted my help getting out of bed, I made her lunch so she could go to this week long seminar she has been putting off.  And I obliged

I had to tell my boss what was going on.  I think that was the correct decision.  Wish I could post pictures of my garden work on here.   I feel proud of it.

I would love to see, Max! After my BPD break up, working on my garden was something that brought me a deep sense of peace and accomplishment. Seeing the little plants growing gave me hope that things change, and life renews itself someway.

You are in my thoughts, dear Max!

Maric

I talked to a nearby coffee house who sounded very interested in displaying my artwork!  Things feel happier today.  I think the time spend gardening and the focusing on myself has helped. The increased Prozac may have something to do with it as well. 

I think showing photos of my garden may feel uncomfortablye from an anonymity standpoint, so just take my word for it -  BTW, I learned you can get damaged bags of concrete at Home depot for half off!  I made my own flower pot, and in the process of making my own garden path.

Got up nerve to call police today.  They say just by being at my house a report was made.   Unless i wanted to press charges, nothing else to do.  But there is a record of her violence towatds me and herself.

Why would you not press charges?  I thought that is what we were talking about.

FF

Max, I do understand why you are hesitant to press charges.  If you do, your wife will almost certainly try to kill herself again.  Or try to kill you and then herself.  And she could succeed at one or both. 

That's not to say you shouldn't file assault charges.  Her behavior certainly warrants it.  You're between a rock and hard place with this, but I'm sure you will do what you think is best.  At least there is a record of what happened. 

You mentioned the other day that you were going to look into an annulment.  I would think her reaction to that would be the same as you filing charges. I would guess that you feel like you're being held hostage to her mental illness. 

The best possible scenario would have been that she stayed in the hospital and then been moved to a residential treatment center long term so she could get some intensive treatment.  That didn't happen and I'm sorry.  I hope you're doing okay.

Max, I think this is so important.

In this recent crisis, you were taken by surprise and understandably had no idea what would come next. Now would be a good time to gather information and formulate a plan for "next time."

I think that is why I haven't filed a police report.  A police report would likely end her life.  She literally told me so.  It would either mean another suicide attempt, or a very likely (possibly very long term) hospitalization.  She'd NEVER be capable of taking care of herself again.  I just can't get my brain in that place right now.  But I am glad that there is a record of the police being there, of her attempting suicide, of me reporting that I was hit, of her being combative in the hospital, and should be record from our MC of her talking of suicide, and the opinion of both her hospital P and her outside P suggesting she be on anti-psychotic medications.   In that sense, I feel there is at least some record that something happened so it is not completely my word and her word as it was the last time.

Today I am going to download all the photos I took of my bruises and save them to my work computer (a place safe from her).  I'm also going to download and probably start to fill out the marriage annulment information (again to my work computer) - not that I am ready for that step, but I think I need the heads up and the preparation for what may be involved.  I've told my boss what is going on, and she is understanding.  So I don't feel like I am keeping secrets. 

Last night my wife went to bed about 9:15.   I told her I would stay up for a little bit because there were a few things I still wanted to do.  But, I wound up falling asleep in front of the tv about 10pm.  About midnight, she came out to wake me, screaming, how I had left the back door unlocked, left the TV blaring, and was in general irresponsible.  I got all the "I hate you's" and the whole 9 yards.  I tried to then go to bed with her, apologized, but she kept at it.  Eventually went back to the sofa to sleep.  She was still fuming this morning.

Really it's not about me falling asleep in front of the TV. NO RATIONAL ADULT WOULD BE THAT UPSET ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT.   

Max,

I hope that you can separate your decisions... .from her attempts to end her life.  It appears that she has successfully made you and your decisions responsible for her life.  That is a heavy burden to bear when you are trying to make decisions.

Is that a burden you should be bearing?

I'm not following long term hospitalization and never being able to take care of herself.

I'm not seeing guarantees either way.  Is there something I'm missing?

I'm glad you are feeling open with work... .your boss.  Is there anyone else you think you should be opening up to?

FF

H

Good questions, FF.

Basically, she told me "her life would be over" if I pressed charges, yet in the same breath recognized that I could press charges if I wanted to.   And it would be over.  Despite her claims that she has always taken care of herself, that's not really true.  She's not capable of working, and never has.  Her $1200 per month disability check won't get her far.  And Medicaid won't get her the psych help she needs.  She's alienated herself from most family, and those that she hasn't would probably tire of her quickly.  She has one friend she could probably live with, but my feeling is that without me 75% chance she is either dead, permanently in a hospital, or on the street in 2 years.  She recently had one more cousin tell her she wanted no more contact, plus one more friend do the same.  this morning she was crying in my arms that she needed me.  She couldn't not even feed herself... .

This isn't one of these cases where I let her go and she finds a way to stand on her own feet.  I've learned recently that she was not even doing that before she met me.  No, it's not a burden I should be bearing.  But it is a burden I will bear until I can help her figure something else out.

As for other resources - other men in alanon have been a lifesaver.

 

I think there are options in between... .life over... .and her staying the same.

If you press charges... .is marriage over?  I don't see that... .

That could be more leverage that you need... .that she needs... .

So... .did you go to the P appointment? 

Somehow... .there has to be some intensive hospital or day treatment... .to stabilize her... .before the real work begins.

FF

Max, what a mess you are in.  Everything seems to be resting on you to save her from herself.  Is there any way she could be committed against her will?  What would that take?  Do her doctors realize just how serious the situation is?  How bad does it have to get before someone who has the authority to do so will take some action to get her some long-term care? 

I know that's a lot of questions.  I just think you cannot keep doing what you're doing.  She will little by little destroy you, despite your efforts to take care of yourself. 

My feeling is that if I press charges - 99.99% likely the marriage will be over, and >95% chance her life will be over, either figuratively or literally.  As much as I see her as a resilient and strong person, I see NOTHING else she has to build from right now.  She even told me the other night that before she met me she was engaging in risky behavior in hopes she would be murdered  :'(

Verbena - here's my hope.  We met with an OBGYN as a pre-conception appointment the other day. I initially did not want to go, but then I realized that ANY doctor visit would be good for her.  OBGYN told her flat out she needs to be stable - medicine or no medicine.  OBGYS said she would contact her P and discuss medicine options.  W was open with OBGYN about recent suicide attempt.  P and MC are friends, as are P and her T.  My hope is amongst all of them they discuss her case and they basically do an intervention - tell her she needs very serious help.  She does.  She got into a verbal argument with her T the other day.  I also called MC (who is on vacation) let MC know what was going on, that everyone is advising me to press domestic violence charges, and that I was not sure what to do and needed advice.  MC hasn't called back yet, but SOMETHING has to give here.   

I read many stories on here, and I am coming to the conclusion that my wife is at the very severe end of the BPD spectrum. 

I called a domestic violence advocacy group for men... .  I think that was a good thing to do.

Max I am sharing my story as a case of one. It may or may not apply to your wife, so make your best decision about that. We kids witnessed a couple of mom's suicide attempts, but they were handled quickly and my parents acted as if it never happened.  Mom did a good job of pretending she was fine, but we knew otherwise. We didn't think she could function on her own, or hold a job. One difference was that my father had financial resources and she didn't need to.

When dad died, we had all the fears you have about your wife. Dad had enough resources for them, and later her, to have help staying at home. However, since she seemed to need Dad's constant attention, we didn't think she would be able to stay on her own without someone monitoring her 24/7 like he did. We feared she would harm herself.

However, we made a different decision. Now, we don't want anything to happen to her, but none of us can monitor her 24/7- we have our own families, jobs. We chose to love her and care about her in a different way. We also realized that if she wanted to live on her own, she had to show that she could be responsible for her well being, and if she could not be, we would have her evaluated, assume power of attorney, and arrange for her to have round the clock medical care. Since we don't live close enough to help her immediately, we would call 911 if we had any fears whatsoever.

I don't dismiss suicide threats, and so we would not hesitate to call help for her. She knows we care about her, but she also knows exactly what we would do- and we consider it a miracle but she has not ( thank goodness) made any threats. This makes me wonder if my father's constant attention in some way was a secondary gain, and the fact that she knows we can not do this is a deterrent as she does not want that much medical supervision, but if she needed it, we would do what we can to make sure she gets it.

I know that you need to make the best decision for you and your wife, but if she is that unstable - is there anyway to get more medical care/supervision for her? Can you have her hospitalized if you fear she is unstable?

Wow, Max, you are getting some synergy going!  |iiii And look at all the documentation and professional following you already have.

It looks as though you are already not alone anymore. Bravo, Max.

I agree Max, it is good that you are seeking professional help and also spoke to the police. I hope that this leads to the right help for your wife... .and you.

Maybe you will be able to find the path to having some of the legal powers that Notwendy has mentioned: power of attorney, legal guardianship of a vulnerable adult, or whatever might be most appropriate to your situation. It's kind of hard to see how you go forward from here without the power of court documents supporting you so that things aren't chaotic and police-involved.

I can't believe you wouldn't have a strong case and many people, both family and mental health professionals, backing you up in this type of effort to protect your wife and obtain services for her.

I did call two domestic violence advocacy places for men.  Waiting to hear back.  I think that is a good step.  Alanon was helpful again last night.  Really truly was.  Tomorrow is my P appointment, may take the whole day off (in secret)

I feel like I am taking a risk because of recent serious dysregulations, but taking a camping trip with W this weekend.  We won't be too far from civilization, just in case.  But I am that far gone - worried about the screaming during the car ride. 

I'm slowly, every so slowly coming to the realization this is not just BPD, but a good chunk of PTSD, and a bad case of both of them.  She goes to P today, and P again tomorrow.  Both think she should be on anti-psychotic meds.  Not sure if I disagree.  Some times, she's fine, but other times, she's overly anxious and freaking out because she lost her hair tie.

My garden is growing well. Giving me  peace.

Max, I've read several of your posts about your wife screaming at you while you are driving.  I've read posts where you said she can scream for hours.  That's really scary and not safe at all. 

Is there any way to let her know you won't tolerate that and have a plan to stop it?  I don't know what that would be if you are trapped on a freeway with her, but it's just not acceptable in my book and you don't deserve that. 

Also, I know you've said you are trying to document her behavior better.  Could you record some of these screaming episodes?  I really hope it doesn't happen, but any documentation you could gather might help her doctors get a clearer picture of what is going on and fascilitate this intervention you spoke of.