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I've noticed a lot lately that my unBPDw is very indecisive. Anything she tries to do its like she can't or won't make a decision on it. She is constantly calling me to find out what she should do.

That in itself wouldn't be a big deal, it's what happens when it doesn't work out that I have trouble dealing with. If it's not up to her standard (nothing ever is), I get blamed for it being bad. I made the decision and told her to do XYZ that way so its now my fault.

Does anyone else have to deal with this and if so how to you handle it?

Yep, this is classic BPD. One thing to remember is to not get suckered into "making the decision". If you do, it will be thrown back at you later as "you told me to do XYZ" (one XYZ has been proven to be a bad idea). Over the years I have learned to a) accept that our plans will change many times before being executed, and (b) answer requests to express opinion about Plan A vs Plan B with vague responses : "which would you prefer honey?", "well, I like A but I can see virtues in B also", and so on.

Bottom line : yes it is common, yes it is frustrating, but you can learn to avoid stepping on the land mines most of the time.

I am usually better at avoiding these but she has been so persistent lately.  Usually evolves whole family but if I don't make the final decision she will literally do nothing. Happened yesterday while trying to find parking for a NASCAR event. We were late... .of course, another issue I have with her. Then looking for parking, after I finally told her to try parking lot XYZ she did only to make a comment about it being so far away because that's where I wanted us to park.

I had had it by then and told her that the comments were un-necessary and definitely not appreciated. I offered to drive us to another area but she was mad that I said something to her.

Of course the kids were in the car and my youngest thought it was his fault because he said something about how far out we had to park. I had to explain to him it wasn't his fault as she was chiming in telling me that I didn't need to speak to her that way.

Which brings up another question, I don't remember reading it anywhere but do people with BPD have issues with punctuality. She plans everything so that if one thing goes wrong (and it does, red light, traffic, etc), she is late. If it's something I need her to be on time for she doesn't even try that hard. I stopped telling her the real time of certain things and instead tell her 30 minutes to and your sooner. If we need to be somewhere by 6:00, I'll tell her 5:30 or even 5:00.

No... .never dealt with anything like this... .

wait... .maybe it was the other day... .

Yes definitely... .

No... .I don't think so.

And it's your fault for asking the question... .   

FF

Yes, and the fleas have bitten me, because I often become afraid to make a decision for fear I'll be told no.

Yes - indecisiveness and bad punctuality are both very common - at least with my BPDbf. Changes his mind constantly. And always late.

When he's being indecisive, I usually tell him "Land the plane already!" which he seems to take much better than "make a freaking decision, gah!"

I've made suggestions, but those usually get vetoed pretty quick. Or I'm suddenly an idiot. As you've observed, if WE make the decision then anything that goes wrong is OUR fault! The best thing to do is help guide them to a decision - ask questions to get them started so they can think it through. Don't rescue them from a bad decision. But don't rub it in their face if something does go wrong.

As to those quick, on-the-spot decisions like finding a parking spot? I just let mine come unglued and remind myself... .he'll get over it once we're inside.

My exgf did this all the time. We once went on holiday. I turned up in plenty of time and loaded my bags in the car. She still was packing. By the time she finished I loaded the car quickly as we had a ferry to catch. She wasnt happy with the packing so unloaded the car and repacked it complaining how we were going to be late. I rushed for the ferry with her complaining all the way about how late we wete and how it was my fault. She would also decide that we had to take something awkward at the last minute that meant repacking the car and then blame me for running late.

I love that lol.  I'll have to try it!

It drives me crazy how they make a choice and then blame someone else when it doesn't go well.  I can also sympathize with asking you to help them make the decision and then blaming you if it doesn't go well.  I normally just tell my wife that I don't want to make the decision because she will just blame me later.  It has reduced the after blame in my case.

Same thing has happened to me.

Aha... .I think you're onto something there! I've said this so many times my bf has gotten to where he'll joke about it - "you pick the restaurant... .that way I can blame you if I don't like it." I roll my eyes and laugh. Good to know they have some awareness of how they are!

Yeah but not so clever because there's a double-bind variant of this where you are also blamed for "not taking decisions and making me take all the decisions around here"  :)

I've definitely dealt with this as well. Thankfully I've tended to help her make good decisions so I don't get too much backlash.

Yep... .that sums it all up. Indecision may or may not be the problem her, I'm just not sure.


I believe this is what cause the most recent time I was painted black. It started on April 6th and hasn't ended yet. I'm hopeful to get to be the good guy again some day.

Yes, on both counts - indecisiveness and punctuality!  

Early on it wasn't too bad because I don't mind making decisions so I just decided stuff and moved on, and she didn't berate me as often.  Now however, my uBPDw is incapable of discussing decisions because it just turns into a major complaint session.  For example, uBPDw is unable to  decide whether she wants a microwave (been without one, & working on that decision for ~5 years!),  or what type of vehicle she wants next (been working on that one for about ~1.5 years, price is not really a factor - probably a bad thing... .!).

These 2 examples are about to blow up though, since I've bought her a new microwave for her birthday (since any / all gifts are only met with complaints anyway... .) and she must have sensed it because she's told the kids that she really doesn't like or want a microwave - to which I remind the kids she never wanted an iphone either but we can't get it out of her hand now.  Just to top it off, I bought new, shorter cabinets for over the range to mount said microwave, and have an installer coming next week to install.  This is going to be epic, wish me well!  I hope that she at least likes the birthday presents from the kids - no guarantees though, so I've prepped them.  

The replacement vehicle is the next debacle to solve, 'just land the plane already, gah!' - love it!

Yep did the microwave thing in February. The car is and easy one for me. I call her and ask what color and give her 2 choices, then I bring it home.

Other gifts, I stopped buying jewelry because of the complaints. She nitpicking the charms for her bracelet that the kids picked out. It got so bad that I finally told her to put it back in the box and I would return it.

We've been in the house for 8 years and the only pictures hanging up are the ones I put in the office. No pictures of the kids or family. If I put them up she will hate where I hang them, she won't make up her mind where to put them. I gave up.

You're a brave person YDRYS, we almost divorced over painting the kitchen. I'd never attempt a full scale cabinet remodel.

Oh I don't have that problem.  I am instead blamed for being too dominant and making decisions the wrong way.

I have the opposite problem with similar results. Fluctuating impulsive decision making without thinking anything through. Definite yes, everyone change their plans to fit around it. Then definitely no, cancel your plans, definitely yes, everyone else can replan, then yes, then no... .Then too late now. End result everyones time is wasted nothing gets done and it annoys everyone.

She rarely admits to being uncertain, if that happens she just freezes. Its very black and white 100% for or against, and struggles to hold one view for very long.

Hmcbart, if you could get a color out of my uBPDw that would help me!  I'm about to simply buy a vehicle that the kids like, and give her the keys.  Then again, I might be living in it afterwards... .

I can't wait to hear how this goes... .please post about it!

Good luck... .  I'll be peeking... .from safely on the other side of the internet... .

FF

So, today is dBPDw's birthday and for the first time in 16 years she stated 'I don't want any presents in the morning, let's wait till dinner... .'  Typically would not be a big deal except that after dinner was party time in my FOO, so when I went that route early in our marriage it was a big issue for her!  So, I pick my battles, and this is not one of them.  We will go out to dinner tonight, (early, because she wants to hold her Bonco (?) game night date with friends since they got her a cake... .), and then it's present time. 

I realized that the delay is her way of pushing off the dissappointment until right before the 'uplift' experience of time with friends.  That makes me sad.  However, to personalize this gift as best as possible, each kiddie (S13, D9, S7) has a 'Microwave Popcorn & Movie Night' gift to give her - complete with microwave popcorn in the red/white striped box, small boxes of their favorite movie theater candy, and a DVD (Sound of Music from D9, Minion Mini Movies from S7, etc... .).  Let's see how this blows through tonight, I've prepped the kiddies that she will likely complain, but it is not their fault... .

The vehicle? I found a good SUV prospect (another one... .) but in passing she says it's too old, it's not safe, we need to pay off the other one, yada yada... .  This after not deciding on a new van, then can't decide on a new SUV, soo let's try a used SUV to see how you like 'em - can't decide because they look too small / they'll make me car sick / high center of gravity... .  How about a full sized one, maybe the XL version - too big, gas guzzler (she's driving my 2500HD Crew Cab 4x4 with a 4.10 gear to pull a race trailer, nothing guzzles more... .).  So, next week I will likely buy this latest prospect, take the keys to the 2500HD and she can pick between the 2 mid size SUV's. 

Just to top it off, her parents are coming this weekend - which means I'll get plenty of free, unsolicited advice as to what is wrong with me... .

Wow, you have an exciting time ahead of you.  lol

I went through the whole birthday thing in April.  A week of being the most evil person in the world because I asked her to clean around the house. Her twin sister was coming in to town to surprise her. I am not allowed to clean certain areas and she gets bent out of shape when I do so I needed her help. I ended up telling her about her sister after 5 days of being treated like crap for asking her to clean. I definitely understand what you're going to be dealing with.

You mentioned car sick? Does she have real bad motion sickness if she isn't driving?

No, I don't think she gets really 'car sick', but perhaps a little bit - the kids just tell her to stop looking at her phone while I'm driving (their advice does not go over very well.)

I've decided that I will no longer get totally stressed out about the Mother's Day, Birthday, Anniversary and Christmas gifts - it's her inability to decide what she likes that totally poo-poo's the event(s).  I'm done devising 3-4 options, and then choosing one at the last possible moment based on her mood and then fretting about the outcome.

The avoidance, silent treatment and distancing over the past 18 months is starting to wear me down though... .

I gave up on anniversaries after the 15th and 16th. She wouldn't even go out to dinner and on the 15th I didn't even get a card. The 17th was different, I treated it like she treated the last 2. You could probably see the mushroom cloud from anywhere in the country. She was so hurt and upset that I would treat our anniversary like it was just another day.

Valentine's is now in the same category after this past February. Yet another  special day that I'm not going to care about. With Father's Day coming up, I'm already setting myself up to not let it get to me. We will most likely be visiting her family during that time and all her focus will be on her dad. If I receive any attention it will only be because we are around others. If we're at home, I'm not even a blip on the radar most days. I've learned not to get my hopes up when it comes to anything that shows me compassion, empathy, or affection. She's just not capable.

It only took me 20 years to figure it out. Saying I'm a slow learner is a major under statement.

I only mentioned car sickness because my wife developed car sickness about 10 years ago it seems. She was always a really bad side seat driver. Her sister was riding with us once and even told her to shut up and let me drive.

I think the car sickness came into play when I stopped being silent about her comments when I'm driving and spoke up. Actually pulled over once and told her she could walk if it would make her happier than riding with me. After that she always has to be driving or take Dramamine.

There always seems to me some kind of illness. I have asked if she had a tumor because of all her headaches.

My wife began treating our anniversary like it didn't matter the day after we were married.  I bought her a beautiful card for our wedding telling her how much she meant to me.  She read it and said, "now that we are married we should quit spending money on cards."  She has bought me one card since that day, 23 years ago.  LOL.

funny how it works. My wife would say something like that and then rage if I actually did why she said.

What is it about birthdays and holidays? Earlier this year I tried to plan a surprise party for him. That was a pretty embarrassing experience... .got one of his friends to set up a "meeting", which he said no to at first, then yes, then maybe, and finally no. Meanwhile, the date, time and location kept changing after I sent my first round of email invitations. I sent the second round saying it might not happen. By the time I sent my third round it was to cancel, with many calls in between. Went around to as many as I could to get them to sign an enlarged photo (of HIM) - drove all over town for this and made tons of calls.

People were still calling and texting their RSVPs up until that day. Some even got annoyed with him for being "flaky". I felt bad and took all the blame since it was a "surprise" and not really his fault. I told them, to be fair, I didn't know his schedule. Then again, he doesn't exactly keep one so how I thought I could pull that off was pretty naïve on my part. I also knew it would come down to what mood he was in the day of the party... .but planning one takes advance preparations and involves too many other people to wait and see. (Is he a grump? No party. Is he ok? Party's on. Oops, he was ok until 5 minutes ago. Party's off.) Sigh. Can't plan events around one person's mood swings... .even if he is the guest of honor!

So his birthday came and went with me only getting him a small gift... .which of course meant I didn't love him. Sighhh. It was mainly because I was too busy planning a party that never happened. He was also mad I went to all that trouble for him... .Last year he was mad because he wanted more of a fuss!

So I took him out to a nice dinner... .and a few weeks later to a resort out of town... .but none of that counted since it wasn't his birthday anymore. Sighhhhhhhh.

Unfortunately, I'm in a situation where it all comes down to this - I'm planning for those that are interested, if you would like to attend fine - if not, that's fine too.  I'll manage the fallout.

That's what happened this past Valentine's. I tried everything I could to get a date with my wife. I hoped for a little affection but I wasn't optimistic of it happening. I went by GameStop after a failed and miserable lunch date where she complained the whole time about where we went to eat and how I should have just canceled the lunch date because I couldn't do a better job of planning.

I picked up a new game the kids and I wanted to play for the Xbox.  After I got home from work, she threw a fit because I bought a video game for myself on Valentine's Day. I had already given her a card, flowers and chocolates. I don't even have the words to describe the way I felt after that. I just looked at her and said "really, you are mad about that?" I laughed at her and walked back down stairs to play the game with the kids.

So I'm with you on planning for something and if she doesn't want to join that's fine. It may actually be more enjoyable without the fun of the silent treatment followed by her laughing and talking nice to other people followed by silent treatment after with a side of criticism, sarcasm and put downs.

One of the major benefits of learning about BPD is predicting future outcomes, like tonight - almost.

So, we went out to dinner early as planned so dBPDw could go to game night with friends.  We were seated as bookends to our 3 kids at a Japanese hibachi grill, but she gave me attitude for not sitting next to her! I disregarded it, but I must have had a surprised look on my face given the avoidance and silent treatment from her over the last year or so! So, she thanked S13 for sitting next to her, he looked at her with a  'WTH are you talking about' look. I was not prepared for that!

The chef is doing his tricks and antics, and flips some food to her and she moves quick and instantly starts complaining that she's hurt her back.  We ignore the repeated statements, but it's just so typical! 

D9 has softball practice so the gift giving was a bit rushed, but with minimal complaints about the kiddie gifts - and then gets the microwave brochure.  Doesn't say much, just starts saying 'okaaaay', 'okaaay'... .who will install it (I already arranged that), who will run the electric (it's already there for the existing range hood), when will it happen... .I know from experience that this line of questioning is an attempt to find a reason to delay the gift.  Then silence, which means it will come up again when she is able to think of a way to thwart the whole thing. So, round 2 is coming, probably while her parents are here this weekend.  Sad.

Wish it wasn't this complicated. A vehicle is next, that will divert the anxiety away from the microwave. 

Hi Hmcbart,


here boundaries and PUVAS are important. What you don't want is making decisions for her - in that enmeshed state of the relationship all responsibilities are muddled. We get blamed for decisions we have been asked to make and the pwBPD can play victim and escape consequences and thus learning. It also erodes over time your ability to make decisions as it is easy to blame the pwBPD for things where you should have simply decided and stuck to your guns.


It is a bigger deal than you believe. It promotes enmeshment and with a less clearer sense of identity the attribution and regulation of emotions becomes more difficult.


First: Boundaries. Don't make decisions that should be made by her. Wean her off that drug. Yes, it won't be liked and there will be accusations of abandonment, unfairness, not understanding, not listening etc... .Extinction burst 101.

Second: PUVAS. Who is responsible for what. Talk more about my and your stuff and our common stuff, responsibility or consequence.

That all was about undoing the move into an unhealthy relationship structure where we enabled responsibility shedding. It still leaves the problems inherent with BPD: Impulsivity, Reactivity, Instability, Anxiety and Fear.  The result depending on the weighting of factors in an individual is either not arriving at a decision or not being able to stick to a decision. Instead of taking their decision making pain we can help them to work through the decision process.

Let's take a step back. How are decisions made by us? We are contemplating facts and then we arrive at a decision. Then we stick with a decision and only if there is a clear signal that the decision was wrong we may reconsider. First we deploy cognitive thinking. The actual decision making then is done in the end through a b&w process where our emotional brain is involved. Then we store that decision and only strong emotional signals validated against our commitment criteria are allowed to restart the process.  

Third. Depending on where the pwBPD is in the process we can support in different ways.

- validation while evaluating facts. Keeping the emotions in check.

- at times in small doses creating awareness of the cost of indecision and the fact that indecision is also a decision

- creating awareness of benefits of decision - clarity of thinking further, moving forward etc.

- when decision is arrived creating awareness of the decision. Validation of anxiety having made the wrong decision. Clarifying the level of commitment.

- when strong signals to the contrary arrive helping with validation of anxiety etc. to stay more rationale. Reminding then of commitment and of value to stick to that. Consideration of price of commitment - in some sense commitments are boundaries and cost something. Creating awareness that re-opening old discussion is another decision that should not be taken lightly. If needed helping to work through the re-opening otherwise helping through the closing down of temporary crisis through validation - it is normal to have doubts and things often go slightly different than planned.

We really can't tell our partners how they should make decisions - they are their decisions and those decisions shape them. Telling them, challenging them would be something a T could do. If your partner is in therapy and is aware of their own struggle to make decisions then maybe that is something to suggest. Our role can only be supportive. There is however still another thing that can have a big impact:

Forth. We are role models. The clearer and open (where appropriate) we go about our own decision making the more input we provide to their learning.

In total this is a bigger change. It takes a while to get all pieces into place but it is doable.

Excellent response anOught.  What is PUVAS?

We don't have much on PUVAS. Maybe we should do a workshop on it  . It is a bit of a complementary advanced skill. The key basic skills while relationship is still in major crisis mode are Validation, Boundaries and SET. More skills won't help much - better skill execution matters a lot. Having said this:

   1) It is mentioned here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

   2) I think my best post on it is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=277372.msg12625982#msg12625982

   3) The description in Stop Walking on Eggshells is about a short paragraph each if memory serves right.

 

I've been pushing the "understand fully" thing in my r/s for a while.

Slow down the conversation... .let me ask some questions... .etc etc.

I'm working hard on being a better validater.  Right now my questions seem to "grate" or inflame her... .I ignore it and press on to get the info... .(I definitely don't fight her over it... .or "call her out"... .I need to learn how to validate it better.

That being said... .I don't consciously think about PUVAS... .but it's a neat way to organize... .

FF

I noticed also that she couldn't make a decision (not all the time) and like it was said, If I made that decision, there was hell to pay.  I was always better off just going with the situation and sitting back and just be supportive.  It's almost like she appreciated me being supportive with "what happens happens". I'm a very logical person and not afraid to make decisions or delegate... .this did not work well for her.

Then again, it seems everything we do is not to their liking. So is it a wonder why so many of us are messed up mentally from trying to please someone in our relationship?

Would you like the ketchup? No, give me the mustard! Is the spaghetti tender enough for you? No, keep it cooking.  Wanna watch a movie? No I'm tired of going to bed early. The list goes on.  Then there are the faces of discontent!  She might not say anything but her expression and body language say other!

That's life


Don't keep trying  to appease the unappeasable and you wont be as messed up.

We often loose ourselves trying to grab hold of smoke rings

All quite true waverider.  I've stopped those things,,but not to say I don't relapse on occassion but more often than not, I can implement the new methods that I try to abide by.  What's harder, this stuff or the new math?  LOL  I guess at times it's hard to understand either!

Can't always understand the seemingly illogical, we dont have the wiring for it. Best we can do sometimes is recognize and accept. Then do our best.