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I haven't seen him 9 days. He's ridiculously affectionate and happy to see me.

It really feels like he's painting me white. I can practically say no wrong.

But he has something to tell me. He hooked up with someone that afternoon. He didn't want to tell me online because he didn't want me to unravel. He waited until I was already here.

That makes me mad. It's not fair. I didn't get to mentally prepare myself, feel whatever one feels in this situation. Now I've committee myself to 2 days with him.

While I was gardening, he was with someone else.

I woke up in the middle of the night with a bad migraine. A part of me doesn't actually want to be next to him, feel his body near me at all. I feel nauseated. I feel numb.

I fell asleep for a few hours but it hit me again after I awoke.

Intimacy, sex feel cheap to me now. They used to be signs of trust, comfort, emotional closeness. It now seems all for nothing.

I am sorry you are dealing with this.

Your threads indicate that you have been doing some personal work, and that is good. Boundaries are an important concept. When I first started learning about them, I thought it was about me deciding my own boundaries, and others would respect them, but in some cases with some people, it was about me deciding my own boundaries, others choosing to violate them, and me being in a predicament of what to do next: honor my boundary- and lose the person, or keep the person and not my boundary. Even if we have boundaries, we have no control over what the other person chooses to do. They are not responsible for keeping our boundaries. We are.

When someone is mistreating us, we have some choices: tolerate it, leave the person's presence, ask them to stop, disengage from that person. We have no control over what they will do, only what we will do about it. With people we care about, this predicament is difficult.

One situation that I see with your boyfriend is the fact that he is 2 hours away, and you don't have many immediate options if he mistreats you, but this isn't something that is changeable now. On the other hand, when you stay with him, you get a good idea of what it would be like to live with him should your relationship get to this point, and instead of 2 days at a time, it would be every day. Although infidelity is a hurtful boundary violation, this is not the first time he has done hurtful things.

Your choice at this point is to continue to work on the relationship as you have been doing, or decide it is not for you. I don't know if the two of you had an agreement about being intimate with others or not, but this is what he chose to do. The long drive is an obstacle, but you also can choose to stay the whole 2 days, or cut this visit short and return home. This is a hard thing to deal with and I hope you are able to reach out to friends and even your counselor for support.

I am sorry you are hurting.

I get why a married partner of swBPD struggles with these types of situations.  However, if you're still single I don't get why you would put up with this type of behavior.

If you were my sister I'd advise one thing: run.

Look at the posts on this site, look at the lessons.  If you're willing to deal with this behavior for the rest of your life (and behavior that's worse, since now he's trying to be good) then fine, go into it with both eyes open, knowing that's the life you've chosen. 

I'm sorry you are hurting right now. I know how much betrayal hurts.

That nauseous feeling you have is your gut telling you this isn't right. Listen to it. Notwendy made several great points about boundaries. By staying you reinforced for him that the behavior is ok when it is not. He waited for you to get there because he knew you would be less likely to leave. Even if you told him how much it hurt you and then left for even a little while that would have at least sent the message that you were not ok with what happened.

He is not respecting you or the RS. How about setting a boundary now? What did you say when he told you?

When you make better choices for YOU I promise that terrible feeling will go away.

I have a different philosophy about telling someone to run. Would I have told my younger self to run from some relationships?  I don't know, because it may have taken those relationships to teach me about boundaries and fine tune my own, which are still a work in progress. Some relationships never started because I knew quite quickly that this is my deal breaker.

I realize that while I have issues in my current r/s, I did date people who did some pretty hurtful things and I had poor boundaries. I learned how it felt to have some boundaries violated, how it felt to have my own values ignored and feeling devalued before I decided I didn't like that. I also had seen enough from my parents' situation. I did have "deal breakers", but I did not know myself well enough to know the extent of them. I think all of us have some "red flags" things about relationships that concern us, and "deal breakers" things that we will not tolerate in a relationship no matter what, and if we face these, we have to choose to accept them or dissolve the relationship. People can have different deal breakers. Someone else might have left  misuniadziubek's BF right away. Someone else might stay longer than she does.

Not all relationships include deal breakers. Ideally, we screen these out before things progress to the point of being serious, but that isn't always the case. What makes a relationship hard to dissolve over a deal breaker is that nobody is all good or all bad. Many of our relationships include good times, and loving times. The choice seems to be - is the good from the relationship worth the price of the emotional pain of accepting a deal breaker?

So while this boyfriend has violated some of my deal breakers, I don't know the whole of it. To this point, misuniadziubek has chosen that the good for her outweighs the negative. None of us are in her shoes, nor do we know all that is in the balance. However, what I can say is to pay attention to the feelings, they are telling you something. The way things are is the way they are. You either accept him as he is with the understanding that you have no control over his choices, or decide that the way he behaves is not the way you want to be treated in a relationship, but this decision, for it to be effective has to come from you, your own internal boundary because for us to defend our boundaries, we have to know them.

Is there a reason that you feel the need to honor that commitment? Is it possible for you to leave? People can change their mind.


Then don't sleep next to him. Sleep on the couch or even make a pallet on the floor so you don't have to feel him next to you. Heck, if the bed is big enough, put some pillows between the two of you. What you are feeling is perfectly normal. Don't let his niceness distract you from what you are feeling. I have done that too many times. I will get hit with something big and then he will be nice and wonderful and I get distracted and dismiss my own feelings.


That is a very normal feeling. It will probably hit you even harder as time passes and you process it all.

Here are some hugs of support!     This stuff stinks and is difficult! Take care of yourself.

In the grand scheme of things, I have done a lot of work on myself. My bf getting angry with me and telling me to leave still leaves more intense wounds than even sleeping with someone else. That's weird.I don't feel betrayed, just that the relationship is somehow less meaningful. That's what the left brain does. It assigns meaning to things.

It makes me really consider where there is real purpose to me in his life. Also if he serves one either.

The happiness is there until he gets mad at me. Then it feels like someone punched me in the stomach.

I think my reaction is a result of denial. We had a conversation about this, but I never confronted how I actually feel about it until now. And then I'm pretending like it didn't bother me. And he's saying he didn't want to tell me virtually because was worried I'd flip out.

It makes me really consider where there is real purpose to me in his life. Also if he serves one either.



Really, there is some payoff to each of you being in this relationship. Some you may know, and others may be so subconscious that you don't . Relationships are complicated.


The happiness is there until he gets mad at me. Then it feels like someone punched me in the stomach.

I think all relationships have both good and not so good. In  nutshell, people engage in behaviors that they are getting a payoff for, even if that payoff seems negative, it is a payoff, or they pay a price for it, such as an addiction. An alcoholic pays a high price for his/her drinking, but until that price is higher than the payoff, he/she is not likely to stop. People give up their free time to study or work because they need or want the payoff from it. It's how most of us operate behaviorally.

For you, at the moment, the happiness is worth the stomach punch. If it were not, you would be reconsidering your choice to be with him. I am not telling you what choice you should make, but noting that this is what people do.

Isitherorisitme has a good point- the choice one makes in a dating relationship can be different than marriage and with kids. Not because we are saying dating is less significant, but because with marriage and kids the decision factors are different legally and financially and emotionally ( when it involves kids' feelings too). Because of this, someone might make a different decision in a marriage than dating. The point he is making is that leaving when dating can be less complicated than when married, and something to think about before getting married.

I think my reaction is a result of denial. We had a conversation about this, but I never confronted how I actually feel about it until now. And then I'm pretending like it didn't bother me. And he's saying he didn't want to tell me virtually because was worried I'd flip out.

Denial is a major part of many relationships, and sometimes confronting our own feelings is painful.

Although I think everyone has a good point, and certainly good points to consider. Ultimately, it is your choice.

Dealing with such violations is tough and the emotions are complex to work through.

It's a lot to think about.

Relationships can recover from these things but both partners have to be committed to recovery.

It's going to take a little bit of time for you to digest this information and your feelings about it. Do you know if you have co-dependent tendencies?

I definitely have codependant tendencies, which is why I'm working on that part of myself the most intensely as of late. Bit by bit observing and extracting habits I have or finding the source of the emotions, the thoughts that come over me.

Maybe I should feel betrayed or badly. I just feel kind of numb, but it's not a motivation to end the relationship at all. He didn't really break any rules or cross a boundary line.

That's the reason why I'd pretend I was okay with it. To convince myself that I'm okay with it, until I actually figured out what it is I'm feeling.

If I want to come to terms with the relationship, I have to either come to terms with the situation or express that I don't want it to happen in the future.

The worst side effect? Now the relationship has lost some of it's spark, the way I see it. Sure, I love my partner, but I guess... .I don't feel as passionate about things?

Maybe it is going to take me some time to figure this out. Being BPD is not the reason I'm tolerating it.

I guess now I have less to hold onto if the relationship was to shatter.

I'm sorry that happened. How is it he didn't break a rule or cross a boundary line? Did you agree to an open relationship? Was there an understanding you could see other people? I assumed you were in a committed relationship?

I worry that you're "numb" feeling is shock and will soon wear off. Shock is the first stage of grief. You may find in a few days you're really hurt by this. If that is the case, it's ok to feel however you feel. Pretending it away will only lead to resentment. Take some time to figure out your feelings, your values and what you want. You can choose at that point whether to stay and work on the r/s or make a clean break. If you find he violated a boundary, don't let his cheerful demeanor or words confuse you, hold tight to your values.

Yep. Shock.

I saw someone texted him. I didn't read it. But the preview said, "my clit hurts.lol"

And all Im thinking is why the f# is this person texting him?

And I completely broke down.

Full of regret honestly. Of all the times that I've let him have his way. All the times I was passive, didn't stand up for myself, didn't walk away.

I hate that part of myself. For giving in like that. For always claiming to have respect for myself and yet letting someone disrespect me like that... .Regularly.

I don't GAF any more if he doesn't want to feel smothered by a relationship.

He can leave if he doesn't want the commitment. If he can't succumb to a relationship then he can move on.

I feel disgusted with myself. With him.

Anger. Good. You're onto the next step.

Be careful not to turn the anger inward. You didn't cheat. You didn't make him do that. You've been patient, forgiving, loving, kind. Those are all good traits. Defend her. How? Ask yourself... .how will you protect this loving kind person going forward? Those are your boundaries.

The stages of grief are defined, but they aren't always sequential and sometimes you can revisit them- in circles. You can also feel more than one emotion at the same time.

Going numb is a common defense mechanism of people who had difficult childhoods. We went numb to protect ourselves from strong feelings and also because we didn't have the ability to let these feelings out on our caretakers because we needed them to survive.

Recognizing our feelings and feeling them is part of our personal recovery from co-dependency. Some of us have gone numb so often, we might not recognize them. I think many recovery programs use the feeling chart as a guide. You can google one or ask your therapist.

I don't know if it is possible to come to an immediate decision about your relationship in the midst of shock, but you can feel your feelings and also explore them with your T. You can also take steps to protect yourself and heal -whatever that is. If you can't recover in his presence, then you can take some time to yourself. You can contact him or not.

You are wondering what he wants to do, and what she wants to do and the intent of the texts. It is possible that your BF isn't sure what he wants, and if he has the option of being with both of you, then he doesn't have to choose. However, no matter what he wants, you also can decide what you want to do. You may not be able to decide that now, but try to shift some of your focus from wondering what he may want ( you can't always know that) on to wondering about, and in time discovering, what you want- the answer to that is up to you.

Hey Misuniadziubek:

You’re so right when you say it wasn’t fair how he broke this to you. I can so honestly feel for you and do. I know only too well how difficult what you’re going through is.

Not to sound sexist, but I think on some level the experience and process holds some differences but a lot of similarities when it is a woman who experiences this hurt and betrayal than a man. Either way, both are just as hurtful I’m sure.

I wonder, has he broke contact with this other person? Do he see the need in that? The texting wouldn’t indicate that. On the flip side, there is one clear indication from the texting that took place, she really isn’t any prize.

What does he have to say about this Mis? Have the two of you established any boundaries with regards to fidelity? Do you feel any kind of regret, remorse or accountability on his part? Do you have hope that the future of your relationship with him can be a relationship you want, knowing the damage that has been done? Maybe that isn’t posed correctly, do you trust the future of your relationship?

There is so much you’ve already experienced and probably so much that you still will go through during this. It is so important that you stay faithful to yourself and take care of yourself right now and not let this effect you on a personal level of accountability. One thing holds true and that’s that there is nothing right about infidelity in what was supposed to be a faithful or committed relationship. That doesn’t mean being wrong preempts an outcome – only you can know what’s right or wrong for you there. But I also know that hollow definitions or statements of rights and wrongs do nothing to help take away the pain.

What do you do and what do you think in those moments when you find yourself woken in the middle of the night by this Mis? Are you managing that any better yet? I hope so, but so little time has passed. Have you looked at and worked your way through the pros and cons of your future in this? If so, what does that look like to you.

It’s my greatest wish that when you look at the possibilities of your future that it is with hope for the future you want, that guides you. If not for hope what do any of us have to set our sails toward Mis?

Here’s to hoping you find happiness through the situation you find yourself in Mis.

Yes. This is me. Any time I showed any defiance in what was going on because I didn't like something, I would be verbally chastised into oblivion. It was a dictatorship, not a democracy and I wasn't allowed to have thoughts that didnt' reflect my caretakers.




With the amount of time it's taking for me to even figure out how I feel, it really does feel impossible to decide right now. He's been trying to be somewhat ... .comforting? Obsessively telling me that I'm the only one for him? Expressing fears of losing me. Telling me 'I love you's' way more often than usual?


This is the huge issue for me. For one, I broke his trust, unbeknownst to him, and I looked at the texts. Just to see what the hell was up. He has responded to her. And she's a diagnosed borderline.

And he's telling her things that he's been going through. And then she's telling him that she misses him (What kind of bullsh** is that?) and I'm leaving tomorrow and they have plans to see each other again in the evening.  


Big piece of this puzzle that I haven't mentioned: We have had an agreement for a couple months that we -are- allowed to experiment, if we have the opportunity. The limits were that they aren't people we know or are friends with, and that we don't maintain contact with them, exchange numbers or do it more than once and that using proper protection is mandatory. We tell each other right away if it happened, but details are allowed to be omitted.

So, until I saw that she texted him, I didn't really think anything of it. To me it was some stranger at a club, one time thing. Done over. I can deal with that. Now it's a person. Who's texting him. Who is sending him pictures of herself in fetish-paraphenelia. Who is sexting him in some fashion.

And who he's seeing again.

I can't tell him that I saw. But seeing that? Felt like my heart just got torn into pieces.

So no. All the comforting words he's throwing my way isn't going to fix that.

I can be told I'm number one all he wants. Telling me he can't live without me. It feels like it's just words.

So without really letting on that I invaded his privacy. (Did I bring this on myself?) I tell him that I'm upset. Because we had a conversation last night where he expressed that his 'symptoms of BPD' worry him. That he thinks he might never be able to be truly happy with anyone in any relationship. That he's scared of losing me so much, but that he can't change how his brain works. I tell him I'm worried, especially in the context of an 'open relationship'. That I wouldn't be comfortable with him contacting that person again.

And he starts off on his b-s rant. "That's ridiculous that you don't want me to talk to people I sleep with. Don't you trust me? I would never emotionally cheat on you. I think you should try to find someone as well. No one will ever replace you in my life."

He says it as genuinely as he can. Keeps asking if I'm okay. But it doesn't change anything. I feel broken. He slept with someone and now he's changing the rules. I don't want him to spend time with some person of the opposite sex where he's had sex with them. He thinks it's okay as long as I trust him. He says that he would trust me to do the same.

It's all f-ing manipulation. NO! He asks if I'd be okay with him sleeping with an ex. I tell him no. He doesn't understand why. There's no emotional connection. It's just ridiculous. I'm being paranoid.


Honestly? I need time to figure it out. His words are kind of meaningless, even though he's trying to reassure me I'm his number one. That he feels like I am the best person that he could ever be with. That I put up with things no one has ever been capable of putting up with. That I'm by his side no matter what and that means everything.

Months ago, I'd have eaten up those words. It's how I 'wanted' him to see me.  Today they are just words. Attempts at justification for what he wants to be able to do. Because he's still in his early twenties. Because he wants to enjoy life.

I want to enjoy a committed relationship with a future.

The infidelity didn't start at the sex. It started at the moment where he thought it was okay to start talking to this person and found their behaviour (sexting especially) to be okay. Sex CAN be just physical, I can believe that. But any connection past that is no longer just physical.  

We agreed on rules and he changed them midway, because it benefited him and now claims that I'm asking too much and 'freaking out'.

I do feel sorry for the reaction your going through and for the situation you agreed to put yourself into by agreeing to extra-relationship encounters. It's not really a life style I would chose to live in but honestly, this isn't about me at all. The question is how do you feel now about a relationship based on those concessions? Do you benefit or take part in it as he has?

"I want to enjoy a committed relationship with a future. " and living a life style of freedom to have sex with others, even casually and on a one-time basis, to me is an oxymoron. I can't even begin to fathom that one can relate to the other when the foundation of a committed relationship is trust. I guess I'm monogamously-driven.

I wonder sweetheart, have you thought about considering if that life style choice is really the choice you want to make for your relationship? Probably most guys in their twenties would sure jump at that situation and take advantage of it. Have your cake and eat too - the best of both worlds - really is too much of good thing. The problem comes in living with the decisions when they come to fruition.

Can a guy have sex with no emotional attachment - absolutely - but is that the characteristics you really want as a foundation to build a future with?

You're in such a tough spot Mis and it would be my greatest hope that you use this experience to help define a future that fits your real wants and needs. It has to be about you and your decision has to be totally about your future and what you really want for your life. I hope you chose a path that takes you in the direction you want and deserve.

I know how you feel. I went to try to fix my relationship with my ex and she wasn't home. She later told me after I confronted her that she was out sleeping with someone else. She read my text begging her to come talk to me and ignored it and slept with another guy. She cried and tried to hug me but I stopped her because I didn't want to touch her. We hadn't even been broken up a week. You need to realize that their actions are who they are, not their words. If they look you in the eye and say that they love you then immediately go sleep with someone else then they do not love you.

The good news is that there is someone out there that does and they will be the best thing to ever happen to you and make your memories of the ex BPD seem like a bad dream.

Why can't you tell him what you saw? Were you snooping when you saw it or was it by accident? Snooping isn't right but at the same time, there needs to be some level of honesty and trust. I have been on both sides of this. I have been the one snooping and I have had my husband snoop on me. I had to set down a boundary about no snooping in my stuff because my husband couldn't handle what he saw. We tried out the open relationship for a while. I told him exactly what I was doing. I invited him to read some of my exchanges so that he would know what was going on and he could ask me questions. He didn't want to do that, he wanted to snoop and get angry at me.

I think it would be a good idea to try to bring it up, but if you do, it would be really helpful if you could make sure to stay calm and not flip out. Easier said than done.  :)


What makes you so uncomfortable with the idea of him contacting that person again? Seriously think about that. You are wanting to have an open relationship and are trying to set the rules for what works for you. That makes sense. That is what I did when we tried out an open relationship. I had such mixed feelings during the whole thing. I was afraid that my husband was trying to find a replacement for me. He acted like it a lot of the time too. He would go on and on about these other women that he had talked to and how great of a connection that he had with them. I don't think it would have mattered whether my husband contacted them once or a hundred times because, for me, it was all about how he treated me. If he had treated me nicer or better, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal.


I was on the opposite end of the spectrum from you. I didn't want my husband going out having random sex with strangers. My husband is a sex addict so I couldn't handle that. I would have much rather him find ONE person to have on the side because that is what I wanted and that is what I had for a little while. I have had several friends that have had open relationships. The rules should be agreed to and stuck with or things will get ugly. I know that things got ugly with my husband because he couldn't stick to our agreements. One day, he would be excited about me having a friend and the next day he would be mad about it. It seemed like his level of acceptance was directly related to whether or not he was talking to anybody at that particular moment.

It sounds to me like the two of you should try to clarify what is and is not okay with each other. An open relationship can have whatever rules you want as long as both parties are willing to stick to the agreements and refine them as needed. I have friends that are healthy and it is difficult to navigate open relationships because they require a lot of trust and a lot of open communication, neither of which are strengths in a relationship with somebody with BPD.


Don't listen to his words, listen to his actions. It took me a long time to get it across to my husband that I was not going to listen to his words any more. How could he say all of those things about loving me one minute and then the next he is all excited about some other woman. Not only is he more excited about her but he is telling ME about this excitement. When I had a friend on the side, I kept things pretty quiet. My husband knew that he existed and he knew when I went to see him, which was very seldom. I wanted and needed more than just sex. I wanted a FWB. I didn't neglect my husband or my children. If anything, I was nicer to everyone. With my husband, he was more of a jerk and would then wonder why in the world I didn't believe him when he told me that kind of "I love you" crap.


I laughed out loud at this. Not because it is funny but because I have been there, done that. Is it really too much to ask for honesty? Is it really too much to ask for somebody to stick with the rules that we agreed to when we started all of this? I was accused of having a double standard. I was told that I was freaking out. Yes, I was freaking out. I was freaking out because somebody was trying to manipulate things to benefit them without any consideration for how I might feel about things.

 

And it makes it even more difficult for you to get help and support because most people look at you like you have horns growing out of your head when you even begin to breathe the words 'open relationship'.

I felt the same after my ex cheated. I tried to adjust, but I couldn't.  I wanted sex to be a sign of trust, comfort and emotional closeness, but after the infidelity (and numerous other instances of dishonesty) I started tor realize I would have to give up that ideal to remain with my ex. Considering THAT possibility made me completely emotionally dysregulated. In the face of my dysregulation, my ex moved out.

Reading these discussions on open relationships makes me wonder if these require even more of an intact ego to handle. The things people are agreeing to: honesty, transparency, communication- are all desirable in any relationship- and these are also some of the weakest skills we have in our current situation. If it isn't happening with us, then can we expect this if another person is added?

Also an agreement to an open relationship might seem Ok in theory- but feel entirely different when it happens. If one isn't happy after trying it, then that is also a learning experience and there may need to be a new agreement.

They absolutely do require a more in tact ego. It is difficult to NOT take it personally when a partner enjoys the company of somebody else more than you. Something that I could never really seem to get across to my husband is that opening things up and having stuff on the side is NEVER meant as a replacement for your primary partner/spouse. I tried to explain it in the context of how ridiculous it is to think that ONE person can meet all of your needs. Really, what I was wanting from the whole experience was some space. Between being at the beck and call of my husband and children and just trying to survive at times, I wanted some tender loving care from time to time. I wanted a break. I tried to tell my husband what I was doing at all times.

He couldn't be honest with me or others. He would change the rules as he went. If I tried to express concern about anything or wanted to refine things, he would get mad and accuse me of having double standards. It was a mess. When we originally agreed to open things up, I thought it was more that we were both bored. As time went on, our marital problems became the excuse for seeking outside stuff. I snooped like crazy a few times. I was blown away by some of the things that he was telling these other women.


It is impossible to negotiate a new agreement with somebody that couldn't even stick the agreement in the first place. I can relate to Mis and the statement about being accused of freaking out. If I had a problem or wanted to try to adjust things or reconsider some things, I would get accused of freaking out. There were times when I absolutely did freak out because I could not handle him telling another woman I never say "I love you" and that I refused to have sex with him and a whole bunch of other stuff. And to top it off, he was telling her that he was soo interested in certain things. I had tried to introduce those things but he told me that he wasn't interested and that he was creaped out by it. Yet, he was totally into talking about it and stuff with her. It totally blew me away.

This is what I was getting at. For agreements to work in one relationship, both people should keep them- and many people here are upset about their partner not keeping agreements. An open relationship has agreements as well, and so, if someone has difficulty keeping agreements already- then the same issue is likely to come up with an open relationship agreement.

Even in the best of circumstances- where there is agreement, communication, honesty- a relationship is hard to contain. In the open relationships that I have heard of- the agreement is that the main relationship is a priority, but getting involved with someone else can lead to people developing feelings for each other. I guess that requires a different boundary of "fidelity" at some level - to be emotionally faithful to maintaining #1 but is that harder to keep when one is intimate with somebody?

There is the potential also for jealousy and hurt. If someone has a poor sense of self, I don't know how they would tolerate their partner with someone else. They may say they would- and think it was great if they did it, but would they handle their partner doing it? I don't know. There was a thread here a while ago where the couple had an open relationship agreement, the non had one date, and her partner with BPD was extremely hurt. The reason I mention a new agreement is that in this case, the partner said OK in theory, but when it happened, couldn't handle the emotions with it. Yes, agreements are difficult to begin with, but that person might consider how he feels the next time open relationship is discussed.

Anyway, I am not trying to tell people what to do, and I am sure there are couples who have successfully negotiated open relationships, but to me, to do so would take more relationship skills, intact ego, and boundaries, not less- and for many of us here, the issue is poor relationship skills in at least one partner.

So Mis, you snooped, but it's hard to blame you. If I thought my partner was cheating, I think I would also snoop to find out what was going on. I don't condone snooping- but what is the feeling that leads to this?

A lack of trust. You snooped because you felt that there was a lack of trust in your relationship. You do have the choice of confronting him, but if he is being dishonest, and doesn't own up to his actions in general, do you think confronting him is going to lead to his owning up to his behavior or blaming you/getting angry for snooping?

So she texted him. That's her choice to text him, no matter what the agreement between the two of you is- she can still text him. Is she interested in him? I think I would assume that considering she slept with him. Why would he respond? Well, if he likes having her as a sexual partner, he would respond. Sexual attraction and drive is strong- no matter what agreement is made about it when talking about it. There was a commercial about potato chips years ago "bet you can't eat just one". Seriously, not being crude here, but I think it would be harder to resist sex with someone once you've crossed that line.

Do you think either of you are in a calm emotional place to discuss a confrontation at the moment?

However, even if you don't confront him, you are now faced with new information and new feelings about your relationship. You have a choice of what to do about this, even if you are not able to make a choice at the moment. You can decide if you want fidelity in a relationship or not, whether or not you are facing a deal breaker or not. It's a lot to think about, but you have the answers to you- and you can act on your own answers, regardless of what he, or she, or anyone else does or says.

I don't understand the concept of being emotionally faithful. I do but I think I am missing something. Fidelity can be whatever two people define it to be. Early in our marriage, my husband's excessive porn use felt like infidelity to me. It was like he was cheating on me with himself.

When I had my friend on the side, I loved him and I was very emotionally involved with him. I have cut it off with him but I would be lying if I said that I didn't miss him and still have feelings for him. My emotional involvement with him didn't impair my ability to be emotionally involved with my husband. In some ways, I felt like it made me able to be MORE present for my husband because I didn't have so many unfulfilled needs. When I was with my husband, my husband was my focus. When I was with my friend, my friend was the focus.

For me, being faithful meant being present and being respectful to my husband. It meant not being a jerk to him and giving him my undivided attention when we were together. My husband could not do that. When he had a friend on the side, he would be an even bigger jerk to me. He would be even less present with me. It was clearly a case of me or them. He couldn't plan a date with me for our anniversary but he could plan a date with one of them. For me, being faithful meant making my husband and our kids my top priority. My friend and I had a pretty clear understanding that our families came first. If we were talking and he disappeared, I assumed that it was because his family or work needed him. If I disappeared, he didn't really ask questions either.


There isn't a one size answer for this question. My husband handled me being with somebody else quite well. He really liked the whole cuckold thing. It excited him for me to be with somebody else. I am the one that had more of a problem than he did. The reason that I had a problem was that I could see that my husband was treating these other women the way I wanted to be treated. He was calling them sweety and talking to them about getting their nails done and all kinds of sweet and loving crap that I hadn't had in years, if ever.

The open stuff only works when starting off with a strong relationship to begin with. I have friends that are in open relationships that work. If a partner gets jealous or hurt, you take the time to comfort them and work with them. You don't start changing the rules and getting upset. You act like a grown up about it. You handle it kind of like a parent handles it when a child gets upset or jealous because you are giving more attention to somebody else. You validate it and work with them rather than against them.


Negotiating an open relationship requires a lot of relationship skills. If either partner, non or pwBPD, lacks the ability to communicate openly, honestly, and in a very straight forward manner, then it isn't going to work.

I don't want to hijack this thread with too much talk about the open stuff so I am going to try to tie this discussion back to Mis. I think the open parts are very relevant to this conversation because it adds a whole new element of confusion. On one hand, Mis has every right to be upset that he slept with somebody else. On another hand, I find it confusing that she is okay with JUST sex.

This is a case where I think it is time to evaluate what is really wanted out of a relationship. Why did you agree to an open relationship to begin with? Why did you consent to the experimentation? Did you have some kind of expectation/hope that he wouldn't follow through with it? I read a story yesterday about a woman that gave her husband permission to have sex outside of the marriage. He chose not to do it. The article didn't say this directly but I got the sense that it was implying that a real man would never take up that kind of offer. As I read the article, I found myself getting irritated because it was setting up yet another unrealistic expectation. If a person can't handle something like a partner having sex outside of the relationship, then do NOT agree to it. It is better to be perfectly honest with yourself and risk losing the relationship than agree to something you can't handle just to keep a relationship.

Whether or not what he did/is doing is cheating is unclear. I am not trying to defend his actions but trying to point out that a lot of things become really unclear and fuzzy when you start doing things in the context of an open relationship. If it is cheating, at what point did it become cheating? When he slept with her? Or when he responded to texts afterwards? Her texting him is out of his control. He can only control whether or not he responds to those texts.

It felt like cheating the moment that he started responding to her texts.

I imagined it a one time thing. Something that I wouldn't have to really know about it.

But once
responded, it genuinely felt like betrayal. Like he could take interest in this person and whenever I wasn't in the mood, feeling bad, he could turn to that person to make him feel not empty anymore.

It was the nature of the texts as well. The way he talked to them. It was reminiscent of how we were texting when he was with his ex-gf.

Unfortunately, I don't have a strong sense of self and no matter how I rationalize it, it's still painful to think he's going to see this person more than once. That he plans to catch up on sleep today with them. While he kept me up half the night and we barely got to cuddle. I'd have been better off not staying the night.

In a way. I have to emotionally detach. Words won't change the pain I constantly feel. I can't handle reading the texts, but not knowing feels so much worse.

Honestly? I should have known I wouldn't be able to handle it. I have serious abandonment issues. I get upset if my SO doesn't cuddle me when I was when going to bed. It's a childhood trauma that gets really easily triggered.

Telling him I'm no longer okay with it is a double edged sword. It's not fair to him. I want him to be happy and enjoy himself. I'm not around as much and sometimes he gets lonely or wants to have some fun. I know he can't replace me in his life.

He's been telling me that he realised after this that he doesn't express how much he loves and appreciates me as often as he should. He told me he's surprised he found someone who is capable putting up with him, because none of his exes came close to how good I am for him.

I don't want him to find what he needs somewhere else. I won't tolerate emotional cheating. It's a deal breaker. I trust him not to, but I think I need to know how often at the very least.  I'm dealing with this at best I can.

"Telling him I'm no longer okay with it is a double edged sword. It's not fair to him. I want him to be happy and enjoy himself. I'm not around as much and sometimes he gets lonely or wants to have some fun. I know he can't replace me in his life. "

He's not on this board, asking us to help him in this relationship- at least I don't think he is, but if he was, I would tell him to be true to himself, fair to himself, and I will say the same to you.

You're here. He's part of the situation, but you are in it too. I hear what you are saying about him. You love him, you want to be fair to him. You don't want to tell him that you are not OK with this?

Are you not OK with this? Because, IMHO you don't seem like you are OK with this.

ARE YOU BEING FAIR TO YOU?

I mean this. In my groups we talk about fear of abandonment, many of us have been abandoned.

But by not being true to ourselves we abandon ourselves.

You count and in a relationship you get to decide what you wish for the r/s. No two people are alike, so maybe you don't get all you wish for, but if something is important to you- then it is also important that it is the same thing that is important to your partner.

If fidelity is important - then both have to see it as important.

If open relationship is important, then be with someone who agrees with your ideas of how this works.

If you want children- then be with someone who also wants them.

If you want a home built on your religion- then find someone of the same religion.

What you want is unique to you. It might not be what someone else wants. Some things are important enough to make sure we are on the same page as our partners, other things we compromise on. Some choices are not easy- as many on this board have found out, but we still can own what we think is important.

Until you are able to own what you want, what you are OK with and what you are not OK with, it is not possible to find someone who matches you in values and priorities.

If you are not OK with what happened- even if you did agree to it, then you have to choose to live with him as it is, take him as he is, and accept that this is hurtful to you. Or decide that it isn't what you want. You may not know the answer to this yet, but don't abandon yourself.

Why isn't it fair to him? Is being wishy washy about it fair to him?

Is trying to make yourself okay with something that you are NOT okay with fair to you?

You are not being honest with him or yourself. Until you can be honest with yourself about what you are or are not okay with, then it is quite likely that you will continue to get hurt because you won't know what boundaries to set and enforce. That is setting yourself for more pain and more heart ache.


Is having sex with somebody else the only way for him to be happy? I had that discussion with my husband one time. He has his online games. He has his men's groups. He has all kinds of things to keep him busy and entertained. If he wants to have sex with somebody, why can't he have it with me? Sometimes, people need to learn how to be lonely on occasion. Sometimes, people need to learn that they can have fun in situations that do not involve sex or multiple partners.

Do you really feel like he can't replace you? Really think about that. If you were completely certain of that, then you might not be feeling so jealous'/upset/whatever it is you are feeling. Tap into what it is that you are feeling.


This is tough territory to navigate!   

Re-read what you wrote in what I quoted above.

-You don't want him to find what he needs somewhere else. Are you referring to sex, the emotional stuff, or something else? It might help if you clarified this for yourself. Are you okay with him having any female friends? At what point does having a female friend become emotional cheating in your book? Or do you even know? For me, it is something that I haven't been able to explain in words and is more of a "I'll know it when I see it" type thing.

-You say that you trust him not to. Are you sure about this? If you truly trust him, then why do you feel the need to know? What is it that you want to know? That he has a female friend? That he has had sex with somebody else? What level of knowing is it that you are seeking. That was a big struggle for me. I wanted to know if my husband had sex with somebody else but I didn't want details. If I am in a relationship, I want to know that my husband is STD free. I have heard of situations where there are don't ask don't tell policies and both partners agree to get checked regularly. Is that something that you might consider?

I want to reiterate what Notwendy said, you don't have to make a decision right now. Just be sure that you are remaining true to yourself and your values. Don't compromise who you are and what you want to be with somebody that doesn't share your values. That would be setting yourself and the relationship up for failure or at least a lot of pain and heart ache. Relationships are hard enough to navigate when two people do have shared values.

I realise I'm having trouble recognising what I feel, let alone telling my partner what's going on.

We originally agreed on an open relationship because he expressed fear that ten years down the road, he would have regrets about not taking advantage of his youth and experimenting with people. I genuinely wanted him to have the chance to try out new things that he found exciting. I didn't consider it cheating if it was just physical interactions. Kind of like a one night stand, and then you move on.

I was also okay with it, because I had my own fantasies that I wanted to play out. I had this idea of compartmentalisation. You do something and then you move on. No strings attached. So I tried to do that. I found someone who would be willing to meet up with me and enact those fantasies.

Except that once I got to the point of making plans, I retreated. The idea of doing it excited me. Actually doing it? I genuinely didn't want to. It made me realise that I was just not really being honest with my partner, afraid of telling him my fantasies, and so what I actually preferred was to act out those fantasies with him instead.

The rules were at the time, we do it with people we are not friends with (ie. my friend from highschool was offlimits) as the opportunity arises, but we don't maintain a friendship or real contact after. Kind of like, this is a one time thing. The idea of a regular partner is not in line with what I feel because I don't want an emotional connection to occur. We don't add the to facebook, and we don't treat them as a booty call or FWB. It's to add spice, and not to fix issues with our relationship.

Yep. That's the part that hurts. Very deeply. That's the part that I can't handle.

Because now, what he's saying is, we can have a regular play partner. We don't get emotionally involved, but we're allowed to maintain regular contact, hang out with them, text them.

I'm okay with him having female friends if he wants. I trust him not to develop an emotional connection. I'm not okay with him having female friends that he is sleeping with.

He told me that now he was okay with me sleeping with my high school friend, because he thought I had feelings for him. But he trusts me now.

He's also said now that he's gonna stop asking me who is texting me. I always expressed that there is a double standard that he asks me all the time who is texting me, whereas I never ask, and gets mad and suspicious if I don't answer right away.

I'm not afraid of being replaced, but I have intense jealousy going on right now. We agreed a long time ago that we don't snoop on each other. I broke that promise without him knowing and actually snooped, because I was overcome with fear. And then my fears were founded.

What gets me is that this wasn't my version of the open relationship in my head. I expressed to him that I've stopped myself from doing things with people in the past before because I felt it was crossing a line. He now tells me that it's okay. I can cross that line. He trusts me. Every scenario I told him about, he now tells me it's okay for me to do that. (Because he wants ME to be okay with what he's doing)

What it boils down to is that my deep-seated feeling is that he's now projecting his own guilt. He suddenly trusts me more than ever, I'm allowed to do more than ever because he's experienced something, and he feels guilt over it. And everything is -okay- because he wants it to be okay.

He's treating me better, being more understanding, validating, everything I've ever wanted him to be.

And all it feels like is that he wants to right some wrong. He wants me to be okay with things that I'm not okay with.

In fact, he's pushing me to find myself a play partner. He wants me to do it. He tells me that he wants me to enjoy myself.

And maybe I could. Maybe it would make things better for me, if I did on my own. But I'm still so pissed off. Because he changed the rules in the middle of everything to suit his own needs. That's how he hurt me. And I can't be in an open relationship where he's changing rules and making things okay that we had previously said, aren't.  

Mis, there are ways to learn about yourself. I think we are well aware of some of our values, but some we just don't know until we experience them. We are always learning. Some things make sense, or sound correct in theory, but with experience, we may find it doesn't suit us. To use a more neutral example, consider someone who always wanted a career in science, but in college decides he/she likes history and art better, and doesn't like science. That person can now make a change according to experience.

Not committing adultery, or the idea being faithful to one partner ( married or not) is an age old idea. Some people believe that rule came from a higher power. I accept that, but others may not. That is their choice to make. I also look at some of these rules from an anthropological standpoint, and if some of these rules: don't cheat, don't lie, don't steal, are found within many cultures over a long period of time, I conclude that they are there for a reason- that breaking them could lead to something hurtful- so people decided they were good rules to follow.

An open relationship requires a couple making their own rules. The no cheating one is a pretty black and white one (albeit there is some debate about what constitutes cheating in the emotional arena, but there is little argument that it means hands off someone else). When you make rules in the grey area of relationships and emotions, then you are dealing with something that may be OK with one person, and not with another.

Your posts indicates that you made some rules initially. They sounded good to you, but even as you tried to explore your own options, you felt uncomfortable doing so. This is your own emotions talking to you. They are saying " wait a minute, this doesn't feel right". This is the part of you that you need to listen to. Your BF has also changed the rules. He tried them, and - well, he seems to like them, and he wants to change the rules for him. You have both learned something from this. You don't seem as comfortable with the level of openness he wants, your boyfriend at the moment does.

Your dilemma is that if you agree with him, you are not going to honor your feelings. If he agrees with you, he might not feel this is what he wants to do. However, you can act according to your feelings and values- but he can also choose what he wants to do.

Parts of your posts are about what your BF wants and the rules he wants to play by, but you can have your feelings and ideas if you want to too. He may choose not to follow them, and then you will need to choose what to do. You have indicated that you are not happy with these rules. This puts you in a dilemma. Ideally, we would not find ourselves in one like this, but with relationships, this can happen.

  That is a tough spot to be in because it leads to a lot of uncertainty. I have been in that spot and it is rough since you are trying to navigate a relationship with somebody else. Is he putting any pressure on you to make a decision? When my husband and I were trying to navigate the open territory, it seemed like he wanted black and white answers. Things would change so fast that I felt I stayed confused and never really got get a grip on what I was feeling let alone figure out my values.


What are YOUR goals? What do you want your life to be like ten years down the road? Do you want to be in a completely monogamous marriage? Do you want to have kids? What is it that YOU want? Who brought up the idea of an open relationship? Him or you? How old are the two of you?


Have the two of you discussed the new things that he finds exciting? There are a whole lot of things that two people can try together. For me, one of the things that I had hoped was that I could try out new and exciting things with my husband. For some reason, he wasn't comfortable doing new and exciting things with me. What is it about a one night stand that is so appealing? If you don't know anything about a person, how do you know if he/she will be open to those new things? Or, is it the excitement of being with a different person? Just some things to think about to help you clarify your own values and ideas.


I had the same experience with the whole thing. The idea of it was more exciting than actually doing it. I can't have a one night stand. I need that connection. I wanted to act out certain things with my husband but he wasn't open to it at all.


Have you tried to question him further about this? I am speaking from my own experience where I realized that I couldn't have a one night stand. The only way that I can have sex with somebody is to have some kind of regular contact. Even if there isn't the romantic element, I need to know the person on a personal level. I didn't think that initially but over time that was something that I realized about myself. I did a lot of research about primary and secondary partners and how all of that can play out in an open relationship. I was afraid of getting too involved with my friend and neglecting my husband and family. What I found was that having a friend that met some of the needs that my husband didn't/couldn't meet actually made me a better partner to my husband. I don't want you to interpret me saying all of this as me sticking up for your partner. I am trying to share MY experiences so that maybe it will give you some questions/perspectives to use to have a conversation with him about this stuff.

When my husband and I were in the middle of all of that stuff, there was no way that I could have verbalized what I shared above. It has taken me quite a while to figure it out enough to be able to verbalize it in a way that made any kind of sense.


That is perfectly okay. If he can't honor that, then you have some decisions to make. Like Notwendy said, be true to yourself. If the relationship is important to both of you, then perhaps you can have some ongoing discussions to find a middle ground that both of you can live with in the long run. If you can't find that middle ground, then it might be a good idea to consider ending the relationship. One of the great things about dating is that it does give you time to figure out what you want and decide if you think it is right for you. How long do you want to be with your BF?


Things never quite work out as nicely as we picture them in our heads. I had the same problem. My husband seemed to want to change the rules according to whatever it was that he was doing or wanted to do. That will never work because you don't have any kind of set framework to work within. There are too many guessing games. Plus, it isn't fair to the other people. That was something that I couldn't really get my husband to understand. I wanted to have ONE friend. He seemed to want a lot of different friends. I couldn't have ONE friend if he was telling me one day that everything was great and the next day he was telling me that we could no longer do things. I have no idea what he was telling the women that he was talking to at any given time. He told some of them that we were doing this because our relationship sucked. Sure, our relationship sucked. I was doing what I was doing because I had needs that he couldn't/wouldn't meet.


Don't ignore that! There for a while, my husband was okay with me doing whatever I wanted as long as I told him about it and gave him ALL of the details. As long as I did that, I could do whatever I wanted. I am NOT comfortable giving anybody that level of detail about some things.


How do you feel about that? I know that when my husband phrased things like that and tried to make it sound like he was being all nice and sweet, I felt friggin' horrible. It felt dirty to me. I couldn't seem to get my husband to understand that I wanted HIM to be my play partner. I wanted to enjoy myself with HIM. Heck, when I first started talking to different guys, I would ask them for ideas to get my husband more interested in ME. And I wondered why nobody was interested. lol


I know that hurt all too well. Until the two of you can come to some kind of agreement or compromise, it might be a good idea to shut it all down. Tell him that you can't be in an open relationship with him until you work out some of this stuff. I have told my husband, "I don't know if I will be open to the open idea later on down the road or not. I am not going to consider it unless or until we both get our acts together and can agree on certain things." There are too many other issues in our relationship to complicate things with bringing other people into the mix (whether it is a one night stand or something else).

 

Mis,

I'm late to this thread... .      to you.

You are working through some big emotions... .let them flow.  Keep the questions coming... .I see you emerging from this stronger and more focused.

FF