BPDFamily.com

A few days ago, after our MC appointment, my husband decided to talk to me on the sidewalk for two hours about how he feels. Understand  that this is the first time in about three years that my husband has actually willingly spoken to me about his feelings, thoughts, emotions and actions. I was so taken aback, I stood there and listened. Quietly, just listening. Validating. Looking into his eyes. It was important, I knew, that I be 100% present. And so I was.

As I stood there listening I came to understand that what he needed to tell me was that he believes that in the case of our previous years violence, actions, and whatnot,  he believes it all to be stemming from my anger. I stood there listening and understood this. What he was essentially doing was telling me that if I did not take responsibility and change my own anger, sadness, and abusive tendencies, he had not interest in remaining married to me. And would cease our work to repair our marriage.

I stood there completely taken aback. It was almost laughable, really. I didn't know how to take that he believes this. And then I understood that it didn't matter. I needed to simply show up and validate this was how he felt. And so I did. In the days that have followed, I have spoken to our marriage counselor, and asked what he believed might be the most effective tool to try and address what he (my husband) wishes I would address without feeling I am "giving myself away." He told me to heal myself. And if it benefits my husband so be it. But me and the kids are the focus.

A dear friend of mine in response to all this said to me that his gut reaction is that my husband stood there on the sidewalk telling me all this, while holding up a mirror. (Not technically, but that was the analogy) These are the words he is telling himself... .because he can't see himself. He sees all his anger, sadness and guilt reflected in my eyes.

What do you think about this? And what would you do?

What I neglected to say, and I'm sorry, is that he was arrested two years ago for domestic assault. In the time since he has emotionally abused me and gone back and forth time and time again as to whether he wants to "fix" our relationship or not. He has not lived in our house since the time of his arrest.

While I do not know what you should do, I wanted to let you know that exactly this happened to me.

My BF would seem the need to "undo" and project off the MC session, right outside in the parking lot.  This happened several times, when MC was specifically trying to confront him re something that was just to hard for BF to swallow.  It was like him sitting with that stuff "on him" would have drove his mind nuts, choking on the swallowing of it... .so it got vomited onto me.

I think your husband projected his anger on to you and absolved himself of what little guilt, if any at all; he felt from the marriage therapy session. 

I had the same thing occur.  One week, I discussed how I had drawn a line in the sand- no more abuse.  The rages need to stop, but I don't think they will- but the emotional abuse needs to stop.  Then I detailed the nit-picking, manipulation, the arguing about money, or childcare, or infidelity at the door when I am already late, the guilt trips, the silent treatment, etc ad nauseum. 

The next week, she came in the victim.  Told the MT that she was a victim of my rage and my abuse for decades.  Her voice quivered a little, as if a scared small child, when she said she was scared even to stand up for herself.  I almost puked on her shoes.

People with BPD project the shadow (Jung's term for everything we dislike about ourselves, and wish to not be aware of, in waking moments) onto their love object.

We all do this to some degree (project our unconscious onto the love object), I think, but with people who suffer BPD, it is different- the elements of themselves that they hate (which is almost everything) get projected onto their "non".

There is no way around this because they truly believe what they believe.  And, everyone here will attest- trying to convince them of the truth can be absolutely an Herculean task. 

I wish you the best of luck in trying to deal with this.  I have yet to figure out what to do about it / how to deal.

Love,

Surg_Bear

Butterfly12,

This is some very very difficult stuff.  A hard topic.   I'm sorry you are struggling with this.   I can't imagine the how difficult it was to listen to your husband.   

Here are my thoughts based on my experience.   What works for me, may not have any benefit for you but it is another perspective to consider.

My partner and I experienced a single episode of violence in our relationship 2 years ago which ended up with me breaking my own hand.  Long story.   Suffice to say it was an argument that got out of control for both of us.   I had surgery to repair my hand, 4 screws and titanium rod.  She didn't strike me and I didn't strike her.   I had never experienced violence in a romantic relationship before.  I handled it very badly.   

To this day my partner accepts no responsibility for that argument and is vehemently adamant that my out of control temper and anger is what caused it.   For what it's worth no one who knows me describes me as angry or in possession of a temper.   Most people who know me describe me as "mellow to point of rigor mortis".  I do accept that I made poor decisions in that argument.  I believe I was goaded into an untenable position.   I believe both of us have responsibility for that argument.  I should have walked out and stayed away until the situation cooled.

I have come to understand that to accept any responsibility for that argument would devastate my partner.   It would very nearly destroy her fragile sense of identify and self worth.   She pushes it away so hard and twists the reality of it so hard as to be frankly bizarre.

Which leaves me in a bit of a pickle.   The questions I was left with were:

• Can I accept this distorted view of this event?



• Can I draw a fence around this single event so that we don't revisit this history in future arguments?



• Can I look passed this event and feel safe and comfortable that it won't happen again?



• Can I put away my feelings of resentment?



• Have things really changed enough so this won't happen again?

What we finally ended up doing was to stop discussing the responsibility for that argument.   We never resolved it.  We just tried to look beyond it.   It was the best we could do.   I have really struggled with it.   I have particularly struggled with two parts of it.  The resentment.   @#$% I resent it.     And there are times I am afraid of it.   Because we never completely resolved it, it feels to me that there is a small possibility, (small being about 1 in 1000) that it might happen again.

We were so deadlocked on the topic that we were going to make no progress until we got off the topic and looked for places we could agree.   Once we did that, things started to progress in our r/s.   Still, the topic of that very damaging argument remains kind of limbo like out there in our past.   It's very difficult for us.   and for the people who know us as a couple.   

I chose a partner who has a mental illness.   One of the side effects of that is having to deal with issues like these.  I try to diffuse the emotions for it and look at it from a practical point of view.  Can I protect myself, emotionally and physically, all the time?   Do I have the skills and the strength?   If I fail what's the cost?   Can I accept that?   Can I be that mellow?

good luck

'ducks

 

Butterfly12,

 

Your MC has given you good advice... .focus on that.

Also... .wanted to make sure I understand.  Your husband was arrested (was he convicted?) of assault on your and has been out of house due to that for several years?

Please... .if I'm wrong... .set me straight... .this is not a subject for me to have assumptions on.

Back to the main point... .  Focusing on you and your children is productive. 

FF

Formflier,  Yes. He was arrested in October of 2013 for physically assaulting me while I held our two year old and our three week old baby in my lap. He was tried, convicted and served a sentence of defered desposition. He has not lived with us since this occurred. Nor has he willingly been in the same location unsupervised with me for any length of time- except for last week in this conversation in a parking lot.

It's incredible to read other's experiences so close to my own. Understanding that it is absolutely impossible for them to take any responsibility for their own actions... .and trying to figure out how to live beyond it. In the relationship or not. What is truly daunting to me is that regardless of our marriage, our relationship with have residual effects in the lives of our children. Forever. So how to proceed and continue on holds a heavy weight.

What is your husbands status in treatment?  Or even getting evaluationss?  Did he have to do any work with a T... .in and/or out of group... .due to DV... .as in court ordered stuff?

Who decided to not have unsupervised visits?  Was that court ordered?





Yes... .this is true.  I have children as well... .on the one hand that motivates and gives me energy to press on... .but on some days it feels like a really heavy weight.

All the work that you do and education you get from being a stayer will apply to your parental relationship as well.

Last:  What is your T status? 

FF

His sentence ended a year ago in August. And then he was legally allowed to be in contact with me. Even as far as rejoining our family if he wanted to. He was obligated by court order to seek counseling while sentenced, but that is all. No batterers intervention or group counseling. No evaluation. Nothing of that sort. He could only not be in contact with me as well as doing twice weekly counseling sessions. And he has continued on his individual counseling, as well as coming to couples counseling with me.

The no unsupervised contact is of his own accord. He has put that on us. It means all child exchanges are in public places.

My T status? You mean therapy? I go as well to my own counselor.

I'm always shocked at how similar the experiences are for those of us living with a BPD partner! I just went through a BPDh rage reaction ( 2 weeks ago) to me telling him how sad I felt that he had been so critical towards me for about a month, and that I needed him to validate me in some way (big mistake). He raged at me about what a loser I am, how slimy, filthy and deceitful I am and on and on. He took me by the shirt and hurled me out the door screaming "get out of here". I have had very little contact with him since, but there has been no apology, only justification of his actions. He, too, lives in a separate residence, yet on the same property, because he is too toxic for my kids to be around.

This is all good... .that counselling is being attended... .especially after it is not a requirement.

So... .lay out what you think are the next steps for the relationship... .where do you want this to go?  What barriers do you see to that?

FF

What I really really want is us to heal and to get to a better place. Ultimately in the same family. This has been a devastation for all of our families, a complete and utter heartbreak. What I really would like is us to come to the other side in a healed relationship.

What needs to happen is he needs to begin to trust and move on. And so do I. I'm not sure how to get to this place with each other, as so much water has gone under the bridge. It's what I want, and what he says he wants too.

Neither of us have any idea how to get there... .or at least that is what he said... .until he simply stated he needs me to own and cease to have anger at him for his actions. I just don't know how to get there.

 

Has the discussion been had in MC?  Where you both said you wanted ... .basically the same thing but didn't know how to get there?

Has he taken responsibility for the DV issues?

FF

Yes, interestingly enough, we have both said what we wanted in counseling. And to make it harder, my husband then back tracks and says, "No, I only said I wanted peace. I never said I wanted to fix our relationship absolutely. I am open to it, but I said PEACE." Which is BS. Because the next week he'll change his tune.

In terms of the DV, no. He has never taken any responsibility. None. And likely won't. He says he didn't do it. The only reason he plead guilty is because he didn't want to have to go to trial with a jury and get a worse charge... .at his lawyers recommendation.

Hi Butterfly12,

So I am wondering, just curious, when you think about this, healing and getting to a better place, how does that look to you inside your head.   Do you think about you and him and the family having dinner together?   Can you put together an inner vision that has clarity and detail?   In 3D so to speak?  Can you picture you all going off grocery shopping together?   It sounds like maybe healing and getting to a better place for your husband doesn't have a lot of 3D detail, that maybe he just wants the strife to end?

For me, and my experience was/is significantly different from yours,  my goal at the time was to see my partner and not be torn apart.  The practical reality was we were going to be in each others lives to some degree, in some yet to be determined way, and it really needed to be less volatile.   It took me a while but eventually I could envision sitting with her at park having a sandwich.   And that was what we did as we started to 'thaw'.   We ended up in a park, with about 120 other people, 20 who knew us and our story for a 4th of July picnic.   We shared a blanket with another family and talked about books and recipes.   It was fraught.  It was tense.  And it was the first step at moving forward.

Honestly, if my experience had played out differently than it did, I would be writing a different post.   My line in the sand is hitting is no good.  No on hits me ever.   Hitting is a deal breaker.  My personal opinion and my own value is that hitting is impossible to come back from.   In my situation we were just on the edge of that, in our argument that got out of control I lost my temper and in my fury and frustration I did something I never have done in my life, I struck a wall.  And broke my own hand.   To this day, I struggle with damage this did.  Not in my hand, in my head.

I can't imagine trying to do this with children in the picture.   It has to make things even harder.

I would say, from my view in the cheap seats,   It's really okay to be a little selfish here.  Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I wish I had been a little more selfish, a little more concerned with my feelings, a little more willing to say, this is all I got right now, take it or leave it and tough sh!t to you bub.   There are times when it's okay to not be kind.   Rarely but there are times.   I think this qualifies.

'ducks

Butterfly12,

Another thought,  I just went back and read some of your older posts,   (which I should have done before) trying to get a sense of your story.  My bad.  :)

Back on June 29 you mentioned in a post that your husband threatened your 8 year old daughter?

So, what's under consideration here is your safety and your children's safety?  How safe do you feel around your husband?

'ducks

babyducks,

I feel fairly confident that he would not do anything that might land him in that brand of trouble again. But perhaps it is the main reason why he limits our contact so severely. He doesn't have the same confidence in himself. He says it is because he is concerned that I would do something like call the cops again on him if he was "mean" to me. He says this is the primary reason he will not spend time with us to start "rebuilding trust." He does not believe that his behaviour influenced the actions of our lives at all.

He has been in my daughter's life since she was not quite two years old. She is now ten and a half. The past two years watching her evolve and become less stressed, anxious, and actually laughing while doing chores is an amazing thing to see. He was right on her all the time. When she was four years old he started insisting she help around the house in a way that I now understand was completely unreasonable. She had no idea what was going on... .and as a novice mom I now understand I should have stuck up for her, but the fact is, I was scared. I wanted to defend my child but that anger was terrifying. There is no excuse now for me NOT defending her. It is a huge regret in my life. The past two years have been all about rebuilding confidence in her, which now, watching her perform on stage, has come back in leaps and bounds. Thank goodness.

 

So... .direct question... .

Are you going to be able to build a relationship (co-parenting or otherwise) with a person that assaulted you... .but says they didn't do it?

FF

Butterfly12,

The issue is amplified when children are around.  I lived this last summer... .in a situation that doesn't seem as "extreme" as butterlyf12s.

Quick version:  As a family... we were believers in corporal punishment.  Never out of anger... .there was a "proper" way to do it.  My wife started getting away from that.  Discipline during rages became more common... .my questions/complaints/worries where dismissed.  Lots of other bad r/s stuff was going on... .and my wife was freaking out a bit... .because I was starting to use tools used here. 

Anyway... .she tried to spank 3 at once.  The most horrible thing I have ever heard/witnessed.  The kids did need to be punished/corrected... .but the way it was done was way out of line. 

But... .I knew that life could not go forward without this stopping... .or me attempting to stop it.  I ultimately got social services involved... .and the picture muddies there because what happened didn't rise to the level of abuse (marks and stuff). 

We got into family therapy and many things got better.  My wife and I owned lots of our bad behavior. 

Corporal punishment stopped in our house

So... with turning our backs on that... .I can see a pathway to rebuild things with my wife.  And largely we have.

Had she not turned from that... .I can't imagine we could have continued.

There is something about physical violence... .that is a big line. 

I think it can be repaired... .but parties must own it... .own their part.  Denial is bad.

Thoughts?

Only you can decide what you can and can't live with.  They are your values... .just wanted to provide some context for another parent with a similar struggle.

Final thought: 

We each owned stuff... .and put it in the past... .we don't bring it up.  My wife will occasionally try to bait me... .but I don't bite.  It's over... .forgiven... .I've moved on. 

That is different from pretending it never happened... or forgetting.

FF

For as long as this has been, (the past two years) I have tried to "put the past behind me." I owned all I could and took responsibility for my anger and sadnesses, depression and anxiety and "hormonal" issues. (One of his good friends is convinced that I went crazy after the birth of our youngest and that is why my husband was convicted.

Seriously.

I am waiting to hear "his side." I very much want to hear what he thinks happened that day he was arrested, but he is yet to tell me. It becomes increasingly obvious he thinks I am the one with mental problems, as he widely shares with his community... .but still tells me to stop badmouthing him publicly. (Which I have not done. I have talked about the events with close friends and family, and to a wider audience who has the audacity to ask, I say we are trying to get back together and fix our marriage.)

 

Can you get back together with him... .if we won't even discuss "his side of things"?

It's been two years.  What is his explanation... .for his silence on this topic?

FF

 

Try this on for size... .

It's been two years... .I get the sense that there hasn't been much "resolution" in your life for that time.  (correct?)

Well... .I would work with a T (your own) and figure out a plan to move forward with life with your child... .and leave an "appropriate opening" in that life for your husband. 

Basically... if he is well behaved and contributing there is a spot for him... .but that you are not "counting" on him.

I would encourage you to figure out your life... .rather than his. 

Thoughts?

FF

It has been two years. And we have three children together. 10, 4, and 2. About a year ago, I essentially "reclaimed" my life in the sense you are speaking and from all appearances starting living my life, without him in it. I got a 25 hour a week job and stopped thinking he might come home.

I have been living my life on my own terms... .but leaving a place for him if he ever decides to rejoin our family. But I keep feeling like he needs me to close off that possibility in my heart... .take our that "spot." The kicker is though that he tells EVERYONE he wants to heal our marriage and move back home. EVERYONE. And what he tells me goes so back and forth. The reason he gives me the silent treatment in terms of "his side" of the story is that he doesn't feel safe with me. And how I read that is that he knows I know the truth.

Today is our wedding anniversary. Not sure how I will make it through the day.

 

Butterfly12


 

Hugs for your wedding anniversary.

My prayer for you is that you are able to learn skills from bpdfamily to help heal your family and improve your support system.

My anniversary 2 years ago (just before I figured out the BPD thing) was the worst ever.

Last years anniversary was great!

Hang in there!

FF

That hits the nail on the head. Well put.

My wife claims I and my entire family look down at her as dumb and not good enough to be part of the family. No one has ever said or done anything to justify this. But she has low self esteem, thinks this of herself, and projects it on everyone else.     

This is probably a trigger for him as well as you. Is he reaching out to you?

Nope... .Not a word. I even saw him this afternoon. He said nothing to me at all. Just handed me our daughter and walked away.

This morning I was a wreck... .and it took me all day to come to the conclusion this is the last day I mourn our marriage and relationship as it was. Tomorrow I wake up with new skin and take control of my life as it is now. Move

on.   Needless to say, I cried all day. All through work, all through waiting tables, all through driving home and frying eggs for dinner because I couldn't fathom anything else.

A part of me is relieved. But a part of me is shattered. How could he marry me five years ago and then just allow our family to fall apart like this? With no acceptance, no effort. Nothing.

Sigh. Sad.

Remember that pwBPD do/say one thing when they actually want/mean something else. Is it possible that he has such core shame issues that he does not believe he deserves to have your love any more, even though he wants it? 

Butterfly12,

I am sorry that you are going through such a difficult time.   What you describe sounds very painful.   It must feel disappointing in the extreme.


because he very likely suffers from a serious mental disorder, which can include cognitive distortions.    When he told you outside your MC appointment that he believes the problems all stems from your anger, and abusive tendencies, he meant that.   That's his reality and it is very real to him.  Mind you, I am not saying I agree with him, and I am not saying he is right.   Only that his perception is as real to him as my tea cup is to me.

Margalis Fjelstad says pwBPD have these traits in common:

- Intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary

- Their interpretation of events is the only truth

- Cannot be persuaded by fact or logic

- Do not see the impact of their own behavior on others

- Deny the perceptions of others

Intellectually that explains the how and the why of why he does what he does.   

It doesn't help with the grieving process that you know find yourself in.   I think we all entered our relationships with the assumption that we were partnering with a mentally healthy person.   It is a horrible blow, to come to any type of terms with the fact the person we fell in love with does not have mentally healthy traits.   And to a degree can not be an equal partner to us.

It is very sad.   It's very hard to accept.   That the idealization phase that we fell in love with, the mirroring that went on in the early stages of our relationship is over and now we are faced with the limitations.

How are you doing today?

'ducks

I don't have any wisdom to offer, so I just wanted to give you a hug 

Yesterday was ok. I was able to keep in my head that idea that to take the love in your heart you spread that all around. Don't focus it on one person who cannot receive and appreciate it. Appropriately we had a family gathering last night and I was able to spread that stuff all around. IT felt amazing. And I kept feeling like it was a wonderful thing for my children to see me smiling, laughing, and being loved and respected by other adults. That's not something they see very often.

My husband tried very hard to keep me from bringing our children, as he thinks my family is "messed up" and "crazy," but I flat out ignored him and took him on the approval he gave earlier in the week to trade the time with our children for this one special family occasion. He actually tried to go back on it, which is appalling. And might have really triggered me if I hadn't simply ignored him.

That's the thing. They know how to get us... .after such long years together they know exact words, phrases and actions that will simply drive us insane... .and learning how to just walk away without a sassy remark back is my hardest lesson.

How do you feel after learning this lesson?

 

FF

Jeeeez.

Yesterday was a day of my husband trying to get me to engage all day long. Through text messages. And I spent the whole day either not playing or saying: "What you are saying is hurting my feelings. Please stop."

And then it just got worse and worse.

I don't understand. What is the term for when they just suddenly crack and try and try and try to get you to engage to feed their need for involvement? And what are we supposed to do when they do that? Did I do the right thing?

I always feel better if I simply don't engage- as in- don't text back or walk away... .but I don't know if it's the right thing. I'm getting so tired of the push/pull.

An extinction burst. If you give in to the drama, it only reinforces his behavior. When you don't give in, he escalates to try to get you to engage. If this is a boundary that is important to you, being consistent in not engaging is crucial. It sounds like you are doing the right thing! It just doesn't feel like it when you're in the middle of it.  

Hi Butterfly12,

It could be a couple of things,   he could be projecting his negative emotions onto you.  A kind of "I feel rotten I will bait some one else until they respond and then we argue and I get the cathartic release of dumping negative emotions" approach to self soothing.

It could be a I feel bad about the state of my marriage and I have to prove that Butterfly12 is at fault and has treated me badly so I can justify my rotten behavior.

It could be he emotional dsyregulated and was venting excess emotion.

It's always better to not engage when the conversation becomes negative, disrespectful or detrimental to anyone's peace of mind.  

My opinion is you did a good thing by attempting to enforce a boundary.  We talk about boundaries here a lot and how they are helpful to us.  

I would have probably tweaked how you expressed the boundary just a little.

I would have said "I feel hurt by what is being said in these texts.  I am turning off the phone for now and will talk to you again tomorrow."

Can you see how that is different from what you said?

My boundary uses I statements,   I feel hurt, not you are hurting my feelings.   It's a subtle thing but it changes the focus.  It puts me in control of my feelings.  

And since I feel hurt it's my job to do something about it.   Hence I am turning off my phone.  Bing Bang Done.

Since I know pwBPD suffer from abandonment issues I am also making it clear I will be back tomorrow.

Then I really do have to turn off the phone and stop looking at the text messages.  And trust me I know that isn't easy.

Does that make any sense?

'ducks

Yes, it seems we all share similar experiences. I am too quite sure that your h projected himself or as you say, held the mirror. My conclusion coming from a life with BPDh is that whoever wants to survive with a BPD partner has to learn a new language. When I communicate with my h during his dark phases I really feel like listening to another language and I had to learn to speak it, too. I find that my understanding is better than speaking, which is actually a fact with foreign languages.

Or you may call it reading between the lines or anything else: another computer program ... .

Some ten years ago I heard a similar open confession from my h and it was also a monologue, but not in form of mirroring, more like playing a victim. It was a turning point to me, not so much because of his confessing, more because of my reaction to it. I found myself in a state of detachment or lack of compassion: I did not believe his role of a victim, it suddenly looked so funny to me. I did not laugh, of course, but found it easier to listen. It was as if I found a scale with which to measure the truth of his sentences. Namely one of them was: "If anything happens to me... .(and he gave me a sort of his wishes for his burial)" It was said with purpose to alarm me and I wasn´t alarmed I just listened and nodded and just said that I understand.

(He didn´t harm himself, he just needed to be listened and God knows a BPD wants it in a distorted way.)

It is very difficult to dive in their language and stay calm. When my day is good than I function inside his world, but when I am stressed from work or in a bad mood I have no patience.

I totally understand you and I think you are strong. One really needs inner strength not to fall apart when living with a BPD partner.

A critical point... .

Need to be able to interpret this language without being judgmental about whether or not they should even speak the language.  It is... .what it is.

Take comfort from the fact that there is a language... .and an "order to the disorder".  That will help anyone order their life again... .reduce chaos... .more predictability.

FF

I would have turned off my phone. The problem is we have three children together, and he is allowed contact with them. Also, the baby was sick yesterday and I was at work all day.

Today, if he starts in, I will say the children are fine, politely, and then turn off the phone.

When I read through again the text messages, I was incorrect in my wording. I did say that my feelings were hurt, not "you hurt my feelings." I understand completely the difference and it is huge in dealing with my husband. Owning my own emotions, even if they are completely discounted and unimportant.

Not sure I understand how having children requires a phone to stay on... .I may be missing the point... .as it appears your future plan is to turn it off.

Try to simplify thinking... .

He is saying abusive or hurtful things... .phone off and let him know approx time you will check back in with him.  No need to modify that for sick kids, kids, work, weather... .any of that... .

Think about good better best. 

Saying you hurt my feelings is good (but... issues with saying you... )  My feelings are hurt is better... .(I statements)... .

What is best?  I would suggest acting in a way that protects your feelings and maybe not saying anything to him about it.   (Many time actions that are consistent are more powerful than words... .)

Thoughts?

FF

FF

Nice job owning your own feelings.   You are half way there.

I get that you were at work and needed to leave the phone on in case of a call from the sick child at home.

The point is to stop a non productive conversation.   Mind,  he won't want to curtail a circular conversation.   He is getting something out of it.  A place to dump his negative emotions.

Your presence in a conversation is a gift not a  requirement.

One of my go to phrases is, I need to stop this conversation now, we can talk about something else or I can talk to you later.

Nice... .

What is the usual response?  Or is there one... .

This make is not so "my way or the highway... .gives the other person a choice.

|iiii

FF

Response varies.   Lately it's been we move on to a different topic.

And so... .This past couple of days while I was mostly off line brought up some new, very frustrating events.

FIRST: he texts me on Tuesday after I told him I had to cancel our counseling this week to tell me that he had written me a letter he wanted to read which contained, as he put it, his "last resort."

I call the counselor, and because he can't put us on at all for the next month if we cancelled, and tell him plans change and we are back on.

So I show up to counseling. My husband is late. And when he does come he says he isn't going to read the letter. Instead he angrily starts saying to me, "what is it you want to fix this marriage? Do you want me to come crawling back to you on my hands and knees begging forgiveness and owning that I am the one with mental issues? That's never ever going to happen because it isn't MY fault."

And I calmly say that I came today with the intention of listening, and that it isn't my space to talk right now. I said I am not prepared to have this conversation. I would like to hear how you feel, as that is what you said yesterday in your text message.

He balks, and this goes back and forth a number of times, with me saying simply, "No." and him saying "FINE. It's a power struggle you need to win. I'll read it." And this letter goes on and on and on, as with many philosophical references, but in the end makes ultimately no sense. I ask what he means by mentioning both Eckhart Tolle and Carlos Castenada, using their terms for "ego" and "pain body." He can't answer. He has no answer.

In the final moments of the session, after I respond carefully to this letter, saying, yes, I believe that marriage is full of hard times and that we are meant to work gently to the other side, respecting each other and being mindful of each other's hardships.

He explodes yet again, and says to me, "You know what I want? I want you to stop being angry. The explosive anger you have towards me needs to stop. Like RIGHT NOW. And the way you tell me your feelings? Over and over and over and over? Because you think I don't hear you ***(This had been a short piece earlier in the session)****, STOP. I don't want to hear it."

My sister and my dearest friend don't know what to tell me. I sit and can't believe I'm in this. I'm trying to cope the best I can. The "explosive" anger he talked about is the fact I get intensely bad anxiety attacks. Only in the past couple years since all our problems began have they been really really bad. (But honestly he sees none of this, really. Granted, yes, I do blow up at him from time to time. Because he knows EXACTLY how to push my buttons. Much less since I've been reading and learning about BPD.)

Hi Butterfly12,

Ah @#$% this stinks doesn't it?  I have been stuck in those reality distortion whirlwinds with my partner and @#$$ it absolutely sucks.



Well that is HIS bottom line huh.   He is not going to accept his part of this.   And he is going to twist reality until it fits something he can tolerate.   


This looks like projection to me.


And this looks like a double bind to me.

What on earth was your counselor doing while all this was going on?

How do you feel today?    And what do you see as your path forward from here?

'ducks

Have you ever watched an episode of the TV show Hoarders?  And seen where the poor suffering hoarder is earnestly , adamantly and passionately explaining to the therapist how they NEED to have that one extra umbrella, that they really are going to use that umbrella SOME DAY.   That it is very IMPORTANT they keep that umbrella and that NO they don't have too many things.

This is kind of the same thing.   Reality being twisted to assuage fears.

And like the hoarder, they are so freaking persuasive about it, especially when you are in the middle of it, that its very hard to pull apart and determine what is really going on.

Hang in there and be kind to yourself today.

So. After writing an email to my husband that said simply "I'm done," and having a response that was littered with "lets peacefully and lovingly get divorced," I wrote back saying that that wasn't what I was suggesting.

He then got all huffy because he believed he had been "let off the hook."

I emailed him back with the admittance of a panic disorder, which is true, and asked if I could be left completely alone for the next six weeks while I learn to get a handle on the treatment. He hasn't yet responded. In this email I also framed out very carefully why being heard and discounted in my feelings is a major trigger for me, and the interaction with him causes undue stress while trying to get to the roots of my issue. I was completely humble and spoke all "about me," which will obviously either make him say I'm a "selfish brat," or he will be sighing a huge sigh of relief, because it puts no blame on him whatsoever.

I feel like I did the right thing.

But it is unreally frustrating to feel like he truly cannot take responsibility. I spoke to our MC individually and he is appalled by my husband's inability to accept any fault. And he can't quite figure out how to approach it. The counselor strongly believes my working on myself will benefit me, my children and all the relationships in my life... .and I believe this to be true. Getting a handle on a panic disorder is like breathing in fresh air after too long.

(Two years, to be exact... .)

 

Also work on consistent... clear... .communication that follows the rules on bpdfamily.

What did you mean by "I'm done"?  I've had that said to me many times... .it's usually in the context of a divorce threat... .or end of r/s threat.

Working on panic is great!

FF

I hope you get the response you are looking for.

I suspect that this exchange might look like push/pull to him.   Or be slightly beyond his ability to accept at this point and he might react angrily.   doesn't mean you shouldn't have said it.   

let us know how you make out.

The panic attacks can be so hard. I know exactly what you mean when they turn into getting angry. It can get really demoralizing. Like your husband, my boyfriend latches right onto those panic attacks and will systematically attack me during them until I become angry.

I used to feel that if I didn't stay right in the conversation or room with him, I was being a huge failure. A co dependent course of action, I think. I began to get over that last year, and started to develop strategies for at least stepping away from him to go calm myself.

It has only been partly successful. He will give some pretty nasty parting shots, which can easily send me right over the edge from a panic attack to #@#$% I am having a panic attack that he CAN SEE and KNOWS is happening, I am trying to PRESERVE US by stepping away and he decides to HELP by ramping up being a jerk?

BOOM.

Not always, but to him, the point is proven, it's all my fault, and he just refuses to be with someone like me until I stop abusing him.

Bleh.

As time has gone on, I am learning to pick up on the anxiety earlier. I am better at stepping away. I have a long way to go. And to my boyfriend, even one mistake ruins everything. I am not sure how to deal with THAT long term. It's possible I can't.

You are right to focus on your panic attacks. 6 weeks may sound like a long time, but they will fly by quickly. I will be thinking of you and following your posts, hopefully I can add some support!  

So predictably he responded in the vein of, "well, finally, you admit it all is your fault. Good. But I still don't know if I want to be married to you."

This wasn't EXACTLY what was said, an oversimplification, but essentially the jist.

I expected he would be relieved I accepted my issues, but the one thing I didn't count on is that he would completely disregard his own piece in the entire thing and own exactly nothing, while heaping all blame onto my shoulders. Like I was the one who physically assaulted HIM. He basically said that I destroyed him with my own hands, ruining him socially. The ego piece is one I am afraid he won't ever get beyond. In his mind I humiliated him socially, took his kids from him and made false accusations of physical and emotional abuse.

I just don't understand how he can be so... ."great, finally you owned it. You ARE crazy." When it's me being humble.

I responded to the latest email, saying that it felt to me that he was just ready to divorce, but I was open to being wrong and having misinterpted what he is saying. I said it was my greatest hope that with my work on self, and with his, we could turn a new page and begin a new chapter of more peace and better compassion and better understanding for each other.

We'll see what happens. I told him that was my final communication for the next weeks, unless, of course, he chooses to end our marriage NOW. Which I have no idea what he'll do. It's in his court. Again.

So he wrote back, saying I was "pushing" him to go one way or the other, which couldn't be further from the truth. In reality I said: If you want an out, as it seems you might, here you go.

But he said I wasn't making sense and that I needed to stop pushing him. I did say that it was my last correspondence, and so I didn't respond again, as I know he wanted me to. Now to buckle down and work on me... .hm... .

Hey... .if faced with these statements in the future... .consider "STOP" as a response... .a way to deflect.

Sorry you feel that way... .

That's your opinion... .

Ohhh

Perhaps you are correct.

This assumes that the statements coming your way are not abusive and you want to try to continue and calm the conversation.

If you can find a validation target... that is better.

Good plan to work on yourself!

FF

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .