BPDFamily.com

I had an intake appointment today for social services.  Seems pretty clear cut that I am showing symptoms of experiencing trauma.  I qualify for a men's group therapy for domestic violence.  I either start tonight, or next Monday, depending on how things go.

Tonight is the night we sleep in the same house again, in different rooms.  W has been applying for jobs today.  Might be good to go to group to stay out of the house, since W will be at home.   

 

 

Hang in there... .!

FF

Did you end up attending the meeting? I hope your night back home went okay. You've sure been through a lot lately. I'm glad you are looking out for yourself. Hang in there.

good luck bud in the same boat

No.  I didn't go to group for a few reasons - 1) wanted to face the issue head on.  Can't keep running.  2) wanted to make sure I was set up in the other room with plenty of time.

We mostly avoided each other.   She gave me some speech about how the only reason she is looking for a job is because she doesn't feel secure with me.  Good Lord!  I helped her with a little paperwork, and she went to an AA meeting, and then actually bought me an ice cream and brought home. 

Your wife lives in your house, doesn't lift a finger to the home's upkeep, draws her government checks while you have actually have a job, goes from one appointment after another thanks to the insurance your job provides, verbally and physically abuses you--and SHE doesn't feel secure because of YOU? 

Max, she is setting you up for something. 

Well, that's the reality.  She's in the "I'm the victim mode" right now.  As for what she can legally do - not much except make false claims and file for divorce.  I just need to make sure my side of the road is clean.  She seemed a little warmer to me yesterday until I actually got home, then it was weirdness and full-on black.  Part of me wonders if she is upset right now because she wants me to extend a full olive branch and forgive and forget, but I am not doing that, and that frustrates her. 

And back to bizarre world today... .

Her sending me a string of text messages blaming me for calling myself a victim of domestic abuse... . Telling me that I am in the wrong for labeling her an abuser, and that she is a good person with anger and rage issues.

I am not calling myself a victim.  I actually entirely agree with her statement that she is basically a good person with anger and rage issues.  But in the eyes of the law, and the crisis center, I am a victim of domestic abuse - that's the label society gives, not me.

Anyway, I've mostly just ignored her text messages.  

I think she is mad that I qualify for grant-funded trauma healing services and group therapy - the same as her.  I feel it is an attempt to minimize my experiences.

Max, my daughter (almost 30) is BPD.  She is nowhere near as extreme as your wife, but we've had some very bad times in the past. 

In my experience, after a bad episode there was a lull followed by a concerted effort to re-write history and shift blame.  My daughter is much better, but she still has a VERY hard time accepting the reality of her behavior. 

This is textbook BPD, as I know you know, and will mostly likely ramp up until she breaks you, until you agree with her, thus allowing her to not feel at fault.  Two years ago after a big mess with my daughter, that is what happened to me.  I stood my ground and would not allow her to bully me into her way of thinking.  She finally gave up but it took months, and it got very ugly before it all ended.  Now we're in a good place but it was excruciating going through it. 

Be prepared for your wife to try to badger you into taking all the blame off her shoulders.  And like you said earlier, keep your side of the road clean because she might stop at nothing to destroy you. 

Thanks, Verbena, as you know this is a very difficult situation, and yes, very textbook BPD.  I'm thinking her behavior the past few days has a very deep root in shame and past events. 

Let's put it this way, people (not just those with BPD) get most upset when others imply or state something about them that they feel deep inside is true.  I am sure previous partners have called my wife abusive or a bad person.  And I actually think she knows enough about emotional abuse and PTSD and the law to know she has fault here.  And thus, the blame shift. 

And that's the reality - based upon legal definitions - she *is* responsible for domestic abuse upon me.  And I don't think she could find any therapist, lawyer, friend, or resource that would say otherwise.   And really - she's damn lucky.  Had our genders been reversed, the police would likely have arrested her.  Instead, they walked me out to my car, told me "she's crazy" and that I should just divorce her. 

you are a victim  dont let her gaslight you, she has to be responsible.   

Well, by definition, yes.  Not sure if I like identifying myself that way, though because it feels helpless and hopeless.  But when I go ask for help, it seems like those that work in the social services industry are extremely concerned for my situation.  Maybe I am in complete denial, but dispite the vitriol right now, I don't feel immediate danger.

Gaslighting, for sure.  She's playing the "victim" card big time today  and trying to go way off topic with any and all communication.  At some point I am going to need her to own up to her half up it, which is pretty severe - basically that hitting is physical abuse and is wrong and inexcusable.   I'm not sure how much more patient I will be here, though.  MC tomorrow night, and I know I still have the OOP I can serve.  I just need to hear her say she has a willingness to work on the violence issue.

youre in a tricky situation, you need to protect  yourself and set boundaries and acceptable behavior in MC    if she breaks this use the authorities,

you  would if the sexes were reversed

Careful, Max. As you know, pwBPD can say anything and make promises they don't keep. Watch her behavior and that means verbal as well as texting.

max, I can't get past the knowledge that you've been attacked suddenly. You've been hit in the back of the head.

You are in extreme danger. Especially if you are alone with your wife. Especially if you expect her to "own up to" her battering.

In the kitchen, there are knives. In the bathroom or bedroom, there are scissors. In the garage, there is a hammer. There's likely a weapon in every room of your home.

I really wish you had a different plan than being at home alone with your wife.

Exactly.  I feel like I am living on an alien planet right now.  The way she is acting right now just seems so counterintuitive to me.  I don't think she is willing to concede *anything* right now - including the very basic idea that hitting someone else is wrong.  I mean, if someone was hitting her, threatening violence against her, or threatening his/her own life, I would hope she would call police... . right?

I'll have to agree with KateCat. Max, it's not a question of "if" but rather a question of "when." As someone who has experienced domestic violence, I know how easy it is to  think "it won't happen again." Or, "I'll see the signs of it starting now that I know it's possible."

This is a very dangerous situation for you, as all the professionals who are experienced in this area have warned you.

This is very troubling to hear. My ex-husband always briefly had some guilt and remorse over hitting me. That she has none and claims that it's your fault is very scary.

IMHO Verbena is spot on.

My mother rewrites history when she has behaved badly. Sometimes to the point where what she did actually didn't happen for her- it was erased from her memory as she dissociated from it.

And the gaslighting too. We had to pretend it didn't happen. Only once I became an adult, I refused to pretend.

I have to agree that your wife's lack of remorse is very troubling.  Even if she was acting remorseful another assault at some point is still very likely, but the way she is acting now makes me think she will attack you you sooner rather than later.  

If you're waiting for her to admit what she's done, feel bad, and agree to get help, you may be waiting a long time.  Most importantly, any attempt by you to get her to admit that she is an abusive person and capable of violence is going to send her spiraling downward.  With that will come violence.  

YOu're sitting on a timebomb, Max.  There is no way this is a safe situation.  

I guess these are more stern warnings... .

Thanks. 

I still have a hard time thinking she is that dangerous.   But then again, she is that unpredictable and that out of control and therefore, that dangerous (logically).

She was in the mood to exchange angry emails earlier today.  I refused to return the anger (refused to participate).  Now she has been quiet a few hours. 

 

Max,

One of the reasons I think charges help these situations is that she can spend her time blaming the judge... .the jury... .etc etc... .let them label her... .not you.

She will most likely still blame you... .but you would have company.

Great job ignoring the emails... .I had the hardest time learning to do that... .it was hooked in with me learning to not take things seriously.

Last thought... .there is no requirement for you to have the same history as your wife... .

Although... .I believe that is a requirement to  believe that she is getting better ... .getting away from DV.

I don't see any long term solution that does not include acceptance and remorse or her part for assaulting you... .no ifs ands... .buts... .she did it... .it was wrong.

FF

Immediate is the key word there. You do know her very well, so perhaps your assessment of the risk is reasonably accurate, although I'm going to say that part of being a victim of abuse is to minimize the abuse.

You need to be safe not just today but next month. So even if you do believe you are safe today, that isn't quite what you are looking for!


Please don't go there max. That's a dangerous way to talk.

You need to accept that she isn't owning up to physically abusing you and assaulting you. That is who she is, right now, today. That is your reality. Accept it as it is, and choose what actions you can take to deal with your reality.

When you say you "need" her to do or say something, that is dangerous... .because you have no control, and no ability to make it happen. Don't make your safety depend on something like that.

They don't own up to things for several reasons:

1)It makes them feel bad and bad feelings can't be felt so they project them out- raging... .blaming.

2) If they are real bad, they dissasociate from them. Block them to the point that the memory is gone, and also rewrite history over them, and then gaslight others. Family members go along with this to keep the peace- because an attempt to get them to be accountable can result in #1

3) Attempting to get them to be accountable can trigger an intense shame bomb in them which is very painful. They perceive this as coming from you. You did this to them! They snap into victim mode. Then you are on the triangle. People can play more than one role at a time. Once in victim mode, you are the persecutor. To deal with the bad feelings they believe you are bringing upon you- they attack you- verbally or more.

Expecting this to be different is probably like expecting someone with two broken legs to jump up and walk. Maybe this can be done some with a skilled therapist in the safety of their office, but possibly not. A therapist may know not to got there and do something else more effective. At home, alone, the two of you, is not likely to be a safe place to do this.

Even if she does "own up to her half of it," it doesn't mean it won't happen again.

My experience was that apologies and remorse had no predictive value about future behavior. It's that neural pathway groove that becomes a well-worn response to internal distress. The more they engage in violent acting out, the more likely it's going to be the chosen response.

The words "own up to her half of it" concern me.  They imply that you are 50 percent responsible for her physically attacking you.  You are not.  She is 100 percent responsible for it. 

This is something I find interesting.  Your wife said she didn't remember the incident from a few weeks ago.  You left the destruction she created in the house and she saw it when she got out of the hospital and asked who did it.  She claimed not to remember tearing the house apart or physically attacking you, but she did express remorse.  This time, however, she isn't denying that she attacked you.  She seems to remember it.  Yet, she is expressing no remorse.

I don't know what any of that means, but it seems significant.   

I think she is in a place emotionally that is so scary for her she can not process this at all.

The closest I can come to something like this is when my father died. My mother did not show any grief. Not one tear . It was shocking. We were all sobbing and I cried for months- still do sometime.

My mom also was a bear around the funeral, dysragulating and raging at everyone and every thing. Then she got really rigid about things, called up relatives and painted me black. For a long time I tried to hold her accountable for this and she completely denied it. How do I know she did it? She had called up my H  and his family too.

It was only later that she could tell me she misses my dad. I was surprised because for all appearances it looked as if she didn't give a hoot. She did, but I think her grief was so much that she was dysregulated the whole time and not even in touch with any feelings. Remorse might be a reflection of how dysregulated their feelings are- this is just my guess at this.

Which is one reason I think people can be abusive. When they are, they are in an altered state of anger, rage, dissociation. Then when they are themselves again, they disconnect from the "person" who did that even if at some level, they know that person is them too.

Max, your wife may be feeling shame and fear, to the point where she isn't processing it. I don't know if this can mean anything about your safety or not.

Me too.

She did the "blow up my phone/email" thing yesterday early afternoon.  I refused to participate, and did not reciprocate her anger.  Eventually, I ignored her, and did not hear from her for a few hours.

On the way home, I stopped at the store to get a little produce.  I asked if she needed anything, mainly to gage her mood before coming home.  She said she wanted a sweet treat.  Then she said she had made dinner and it was on the stove.  That's the first time she has made dinner for herself in a year.  Literally.  She then said she had lost some computer devices, and looked everywhere for them.  I assume when she realized they were missing was when she blew up my phone.  I spent a long time looking, came up empty, and then she fell asleep on the sofa watching tv.   Suspiciously, the air mattress I was sleeping on had a leak.  So we both wound up sleeping in the same bed.  She was in no way hostile last night. 

In the backwards world of BPD, I think a large part of her dysregulation is an abandonment trigger from me staying out of the house and out of the bedroom for awhile.  In other words - reaction to boundary enforcement. 

Part of my safety plan is this:

1) always make sure my phone is on and charged and on my person, if possible.  Never let her get between me and my phone.

2) make sure her car is never parked behind mine, and in the "get away" position.  I'm considering hiding a spare key for the car somewhere in the yard, just in case.

3) My safety comes first in every situation.  If my safety requires me to be untruthful - so be it.  My safety is much, much more important than the continuance of this marriage. 

Get a real mattress

There could be mysterious leaks in you condoms too.

notwendy is so right. It was just a week ago that you had to call the police on her.  You obtained an OOP and seriously considered serving her with it and removing her from your house.  Then you decided to let her stay but sleep in different rooms with your bedroom door locked.  Now you're back to sleeping in the same bed. 

All your safety plans regarding your phone and the position of the cars will be for nothing if she decides to rage on you in the middle of the night, which you've said she has done before. 

And if she gets pregnant, your nightmare hasn't even begun yet. 

You cabs also choose to sleep with your wife and resume the physical side of your marriage.

But I thought the sleeping arrangement was an agreed on boundary. Boundaries can be tested. This is where it is hard to enforce them. You probably miss sleeping with her too. But when you break a boundary it makes your boundaries weaker. It's like telling a kid they can't have a cookie and then letting them have one. This could make it harder to enforce your boundaries.

Your other choice was to uphold the sleeping arrangement and sleep at a friends.

I'm not trying to pick at you here. This is you and your wife. But if you wish to sleep with her, don't make this a boundary.

Or I could have slept on the sofa, or spread a pad on the floor in the adjacent room.  I didn't think of this as a boundary thing, at the time.  I thought of it actually as a safety thing - given the mood of the moment I actually saw *less* of a chance of dysregulating and verbally or physically attacking me if I was in the same room as her.  Something about me being willing to sleep on the floor in the other room just to be away from her I felt would trigger an outburst.   

If you look at it from her perspective, now everything is back to "normal."

You are choosing your response by calculating what is less likely to lead to her dysregulating.

Sum total of what all of this teaches her is that she can repeatedly physically assault you and you carry on as though nothing happened.

I know it's a ridiculously difficult position for you to be in. It seems like you are waiting for the next assault in order to serve the OOP.

You would like her to express remorse for her behavior and she hasn't.

What do you imagine is going to change?

Nothing.  Right now for me is to take things day-to day and hour by hour, and focus on my own safety and mental health.  I've long since learned that my behavior or boundaries have little to do with her behavior or could serve as any incentive for her to change.  It never has.  Not with me, not with previous partners, not with previous friends... .  So me sleeping in the same bed with her really tells her nothing about it being okay to hit me, or that things are back to normal.  I don't think she is capable of learning in this manner right now.  She's already learned that screaming at me and making threats of death leads to me calling police, yet she still does this behavior. 

At most, this past incident taught her that being reliant upon me is not a good life path for her.  Good.  She's back to thinking about working again.  I think this is healthy for her own healing - not the working, but the idea that she owns her own destiny. 

You made a choice that worked for you in the moment. From how I see it, most of our decisions in these relationships have short term payoffs and long term ones. The short term ones are doing the same thing we have always done because it works in the moment. The long term ones take hard work and endurance, for if we enforce a boundary, we are likely to be facing their resistance, a rage, extinction burst or some really terrible behavior. However, since a long term payoff is doing something different, not the same thing, it is likely to result in change in some way, at least in us.

The problem is us. They are going to do what they do and we don't have a lot of control over that, but we can choose what we do. Can we hold on to ourselves in the face of their rage? That's a tough thing to do. Sometimes we just can't and that is OK too. If we choose to try it, it is work in progress, sometimes we can do it ,sometimes not, but with practice holding on to ourselves ( and support from a counselor,group, sponsor) we can get better at it.

You made a choice to manage a potential dysregulation in her. Yes, it kept you safe but it also was something you did to manage her- and her behavior is her responsibility. If you had made the choice to not do this, then what could have happened? Well she might have raged and possibly been of harm to you or herself. Then what? You could call 911 again. She might have gotten help, or faced the consequences of her behavior.

I sometimes take the short term payoff too. Sometimes I will give in to something just to avoid a rage. I choose this because I know I am just not up to dealing with it. But each time I do this, I also know I am selling out on what I really want which is change, not the same thing. Being able to hold on to myself in the face of raging is very hard for me, but with practice I have gotten better at it.

If I bring something to your attention Max, it is because I do it in support and with respect that you are in charge of the course of your choices.

We have all been in your shoes one way or another- facing a choice that we either try to keep things peaceful at the moment, or another choice and face a rage. Sometimes it is a work in progress. You are beginning to stand up for yourself. We aren't going to do it perfectly all the time. But I commend you for the steps you are taking to take care of yourself whatever you decide about your r/s.

Warning bells are going off here, max. Just like Notwendy said... .

Here's my take:

1. You were afraid of dysregulation if you stuck to your boundary.

2. You thought that the situation was safe based on her mood at the time.

I don't know how much you were motivated by the fear, and how much by the judgement. I do know that it makes a huge difference for you, which you were doing.

I know that when I let fear of her actions be the primary figure in my decisions, it wasn't good for me.

Please accept that she will continue to dysregulate, probably with full blown suicide attempts, hospitalization, and assaulting you again.

You cannot cause this. You cannot prevent this. Your actions may be involved in triggering it, but when she's building up steam... .she's gonna blow, no matter what you do.

When you realize that you have almost no power over whether this happens or not... .you stop letting the fear of it control you... .and your life improves.

It is for you to say how much the fear influenced your decision, not me... .and figure out how you will cope with it in the future.

Hang in there, and keep putting YOUR safety first.

After MC yesterday, an al-anon meeting, and hanging out with my sponsor a bit, I came home, and insisted on sleeping in the other room on the floor.  Actually, it was quite comfortable :)

My conclusions?  I'm now wishing I had served that OOP last Saturday.  And before that, I am wishing I had pressed charges for assault the night of her suicide attempt.  I decided I have been enabling her behavior, and need to have a firm boundary of "no illegal activity in my house".

MC session mostly went bad.  With her list of demands and making this all about her.  So basically, I see my choices as 1) walk on eggshells trying to meet all her demands, and continue to be abuses 2) end the r/s.  I don't see any middle ground here anymore.  One of her demands was that she never see my friends (the ones that I stayed with a few days) again.  Sorry, not going to happen.  Another demand was that neither of us ever use birth control again.  Sorry, not going to happen.  And if I tired to enforce a boundary "no illegal activity in my house or I call police", that's the end of the r/s too.

So for the next few days, at least, I am going to lay low and put my safety first.  W has 3 job interviews today.  Then I decide whether to get the paperwork for divorce in order, or just serve the OOP.  I think I will wait until at least after group therapy on Monday to decide.  W seem upset that I am going to that, too, and I can't wait for that to be one of her demands, that I not go to group therapy.

Just don't see too many options here. 

So your W has firmly stated that she intends to:

1)  Control access to your friends.

2)  Control your use of birth control.

3)  Control your ability to protect yourself against violence in your house.

She is very clear on HER boundaries, and they are incompatible with your boundaries.

And today is Thursday, and you want to wait until Monday evening to make a decision on what to do next.

That gives your W over 4 full days to dysregulate over any of the above issues, or over stress related to finding a job.

What is your assessment of her ability to make it to Monday evening without a rage episode?

Max,

Can you clarify this?

Did you tell her about your boundary and she said no... .or did she say that she would not tolerate such a boundary if you tried to enforce it?

Wow... .hang in there.


My impression is you are having good though processes... .you are evaluating the past... .figuring out things you could do better... .and working that into your future plans.

To me... .this seems good... .this seems "right track".

Please clarify what I asked about... .then I may have some more thoughts...

FF

I'm just speechless that she could make those demands after everything that has happened.   She is really testing you to see how far she can push you now.  

Anything could happen before Monday.  A physical assault is a certainty in my opinion.  

Please be careful.

 

Why are you waiting max, what purpose does it serve ?

Max, I would like to see you address these expectations clearly, as if you were speaking to your wife. In the moment of a dysregulation, one can lose clarity while dealing with the drama. I think these episodes cause us to question our own feelings since it is hard to focus on us, while we are focused on them.

You may wish to also keep a copy for yourself, to read so you can hold on to yourself. You don't need to respond to your wife about these requests. In fact, it may be wiser not to. By doing this, you are talking to yourself. Telling yourself what you wish to do. Holding your boundaries is something you do for you. This is in a way, a message to yourself about what those boundaries are.


So your W has firmly stated that she intends to:

1)  Control access to your friends.


2)  Control your use of birth control.

This is a most revealing request. Well you know darn well that she plans to have sex with you if this is on her mind and she's not going to use birth control and she's going to probably have a fit if you even try to use a condom, rip it off, put holes in it.

What do you plan to do about this?

3)  Control your ability to protect yourself against violence in your house.


A clearly written response to this can help you get clarity. Why write it here? Because there are a lot of wise and objective readers here who can be your editors and advisers with your responses.

Remember... .there is a "childlike" or teenager like quality to many BPD traits... like they didn't grown into adulthood.

Teenagers push boundaries... .and... in reality... they are happier... .more secure when parents push back (IMO)... .enforce rules.

I see a similar dynamic here... .even if she doesn't consciously think think this way... .the has found a boundary... and is seeing if it is real... .

Here is the question... .thing to be prepared for... .

Is this the height of the extinction burst... .or... .is this somewhere in the middle.

FF

Good things to think about.

Why wait till Monday?

Again, I see no future in this r/s in the status/quo.  But monday?  Let's see:

1) I feel fairly safe right now.  I think she has plans for all of Saturday, and I have plans for all of tonight.  

2)  My #1 goal right now is taking care of myself in the RIGHT NOW.  I've got some work stress right now that I need to focus on, so the least energy I can devote to the r/s issues, the better.

3)  Monday is my first group therapy.  Somehow I am feeling going to that will help me heal and regroup and find my center.  Again, I think my health depends on me focusing on me right now, not on the r/s or the end of the r/s.

I don't see another assault or major dysregulation coming in the next few days.  

As for my boundary - in hindsight I could have stood up for myself more in MC yesterday when she said that if I called the police on her again she was filing for divorce.  I instead thought this was one of these boundaries that is best not stated.  I could have responded, "That's fine.  If you assault me again, I will be happy to sign the paperwork."

IMHO, I don't think it is necessary to talk about your boundaries with her. I think that whatever you say will go into her dysredulated thinking as something else.

Boundaries are really only enforced through actions, not words, discussions, arguments. She doesn't need to hear that you will call 911 if she dysregulates, but if this is your boundary, then you need to act on it if she does.

There is no need to discuss or debate birth control if you are not sleeping with her. If there is a boundary about that- and you sleep in your own room with the door locked, then birth control is not an issue.

The only need for birth control is if the two of you are having sex. You decide your part in that- and you will need to protect your boundary about that, because it is pretty clear that she won't respect that boundary.

Or the other ones... .

This part is about you, not her.

You have all the ingredients for a perfect storm, Max, and you are directly in its path.  Just my opinion, but you are less safe now than ever. 

Wendy, regarding your point 1-3 above, here is my feeling:

I will continue to hang out with these friends.  I may even invite them to our house.  Up to her how she wants to participate.

Regarding sex, I am allowed to say NO.  

Regarding violence - I simply call police and have the protection order served.

My feeling is that I have control over these issues.  

Max,

I hope you take many of our comments in the spirit of trying to protect you from further violence or emotional suffering. I wish someone had said some of these things to me when I was with my first husband; it would have saved me from years of anguish.

I recently saw my best friend from college and she confessed that she really disliked my first husband (before we were married). I asked her why she didn't say anything and she replied, "It wouldn't have made any difference."

I told her, "Yes it would have. He glommed onto me and I really wasn't that into him, but I thought it was fate and I just went along with it."

If someone whose opinion I valued had taken me aside and told me what they really thought of him, I would have been much more likely to have ended it sooner. As it was, I did end it fairly early and he moved out of state, but then he moved back and convinced me to return with him.

Had I had someone else's overview of him, there would have been no way that I ever would have re-entered that mess. There was someone, a rather obnoxious guy that knew him and made a derogatory comment about him that was spot-on. But because he didn't have much credibility with me, I didn't take it as seriously as I would have if it had come from a friend. But I do remember exactly what he said many years later and he was absolutely right.

So please, given that your wife has been violent to you repeatedly, consider staying with your friends this weekend. Undoubtedly she knows something is up, so please watch your back.

It may or may not make a difference, but I think we say what we say because we believe it to be true. If I was to say " yes, you are out of danger" it would be a lie because I don't believe it.  However, I still have to respect that Max will decide according to what he believes.

One thing living with people with BPD was that I had to really do things that made me uncomfortable. I see where Max is erring on the side of kindness. I also am uncomfortable enforcing boundaries strongly. I didn't feel I had to do it, and if we are dealing with someone who also has good boundaries and respects boundaries, we don't need to.

However, with people like my mother, and sometimes my H, who do not have good regard for interpersonal boundaries, I had to develop stronger ones because they test every boundary and they would run over my "niceness". Also to be "nice" to my mother - in her terms- was to enable her. That, in the long run, is not in her best interest.

Control is a hard thing to achieve in the face of their rages. For some people, we can say "no" and they will say OK, but not with someone with BPD. When my friend is over, we don't have to hide items like letters because she doesn't snoop and read them. However, my mother will go around the house looking for personal things like letters or bank statements and read them. We can say don't do this but it doesn't work. She either rages and denies it, and she keeps doing it. We learned that- a) she does not come over  or b) we lock our personal items up. We can not have the same boundaries with mom that we have with a friend we trust.


So back to Max's statements:

I will continue to hang out with these friends.  I may even invite them to our house.  Up to her how she wants to participate.

Are you prepared for the possible rage and scene she will cause when you invite them over?

Regarding sex, I am allowed to say NO.  

No to what? To sleeping in the same room? No to sleeping in the same bed? No when you wake up with her naked on top of you? When do you say no exactly? I get that you are allowed to say no, but when can you say no and also deal with the consequences- raging, and more.

This is a fuzzy boundary. We all know that two people in the same bed are more likely to have sex than when they sleep in different rooms.  You know that at a certain point of togetherness things go in that direction. It isn't our place to tell you where to draw the line, but I don't see a firm boundary here.

Regarding violence - I simply call police and have the protection order served.

If you mean this, then do it, because I think there is likely to be a next time.




Is your suitcase packed by the door?

You have a good plan in theory, but what are your plans for what she could do in response to you standing by your boundaries?

I know you have a lot going on and need to take care of yourself, but knowing your boundaries well is going to help you take care of yourself.

I think you did the right thing... .adding things to this would have been an argument.

She is trying threats... and is frustrated they don't work... .

Don't do the same... just take action... .much more effective... and gets the point across...

FF

  |iiii good job on the boundaries you are sticking to. And also on recognizing that you only need to act to enforce them; no need to notify her about them (again) or debate them with her.

BTW, if she made those demands, no seeing friends, no BC, etc in MC and the MC didn't object to anything... .I would say that your MC is 99.95% useless!   


Max, you were asked "why wait" and I was wondering the same. I read your answers.

#3 about focusing on yourself and your healing, not the r/s or ending it seems like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

It doesn't do much good to heal a cut when you are still there with the person holding the knife about to give you a new cut any minute.

You need to feel safe before you can heal from what this relationship has done to you. Your feeling that a full dysregulation or assault isn't likely tomorrow because she has plans to be out most of the day is NOT the same thing as being safe.

Your optimistic postings here sound kinda like "I don't expect the other shoe to drop for a few days".

Hang in there, man!

Yeah... .I'm wondering about this too. 

Can you describe how the MC tries to "rein her in"?  Or does he... (or she... can't remember)

That would have been a great time for a "help me understand why I shouldn't... .xyz"... .

Might... .might... have gotten somewhere deeper... .but I doubt it.

FF

 proClaiming in here also about that MC... .wow.

If the MC heard those 3 conditions and didn't call your wife on being out of line, what good is he/she?

Just an idea, but one reason the MC may not have said much was to let her talk so as to see the whole picture. Saying anything to her may have resulted in her shutting down or raging. However, treading lightly on her may have created a sense of safety for her to actually speak up and reveal more of her agenda.

Therapists are aware that pwBPD can lie in therapy and they have been fooled by them. One concern I have along with her not calling the wife out on these demands was the MC discussing trying for a baby. This would make me think that she has been won over by the wife's side of the story and is not really advocating for Max at this point.

I am not a marital T, but I think the objection is to not take sides. It would be disturbing if the MC was siding with the wife turning MC into a possible triangulation.

It may not be a total loss as some marital T may be better than none, but Max can have his eyes wide open in this one. Trust your gut Max.

My guess is that trying to change MC at this time might not go over well, especially if the wife feels this T is on her side, and could be suspicious of a new one and assume that one is on Max's side. Max can stay aware that this MC may not be advocating for him, however, he can have advocates and advice from his support group, and personal T, DV counselor,  and consider that they have his best interest in mind when he hears their advice.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone.

Still sleeping in the other room.  Still being "kind", but not giving up too much.

Interestingly, she had 3 job interviews yesterday.  She was offered 1 job.  I did not hear any lines about chronic pain, feeling incapable, etc.   I was supportive as I could be, and congratulated her.

As for the comment about healing while I am still here- I understand that.  I don't have a bag packed, but I am considering buying a lock set and keeping it in the trunk of my car. Reason for no bag is that if it get to the point of me needing to sleep elsewhere again, I simply have the order served, and she will have to pack a bag.  The locks are for changing once she is gone.

My feeling about still being in this (for now) is less like a cut that won't heal when the knife is still present, but analogy of trying to swim across a large lake, and finding a small island to hang out on and catch my breath before the final swim.  As I told my T yesterday, her "demands" in MC basically make the r/s dead.  I see that as impossible conditions, and to move past that would require something impossible out of her. 

Wow.  She's starting with the same old crap via text message today.  And here I was thinking the ice had somewhat thawed.   Somehow, she's got it in her mind that I am trying to control her again.  I think it has to do with being offered a job, and her thinking that I have somehow forced her to work or am somehow controlling her career.  I've mostly ignored the messages.  I think she is at T now, but I think it wise to keep a careful eye on this.

I have heard it said that the best predictor of behavior is old behavior. Nothing has changed for your wife. It looks to me like you are considering some actions to protect and take care of yourself. Good for you.

But your wife has a tool box of behaviors that she uses because they work for her- raging, dysregulating, suicide threats, all have kept you in fear and doing things to manage this and keep the peace. Now, if you withdraw your caretaking behaviors- which you seem to be doing- she is first going to pull out the tools that worked in the past- the same old cr*p that she does- as you say it.

However, you, by getting support from T , your group, and the DV adviser and taking steps to take care of yourself, upholding your boudaries and standing firm in the face of her dysregulations are learning new tools.

Thanks, wendy.  I of course am immediately triggered by her behavior this morning.  Good thing is she has T.  And then plans for this afternoon.  Another good thing is that last weekend when this went on, I mostly ignored it, and she calmed on her own.  I'm just soo tempted to react here, and just be done with it all, ASAP.  It's a slow day at work.  I think I will take a loong walk right now, clear my head, and leave my phone at my desk.

Hi Maxterling, I've been following your threads and just wanted to send you a big "hang in there!". You're doing really great with this.

 

In a dysfunctional way... .she is right.

You are trying to control... .that she doesn't have complete control.  To her... .she is right.

Just remember that...

You are doing the right thing... .

FF

Well, I feel like I am doing the *only* thing.  I feel like I have few options *but* to ignore her rants and dysregulation.  Engaging in it right now would probably literally destroy me.   And I see your point about control - you are exactly right.  From her perspective, I am being controlling.  From my perspective I am simply trying to control the only thing I can - ME.

Here's my thoughts:

She seems to be dysregulating over this job thing (in addition to the baseline dysregulation of the past few weeks/months).  I've had as much input here as I feel is warranted as much as she has asked for.  Now its time to stay out of this one.

She also seems to be dysregulating (again) because I have not made specific plans with her for this weekend.  This morning, I asked her if she would be home for dinner, which she already said she had plans and did not know when she would be home. 

My feeling is this - my phone/email is quiet now.  Wait a few hours for her to sort out her job stuff, and calm down in whatever way.  Then send an email telling her what my plans are for the evening and weekend and say she is free to join me but if she has other plans I understand... .

Well, she's taking the job... .one close to home (no emoticon above seems to fit my current emotion)

Not that it changes anything, r/s wise, because I know the pattern.  But I still feel happy for her in taking control over her own life.  At least for the time being, she will have something else to focus on.     

*mod*



This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .