BPDFamily.com

I just needed to be away from all the BPD talk for a few days, take time to myself, and just think.  But I do thank all of you sincerely for all the advice and support I have been given.

Not really too much has changed, but no more violence (thank God).  I've reached out to services for male victims of domestic violence.  I'm hoping to find some kind of group therapy for that.  I keep these outreach activities from my wife, because frankly I am scared to death of her reaction should she find out.  I've also been reaching out more to the men in Alanon, and that has been literally a lifesaver.

I'm still having weird flashback and issues with the violent evening.  I feel a little uncomfortable when she is touching me, especially from behind.  I haven't felt sexual at all in weeks, my T and the information from others says that's a normal reaction after being involved in a traumatic event.  And I am not just talking about not feeling sexual towards my wife, I'm talking that any idea of sex just kinda feels bad to me - even when I see on TV or a movie.   So maybe TMI, but ED for sure. 

My garden is going great.  I spent one day outside all day over the weekend in 100 degree heat just working, and it felt great.  W was in a bad mood and didn't want me in the house anyway.   I've been working on learning to propagate plants I like, and growing veggies using the "three sisters" method.

 

Good to hear from you... .

All of what you talk about seems appropriate for the level of trauma that you have went through... .it's a process... .and you seem to be working hard at processing it.

Have you guys been to MC since the incident? 

Hang in there... .glad the garden is going well... .  I"m currently working on a horse trailer... .I like working on mechanical things... .it helps me think... .and gives me sense of accomplishment.

FF

yeah, one MC session.  15 minutes discussing W's activities and her taking care of herself.  30 minutes discussing baby/pregnancy/prenatal stuff while my head ran and could not ignore the big elephant in the room, and finally me getting really frustrtated and pointing out that we can't have a baby unless I can actually get an erection, and just let it loose right then and there about the difficulties I am having with flashbacks and trauma related stuff.   Another MC session tonight.   

Horse trailer sounds fun!  I put an ad up offering welding service in my neighborhood, and three takers in just a day.  I love welding, but am just a hobbyist and only own a welder to fix my vintage car and make junk art sculptures and household repairs.

I have daughters... .daughters love horses... .so... .I think I'll have this for a while.  4 horse slant load  (1995 model) with compartment in the front for tack.  Eventually... .it will all be painted an up to snuff.

I started out investigating the poor braking performance.  Well... .the first drum I pulled off... .resulted in rusty brake pieces falling on the ground... .so... .4 new backing plates with new self adjusting brakes should be here tomorrow.

Plenty of welding to do on this... .I'm a novice... .hobbyist... .

FF

 

Has there been a discussion about your wife's health (mental and physical) as it relates to having a baby?

Chances of MC, T and P (and maybe OB gyn) to get on same page and say... .present... .whatever... .here is a plan to get you to where you need to be to have a baby... .(in our professional opinion)... .

That way... .you are not the blame... .and it's not your idea... .

FF

Regarding baby - MC actually suggested last week that we start trying soon?  And this after she KNOWS that two weeks prior W attempted suicide?   I can't believe the irresponsibility of the MC.

Backing plates - HA!  The ones on my old ford wore grooves in them, and then would not adjust evenly.  I welded up the grooves, ground then flush, then a new hardware kit, and all is fine.  The trailer sounds like a fun project.  Arc or MIG welding is actually a lot easier than most people realize.  My biggest limitation is that I only have a 20 amp circuit to use, so I can only use a small welder.  Fine for most of what I want to do, but when one guy wanted me to fix his ditch witch, it was something that I couldn't do.

I'm glad to hear you are doing ok, Max. With the stress and trauma you are under, no wonder you don't feel very sexy, atm.   

Max - I am glad you are feeling better.

Something about your posts is confusing to me. You seem to be beating around the bush ( sorry for that imagery) about having a baby. Although you seem to have concerns about bringing a child into this world with the mental condition of your wife, you are doing and saying, anything but that.

Can't have a baby because of your sexual dysfunction? Well that can be addressed- so is your wife thinking that once that is addressed, then you will try for a baby?

Going to pre-fertility OB visits?

Talking about trying for a baby in MC, and the T suggests it. The way you are talking, and your wife is talking, and what you are doing- going to the OB gyn, you are not communicating that this isn't going to happen. In fact, what you are doing makes it seem that it is. Is the T being irresponsible or is she confused- because I am confused by your mixed signals.

I am also reading this with my own experience with dad. Mom would want something, dad would tell us how he feels ( doesn't want to do it) but he would not put his foot down with mom. It could be about anything: a new car, a vacation, a that he can't afford,  We'd see him getting anxious to us, worrying about money. We would plead with him " Dad just say NO" but he couldn't do it. What Momma wanted, Momma got, regardless of the price- emotionally or financially that dad paid.

Max, I am going to be very blunt here. Unless you do not wish to be a father, and are clearly going to say NO -and stick to that NO- no matter what she does, or the emotional price you are going to pay for that NO, I am not so certain that a baby isn't going to be in your future soon. You may want one too, but if not, I don't know if that message is clear.

Hello Max,

Glad you are doing ok. I know I don't comment on your posts but I do read them and follow your situation. I feel for you. Glad you are finding a little peace. I was concerned about your well being also.

Best wishes for your situation

BF

You are absolutely right, Wendy.  I need the strength to say NO.  That's what I am working on now... .

Max: about having a baby with her, I strongly urge you not to do it until after she makes a full recovery (which might or might not happen, who knows?).  In her condition, she is not fit to be a mother to anyone.  Having a baby will not make her happy - it will make more stress in her life and more stress in your relationship.  She will likely psychologically damage any child she has and might be physically abusive to the child.  Plus, with her history of suicide attempts, there's a serious concern that she will make a successful attempt while the child is still living at home.  Research the impacts on children who lose a parent to suicide, and you'll see that it can cause lifelong psychological damage to the child for decades after the parent is gone.  :)on't do it!

I get the need to be able to say no... .everyone needs to be able to say no... .if that is how they feel.

Hmmm... .

Here is what I've been reading from Max's posts... .that he is not opposed to having a baby with his wife IF things improve and the professionals give the nod that it is appropriate (in other words... .she is making progress... .doing better)  Am I close?  This is why I had raised the other question about are all the professionals talking... .going to present joint treatment plan.

Max... .not trying to put words in your mouth... .but maybe it would be good to clarify what you have told you wife... .or clarify your position to us... .so that can be communicated to her.

FF

That's pretty much the gist of it.  At least the way I have felt about it the past year or so.  But somehow the suicide attempt - I just feel so confused in my head right now.  I told my T yesterday that I think I need to personally let go of the idea of having a child, because if that was a strong goal of mine, I would pursue another relationship (a healthier mother).  I just don't think I have completely emotionally let go yet - but as I discussed with my T yesterday, the chances of my W making any kind of recovery are nil.   

The reality is, I got together with my wife and hung on this long in part because I am approaching 40 and feel this is my last chance to have a family.  I feel that if this r/s were to end, I would feel so damaged and not feel like dating seriously for a few years, and by that time I would be mid-40s... .  So, up until a few weeks ago my position was still - she gets a job or at least some kind of career direction, she gets emotionally stabilized (whether off meds or on safe meds), and she finds a T and a P she is comfortable working with, and I would be on board.  But the suicide attempt has forced me to re-think things, and I don't know what my new answer is yet.  Before she would mention or talk about suicide, and I would worry, communicate that with her, and she would assure me she would never, ever attempt suicide, that it is all talk, and she would never hurt me like that.   That promise is broken.  And I don't know where I stand anymore.

Max, I'm glad to know you are ok.  

I agree with the others that having a baby with your wife would be a disaster--for everyone.  

As for your marriage counselor, suggesting you start trying to have a baby knowing your wife's mental illness and knowing she assaulted you recently and then tried to kill herself... .that is far beyond being irrresponsible.  It's insane is what it is.  

 

As I see it, the reality is this:  You can't tell your wife she is unfit to be a mother because she might physically attack you and then try to kill herself.  So you go along to get along in an effort to avoid more violence and trauma to yourself.

When you are strong enough to face her rage and possible violence, tell her NO.  If you have to have her arrested again and hospitalized again, then so be it.  I think you know that is where she needs to be anyway. 



 

It sounds as if you are truly moving toward radical acceptance, in that you are moving toward an understanding of what comes along with accepting the reality, long-term, of the PD's condition.

So... .where does this leave you?  How do you feel about this?

How did you guys arrive at this conclusion?

I see lots of introspection in you at the moment... .

I'm also projecting some of my own experience your way... .if it rings true... .let me know... .if not... .we can chat later about it.

Life altering trauma events stink to go through.  As you become less confused about things... .and start to process what happened... .I would expect that some parts of your life will appear simpler... .clearer... .less things will "matter" to you.  But those things that remain on the list as "mattering"... .will be more important.

Ultimately... .your life is about what matters to you... .figuring that out is an important process.

I'm seeing lots of talk with your T about your wife... .I'm also glad to see some talk about you and why you chose a r/s... .

Straight up advice:  Focus way more on you... .and processing what you have been through.

FF

Not sure.  Still digesting.  I love the woman, care about her, but I can't let that cloud what is best for me, or even best for her.


Time.   That I have been seeing this T for a year and a half, I've tried to make changes that I thought would result in positive change from her, she has gone back to T, two trips to the hospital, and yet she is still physically and verbally abusive.   How can one draw any other conclusion?  Is it like suddenly she may some day find the right T, the right med, or whatever the solution and I see a major change?  That would be like the parting of the red sea.  Small changes?  Sure.  Big ones?  Hell, you know how many times she has promised me she would never yell or scream at me again?  One time it wasn't 20 minutes after that promise and she was at it again.  So I need to think long and hard with clarity about whether the best case scenario is good enough - that being a slow change for the better, with many hiccups along the way.


For sure.  I've been talking often with my alanon sponsor and alanon friends, taking many breaks at work to just walk around the building.  Just really trying to find peace and clarity.


Excellent advice.  Thank you.  And yes, you are right, I am trying to focus more on me.  And my feeling is that after this event nothing is going to feel the same.   Ever.  And that's the truth no matter the fate of the r/s.  I will probably always be a little less trusting.  Sex many never feel the same.  [/quote]

It won't... .right now you may think that is a bad thing... .at some point you may think it is a good thing... .but... .the thing to understand is that it is a major life event... .that will eventually be woven into the tapestry of your life.  I think I have a good sense of you... .you seem comfortable working with a T and making changes based on that... .so... .I am certain that this event will eventually produce positive things in your life... .it will take time to be able to identify those things.

So... .more direct advice:  

You seem to have assembled a good group of professionals.  I'm not getting a sense if they are "playing nice" together or not.

I don't share your and your T's pessimism... .but there is a big caveat to my optimism.  That the assembled group of professionals (assembled due to your hard work) works as a group to help your wife.

and you get out of their way... .and let them do their thing

If your wife runs... .we know the future... .you will be ok.

If you wife at least plays along... .there is hope for the future and you will have to find some energy reserves to let time pass by... .to evaluate the progress.  This is possibly the hardest scenario... .because you are tired.

Don't shy away from this... .you have done the hard work... .you are about to find out what the future holds.

If your wife gets onboard with therapy (even a zigzaggy way)... .I think you can have a dramatically different (better life)

I suspect this is not new info... .but it's good to see it clearly... .

What is the next step towards your future?  

FF

Max,

I want to share my experience, which is much like notwendy's experience of being a child of a mother with BPD. In a nutshell, it is terribly frightening and unsettling for a child to have a mother who is unpredictable and unreliable. I became the "identified patient" in the family because my father was doing his best to support the family and he coddled my mother, just so that she wouldn't blow up and do something radical. So, rather than look at themselves or the relationship, they focused upon me. Normal kid problems became crises in my mother's mind and I learned to believe that there was something "wrong" with me.

I carried that belief until adulthood. Lots of psychotherapy helped, but it still crops up now and then when I'm stressed out. Fortunately I had the self-awareness, the financial resources and the will to change. Even so, it wasn't easy. Because of my family patterns, I gravitated toward mentally ill partners and married two men with BPD.

When I hear about functional families, I'm amazed that people actually have healthy, loving parents. I know my dad did the best he could under extremely trying circumstances. If he had had an emotionally healthy wife, my childhood would have been very different.

I wouldn't wish what I had experienced growing up upon any child and hence, I chose not to have children because I was afraid that I would either parent them the way I had been parented or do a 180. Either option would have been disastrous.

So, it makes my skin crawl when I read about you going to prenatal conferences with your wife after all you've posted about her. My feeling is that you would be doing a child no favors to bring it into the world with that woman as its mother. Sorry that this is so blunt, but I've lived that reality.

Max,

For what it's worth, I believe that you should have a baby with your wife.

I believe that this is why both of you married, and that this is your project together.

Is it the perfect way to have a baby?

There is never a perfect way, just as there is never a perfect time.

There are two willing and interested parents.

One parent who can work to support the child.

Two parents who love each other and have love to share with a child.

She is not going to get better while you make her wait to get pregnant.

You married her, so don't make her "audition" to have your child.

The audition is over; she won the part.

Now it's time for you to play your part.

As someone who experienced a fair amount of instability before becoming a mother, I can say that having children was the best thing that ever happened to my mental health.

I became much more responsible; I never lost another job and indeed have had one promotion after another.

My oldest child is about to begin college at a top university. My youngest is a top student at her middle school and has qualified for an accelerated high school program.

Enough about me; this is about you and her, and your next step as a couple.

I think that you BOTH will make good parents.

Sweet Charlotte, have you followed Max's posts?  You're entitled to your opinion, but I cannot imagine how you could say Max's wife would be a good parent.  Sorry, but your entire post shocks me. 

I'm glad you are hanging in there and finding some support and some things you like. That is huge for you.  |iiii

You were talking about small changes and big ones... .


Think about them for yourself too, not just for her.

Saying NO to having a baby for yourself is a big change on your part.

A smaller one is consistently enforcing your own boundary about yelling and screaming. You can leave immediately when she does. Even if you need to ask the police to do a wellness check as soon as you get out the door.

If you don't stick around to be yelled at, that will change the dynamic. Can you do that?

Yes; I was on the boards when Max began seeing her and I know what she is capable of at her worst. But I also know that Max married her knowing that she wanted a baby and that he wants one too. They don't have much time, and the more he makes her wait, the worse she will get.

My Mom was uBPD as I found out later in life and, although life with her was trying, I do feel that she did her best and was a good parent. I think that Mrs. Sterling has the potential to be a good parent too.

No baby talk in mc tonight.   Not sure why, but mc did not go there.   But the crux... .  after w went on her weekly rant about feeling lonely and abandoned by me (b/c i focus on me rather than her negative whining), mc assumed that we both came into the r/s with seperate hobbies, interests, and ways of entertaining ourselves.  I said yes, for sure, and that i now want to encorporate what w likes, too.  W says she didnt feel like an individual before and was always lonely and could not entertain herself.

Max, I'm also wondering about your MC. Does she have any idea of your wife's problems? Could she be totallyl fooled by her - we all know how convincing BPD's can be when it comes to playing the other person as the "faulty one". From what i've read earlier is that there are tons of issues, and stuff like suicide and domestic violence? I'm pretty shocked.

I also find the idea of having a baby now very unqustionable. perhaps once your wife is mentally (more) stable, but wow... .Pregnancy and post-natal hormones tend to shake up even the very sane persons and drive them into post partum blues or such, i wonder what happens to a persons who's already really unbalanced?  And well babies demand care 24/7. They need love and nurture, even when you are tired, even when you haven't slept a wink, or are sick, or feeling bad... .And I am not really sure your wife will be capable of that.

From what i've read of her behaviour... .She might just reject the child feeling him or her is "too demanding" and abandon her mentally, or even physically. I am afraid she might snap under the pressure and harm the child.

I have lived my childhood with a bi-polar mom (the type with psychotic traits), not BPD but very unbalanced and unpredictable nevertheless. My father, we think a demanding personality with BPD traits but that's unconfirmed. They were loving parents, actually, but a child needs a lot more than love. Stuff like stability, food, shelter... .Childhood with parents like them, it left a lot of scars i've been fixing most of my life.I've been told that the swifting between all sorts of moods and extremes is very damaging to a child.

Learning to say 'no,'

and that 'no' is a complete sentence, has been (apart from JADE and STOP!) one of the most important things I have taken away from this forum.

Remember it is the role of a T in MC to reflect back what she perceives is being communicated within the marriage. If there is abscence of concern about how you feel Max about having a baby at the moment, it is because you are not making it explicit, so the T does not identify it as needing to be addressed.

Maybe her continuous instability comes from your lack of clarity in an area that is so important to her.

If I was your w I would be confused by your actions rather than your words at the moment.

Gardening and me time is great, but does your w know that you do not want a baby with her at the moment, and that there are conditions to this going ahead?

Until you are clear with your wife, her emotionally instability will most likely continue.

I wonder if you remember back to your beginnings here when your wife was continuously dysregulating because you were waiting for her to be emotionally stable before committing to marrying her.

I see the same pattern repeating itself within your marriage at the moment - I wrote a reply to you about keeping your w in a double-bind situation then, do you think perhaps this is happening again ?

I am not going to tell you whether to have a baby or not. That is your choice.

All I can tell you is that if you do not want to have one, and you do not stand firm in your decision, I think it is highly likely that you will become a father.

I know it takes strength to say no- to this and to anything. I have seen the consequences of saying "No" to my mother. We saw these raging fits between her and my father, suicide threats, ruining his possessions. She abused us and she abused him. Like you Max, he was terrified of her scenes, and probably traumatized by her suicide threats/attempts. We were all terrified of her scenes and also of his getting agitated at us for possibly bringing one on if we didn't say yes to her. Not saying "No" would avert a scene, temporarily, but saying "Yes" enabled this behavior. It put her in complete control of our lives.

It was seeing this that gave me the incentive to take action on myself and my relationship. While we do have some issues, I also recognize the spectrum. We are at the milder end, compared to my mother, who is at the severe end of the spectrum. I believe that everyone here has to take our own individual circumstances into consideration- and severity of issues is part of that. However, although my father started out with a difficult situation, enabling made it more difficult. I didn't want to be an enabler and I was. That was scary to me.

Not saying No when he meant No, possibly averted a storm, but that was temporary from what we could see.

It's not the T's responsibility to "go there" regarding babies. If you and your wife aren't making it a topic that is a priority, the T may think you want or need a break from talking about it.

That being said, I'm surprised MC is spendthrift Nguyen time on hobbies so soon after a suicide attempt... .seems like there are more substantial topics lined up.

I'm sorry, SweetCharlotte, but scholastic success has absolutely no correlation to psychological well-adjustment. I graduated at the top of my high school (#3 in a class of over 1000) and magna cum laude at a large university. Yet I had zero emotional intelligence.

My mother isolated me and used me as her security blanket and I had no good role models for how to be a kind and successful human being. I loved her dearly, but it was a form of child abuse.

Max certainly can make his own decisions about whether to bring a child into this world. My opinion, as a child of a mentally ill mother, is that it's important to consider the emotional well-being of a child who will be raised by a woman who has a history of violence, abuse and self-harm.

 

Well said Cat Familiar,


I'm definitely more comfortable in areas where "emotions" aren't as big a deal... .

I did well in school... .and have the ability to focus on task completion... .getting big things done.  Was able to lead large groups of people... .land a plane on an aircraft carrier... .

Yet... .connecting with others on an emotional level... .especially if I "disagree" with their emotions... .is something I'm working on right now.

FF

"spendthrift Nguyen"m ?  Where did auto-check get THAT?

... ."spending time"

I respectfully and strongly disagree with SweetCharlotte's recent posts on this thread.  

Max: your wife just attacked you physically, attempted to murder herself, completed a mandatory hospital stay, and she seems to have learned nothing from any of this.  She seems to be incapable of taking care of herself and is incapable of being a wife to you... .how anyone could advocate for bringing a child into that situation is beyond my comprehension.  

In my MC... .

If you asked SO and myself what we discussed... .  You would think we both attended different sessions with different partners, as what we experienced was completely contradictory!  I don't think this is unique to BPD or PD, but all pple.  Just like that parable of the blind pple touching the elephant, they are asked to describe an elephant... .each describes a completely different thing.

Is it possible that W was making having a baby seem top priority, therefore, unwilling to shift focus until validated on this... .

Then when MC attempted to validate... .  Maybe said, "hey, let's address this having a baby concern now and dealt with this now, we need to explore this trying to have a baby topic"

Maybe MC was trying to resolve it vs encourage her own belief on the situation? (not necessarily support a specific decision)

Have you asked the MC directly if she is supportive of the two of you having a baby?  Has she explicitly expressed this opinion as being her own?  (If she hasn't... .I would not assume.  If she has... .I would question her qualification as a therapist, this would concern me greatly)

There is so much in these few sentences that is unsettling to me. A baby should not be used to "treat" a woman's mental illness. A baby is a human being not an RX.

I can certainly attest that having me did not help my mom's mental illness.  (She had her first psychotic episode following my birth, this lead to her first hospitalization ever.  The first in a series of many to follow.)

The idea of this does unsettle me much.

I sometimes go over to the family board... .

Express this same idea there... .see how many have had parents that are mentally ill... .see how many feel that their existence was a gift to their parent's illness... .or how they feel about this.

That is a BIG responsibility to put on a baby!

Having structure, purpose, meaning... .  are all things that can help a person to lead an improved life.

There are other paths to get this!

I'm with Cat on the statement that a child's high academic achievement is not evidence that there is no issues. In fact, for us kids, it was used as that, and so nobody would believe us if we told them anything was wrong. People would say " it can't be that bad, look how well you turned out" and ignore our emotional needs.

For me too, achieving was a way to get approval from my family, especially my mother who boosted her poor self image with our achievements. Many of my FOO have degrees from some of the top schools in the nation.

I once called social services on behalf of a kid when I heard someone talk about him making suicide threats. I was not the only one who did this as several people had heard this and called social services too. I didn't know much about the reasons or circumstances, or if he was serious, or joking, but I will not ignore this. I know there were many issues at home but I don't know the details. I don't think the kids got any meals outside of school lunches. The kids were at the top of their class. Dad would say " I can't be all that bad, look at how well they are doing".

Some kids will act out in school and underachieve, but others can make school the place where they compensate for what is going on at home. School is a place to get affirmation and validation and support from peers. It is absolutely a good thing when this happens, for the child now and if it gets them to college later. It is indicative that the child is very bright, but it is not always evidence that home is OK.

"I wonder if you remember back to your beginnings here when your wife was continuously dysregulating because you were waiting for her to be emotionally stable before committing to marrying her.

I see the same pattern repeating itself within your marriage at the moment - I wrote a reply to you about keeping your w in a double-bind situation then, do you think perhaps this is happening again ?"

I will also call out this amazing statement from Sweetheart. You marry someone as they are, not who they might be if only they ... .get therapy, straighten out, do this do that. These "if only's" imply that you do not accept the person as they are, or the "if only's " may not be achievable. One can not marry someone expecting them to change for the better. Marriage does not do that. Neither do babies.


Max, asking your wife to be emotionally healthy and off all medications in order to have a baby may not be possible. Mental illness is a lifelong issue. She may need the medication to be at her best.

To have or not have children is one of those big issues when considering marriage. If one spouse marries assuming that they will have kids, and then the other spouse says no, then this is devastating to the spouse who wants kids and assumed that they would have kids. However you marry your spouse- and you hope, but can not guarantee that kids will be in picture. Two wrongs don't make a right. If for some reason, having kids would not be good for the kids, or a parent is not able to be a parent, then that is a decision the parents must consider carefully.

Thanks everyone for their input.  The thing is, prior to the marriage, I feel like I had learned to deal with the deregulations from time to time, she was on NO meds of any kind at that time, complained of pain, but not chronic debilitating pain, and did not consider herself incapable of working or contributing to the household.  At that time, raising healthy children seemed doable, and a goal that could be worked towards.  I felt I understood BPD enough to work with her on her issues. 

We got married earlier than we wanted to mainly for insurance reasons.  Fine.  But soon were the multiple-weekly doctor visits, the pain killers, the Xanax, and the suicide attempt.  To me, that changed something in my brain, and voided the contract.  Last summer, I would have said that she may have bad moods often, but at least the drug use and the suicide attempts were in her past.  Now they aren't.  So, if someone like SweetCharlotte said having a baby then was a good idea, I could see her viewpoint.  But right now? 

Max - two wrongs don't make a right.

You can marry with intentions, and then things can change.

Then you have to make the best decision you can with the changes at hand.

Spouses sometimes have to make different decisions. In some cases the marriage lasts and in some it doesn't. A person who gets married to someone who treats them well,  and then finds that their spouse is beating them isn't obligated to stay. This is only one example of changes that can happen.

You can only make the best decision you can with what you know now. But if that decision is no, but your wife wants yes, then unless you stick to that no with all the strength you can muster, then that no may become a yes. I also say this because the sex drive is strong and particularly hard to resist, and you could not use protection in a moment of weakness. In general, I think couples agree together to use, or not use, contraception, but when one wants to use it, and the other doesn't, this seems to me to be more risky for the one who does not wish to conceive.

Wow, there is so much terrific input on this thread. And the issues are so profound.

"Right now?" Maybe I'm getting mixed up, but some of the recent events in your relationship have been so striking, that I think I remember, in the last six months, the following things:

Highway police chase, with police helicopter in pursuit of Mrs. Sterling

Near-success of suicide attempt

Involuntary hospital stay

Physical battery of maxsterling

Opinion of a mental health professional that Mrs. Sterling would be a good candidate for electroconvulsive therapy

I guess I'm wondering who is in the very best position to help you make decisions from this point. And hoping that that person can have all the information in one place in order to provide guidance.

I'm sorry that you now have this additionally painful task of facing up to the baby issue.  :'(

 

There seems to be an assumption (I could be wrong) that there are two answers to the... .let's have a baby question.

In Max's r/s... .and in general.

Yes... .or no... .

I think max is saying the third answer... .which is a great answer... .I believe.  "Not right now"

So... .I've got 8 kids... .there have been lots of baby discussion over the years... .I've never been totally against one.  But there have been times when I took steps... .BC... .and so did my wife... .to prevent it.  Because the answer was "not right now"

There have been other times where we actively tried... .and other times when we were up for the surprise... .whenever that came.

Surprises are best... .IMO.  Assuming you are in a place where you are ok with getting a surprise.

I'm going to post this... .but not sure if I just went off on a rabbit trail or not.

Hope this makes sense or adds something to the discussion.

Hmmm

Last thought.  If both max and his wife get to the point where they both believe that having a baby is a good idea... .then it's a good idea for them.

I have no sense of Max's wife... .other than what I've gotten through Max.  I do get  good sense of who Max is... .and I think the chances of him changing his mind on this... .without a good reason... .are about zero.

Trying to say that I think Max has good judgement in this area.

FF

Well I know she is at T right now.  A good thing.  She's having dinner with AA sponsor this evening - a good thing.  Me going to men's alanon meeting tonight - a good thing.

But today is another - "it's all my fault" day. 

Oh, last night in MC, she expressed tons of frustration that she "waits around" for me to notice her and make plans with her.  My feeling is I try, and get unexcited responses, "whatever" or "I guess so".  So I quit trying.  Too many complaints of pain, headaches, etc, and I have learned here to try, and then just do my own thing because I can't fix her. 

But she said last night "maybe that is why I took the OD, to get him to notice me... ."  About the single hardest thing I have ever had to hear.   

And this morning - my fault because she asked me whether she should buy or make a birthday card for her sister.  I mentioned that I like the ones she makes.  An hour later I got the "WHY DID YOU TELL ME TO DO SOMETHING THAT I ALREADY TOLD YOU I DIDN'T WANT TO DO?" response.

Max,

You say you love your wife, but I wonder what specifically do you love about her?

Your posts let me know that you're an honorable man who bends over backwards trying to make things better for her, but what about your needs to be loved, respected and treated kindly?

Is what you're currently experiencing on a day to day basis with her something that you plan on living with the rest of your life?

If not, what do you imagine changing?

I made the marriage commitment to my first husband and the life I led with him turned into a living hell as the years went on. I saw the "potential" in him and believed that if I just loved him with all my heart, I could turn things around and bring out the "good" side in him, the one that wasn't financially irresponsible, drug-dependent, unfaithful.

The way it played out was that I grew to despise him; I could not forget nor forgive all the past betrayals. Ultimately I felt like I was "waiting to die." Thankfully, after many years and betrayals, I drew a boundary about behaviors I would no longer tolerate: violence and infidelity. And when he smashed through my boundaries, I had to ask myself if I was going to be true to myself or if I was going to go to my grave tolerating those things. I made the correct choice.

My new husband is aggravating and self-absorbed at times, but he is generally kind and well-intentioned. If I hadn't had mental illness in my FOO, I would have been more likely to pick healthy marriage partners, but this one is pretty good, all things considered.

Max, you're not quite forty yet. There's still time for you to meet an emotionally healthy woman and have children if that's what you want. Otherwise, it's a fantasy to believe your wife can make all the changes you wish she could make in a very limited time frame.

Like others have said, you married her the way she is. It's not fair to expect her to be a different person.

You tried. She tried. I can't see any way that "not right now" remains a humane approach for you to maintain going forward.

Good comments everyone. 

I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with a DV advocate.  She set me up with an appointment Monday afternoon, and that will get me into a group therapy for male victims of domestic violence.

She was very helpful, and gave me resources and phone numbers, and urged my safety is #1.  She said DV situations almost always get worse, and after being hit one time, there will almost always be a next time and it will be worse.  She REALLY stressed my safety, having a safety plan, safe houses, and considering filing an order of protection.   I know we have been discussing baby stuff and r/s stuff, but I think this woman is right - I need to focus on my safety and my health.  There's no reason to even entertain even the question of a baby question right now. 

She said their services could also help with legal separation questions.  Mostly I just want to talk to other men who have faced similar.   Group therapy could be good for me.

Excellent, excellent news.  |iiii

The more I think about it, the more I am glad I called that place.  Interestingly, it was the same place my W went to for trauma therapy before we got married. 

I was sure to let the woman know my wife is mentally ill. And she was very firm and saying that she understands, she knows I care for her, and the work I have put in, but none of that matters if I am not safe.

I was hit on the back of the head.  That's on the 911 tape.  Had it been a glass or something harder than an I-phone, and I could be DEAD right now.  I was punched in the chest - heart area, enough to leave about the biggest deepest bruise I have ever had.  Much harder, and I could be dealing with broken ribs or worse. 

The woman was right - my safety is #1, and this is serious.  Yes, W has apologized, but is she remorseful?  In MC two weeks ago she said she needed to move forward from it and not talk about it in MC.  Ok.  Last night in MC was her complaining about me and her perception that I don't like to spend time with her.  Considering she punched me in the chest, hit me in the back of the head, ODd, and was in the hospital for a few days, I'm a pretty darned nice forgiving guy for taking her on a camping trip the week later.   

The sidebar on this site says SAFETY FIRST.  I need to remember that.  It seems like I have forgotten that, and have been just going around trying to learn to validate her needs, communication skills, dealing with suicide threats, etc, and forgotten to put ME first.  Yeah, she tried to kill herself.  But her life was not the only one at risk that night.

Yay Max!

Contacting the DV center is a very important first step. Speaking from my experience as a battered wife, I know how easy it is to minimize physical attacks when there's nothing broken or bloodied. However, each attack leaves a deep psychological wound.

What I realized is that even though my husband may have not intended to severely injure me, it could very well have happened. When hit, people can fall, hit their heads on the corner of the bathtub or a kitchen counter and that can be lights out forever.

When I finally wrapped my head around the thought that he could inadvertently have killed me, I realized I was never again going to tolerate being hit. And when he went into that final rage and chased me down the driveway the last time, I finally yelled for help, as humiliating as that was. Though probably no one heard me since it's a rural area, it definitely changed the dynamic and I realized I was done with the marriage. He couldn't believe that I wouldn't just let it go and forgive him once again, but in my mind, it was totally over.

Yes, you need to hear from other men in your situation. Without consequences, domestic violence gets worse. Probably even with consequences it gets worse. The biggest question to ask yourself is "Why would I live like this?"

I'm very glad you're finding the resources you need to support you.

Max, if you do not want a child with your wife, then at some point you are going to have to say those words directly to her.   

When/if you are ready to do that, for your own safety please have witnesses present--a therapist, doctor, etc.  Telling her when you are alone with her at home could result in violence against you. 

Another 'YAY' Max! It's really good you called the DV center and you understood the need to make sure of your safety and making that a priority. And she's right - domestic violence usually starts quite small and escalates so slowly that the abused once do not even realize it's getting worse and start to believe it's because of his/her bad behaviour the abuser has no other choice, but to beat them.

I remember thinking previously (before yer marriage) that your wife was aware of her issues, at least on occasion, and trying to take responsibilyt. From your text now it sounds like your wife doesn't take responsibility for her actions, but sees it like you forced her to do something drastic (to get your attention). I have studied DV patterns and reasons a bit clinically when i was at university and it is the way of thinking I find alarming. There are cases of DV where the abuser is so shocked of his/her behaviour that will work on his/her actions and behaviour and make sure it will never happen again. the "i had to do it, because you something something" is usually a very bad sign.

I second the others here - saying NO firmly, but without rage is important. Saying "no, we are not going to have a baby NOW" is good too.

It is possible to say NO to domestic violence, or the abuse, without divorce. In my opinion it would require a consequence, too. Like you leaving for three days every time you feel threatened, and sticking to that plan.

Your situation sounds so draining that, in your shoes, i would take a small time out. Like a weekend or maybe a week somewhere else. Spend it with friends or others in similar situation.

 |iiii  Safety first.

And Max, one thought about having a baby NOW. (As opposed to later)

I know of a few people (mostly women) who were being abused, who had children. And while they (at the time) weren't willing to leave an abusive relationship for themselves, or at least weren't ready yet... .they hit a point where they knew that they had to get their child out for the child's safety and wellbeing. That they weren't going to let a child grow up seeing one parent abuse the other one emotionally.

If you aren't sure for YOUR safety with your wife, what about a future child's safety? Think about that before you allow yourself to produce a baby.

I'm really glad you are getting help, not just here.

 GK

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