BPDFamily.com

Why do you stay?

And how are you doing it successfully and healthily?

I'm trying to weigh out my situation, but need some insight. Thank you!

Because I love care and have hope

Only way to do it is research support and therapy for you

Good luck we are here for you

These are big questions to ask... .I can see that they are very important to you... .

Also very important to me... .

I've been married 20 years... .and have 8 kids with my pwBPD traits. (my wife)

I am a deeply religious person... .I took a vow to be married to my wife... .(in sickness and health... .till death do we part)... .that is my value system... .it's worth it to me to uphold my values... .even if very uncomfortable.

I believe that I am more emotionally healthy than my wife (not saying I don't have issues... .I do) and therefore it falls to me to provide leadership to guide (don't ever think "force" the r/s to a better place.

bpdfamily is part of my support system that is helping me to this.  ( A support system is critical)

How am I doing it (wow... .that is Big Question!)

Brief overview:  Personally for my own "mental health"... .the concept that I shouldn't take things personally... .that aren't about me... .was earth shattering.  I still struggle with it.  I had previously thought that if my wife was raging at me... .about me... .that of course it was personal and I should "fight it"... ."fix it"... ."do something about it... ."

What this looks like now... .

1.

Wife:  "You love that other woman and hate me... ." 

(I examine my heart... .it's not true... .therefore it's not about me)... .so... .I let her keep the issue. 

I may validate an emotion... .or I may choose to not participate in a conversation about this.

2

Validation and invalidation:  I was raised to be complimentary... .we were not a validating family.  Although I don't think it would be accurate to say we were "invalidating".  This area is my current struggle.   I want to be a validater.  Avoiding invalidation came pretty easy... .once I learned to keep my mouth shut... .and not "pick up issues" (leave them with her)

3

Boundaries  Not really something I was familiar with before bpdfamily.  Especially with my wife.  I mean... .we were supposed to share everything... .right?  Sharing worked well for a long time... .(BPD symptoms in my r/s... .bad... .since 2009... .only hints before)... .

Very important to delay implementing boundaries until you understand them... .and can CONSISTENTLY do them.  Inconsistent is worse... .than doing nothing... .or delaying.

There is so much more to say... .but I like to break things down into "top 3 lists" and that kind of thing... .

Can you tell us some about your situation... .and what kind of things are going through your mind right now?

FF

I posted a question re: people staying that don't have kids on the undecided board and the lack of response was overwhelming!

FF,

Everything you wrote steps 1, 2, and 3 (especially 3) I need to work on. I'm waiting for a spot to open up in therapy at the DBT institute (for my h BPD) and for me, but there is a three to four month wait. I guess its a bigger thing than I realized. I am in therapy however, and so is he, I just do not see it working. He is turning all the situations around onto me, I did it first, or it was a reaction to my facial expressions or my non reaction... .etc, etc.

I had to get back on anxiety meds and am seriously battling depression. Again I don't think his therapist understands what I am dealing with day to day.

":)on't talk about that" "I don't want to be part of your sarcasm" "Happy anniversary (sarcastic after screaming at me for being frustrated that he keeps shutting down my conversations) "I don't like your friends because I see who you get the sarcasm from" "I don't like your family because they judge me" "Why are you smiling its not funny!" (I was upset with a photo, not due to the quality of the photo, but how bad I looked from the stress I am dealing with) "Why are you talking to me like a robot?" then continues to mock me in a robotic voice. I said that something we were making was not doing so well due to the humidity and said it was going to be a "fun" summer... ."Stop being so negative, I can't handle it right now" (making a certain product for our business and the humidity strongly effects the outcome of the product)

My sister texted me that she is concerned for my health. Has never seen me look this bad. She said it was obvious something is wrong and that clearly the relationship is not worth it.

Is he a wonderful man, yes, is our business working its way to success, yes, can I do our business/our dream without him, no, it was built for us, but am I falling apart and on the verge of a break YES.

Something needs to change and I am just losing all hope. Actually it's pretty much non-existent at this point.

Your frustration... .despair... .lack of hope is obvious... .you are totally justified to feel that way.

How would you describe your prevailing emotion... .  Most days I feel... .?

I'm going to consider your post... .and look for your reply to the above ... .

I'll try to get back with a response later today... .

   We are here for you!

FF

Hanging,

I ask myself this question a LOT. 

I think I'm staying out of hope that things will get better.  Hope without a plan is just delusion, though.  I have a plan -- things I learned here -- things like what Formflier mentions -- and I'm implementing it.  Slowly, very slowly, as my skills improve, things are getting better. 

My problem is this, and it's a BIG problem:  I don't know if it's enough.  Things were so bad the first two years, and I went through all my reserves, and I'm just having a hard time building them back up.  I find myself dwelling on a lot of things, horrible things, he said in the past; and now when he does or says things that would have not bothered me so much when he was doing truly horrible things... .well, these smaller things seem to affect me just as much as the bigger ones did in the past.  I can't seem to get over what happened in the past, and I hate the feeling (and I don't thing this will ever go away) of waiting for the next bad thing to happen.

This is where mindfulness and trying to stay in the moment comes in.  That is a big challenge for me, because it's hard to be present in the now when I know that if I do certain things (based on what reaction I've gotten in the past) there is going to be a problem.

*Sigh*  I don't know.  I think, to answer your question in brief, here's my answer:

1.  I stay because I have a plan, and things are improving with this plan being implemented.  Slow, baby steps, but moving in the right direction.

2.  I stay because the good times still outweigh the bad. 

Earthgirl

I stay for financial security.  I don't like admitting that, but it's true.  We have been married almost 33 years, and I don't want to start over at my age--54. 

I have finally learned (still learning) not to look for my husband for my happiness or for any validation of what I'm feeling, for approval or praise, or for affection.

He is very responsible and reliable and works hard. He takes care of many things that I am either not good at, have no experience at, or just would prefer not to do.  So I let him do those things, thank him for it, and don't expect anything else from him. 

I do my thing and he does his.  I share less and less with him because there is no point.  He either ignores me or has almost nothing to say.  We basically live like roommates.  It's not ideal by any means, but letting go of trying to "fix it" has been freeing in some ways. 

When he is angry or moody (which is most of the time), I do not ask anymore what is wrong or try to change it.  He chooses to be a miserable person and I choose not to.  I avoid him whenever possible. 

I don't have kids with him and I don't rely on him financially in any way.

We're a commuter marriage--six hours away by car, so we only see each other one weekend per month and on holidays/ vacations.

I must be staying for the pure fun of it.

I tried to divorce him a few times but couldn't go through with it.

He is faithful to me, doesn't abuse me physically, and doesn't do drugs or anything else that is illegal.

Our love life is good when we are together, when he isn't painting me black.

He makes me feel needed because most of the time my kids and I manage to alleviate some of his misery.

So, he gives me something to look forward to and yet I don't have to deal with him every day and night.

Hanging,

This is not going to help... .but may ring true for you and let you know you are not alone.

After contemplating this topic for an hour I decided to add.

I hear in some of the responses a lot of "hope".

I think for me it is "Fear"  (Sad but true)

Fear of leaving my daughters without an Emotionally and Financially stable, responsible, adult in their day to day lives.

Fear of starting over.

Fear of what will happen to my wife (I do love her dearly) emotionally and financially if I leave.

Fear of trying to sustain a new relationship with someone else. (I am no longer the same man I was in my 20's now in my 50's. I beilieve negotiating a Relationship with my uBPDw over the last 26 years has irreversibly changed me as a person. I used to be Confident, Outgoing, Personable, Caring,... .Not depressed)

Fear of being alone.

But mostly... .  Fear of this ever happening to me again... .  Sort of developed a mistrust of woman in general.    

Call it:  "The devil you know... .".

I've only been "Intrigued" by, "Attracted" to 2 other woman since I've been with my wife.  Both turned out to be raving BPD sufferers.  Go figure. Severely gun shy now.

Life isn't bad now... .sort of made it thru the 26 mile train tunnel and even tho it's raining on the other side at least it's light out and I'm not tripping on the railroad ties every 4' in the dark.

FF:

Most days I feel defeated

Even before the defeat, I know its on its way. 

Like Earthgirl stated
Something as simple as a normal conversation, turns into a debate, then ridicule, then an explosion. This type of cycling happens weekly to bi-monthly. Normal one or two days, loving typically one day, irriation, rage/episode, shame and self pity the next, sorrowful, clingy desperation... .then the pattern continues.  It is one week to two week time periods.  I'm lucky if this only occurs once a month, but as of late, this is not the case.

Why do I stay?

1. Wedding vows.

2. Kids. I think it is best for my kids if we stay together. Yes, there are difficult times and they see us fighting from time to time. They also see us having fun and being silly together. They also see both of us working together to improve things.

3. Finances. There is no way that I could realistically leave and be able to give my kids the same lifestyle/quality of life that they have now.

4. Fear. Afraid of being a single mom. Both of my sisters are single moms and I have seen their struggles. I could do it if I had no choice. I have a choice so I am going to stick with the one that makes my life easier.

5. Reality. The reality is that things can be difficult between me and my husband. Relationships take work. I am not going to throw out 17 years worth of marriage because he is difficult to live with and has issues. I am difficult to live with too. I also have issues. The reality is that if I want a happy ending, I can do that with or without my husband. I have to find it within myself rather than relying on another person. My husband doesn't physically abuse me and has been working really hard to change some of his behaviors.

I agree with vortex on some of these reasons.

1. Kids- I have seen how bad she can get at stressful times. If we divorced, I don't think it would get much more stressful. She had a panic attack once after I got tired of be raged at and turned off my phone. I was at work at the time. She will take out her anger and rage at the kids verbally when I'm not there to buffer it.

2. Wedding vow- simple as it sounds. I said I do and I refuse to give up. As stupid as it may be some days.

3. Fear- been with her for 20 years. I know I'm a caretaker. I'm working on the boundaries and hopefully before too long I can scratch this one off the list. Or at least change it to say "I stay because I choose to stay".

Verbena,

I love your honesty 

I've only been married for 5 years, no kids. In asking myself why I stay, because he is like yours, does the things I'm not good at, works hard on those things. I couldn't do my business without his strengths that support my weaknesses and vice versa.

My honest truth now days would be, I stay for my business I've worked my a$$ off for. I stay because I know he loves me so deeply and the intimate times are AMAZING.

But why I question it, because I am dropping into depression and my soul and my health are suffering. Because I can't have a intimate or a normal conversation with my husband. Because I need to be able to be me without correction, ridicule or defense.

Sweet Charlotte,

I dream about a situation like yours.

Whenever things get challenging I think to myself, if only this were more like a long distance relationship, I could do it! Or, if I can just take off for a week to myself, we can make it. The day in and day out and heightened control over my life is too much, way too much.

Ooohm,

I like it. I believe we all must have fear in why we stay.

I fear leaving and him harming himself.

I fear my business dissolving, which we built together

I fear not having a partner as compatible in bed, yes its a fear

I fear, like you, I must be attracted to BPDs or what I used to call an "artistic personality" (even if they aren't artists)

I fear finding worse if I leave

I fear being alone

I fear having to start all over

I fear I will never heal from this

I am staying for now as my pwBPD is accepting diagnosis and doing everything humanly possible to improve their coping mechanisms so we have a healthier relationship. I am also trying to learn, but the best thing I have learnt so far is to be myself.

My husband with uBPD really is my BFF.   I know that if I left him it would confirm his worst fears about himself, and I could never do that to him. I knew this before I started dating him, so I feel a responsibility to prevent hurting him in that way.


This has been happening to me on a daily basis this past week, and it is driving me crazy.


Does this mean that you close up/stop sharing with your partner, premptively? I tend towards doing this to protect myself, and it leads to depression in my case.

I try to avoid the trapping of thinking I am more emotionally together than my H. The book, Passionate Marriage uses a term "differentiation" which roughly describes not being enmeshed, emotional maturity. It states that we marry someone who is at the same level of "differentiation" as we are, and also that each partner believes that he/she is more "differentiated" (emotionally healthy) than their spouse.

I stayed because the good in the r/s outweighed the bad and I was aware that I had a part in the dynamics of my r/s and one can not "leave" our own selves. I would just take my stuff into another r/s after destroying a potentially good one. Our MT first asserted that I was safe from physical harm in the r/s. This was important to me because I was so afraid of anger that I could not assert my boundaries. Growing up, making mother angry was terrifying, and so were my H's anger outbursts at me. Consequently, I appeased him rather than assert boundaries. I had to learn to stand up for myself, even if he got angry. However, if there was a chance of harm, I would not be able to risk his anger so it was important to me to establish this.

The MT and I agreed on the benefit of growing emotionally in this r/s rather than escaping from it and I think we both understood that the issues were something that required emotional growth on my part. It was somewhat upsetting to me that she focused on me, but I was motivated to do the work. I think it has been effective, not because of some miraculous changes in other people, but because of the way I have grown to handle issues. However, I think every relationship is different and we need to decide the many factors for ourselves. I see my mother as being more affected than my H, who I think has just enough traits to match the co-dependency and adaptive behavior ( to being raised with mom with BPD)  I grew up with- and now I have to work at learning new ways to be in a relationship.

So many truths to contemplate in everyone's posts.

How can we every REALLY be happy (or even a legitimate couple) if we cant discuss our thoughts, feelings?

If we are not truly being ourselves because doing so would cause anger or some other unpleasant emotion or experience... .then we are not in the relationship. Its our "unengaging-submissive alternate personality" IDK about anyone else, but I don't remember having that side of me until my BPD.

Why do I love a woman that I would consider a complete ^$$#0le if she were a man?

The totally ironic part of it is I was initially attracted to her because she had an opinion. We had great, stimulating, long in depth conversations about everything... .Its a blur as to how all that ended.

I suppose Im only still in love with the amazing woman I never see anymore.

BPD SUCKS!

IDK, Just thinking out loud

Hi Hang,

Most of the reactions above resound to me, Formflier makes some very recognizable comments, Other reasons, practical, romantic, ethic all play part for me too, to a more or lesser extend, but they make me want to clear my mind for my own, and maybe, to your benefit. Let's give it a try;

1. There is love, love conquers all. Love is stupid, non logical, and oh so good. I hope to celebrate our love as much and as long as possible.

2. I find myself with my partner, I mean, I really feel understood, loved for what I am, and respected in the good times at least, a basis I can hold on to.

3. I understand her troubles, with her condition, and how much it influences her functioning, I have great admiration for the trails she had to, and did, endure, to get where she is now.

4. I am not the easiest person neither, I have my flaws and particularities, and I find some understanding from her side, for  behavior and thoughts that are outside of the 'common' within other relationships I always had to fight for the right to be as I am.

5. Now I feel some resentment against the idea of 'staying'. That sounds like it says 'you should leave' or 'that it is a good deed to stay' I don't 'stay' with her. I am with her, which is my choice, and, if I make up the balance, I have no regrets what so ever. That feeling, is probably what makes me 'stay' too.

6. (Dealing with) her condition made her one of the strongest, and most interesting people I know. 'Normal' women fade in her presence, although I might be a bit biased, as I love her.

I can think of more, but I think I have covered the most important. Good luck over there, I hope you find an attitude towards your relationship that fits your needs.

Starts off as default survival mode. Disbelief that it can't be turned around after the next issue is overcome. Delusion if you like, linked by a lack of belief in your own choices.

As I started to learn about this disorder and slowly turning things around, I found I was improving me and that was validating. The high conflict virtually evaporated, and I established a high sense of me, and time for me. A self confidence and space I never experienced before with anyone. This was my "reward" if you like., and it was mine, not something I was given or allowed. I went through a lot of trauma to get where I am now.

If I was the person in the beginning that I am now I would not have stayed. I am content with what I have now but would not pay that price for it again.

Starts off as default survival mode. Disbelief that it can't be turned around after the next issue is overcome. Delusion if you like, linked by a lack of belief in your own choices.

As I started to learn about this disorder and slowly turning things around, I found I was improving me and that was validating. The high conflict virtually evaporated, and I established a high sense of me, and time for me. A self confidence and space I never experienced before with anyone. This was my "reward" if you like., and it was mine, not something I was given or allowed. I went through a lot of trauma to get where I am now.

If I was the person in the beginning that I am now I would not have stayed. I am content with what I have now but would not pay that price for it again.


Love this WW, and feel the same. However, saying if I knew then what I know now, isn't possible. I had to learn what I learned to get here. The "default survivor mode" is a great way to describe what I learned to survive with my parents growing up, but falling back on this in my marriage made me also think that this was the only choice. However, we have choices, stay, leave, grow through either choice, or stay in the same pattern. One incentive to work on growing emotionally was the belief that I could not assess the situation fairly without working on my end- and also the realization was that there was much emotional growth needed on my end regardless of the r/s.

Very interesting way to put it.  

Lately... .I've been thinking about life... .not as the destination... .but as the journey... .the road you are on.

There have been times in my life when I thought I was going round and round... .I paid a price to exit that circle and move along.  That wasn't fun... .but I'm glad I had that growth... .I'm glad I went on that journey.

But... .if you asked me if I wanted to drive on that road again... .nope.  Not a chance.  I am going to drive on the road ahead of me... .I don't exactly know where that road leads... .but I know who I am... .and who I'm not.  Nobody else will define that or my feelings and values... .

I'm going to enjoy my journey... .have my special space... .

FF

Links,

What you have said


is why I am posting this question. Why I am feeling torn.

And to answer you question as to the "unengaging-submissive alternate personality" I was not like this prior.

I was always engaged, doing my best. Yes I deal with anxiety issues here and there, but was free from it and medication for 6 years prior to BPD relationship and during our year separation was also free from it and meds.

Any move I make can become a rage against me. And if he snaps at me, it then becomes me being at fault for shutting down, as if I shut down before he snapped. I then wake up to him complaining about how horrible I make him feel and how this marriage is on the edge of ending... .

This can start from a conversation about dual incomes and the difference from women working now to our parents generation where typically there was only one income   This conversation started a spiral of emotion which led to "this is going to end in divorce"   All because my girlfriend who I had this conversation with initially - my h BPD doesn't like. 

It all depends on where you are in the spectrum of recovering (or whatever the appropriate term is) from untreated... .unrestrained BPD traits... .along with a partner that doesn't know any better.

So... .this answer and how many feelings and thoughts that we can share depends on progress of two people... .(the pwBPD traits... .and the non)

I want to give everyone in this thread hope that things can and will get better through the consistent application of tools on bpdfamily.  Add in some good therapy... .and things get even better.

I have conversations with my wife about feelings that are deeper and more meaningful than anything in the past several years.  Is it what I remember from 10 years ago... .nope.  But I think we will get back to that... .that is my goal.  But I can't force that to happen... .just like my wife can't force me to do anything either.

Last thought... .you can discuss your feelings and thoughts... .you need to do it in a smart way.  Also need to respect that if you are at the "stop the bleeding stage" that discussing feelings and thoughts is pretty far down on this list.

Accept where you are.

Accept what is the next step towards a healthier r/s.  

Take that step... .let time and consistency work their magic.

FF

Hello Sun,

No. I don't close up permanently.  But when he rages, throws tantrums or has episodes I shut down. I won't engage him when he seems particularly argumentative or opposing. When that occurs I can sense he wants to or is on the verge of a explosion.  When he is spiraling I often repeat over and over, "I don't want to continue this conversation. You are escalating and I don't want to continue talking."  

But I have noticed I engage with him less and less as these outbursts occur and the more frequent they have become because I really can't tell anymore what is going to ruffle his feathers. And yes, its depressing as heck. The control over me and even just my ideas, opinions, thoughts, what I talk about has gotten ridiculous, and this mistrust and always looking over my shoulder is driving me nuts.

He was my best friend, my business partner, my half. I've been hanging onto that, but as of recent... .I don't know.

Repeating this is generally not good.  Say it once... .enforce it. 

Even better to make it simpler... ."I can't continue the conversation right now.  I'll check back in with you in 10 minutes"

Leave any talk of the other person out of it.

FF

FF,

What do I do when I say I don't want to continue this conversation right now and he keeps badgering me and yelling, spiraling etc?

Also, most times I cannot walk away because we work together and most times the stuff we work with has a time frame or it will ruin, for example boiling sugar. It won't stop when you stop it's going to become caramel if I walk away and burn. Where we work we also pay for our hours used like an art studio per se.

How do I manage that kind of situation?

I know when I'm at home I can leave and I've done that a few times, not too much if it's not a big deal but mostly when the dysregulation starts or major cursing and attacks on my character occur.

Thank you for all the advice and insight it's clearly learned and practiced! I'm waiting for an opening at the DBT institute. (3-4 month wait list)  

I find situations where I am not able to leave to be potentially inflammatory. Long drives and staying together in hotel rooms are such situations, to the point where I avoid travelling with him unless there is no other option. During these times I try not to engage in potentially difficult conversations, and basically not stir the pot. This is in a way WOE, or appeasement, but especially if the kids are along, I try to keep it peaceful for the short term.

I don't know what I would do in the work situation like you do. One thing that has benefited us in T is an agreement not to talk about things at night. These inevitably go bad. Is there some way the two of you can have an agreement not to mix personal things with work? For many people, these two are separate anyway. It would be best t discuss this not in the emotion of the moment, and in a positive sense, as well as a scheduled time to talk so he wouldn't feel put off.

Then when he starts, say something like " I love you honey but this is work. I would be happy to talk at 4 pm like we agreed to"

Notwendy,

That's good advice! I know In therapy his therapist has said things like how about no one corrects one another unless asked. (This was because I am always corrected, told how to behave, what to say what not to say, told I'm wrong, told how to do things I've actually been trained on) my h BPD hasn't really put that into practice, but I see where the therapist is going with the homework. Before it was also he needed to wait 48 hours to respond to something that upset him. Again not really put into practice for my h BPD, he does wait a few hours sometimes and that's been heaven!

However at work, it seems like any topic can set him off. Something as simple of discussing how funny it is with people who are fanatics of canon and Nikons... .Turns into my being wrong then spiraling into how he's a terrible person and sucks at life. And at the end of the conversation I'm like wha? Just happened.  

I'm starting to just listen to music and avoid conversation altogether in the workplace. It's just the other night I had low batteries on my phone. I praise Jesus when there are other individuals signed up for studio time because when other people are present its soo much better! And I get to talk and Share thoughts and ideas with people with no fighting!

It's impossible to know what will set them off. It can be anything. If I were to say I like something that would be twisted into saying I don't like him. Sometimes I think if I said the sky is blue, he would proceed to convince me that it is green.

Patricia Evans wrote a book called "controlling people" in addition to her verbal abuse books. She mentions that for some people, a discussion is an invitation to a collaboration, for others a challenge to verbally spar. I am the former, my H is the latter. I can't know when my comment becomes an invitation to spar.

For me what works is that once he gets going, I stop talking. I may say something like uh hh, mmmm, that's interesting, and sometimes not much at all, but listen, and do not engage.

Criticism? It usually is more about them than me. I use the pink elephant analogy. If someone calls me a pink elephant, I don't have to argue or defend that. I am quite certain that I am not a pink elephant. I can't help it if someone else thinks I am. Visualizing pink elephants ( and I am quite sober!) helps me cope with accusations. I don't respond to or defend something, as that makes the argument valid in a way. I don't need to convince anyone that I am not a pink elephant. A valid complaint can be discussed later.

Hanging

I’ve come and left this task of responding to this thread six times. It really is a challenging task to search your soul (and want to do that in some cases) to come to the initial definition of “Why do you stay.” I’ll give it a shot because I dislike shying away from a personal challenge and find it better to explore them than to ignore them.

Why do you stay? I’ll have to rephrase that to Why did I stay?

I look at your interpretations of your present situation and can see how heavily and desperately they affect you and they are challenging for the situation you’re in. I look back at the days seven years into my relationship when our lives we’re in Dante’ hell. Apart from the years of dysfunctional disconnectedness, falling into a coworker prolonged affairs that ended badly resulting in her also losing her job do her responses to being pushed out when he was done with her. Police threats for retaliations – her totally going psychotic for a really prolonged state and finally being initially arrested warn and released only to reoffend big time again and finally be cuffed arrested, jailed and charged. Going through all this difficult period I wasn’t aware was happening until they came in our living room and arrested her the first time resulting now in my awareness of everything – well it doesn’t get to more difficult or fall to much lower than that.

I couldn’t leave her at that time although the entire professional world, my family and her family all told me to pack and run. Her entire family deserted her to the jail terms and what would come after for bail or sureties. They disconnected their phones and locked their doors. After all the years of problems they did they finally thought she’d made it only to do all that. They surrendered for good especially because they all had good relationships with me. She was left totally on her own with not one person in the world to support her.

She was so advanced in a state of sheer incomprehensible insanity that she could not have been released or cope on her own without even doing worse. She wasn’t able to see the repercussions of her own actions. She was still heel-bent though to attack everyone including me now because I knew with her rage.

I could no sooner have left a friend to cope in that state – could I actually leave my own wife to cope in that state? Not out of pity – just out of human decency.  I just could not find it in my heart to leave her in that state. Even though I was totally broken and destroyed myself.

No situation is ever as straight forward as we think and as I slowly learned the situations involved I didn’t have it my heart to just ‘discard’ her. Even though you have the full validation and actual insistence from the entire world that you should. Can you truly discard a person because they have the challenge of a mental illness? Does it make these people disposable like the unwanted trash at the end of the driveway on Tuesday mornings? Can you just bag them up and thrown them out because they suffer from a mental illness and really don’t even know they do? That was neither in my heart or the ability to do.

I pulled myself up off the floor and gained the resolve to decide and bring myself to a determination to give it another shot, my best shot, and if I couldn’t find success or hope in that – I would at least know for myself I had done the very best I could.

Ah! Now; “Why do I stay, three years later and how are you doing it successfully and healthily? “

Because that same determination and resolve led me to become obsessive about learning about the disorder. In learning I found the opportunities to be able to change our relationship around. That’s said really quickly, but it’s been an ongoing process for the past three years of constant improvement. For the past two years we really have live good lives together and it just keep improving small steps at a time. To drag yourself out of Dante’s  Inferno together and create love and harmony is a real powerful accomplishment for both of us.

You look for that same hope and opportunity that I was determined to find, create and manage through learning and the patience to put into everyday practice well.


I read your posts here and I see so many of those hopes and situations already established today in your relationship. So far more than many of us have had in our pasts and present situations. You still have love, you still see good qualities in him, you still have so much want in some aspects and needs in the others.

I’m a real believer that you can’t move forward without both doing the real substantial reading to learn not just the lessons and do them well but absolutely everything about the disorder, reasons for it, effects of it and apply them to your own husband and situation to fully understand the conflicts and negative aspects you live in. That’s a tall order to manage.

I found it needs to be managed because the next most important thing to do with that information and equally necessary is to use information to formulate a plan moving forward. A plan to make things better knowing now what you didn’t know then.

So much of coping is finding ways to regulate our own mentally derived assessment of our situations into something more understandable and motivating to us.

It’s so evident that “needs” still remain in your thinking about staying in the relationship with your spouse. Perceiving need, particularly when they are insurmountable and so overbearing brings such a relationship of negativity to a situation. You’re behind the rock before you start and it’s difficult to see around it, find a way under it or around it.

Really big question is, can you define those perceived needs; and then in some way turn those same desperate ‘needs’ into your ‘wants’ in your mind and relate them to your life.

Personally ‘Wanting’ to tackle situations is so much more empowering than feeling trapped in a situation that lets that situation by its own inertia strip you of your will and opportunities by NEEDING to meet them.

Turning needs to wants really redefines who leads in the dance together and offers new steps to lead on that dance floor with.

Where this goes wrong is

You: the sky is blue

Him: No its green

You: Of course its blue

Thats when it gets into argument. Don't fall into the habit of not saying your truth, that restriction will build resentment. Rather just don't try to convince him of it. Let him believe its green and dont be baited into arguing it. say your truth once then drop it. Otherwise he perceives you as attacking his view of the world, and his belief that the sky is green becomes entrenched

If he first states

Him: The sky is green

You: Is it?

Him: Of course it is

You; Ok

I'm new here, and this thread resonated with me because I've often asked myself the same question.

I would no longer leave someone who is missing a limb than someone who is missing an element of his personality. He isn't physically abusing me.

I keep my word/vows.

I am the breadwinner. If I did leave, I would walk away from a home too large for me to care for on my own, and still have to pay spousal support. If I'm going to financially support him, I will be in the home to do so, and support him in his health condition as well.

I see a 50-something year old man who is struggling not just with BPD but mid-life career change, coming to terms with his own mortality, etc. Can't be easy for him.

Sometimes I decide to stay b/c I'm too tired to pack.

It varies, day by day.

WW, you are right. More and more I let these discussions be.

I agree that it is important to speak my truth and not hold it back. It's a work in progress though.

Wave rider!

I like that example and advice. I will try to practice that in our regular day to day conversations!

However I question how this comes off to the outside world. For instance my family sees and feels he's always correcting me even though we all know hey the sky is blue. And my hBPD in front of everyone will snap at me and give me a look of "oh my silly wife" the sky is green. my family knows what's going on so its like eh, okay whatever. I just don't respond. They notice that as well.

But my question is - which always makes it more complicated, in a work environment where certain skills I'm far more advance in  than my husband I have to teach to our employees and even him at times. And I have to say that's over done, mix less, you forgot a step... .And he says "what? Ugh! Fine just do it yourself. Or no you didn't show me that, are you leaving out steps? Are you not showing me fully how to do this?" "Or whatever, just fix it you don't need to show me."

How do I respond to those situations when I need to show him. I need to correct him. How do I teach someone with BPD? And also if I just ignore the green sky comment how do I teach my employees. That would be very confusing to them! And it also comes off as she doesn't know what she's talking about or who do we listen to? Her or him? In general when you have two owners it's complicated enough or two managers with opposing ideas, but then you add a BPD into the mix and it's like Wtheck! What do I do here? Without looking like a push over, dumb or wrong, or complacent, or disrespectful to his green sky as I keep teaching our employees the sky is blue?

Stalwart,

This is very good and well thought out! I am glad you responded! I really enjoying reading how others are problem solving and how their minds are piecing this tough situation together to fit their lives. Every situation is different, but it's all for the main goal of making it work and making it as healthy as possible for both individuals.

I do read your experience and admire your perseverance, love and commitment! I read your testimony and think wow!  I know if my BPD's level was higher - he being very low on the scale - I would crumble so easily. Mine deals with rage and outbursts, emotional abuse at times, suicidal threats which are when I question my marriage. But thank God for no police involvement, no abuse, no substance abuse other than cigarettes, no cheating or massive spending sprees. So on a positive note that's why I guess I have a shimmer of hope. That's why I'm hanging on.

My question is, it sounds like your pwBPD knows they have BPD. Mine is at the stage were he finally accepted counseling (clearly for me) for the main purpose of keeping me in the marriage.  But my question is how to both be moving toward the same goal if he still believes and he's stated this so many times "nothing is wrong," he's just being "dramatic or over-exaggerating."

This is were Hope diminishes and I ask myself if I should be staying. It also isn't really helping that during therapy I only meet with his therapist every third session, in which he has turned all the situations to she did it first, she escalates first, she is overly sensitive - or the worst one is when he goes to therapy three times and I come in the next week and my hBPD says the last three weeks have been great and I go in and say I've been struggling in hell with massive anxiety issues, lack of sleep and depression due to him raging at me about ----. Again I become the main issue.

How do i live in this part of the BPD world? .

It will take some trial and error.  But... .there are some principles to respect.

pwBPD are "emotional"... .so if their emotions are addressed... .they won't be able to "hear" what you want to say... .or teach.

That is why SE comes first and the T.

I'm thinking validate a bit... .see if you can get the "temp" down.

Then (my best guess) is to try to SET... .with the T being what you want to teach.

If you aren't sensing that you are dealing with the emotions... .then realize you don't have a "teachable moment"... .and leave the teaching for another day... .

FF

Hanging Its why pwBPD find it difficult to stay in employment at times (and therapy), they dont respond well to being instructed, or corrected

As FF says bucket loads of SET, and where possible seperate areas of responsibility so you crossover authority as little as possible.

Then again when you have said what you need to say, making sure it was important enough to be said, then drop it.  Also try not to contradict them if possible in front of others.

I stay because our children and I aren’t physically threatened.

I stay because this is where our children live, and I don’t want to disrupt their lives. 

I stay because I know how ugly things could get for all of us if I were to initiate a divorce, and I honestly think that doing the best I can to keep the peace is the right thing to do. 

Our relationship isn’t great, but my life is better now than it was before I came here.  The BPD characteristics are very annoying and exasperating at times, but at least BPD isn’t the boss of my life anymore.   And that’s why I’m able to stay.

Great. My relationship and work relationship just got more complex than it already is.

It's going to be difficult to have that when in a moments instant I have to say no! Wait don't pour that yet! And somehow validate, gage the emotion all in seconds or the product becomes ruined! Our business is very based off skill, which needs to be practiced and is time sensitive.

I've had instructors smack my hand and say no, too soon." - it's not personal it's just literally you have seconds and have to say STOP! And it seems like that alone to him becomes offensive, that he's not perfect. I mean I don't know what he's thinking but it's just very hard.

In the past I have said, "wow you do that better than me," or in business emails I have said "your professional emails are great." And as I am proof reading and making small adjustments he's hovering over me and starts getting upset when I push delete. He then starts making fun of me and putting me down.

In therapy he has actually yelled "... .And then it's like DELETE, DELETE, DELETE" and I ask, "why is that so upsetting to you? I'm not sabotaging your writing I'm just correcting subtle grammatical errors, like when I do math I hand it over to you to correct and double check me. I value your ability why can't you value my educational background and abilities?"

(His English is something called pigeon English... .It's a Hawaiian form of speaking or mixed Pacific Islander style I guess. Anyway his writing is amazing, he deals with situations very methodically, very professionally, but his English is just a little incorrect ie: mine(s) somewhere(s) deer(s), to/too, their/there, i think instead of it is, extra words just, that, repeated sentences, etc.

I don't know, sorry for the ramble I just really don't understand not So much the email situations but the actual work part how I can apply SET and validation within literal seconds. It just seems when it comes to any criticism or correction or opinions or ideas opposing to his - it becomes a disaster regardless of how hard I try validating, tone of voice, compliment sandwich.

I also just went to lunch with my cousin who I haven't dined out with in months and brought my h bod home pizza and he immediately says, "you always go to the good places without me." I rarely have time to socialize because of work. I haven't gone out to eat without my husband in also months. We do close to everything together, also I live at work. But this is just always his frame of mind, I'm always doing something against him be it negatively or if I am happy or having fun it's always viewed as because I was without him. "I NEVER smile I'm ALWAYS serious." I'm stuck in all black.

I'm on the edge. So it's very hard for me to see the light at the end of this.

Hey Hanging:

Glad you got back.

“This is where Hope diminishes:

Honestly hanging, this is where your hope should begin, for his part in going forward anyway. Not that it really helps, but in relation to other’s struggles here there are so many here that just so envy your husband’s own beginning of personal awareness and willingness to take that step”

The quality of therapist and awareness and experience in dealing with BPD is everything to that success. I really hope his/yours is good. I hear so many here a bit upset that their spouses therapists or psychologists term their partners with “BPD –like symptom or don’t come right out forward telling them they have BPD. Really good reasons for that though and the way it really has to be for a therapist to interact well with their patient and keep them engaged in a positive way.

In some cases it would be satisfying for us as supporters after being through so much personally to have that validation of slam-dunking our spouses with the harsh realities about themselves but honestly, for a therapist to be affective they have to avoid slighting their patients so the ‘shields stay down.’ The minute they go up we all know what starts to boil and brew and it doesn’t help the therapist accomplish the goal of exposing them to the mindfulness parts of the DBT program because they’ve already insulted their reality as being “wrong.” Secondly for us to slam them with the harsh realities of their illness is just the wrong thing to do (although it might feel vindicating.) It’s about moving forward in a better way, not stagnating in same things we’re caught up in that inhibit that.

“But my question is how to both be moving toward the same goal”


You are moving forward in a different direction than I would have. I did start prior to my wife’s diagnosis when she was still really dysregulated after everything she did and see a marriage counselor together with her. It lasted one session and I the counselor said that it wasn’t good for both of us to be together. I was OK but my wife was nowhere near where she needed to be.


I accompanied my wife when she went for testing, because she asked me to. I just sat outside and waited. When she went back to meet with the psychologist for her diagnosis she asked me to go in with her. Immediately I could tell she was uncomfortable and unable to communicate because I was there. I asked her if that was the case and she said yes so I apologized to the psychologist, patted my wife on the leg in support and bowed out. The psychologist looked at me with an affirming smile as to say – right on man – right thing to do – good for you you’re engaged her for her and not yourself. He later told me that.


You see it’s my wife’s job to take therapy and to work on herself with a professional to personally move forward. I don’t interfere with that. That’s her world and her challenge and honestly I don’t tread on that hallowed ground because I don’t know enough to do the right thing and could actually screw it up. I’m not a professional – her mentor is. So I entirely leave her to do that – that’s her part in moving forward.


My part, that’s about me and only me. It’s about having learned so much about the disorder and how it affects her combined with just how much I’ve changed to meet those needs in a way that supports her. In doing that I’ve gained back trust over time. It’s learning to stay and dance in that world with her that has brought us so far ahead. I haven’t had to step on her toes while we learn to dance and live with the challenges that brings during the process.


It all takes time hanging, a lot of learning and relating to be able to understand and develop your own part in the dance that’s good for you and good for him.


The real question is, is he in a DBT-based therapy or just talking to a therapist? Two totally different things. If he is in DBT-based therapy then the conflicts between the two of your both in sessions, and at home, are harming his progress and bringing more pain to you. I truly believe their therapy has to be – their job. In that way they are free from the effects of the your relationship and situation haunting and affecting his ability to relate.


In that way “you are not the main issue any longer in his therapy – he is and his situation is. Believe me if his therapist is aware and top of BPD, he already know the negative effects it has on you and just who your husband really is. They know exactly how to untwist the tales into something congruent and real to the situation. Honestly it isn’t about you defending yourself against a twisted view. It’s about his therapist learning your husband’s twisted few and helping him with mindfulness techniques to mold himself in better ways of interacting with you and his life.


If you feel apart from that, you need therapy for yourself – that would be a great thing - because then it also becomes about just focusing on yourself ;land your needs in that.


Please understand Hanging, these are only suggestions to think about.


This is long so I’m going to come back with a second thought on “if he still believes and he's stated this so many times "nothing is wrong,"

I stay, even though he decided we're not a couple any more. (What happenend was that he couldn't move out and we sort of slipped back to be pretty much a couple. Right now we are starting to discuss "what now" but it is difficult.)

On some days it's clear why i'm staying at his side, on others it's moer like "i should just end this and move on".

It's not like i'm undecided, but idk... .Some moments and situations are overwhelming and after a difficult situation or a moment i'm at my wits end and feeling the need to protect myself from more. Times of depression, when he is not really able to do much... .Like nothing for weeks or months... .Those are tricky. He holds so much negativity towards himself that me complaining about him not doing anything (liek housework) makes him worse.

But as to why i stay. I love him, yes. He loves me back in a varyingly. Sometimes i'm more like a very close friend, sometimes like a partner. It changes and i've accepted that. He has a bunch of diagnoses, is among others dissociative (as in MPD) so it's pretty complicated. There is a bit different sides of his persona (alters) "in command" and that changes a lot in how we interact etc. It also means there is a lot he doesn't remember, his memory is badly flawled - it makes things complecated, but not impossible.


I have endured or forgiven him a lot as he tries very hard to overcome the abundance of diccitulties inner turmoil. I know where he comes from, the living hell he has somehow managed to get away alive and thus i understand many of the problems. His highly aware of his problems and usually takes responsibility of his actions.

A part of staying at his side is also fear of him dysregulating badly and harming himself/killing himself if I call it off totally.

A part of it is that i am happy with him. Well no, not when things are difficult, but when things are fine. I enjoy his smile, his touch, they way we connect, I love our sex, our cuddles and our intimacy. It is a bit difficult as the level of intimacy changes pretty much daily, but i've learnt to live with that, too.

He has told me several times "you must regret getting to know me, and especially being with me". I have told him that no, I don't regret, but admit there has been some draining moments. Right now i'm mostly grumpy at him for concentrating on his project (motorbike) for months and all the chores at the house have been left for me. yeah i know, building the bike is good therapy for him, etc. but it still bugs me :D.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm some weird martyr, trying to get me a shining crown for being with him, or other reward.

I even did several checklists, here and elsewhere on the internet, to make sure i am not an enabler or too badly co-dependent.

Hey Hanging:

“if he still believes and he's stated this so many times "nothing is wrong,"

Here we are with this idea that THEY don’t know there is something wrong with them. You know it’s been my finding and a huge discovery to find that statement is generally so far from their truths.

When I could finally gain my wife’s trust and she would confide in me about her past (and I never touch on our present in conversations when she opens up) I was horrified at her thinking, the depth of it, the consuming intensity of it on her present perception and the loathing she has of herself and her past. Really powerful stuff to know that I never did.

I spend far more time in BPD sites than I do in the support site for someone who lives with an effected person. It’s invaluable learning if you can manage to build online communications with some of those people and I have. Even just reading all their posts without entering into the blogging is so valuable because they typically only post after an event and vent with their realities of usually conflict situations in their lives.

My wife is an extremely high-function person. She used to say there is nothing wrong with her (it’s the rest of the world.)

I can tell you this certainty. I have never been exposed to some with BPD that does not “know they are and have always been DIFFERENT than everyone else in their lives and past experiences. Everyone recognizes the have always felt removed, isolated, estranged and misunderstood by everyone they’ve brought into their lives.

Most have lived really difficult lives trying to deal with friends, family and especially significant others. They know they have and inside they know it’s because they are not the same as other people. Each one of them admits this. Most of them live in real desperate self-loathing and actual hatred of themselves because of that recognition.

It’s my belief that those same feeling of self-loathing for their own actions in past events is so desperate and strong to them that they ‘have’ to put up the shield to deflect it from themselves when dealing with others. It’s also my feelings and findings that so many live with the ‘negatives’ of their past always present in the fears while they try to deal with the singular of what is happening TODAY and every day of their lives.

We all hide things about ourselves and from time to time they come to our present thinking. We don’t expose them, we bury them back on the shelf to collect dust for a while. We are able to do that and not have them affect our present thinking and situations – and particularly our own feelings of remorse for what they may be.

Does anyone’s partners here not have a past since their teens that they both live with every day in their thoughts and repeat in the same behaviors’ today, trying to deal with the present challenges AGAIN in their lives?

The majority of them know Hanging but knowing and admitting are two whole different beasts in their minds.

I wish just for one minute all of us could transport  ourselves into their almost constant emotional states and just feel how absolutely consuming and intense their emotional states are. Each day of their lives they wake in this same world of being consumed by their fears, paranoia and past trying to deal with their presents. Each morning it set their stages for that day. It really is for most all-consuming – all enveloping in a way and intensity of turmoil that most of us could not even consider living in for more than just that one moment of experience.

Oh, they know Hanging and their pasts, culpability and self-loathing as a result is what throw us all into confusion trying to deal with their irregularities because we can’t comprehend the intensity of their emotional states being so absolutely off the scale compared to ours.

They hide it well and deflect it better as a coping mechanism but they KNOW. There real problem dealing with situations is they DO KNOW and have to deal with that every minute while dealing with the present coming at them – scared of their decisions and actions they may make again, but just CAN’T STOP making them EVEN WHEN THEY CAN SEE IT’S DETERIORATING.

That is their main driving force and why they try constantly in some cases to soothe themselves and their own self-loathing in really bad ways.

Don’t think he doesn’t know Hanging – he knows it only too well but he can’t control it because it’s so consuming to him and his constant being. Relate to yourself and how desperate some of your experiences have been with him – you know what the pains are. Now intensify that in a totally consuming reality that have you HAVE to live with absolutely every minute in your self-recognition and there is no escape. Imagine your day trying to deal with what comes at you.

We think they can’t cope because we look at it through our realities, honestly, for better or worse they are super human-copers. They have to be to survive themselves. There is something just so heart-felt and sad when you come to that recognition and look across at him because there may come a day in learning where you see that in his eyes. It’s not what he wants, it’s all he knows.

That’s why DBT is designed to bring better mindfulness to allow him to think differently about that and about new situations that arise in his struggles against that; to cope better with people and situations. To take it from “all he know” to knowing new tools going forward.

Sorry hanging I know these are long and I apologize for that.

I stay because I love my husband. He's my best friend. We have a lot of fun together, he's really smart and interesting to talk to. We share values and our view of the world.

We are a family. Me, my husband, my children and my brother. It might not be perfect, but it's perfect for us. We are an odd collection of people who are trying our best to understand and be helpful to one another. (My brother is paranoid schizophrenic, H is BPD, son is Asperger's, I have anxiety issues, my daughter is a teen so that's bad enough lol)

My husband is a self aware pwBPD, so our life together is a bit different than what other people are facing. We talk about our issues, we work on them together. There is no relationship where work doesn't have to be put into it. As long as he's trying... .I'm trying.

Of course, there are things I will not tolerate. If there was physical abuse, infidelity, or any abuse towards my children we would be having a different conversation.

@Stalwart


This is absolutely true. When my H and his son first got back into contact with each other last year (estranged son, wasn't raised or around my H after the age of 3), one of the first things he talked about was he always knew he was different... .that he saw the world differently than those around him. When I and his wife talked about his anger issues, behaviors, etc... .carbon copy of my H. Even their likes and dislikes are similar. It's uncanny.

I love this post.

I’ve got a grin on from side to side and it really does my heart good to read this. It is so absolutely true.

“There is no relationship where work doesn't have to be put into it”

That is just so right on and I so respect your opinions, your experience and what you’ve done and how you’ve managed to make a life you value so much out of so many challenges. Speaks to such an exceptional person ColdEthyl.

“…my daughter is a teen so that's bad enough lol)”


Yup, been there done that with two daughters. All in all, for every new challenge that brought, every darn minute was worth it. There were certainly a lot of moments, dramas, perceived catastrophes and just kid’s growing pains,  but I look back at them retrospectively and there was just nothing more rewarding to have done and come through. Good luck with that.

Great post.

Haha thanks :) My D15 is honestly one of the best kids ever. She isn't mouthy, she doesn't give me a hard time about anything. I have to ride her to do her homework and that's the worst of it. I am a very lucky parent that my kiddos are so awesome. They are just cool people.

The light may be somewhere different that you think.

For years I had a very successful side business in real estate... .for a while my wife was very helpful with that business.

Then... .I don't think it was intentional... .it became consumed with the BPD issues... .and issues with her FOO... .generational BPD traits... .high functioning.

Well... .sometimes the light is a choice about what matters. 

I could continue to have a successful side business... .and get divorced... .and do it myself.  Or... .I could give my best shot at making my r/s and family work... .

By myself... .or with my wife (as she is now)... .I didn't have the energy to make it work... .just not going to happen.

I still have the skills... .if our r/s ever gets to the point where we can try it again... .I might try it... .I am a never say never guy.

However... .sometimes you can't have it all... .

It took me a while to figure this out... .but it is something to consider.

FF

Stalwart,

It's just a therapist. He isn't DBT specific. It wa very hard just getting him into therapy. The DBT institute has called him. Where he is with that I have yet to know. He agreed a month ago to be evaluated.

I am also in therapy. I've been in therapy regularly since we first started dating (5 years) can't believe it's been that long. But in the beginning I really thought everything was my fault and I was a problem in our relationship. It want until we moved and I got a different therapist who deals w bod (being married to one herself) who diagnosed him as that. He won't take that as proof, which is fine and said he was open to an evaluation.

Thank you for all your encouragement and words of advice! I like it and it all rings true on so many levels! I definitely don't think his therapist understands, I believe he is trying to use traditional marriage counseling on a very not typical couple.

Thank you again for taking the time to write out your thoughts and responses! 

Thank you so much everyone! These posts and shared experiences really have helped. It's good to know I am not alone and it helps me wrap my mind around a situation that is difficult to do not physically knowing many in such a situation.

I have a lot to mediate on and consider, but that's why I am here; to seek out, learn and evaluate myself and my situation.

Thank you all for sharing! This has been the most informational and helpful post.

 

Hanging:

This thread will probably end soon so I want to get this in where it's relevant.

It's been a really meaningful thread to read through and it really challenged me to step up to the answers.

The therapist is everything to the start of recovery. My wife went to therapists since was in her late teens long before she met me and while she was with me prior to her diagnosis. She was always assumed to her diagnosis by therapists that had no idea and in part because at that time she wouldn't always tell them the full truths. She used them for her own validation and she's high-functioning enough to have done that well.

I can honestly say that going to bad therapy that didn't focus on her real illness did her far more harm throughout her life than help.

It took real specialist to address her in the proper ways and what a difference. There hasn't even been a threat of her being turfed out on her butt and believe me - that's happened before. She loves her therapist and therapy process now. It's now about her - in the way it needs to be. BPD done right is really effective - it's developed specifically for this illness by someone who has it.

With thorough knowledge of BPD staying can become an educated choice with positive goals. An environment were thriving is a real possibility

Without thorough knowledge of BPD staying just seems to perpetuate the agony without any achievable goals. An environment which is more about just surviving.

This is the purpose of this Board to help your transition from survive to thrive