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This is more of an undecided topic, but you folks here know me best.   My head is back and forth - serve her tomorrow am, or try one more counseling session at noon?

One more counseling session with the two of you?  If so, I would be inclined to go to the session with her, (and by "with her" I mean you meet her there) but not in the hopes of it fixing anything.  I would use the counseling session as a neutral place with a witness present to let her know that you will be taking action to stop both the verbal and physical abuse you have endured. 

That could mean you will ask her to move out and seek help on her own, or it could mean that you tell her you see no other option except divorce, or it could mean that you ask for a trial separation, or it could mean that you tell her you have an Order of Protection against her that will be served shortly. 

Whatever you do, do not let her talk you into returning home with her there.  Another assault is an almost certainty if you do.  Or worse.   

Could you serve at the end of the session if it is contentious?

It has to be served by police.   If it went real south, i could call 911.   Atm i am leaning to trying counseling so long as she agrees.  Any abuse via text email or phone tonight, and i serve tomorrow am.

What would be your intent in attending a counseling session? Are you hoping to give her another chance? Or would it be a neutral space where you could tell her how her behavior has impacted you? Are you planning on serving her soon or would that be up in the air depending upon how the session went?

Years ago I paid the marshall to serve a subpoena on a civil matter. Apparently they tried a few times and never were able to complete the service, so it never was received. Is she likely to evade it if they try to serve her?

My feeling is that she is going to put on quite a show and try to suck you back in.  Please don't fall for it. 

I really don't know.  I am back and forth on this.  But my gut tells me the session will not go well.  The nice guy in me wants to give her a chance, not just in the r/s, but if she wants to part amicably or take a break without going through the OOP.  I think that's probably a pipe dream.

MC didn't even call me back tonight.  That frustrates me.  W gave me all kinds of threatening texts and screaming voicemails saying she was not going to go unless I would "admit my part in it" She knocked it off by about 3pm, and after that my phone was quiet.

I called the social worker again, she said she can get me into a men's group therapy for DV starting this Monday.  She also stressed my safety, and stressed that it is probably in my best interest to just serve the OOP soon.  I told the social worker that my guess is W will immediately try to contact me after the order is served, and she said that is likely, and I should call police and report that violation.  That would then be a misdemeanor, a large fine, and possibly jail time.

This is where I am having a hard time.  A few weekends ago we had a mostly fun camping trip.  And now we are down to this.  Yes, she has always landed on her feet.  But really?  In my mind, she hasn't, and she's just damn lucky she has made it to 39.  An OOP = I think she would find someone else to take her in, somehow.  But as low functioning as she has been,I truly believe this would determine the rest of her life is spent crashing with relatives, working occasionally, or living in group homes, just like her mother. 

Not that that is my problem or should influence my decision about my own safety, but it does make me feel quite sad.

One more MC means nothing to your wife other than a platform for her to blame you for what has happened. You already know this she has already started blaming you in her messages to you.

I understand feeling sad about this happening and wanting to hold on to happy memories, but from your time on this board max the happy times sound very few. What has become more evident is the steady escalation of serious instability which has now become violent.

All the professionals you have been in contact with have given you very sound advice based on their experience and the legal board has echoed the same. The reason they are telling you to serve the OOP, is because they know that a clear indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour. They also know that once a SO has crossed a boundary into physical violence it is very unlikely to stop unless protective measures are put in place.

I can hear you are worried about your wife, but it is worth noting that with all this going on, whilst you have not been there, she has been managing ok, being in contact with others meeting her own needs. What is important for you to do at the moment is look after your own needs by  putting yourself first.

Dont combine serving with a session, or anything else. It needs to be separate issue carefully chosen. Otherwise you are in danger of a knee jerk reaction based on the mood of the moment

The consequence of serving is longer lasting and should not be influenced by a potential reaction.

Are you still not sure, and are fishing for a provocation, to have the decision forced from you?

Big picture actions should be based on big picture decisions.

It is likely that what is said in the now has no real impact on the long term, its just words.

And... .don't pay attention to words... .pay attention to actions.

My only caveat to that... .is that the use of words to "blow up your phone"... .and the abusive stuff... .means that she is somewhat dysregulated (which unfortunately is normal for her)

I've got more advice for next post... .but this struck me as critical... .

Stay strong Max... .!

 

FF

 

Max,

Tough spot to be in... .you are an awesome... .standup guy for trying to hard... .  I like that.   You are a can do guy!

Go to one more counseling session... .with a gameplan 

This is the toughest of the two options (IMO)... .because it exposes you to the chance for her to push your buttons.  Go look in mirror... .think... .if you see nice max going to the counseling session.  Have her served and stay out of it

If centered... .boundary loving Max can go to the session... .there is a chance for something productive to come of this.

No guarantees.

If you go to session... .your only goal is to have her hear 1 message... .I'm assuming you have 50-60 minutes in session.

Tweak out this message in writing.

"Wife, the future of my participation in the r/s depends on your dealing with DV and behaviors that go along with it (I would shy away from saying a disease "caused it)." 

"I can't make this choice for you.  I need to know which choice you will ACT on... ."

Leave it at that... .hopefully the MC will keep redirecting the conversation back to an answer.  If she wants to act on it... .the discuss what that looks like.

Boundary:  I would not discuss any of "your fault" for DV.  Zero discussion.  I would not argue and say ... .or claim that you are not at fault.  That is getting off message.

"The future of my participation in the r/s... .(get back on message)"

Assure her that you are willing and able to participate in any and all discussions about ANY issues she has... .AFTER professionals assure you that she has dealt with DV issues.  (don't get sucked into debating treatment options... .you both know this will be long process)

I'll hush for now... .with a final though.  If it goes well... .she will need a place to stay.  My hope is hospitalization... .but... .you guys can't be together until professionals assure you that she is complying and they recommend it.

 

Hope this advice helps... .

FF

My advice is that you really need to choose a path, and take at least a few more steps down it. The paths I see for you:

1. Walk away from your marriage and your wife. Protect yourself. Let her find her own support network and team, but you can't be that person for her, at least until you personally are safe.

2. Keep working on your marriage, working on boundaries, and that includes keeping enough physical distance to be safe, and being in contact with her when you are grounded and centered and she isn't dysregulated.

I think if you try to do both, neither one will go well. (For example telling her T about your plans, which got back to her... .I advised against that because I figured that her T was legally and ethically obligated to look out for your wife's interests and NOT YOURS.)

However I don't believe that taking a week's walk down either path will prevent you from trying the other one again. So while I'm encouraging you to decide, I still believe you have room to change your mind.

There is also path #3... .go away for a while (or send her away for a while, if you want to be more sure you keep your house safe) to take care of yourself, get your head straight, get away from your wife... .and allow yourself some time to make the decision. Call it an emergency separation, as opposed to a therapeutic separation, which is possible on path #2.

I just want to second this comment and add one other to it:

If you serve her the OOP... .and later go back with her... .and then this starts happening all over again... .you will be in the same situation, except for one thing--your credibility with the law enforcement system is now much worse. You asked for protection from her, then went back to her, breaking the order yourself.

If you can keep yourself safe at the same time you allow yourself some space to think about this big choice, before it is forced on you, you are more likely to make the right choice for yourself the first time.

 "men's group therapy for DV starting this Monday."

Whatever you decide, IMHO, I would urge you to do this.

As to your ambivalence, I can understand this. I watched my father cycle through this many times. However, in his day, he was isolated with his issues, nobody to talk to about this.

It isn't good to parentify a child, but once I became older, that's the way it was in the house, because I "outgrew" my mother emotionally at some point. Every once in a while, Dad would get to the point where he'd had enough, and speak to me about it. But he couldn't stand to see mom hurt, and he didn't go through with it. Eventually, I learned that getting into this conversation was being part of the dysfunctional triangle.

My mother blamed me for all of their relationship issues. I was convinced that when I left for college, they would be fine. Things did seem to get better after the kids left home, because we were no longer a challenge to their world. Yet Dad got more and more isolated with her- living in a world designed by her feelings- and without someone else who knew about it to talk to. It should not have been me, but I wish he'd had someone.

Watching this was when I knew I had to take action, and I got into counseling to try to make sense of all of this. I think this is why it is called FOG- cloudy and unclear. People here have given you great advice, but nobody can decide for you. A support group can be a source of objectivity and support no matter what you decide.

all great thoughts.  I didn't sleep well.  I'm up, it's a beautiful morning, I'm thin asking of a walk.  Then an al-anon meeting.  I've got a page open on my browser defining what "assault" and "domestic violence" mean in my state.  She's clearly committed crimes against me.  Should I go to counseling with her today, that needs to be my sole focus.  I can't stay in this r/s unless she is willing to seek help for those clearly criminal behaviors:

1) hitting/physical injury

2) destroying property

3) threatening to destroy property

4) threatening to injure

5) Threatening words used to intimidate

6) Harassment by phone

As I lay right now, I don't see a MC session focusing on that going well, at all.  She WILL blame shift.  I am hoping the MC will call me back this morning. If so, I tell MC my intent is to see if she feels we can stay on that topic. And I will also pay attention to my phone this morning, to see if W is sounding threatening or sounding remorseful. If I don't think the above is possible (staying on topic in MC session), there is no reason for me to go and be abused all over again.  I will go to my alanon meeting, then walk across to the police station and have OOP served.  

 

Max,

I hear/see a "resoluteness" about you now.

This is good.

Go to counseling today.

The only way you get abused in counseling... .is if you allow it.

If you are willing to serve the OOP... .I would hope you are willing to enforce a no abuse boundary in counseling... .or anywhere... .for that matter.

Tactically speaking though:  MC is a chance to communicate with professional help.  It may not work.  If she starts to abuse... .warn and stop talking... .let MC take the lead in trying to calm.  I'm not saying you have to sit through an entire session of her blathering... .if she does.  

But... .the goal is communication... .so... .you may need to take a 5 minute break to let MC have a chance to calm her.

Or... .she may dysreg and leave.

Personal note:  I've never walked out on counseling... .my wife has.  Several times.  That is how I found out about BPD... .after she stormed out... .I stayed... .and asked MC what I was dealing with.  BPD was the answer... .

That being said... .I've never had a session long abuse ... .it's been abusive for 5... .maybe 10 minutes... .but counselor was able to get it under control... .or my wife left.

FF

Max what are your feelings? What do you want?

IMHO, making a decision based on your wife's behaviors is putting the decision in her hands. I will do this if you do that... .

The issue isn't about one session of MC, a moment in time, but the pattern. How your wife behaves over time, not an hour. Someone who is volatile is capable of being calm for a while and then enraged.

This is a cycle- a cycle of blowing up, then being really really sorry and sweet for a while- sometimes it is 5 minutes, sometimes longer. However, none of this is something you can control or with conditions. Mental illness is mental illness.

IMHO, it's the total package or not. The good times come with the rest of it. You mentioned that you can't understand this after a nice camping trip. Well that was the nice time, but that was one part of the whole.

She could be perfectly fine in MC or not. but one hour of MC is only a tiny fraction of the whole of the time spent with her.

IMHO, the bigger picture is the whole of it.

Max, be very clear that the OOP means you will not see her, speak with her, have any type of contact with her for one year and perhaps longer.  Are you ready for that? If not, that may guide how your day plays out. If you are ready, you are ready.

May your angels be on your shoulder today, my friend.

I think notwendy nailed it.  It's about the pattern of behavior and the big picture, not how she may behave during one counseling session. 

From reading your posts over a long period of time, it seems your life revolves around going from one counseling or therapy session to another, none of which has helped her signficantly, and dealing with one dysregulation after another. The big picture is that she is very, very sick and getting worse.   

I posted last night that I thought your wife might put on a show during the counseling session today and try to suck you back in.  I actually kind of doubt that now given that she has left you "screaming voicemails" saying you need to admit your "part in it."  If she needs to make you feel that you caused her to hit you and verbally abuse you, then she is a long way from where she needs to be.

 

 

She may try to put on a "show" today... .either way... .to suck you in... .or push you away.

Ignore both... .use the professional's help to communicate what you need/want to communicate to your wife.

Then... .watch her actions... .over a long period of time... .

FF

If you're ready to serve the OOP, you will know from the depth of your entire being.

My ex-husband cycled from abuse to normal behavior over and over and I kept getting sucked back into the relationship. It was hard to consider a permanent split because of shared assets and a business. He would apologize for the violence, but then later it was my fault because I had set him off. I wavered for years until one day there was a defining moment and I knew with absolute certainty that I was done. I've never regretted for a minute that choice, but I have regretted waiting so long to make that decision.

I woke up this morning after a mostly restless sleep, took a shower, looked in the mirror, and saw another bruise - deep purple - from Wednesday night.  At that point, my mind was mostly made up.  I decided I would go to an Alanon meeting, pray, share about it, ask for help.  I stood up and said I am a victim of domestic violence.  I feel that took courage.  As I left, I tried calling the MC one more time.  I have not heard back from her in 3 days, and once again had to leave a voicemail.  I told MC that to cancel the noon meeting, that I was going to serve an OOP, because I could not see where any good would come out of one more session, only more abuse and blame.  I then called my dad, let him know what was going on, and he said he suspected this, and supported my decision.

I then called police.   They said I needed to be somewhere in the vicinity of my wife, but I was a few miles away.   They instructed me to go to near where she is, park at a local store, and call the police from there.  So, I drove by the house to the shopping center across the street, but my wife's car was not there.  I waited.  It was getting to be only an hour before the scheduled MC session, and then the MC called.  I talked to MC and said exactly the same thing again.  I am not willing to sit through another hour of abuse.  MC said she would call W and let her know the session was off.  W immediately texted me, said she was prepared to go to MC and asked why I called it off.  I replied that I felt it would be pointless to go if she is wanting me to accept blame for domestic violence, and that I need her to get specific help for DV if this r/s is to continue.  I expected her to explode, but she didn't.  So I agreed to meet her at MC, thinking that if she takes the abusive blame route at MC, I can call police from there. 

I was sure to get to MC first, talked to MC, said that I refuse to sit an listen to blame, and said the session needs to be under control.  When W showed up, MC actually set some good ground rules of no details and no blaming.  MC actually did an OK job of keeping things on topic.  W actually listened to me when I said that I feared her, and feared the violence, and that i was seeking trauma therapy.  Of course, W tried playing victim herself, still tried accusing me of being controlling by calling police on her, but MC was better about getting things back on topic this time. 

In the end, I am still staying with friends for two more nights.  Then we agreed to sleep in separate bedrooms for awhile.  W said she had nowhere else to go... .more later.

 

On top of all the DV issues... .the phone call hassles with MC must have been really frustrating.

I am glad you got in the same room... .with a professional.  Sounds like you were able to say what you had to say.

So... .how do you feel?  Now that you have said it... .and it seems she has heard it. 

Very different from details about what to do... .bedrooms... .where to go... .etc etc.

FF

Not sure how I feel. Half is saying I wish she was home earlier so I could have served the order and this was all over.  The other half is "wait and see".  Notice no "half" is saying "things are gonna be okay". 

I'm glad MC went mostly okay today.  But wary that it's just one day.  In other words, odds are probably greater than 90% I will be dealing with DV again within a month. 

Good news is that this arrangement means W wants freedom to take care of herself.  GOOD!

But thinking later - I am thinking I have a crappy MC.  CLEARLY by every metric on DV, I am a victim, and by every statistic I am likely to face more harm.  Yes, I am aware of that, have been told that, and know I can do something about that.  But I do feel a little shocked that this MC has never once called me or pulled me aside and told it to me straight up... .    I'm not so much thinking about myself, but of other patients who are DV victims.  Is there a responsibility to therapists to recognize obvious signs of abuse and offer lines of support?

Your MC T is only duty bound to report something if one of her patients is at risk of imminent harm or death. So to report it she would have to believe your life or your wife's is in danger, these are fairly standard guidelines.

It is also worth saying that it is her professional responsibility to recommend discontinuing MC whilst there is active DV. It is her duty to keep you both safe and acknowledge that the sessions can become triggers in themselves for your w, increasing the risks and that then endangers you. Has she done this ? If she hasn't I would suggest you instigate this yourself, you both have separate T's.

Hi max wanted to link this to my post but couldn't edit so anyway here it is

www.ocadsv.org/sites/default/files/aic_couples-counseling-not-recommended-dv.pdf

Max,

This seems very healthy and grounded to me.  It's not about what she said today... .you want to "see" what she does.

Very... .very good.

Where are you going to put your boundary lines?

Not just for DV... .but for abusive behavior... .

Am I correct when I suggest that the abusive behavior starts with talk (blaming) of some sort?

You have clearly communicated that you are in fear and taking steps to protect yourself.  Now is the time to make big adjustments... .and be consistent about that.

She may act shocked... .but really... .my guess it what is coming through is a fear of loosing control over you. 

Sounds like you have a day or so to think this through.

FF

I woke up this morning after a mostly restless sleep, took a shower, looked in the mirror, and saw another bruise - deep purple - from Wednesday night.  At that point, my mind was mostly made up.  I decided I would go to an Alanon meeting, pray, share about it, ask for help.  I stood up and said I am a victim of domestic violence.  I feel that took courage.  As I left, I tried calling the MC one more time.  I have not heard back from her in 3 days, and once again had to leave a voicemail.  I told MC that to cancel the noon meeting, that I was going to serve an OOP, because I could not see where any good would come out of one more session, only more abuse and blame.  I then called my dad, let him know what was going on, and he said he suspected this, and supported my decision.




Max, I commend you for speaking the truth to others and reaching out for help. This is a huge step. Denial is thick. When things are good in the r/s, we can tend to slip back into thinking "well they are not so bad".

Regardless of what decision you arrive at, telling the truth, asking for help, is a first step to not lying to yourself and others about your situation.

Ultimately, I think this is our own undoing- abandoning ourselves, our reality, our boundaries- when we are not honest. There is no shame in asking for help and I am glad you are doing it. It takes a lot of support to stay or leave in these situations. Perhaps even more support is needed if the decision is to leave, because it is venturing into a new situation.

I echo Notwendy's sentiments. For years I kept my domestic violence victimhood a secret. I was ashamed. However, when at last I no longer cared about protecting him and our "shameful secret," things changed and I found my power again.

Max, you say that you feel there is a 90 percent chance your wife will physically assault you again within a month now that you've agreed to let her stay in the house and you plan to return home in a couple of days.  I hope this doesn't happen, but I agree that the chance is very high that she will even with her knowing you have an Order of Protection against her that you could serve if that happens. 

I only started following your story a few months ago, but after the last assault I went back and read some of your posts from almost two years ago.  The physical abuse dates back to then from what I read.  The verbal abuse has been constant. 

My point is that your wife has never had any real consequences to her behavior.  She still gets to live in your house, contribute virtually nothing to the household, scream at you and call you names, and hit you.  And then blame you for it all. 

Do you believe she is capable, given her extreme BPD, to NOT verbally and physically abuse you? 

 

Max,

Does your wife know that you have this?... .the OOP

FF

I wonder about this too, and also about what going back into the home will look like. For instance, will you have a lock installed on your bedroom door before sleeping there? The fact that you've been hit in the back of the head now is scary, and I wonder if any of the DV professionals would feel it's safe to turn your back on your wife at this time.

Can one of the advocates advise you on this before you return home?

I vote for the lock on the door.

IMHO, I don't think she will physically harm you. She has a fear of abandonment. Hurting you won't stop you from serving her or leaving you, however, one thing, that I already mentioned, can make an OOP impossible.


I am not kidding about this. Lock the door or you might have an interesting dream that isn't a dream.

Notwendy, I respectfully disagree about Mrs. Sterling's potential for assaulting Max. She has crossed that boundary already, many times.

My experience with domestic violence leads me to believe that once uncontrolled rage has worn a neural pathway through expressed physical violence, that it is likely to occur again, and become a faster response to anger and frustration.

I... .unfortunately have the same "professional" experience.  For a while I was a "family advocacy program" officer in the Navy.  Collateral duty to keep up with families of Sailors that were having issues.  DV was prevalent.  It usually got worse.

Not always... .but... ."more often than not".  The times that I remember it getting better... .there was an obvious effort made by both parties to listen to professionals.  I did not know about BPD then.  Looking back... .I don't if any of the cases it was a factor or not.

Critical that both parties be involved in treatment because there is a r/s dynamic that is intertwined in most stories.

Max,

I hope these ideas give you items to think clearly and thoroughly about.  If you go back in the home... .I also vote for the lock... .don't toss it in her face... .but also don't hide it.  DV is a fact of life in your r/s that both parties need to deal with.

Hang tough man!  You have been through the wringer... .keep strong... .and keep talking to you support network!

FF

Cat, I understand, and don't want to negate the possibility of physical abuse.

I speak from observing my parents. It was a cycle. My mother had similar rages where she would break things in the home, scream at my father, and yes, the suicide attempts too. She would push dad to the point where Max is now, considering leaving but once she got the idea he might leave, she would become very remorseful, sweet, nice, and seductive. She would mean this. There is a wonderful sweet side to her, and this is what we loved about her. When "good mommy" was there it was amazing. The remorse is real, and she feels shame over the rages too. However, this didn't negate that they happened.

She also becomes pitiful and waify during these times. She also goes through the cycle with me too, minus the seduction. That doesn't work. But the pitiful side to her is just heartbreaking. It would make us feel like heels to think of leaving her.

Once we are back in the regular rhythm of the relationship, things go along for a while, until again she would blow up and go into rage and anger.

I also observe this cycle on a smaller scale with my H without the physical abuse but with pounding on tables and once a hole in the wall. Then, a period of remorse, followed by calm, then rage.

So Cat, I agree with you, the potential is there - always- for physical harm. However, the abuse cycle is such that afterwards there can be a period of remorse, a promise to be good, and that is where the partner is lulled back into the relationship.

So I was suggesting that if Max's wife had already raged and was feeling remorseful, and also fearing that she had gone too far... .and knowing that she wants a baby, that he could feel a sense of safety and also be vulnerable to seduction. But the cycle goes around and the potential for physical harm is there.  

I was considering that remorse would come before abuse again, but really, anything can happen and Max needs to be protecting himself from all of it. I guess it would be better to have said to consider that physical harm might not be the next step... .  but if it happened, it is most certainly likely to happen at any point.

Notwendy,

I too experienced the remorse/honeymoon cycles and that's what kept me in the relationship for years. I kept believing him that he would never again... ., but my faith was misplaced. Denial is a powerful thing.

That said, I don't hear any evidence that Mrs. Sterling has been remorseful. It seems she briefly apologizes then blames Max.

Physical abuse is a whole other experience than self-harm or suicide threats. It seems there's something very animalistic when boundaries are lowered and a person will attack a loved one. Actually, I don't want to disparage animals because unprovoked violence seems to be more of a human trait.

If your are 90% sure of a reoccurence I think there are three possibilities that may be holding you back

The logistics of having her out of your house. Would you be the same if all you had to do was walk out of hers?

The need to know that you had turned every stone to ensure there was no magic fix hidden under it.

The need for her to action a final straw, so that you feel less responsible for the call.

If you can focus on what is holding you back you may be able to better choose, otherwise it will stay the same until a you are pushed into a knee jerk action

Max, this statement from Waverider got my attention:

The need for her to action a final straw, so that you feel less responsible for the call.

In looking back to some very old posts from about two years ago, a statement jumped out at me.  You wrote (I'm paraphrasing), " I almost wish she would hit me one more time and that could be my justification for ending this relationship." 

I'm not trying to make you feel worse, Max.  I just see a cycle that doesn't seem to end. 

Wow.  Thanks for all the input, everyone. 

I had actually a good day today.  Wife was out of the house, I was home most of the day, and now I am back at my safe house doing something I never get to do at home - drink a bunch of beer.

Wife has mostly been on good behavior in regard to phone and text messages today.  I thought of something - if she actually does reach out to others (friends or legal counsel) and is honest - those people will tell her that her actions have been unlawful and abusive.  And from the looks of things, it seems she hasn't been home much - probably spending a lot of time out at 12-step meetings and such. 

As for my safety going home - yes, locking the door at night is a definite.  At least for a few days I will try to avoid her as much as possible.  She has BPD and lacks executive control - that's why I say another outburst is almost guaranteed.  But I think she will be on good behavior for at least awhile - for the reason I mentioned above.  Deep down she knows she is way in the wrong here, and that I could legally have her removed from the home. 

There's that last thread - not so much the hopes that she will somehow fix herself (I've long since known that I cannot in any way fix her), but the hopes that there is some other exit other than the forceful legal way.  She spet the afternoon looking for jobs.   REAL jobs.  I think that indicates SHE wants more options because she knows deep down she is a walking a fine line here. 

A clarification here:  She *acts* like she fears me right now.  She's said as much, and acted accordingly.  Considering that I am about the least aggressive person most people have ever met (even my wife says I am not aggressive enough), she acts like she fears that I have control. 

The only way this makes sense is if she somehow knows that her actions have crossed the line, and in reality I could put her out on the street. 

Would this be a good time to ask her if she'd like to go in-patient as an alternative?

The other interpretation is that she is setting herself, and you, up so that she can play the Waif and victim. Be very, very careful. She could attempt to maneuver you into a situation in which she flips and counter-claims DV. You are so NOT out of the woods yet.

I fear that the recent actions you've taken (and bravo for these!) put you at greater risk in your home now.

Chiming in with my outlier opinion again . . .

I don't think that Max is going to leave her in any definitive or meaningful way.

In order for Mrs. Sterling to calm down somewhat, she needs that crucial ingredient that has been on her mind ever since she and Max got together:

a pregnancy/baby.

She is in a double bind and will only get worse if she and Max are not trying for a baby soon.

She will not be able to behave herself for long unless they are actively working on this goal, which Max has wanted as well.

I don't wish to discount Max's distress over her recent blow-ups, suicide attempt, and attacks on him.

However, in the context of her typical behavior, these are her responses to the stress of being married and not trying to get pregnant, while the months tick away.

Each cycle could be her last fertile time; there is no way of knowing.

If Max were really in danger from her, the police would have told him to abandon the premises on the spot.

They handle these situations every day and for the most part, they have a good sense of what is going on.

I think that this is the fork in the road, and he will either have to agree to move forward toward parenting with her, or truly break up with her.

I don't see him doing the latter, and this limbo is making her BPD worse.

If Max does opt for parenthood with his wife, she should go off all meds and they should treat her pregnancy as high-risk from the start.

Many women are put on bed-rest at some point in the pregnancy, and that would need to be the prescription for Mrs. Sterling from the outset.

No talk of leaving her; no ultimatums.

No pressure to get a job, cook or clean.

She must do nothing other than sit on the sofa by day and lie in bed at night (with Max stroking her hair), eat well and get very moderate exercise (none of those camping trips that Max loves but which drive her batty).

Everyone is yelling right now--how can anyone be so foolish as to recommend that he impregnate his wife?

Sometimes one must take a risk, even a foolhardy one, to get to the next level in life.

SweetCharlotte,

I see your point in that, if Ms. Sterling is married to Max, and she wants a baby, but he does not, then this in itself puts her in a bind. So long as Max is in limbo with staying or leaving, baby or no baby, she can not really go forward with her wishes if this is what she wants to do.

When one spouse wants children, and the other doesn't think it is wise to have them, or is not interested in having children for one of more reasons, then this can be a marital deal breaker. This is a huge life decision. It seems unfair for one spouse to insist that the other will not have children, however, it is also hugely unfair for the other spouse to be reluctantly forced into parenthood. Then, there is the issue of the child, who has no choice in the matter to be brought into a difficult situation.

I agree with you that limbo is a difficult place to be because neither spouse can move forward, and this can be emotionally stressful. So when a couple is placed into a deal breaker situation, and neither can let go of this ( nor should they if they feel strongly about it) there are choices.

Ms. Sterling can leave the marriage and take steps to have a child with or without a new partner.

Max can decide that he does not want to be a father with Ms. Sterling and dissolve the marriage.

Max can decide that he is willing to father a child with Ms. Sterling.

The couple continues in the emotional limbo, or resolves the issue on way or another- Ms Sterling decides to not have children, or Max decides to agree to try for one.

Yes, there are a lot of complicating factors besides these decisions that have been discussed. I am not dismissing them. I am trying to consider your point of view on this and I can see where this situation can be frustrating for his wife. Although there are strong arguments for her not becoming pregnant, this doesn't necessarily change her feelings about it, and you have a point that she may feel she is in limbo. Wanting a child doesn't mean one is capable of raising one, but telling her that she can not have one must feel invalidating to her. Still, this isn't a reason for Max to agree if he doesn't wish to. However, to become a father is also Max's choice too.

Your point of view is interesting because I think we all see that Max is in a difficult situation and have strong feelings about a mentally ill woman becoming a mother. However, I see where she could be focused on blaming Max for her not becoming a mother and so being angry at him. Professionals can help her process her feelings but I don't think they can tell her not to become a mother. There have been times where some individuals were not allowed to have children, and this is considered a violation of civil rights. It would be difficult to state that Ms. Sterling not get pregnant. I think it is possible to try to understand her point of view, not necessarily agreeing with it.

Max's ambivalence about the r/s is understandable. "Not yet" could be a fine decision, except for the fact that for a woman over 40, "not yet" becomes "not at all" in a short time. On the other hand, Max has the right to not be coerced into fathering a child with a woman who he believes isn't going to be a good mother to the child, and also when he doesn't think he can afford the child.

I don't have an answer to the baby question, but I see your point about how these unresolved issues could be causing stress to Ms. Sterling.

I think when DV is present in a relationship, especially when a SO is diagnosed with BPD, we have to be very careful about how we set out our advice.

Advising a couple to go ahead and take a risk and have a baby when there is both active DV and unstable BPD is misguided. To me risks are best avoided when choosing to stay with someone diagnosed with BPD.

No matter what we believe the triggers might be for Max's wife, ultimately we don't actually know, so suggesting it is about growing frustration over wanting a baby is also misguided. It could just be the pervasiveness and escalation of the disorder.

For me the focus is best served helping max protect himself if he chooses to stay against further episodes of physical violence.

Sweetheart, I agree with you. Max's responsibility is to himself, and to keep himself safe.

I also think there are two sides to every story and with BPD the other side of the story can be very different.

I always saw my father as being a victim of mom's instability. It was only after his death that I could see her side of it.  I was way too angry at my mother to hear her point of view before that. It was amazing to realize how much she felt like a victim in her marriage.

Whether this is real or not, this is how they feel. I don't condone violence at all. It should be dealt with. However, I realized that when my mother was acting out her anger, she truly felt like she was a victim and being wronged by dad when she did, and at the moment, she felt justified.

Denial is thick. The idea that mom has a mental illness is unacceptable. There had to be another reason, and also a magical solution that would fix things. The reasons varied- the kids' behavior, Dad's job, someone she was mad at. It didn't matter as long as that reason was not being accountable for her mental illness. Then the cure was always the next magical thing- this family vacation, moving, a new home, planning a big party- If only this would happen then we would be fine--- as long as this was not admitting and getting treatment for her problems.

Dad went along with this. I don't think he felt he had a choice.

I considered the baby issue to be something Max's wife could focus on that would allow her to not focus on her issues. She could then see herself as a victim of Max's refusal to have a baby. She could save face with her friends this way and take the focus off her. My mother did this countless times with me- blame me for her issues.

The essence of this as that it is a pwBPDs lot that they always seem to act in a way that sabotages the ability to have their desires and needs met. In this example acting this way is the best way to ensure that Max will not want to commit to having a family, even if the desire for having a family is triggering it.

It is the BPD catch 22, and is repeated in many aspects throughout their life. Appeasing the need rarely fixes anything, the behavior moves to something else. Yes having a baby may soothe a pwBPD, but for how long before something else upsets the ability to regulate themselves? The behavior doesn't change only the focal point

WW, I think you are absolutely right. I see this played out in many ways. I don't want to hijack this thread but would think it is a great topic for another one.