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Having PTSD, a big trigger for me is an invalidating environment.  Being in a situation where it is apparent that the reality of others is out of harmony with my own.  (Therefore a desire to either adjust my or their perception, remove myself, or remind myself I'm ok in my reality even when it doesn't match another's ... .and use some coping skills)

So I wonder exactly, what IS validation?

When we use it on someone and validate them... .

We are essentially telling them they are ok.

When someone validates us... .

We feel like they tell us we are ok.

Validation just sounds like a dependence on an external source to tell you: You are ok.

So why do we need/desire that?

Do some people NOT need validation?

Is our "need" for validation proportionate to feelings of self worth?

So if we have a really firm self worth = no need for validation?  (I cannot imagine that circumstance, does it exist for real?)

Does the Dalai Lama need validation? 

Thoughts?

You could say the Dalai Lama has validation from deep insight. A source of self-validation from being free of early needs (if that makes sense)



with that said, I think it's a basic human need to belong/validated. I believe humans are social creatures and the lack of belonging can be very detrimental.

Now does the sense of belonging have to be other people? Not necessarily. It could be other ways to connet to the world such as art, hobby, etc

Thank you!  That makes sense :)

I found this really cool article that breaks down validation. I know there are lots and lots resources on this site about validation. I liked this one because it gives simple examples and also talks about internal validation.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pieces-mind/201204/understanding-validation-way-communicate-acceptance

I think everyone needs some kind of validation. I am guessing that the Dalai Lama relies heavily on internal validation. I think being able to validate oneself is one of the halmarks of being emotionally healthy.

I really liked this quote from the article:

Yes, I imagine that we look for validation from outside sources less as our self-worth increases.  It seems also that as we grow our self-worth and confidence, self-consciousness and fear recedes and is replaced by feelings of tranquility.  What things boost your self-worth?

Thanks guys!

That's the thing tho... .

I wonder if looking for "things" to boost my self worth is like a dog chasing it's tail.

Maybe a goal could be to: Not need validation from any source?

Thanks VOC!

This is an excellent article!

I am pissed at myself right now for my brain damaged mind of PTSD, as I have in fact encountered this article before.  It is helpful in many ways.

Do you keep some organized database VOC? (I mean this seriously... .as I try to be organized at info I find... .but then am pissed at myself for letting it slip my mind)

I don't think that is a doable goal.

I wonder if a better goal might be to:

Focus on validating myself and limiting the need for external validation.

Have you tried looking at it from a different perspective, such as, what things decrease your self worth? What things invalidate you?

As someone else said, it is a human want and need to be validated.  Essentially validation is a form of understanding a person's perspective. Marsha Linehan (2015) states, that validation improves interactions with others by showing that they are listening, being understanding, and non judgmental.  It allows us to be close to another person and be supported.  

Lol, but why?

Why do we need validation?  It seems like a perceptual issue.

I think the bpdfamily forum can be a great example of validation. People share their ordeals, people identify, and help out each other. You could say that if someone is devoid of the need for validation, they would not even be here because they would not have suffered from the lack of validation from an abusive/BPD partner.

Have you ever read 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius? It's writing based on stoicism and you could make the argument that it teaches to be free of external validation. Some of my favorites are:






I find them really powerful, but are very difficult to apply at times!

I think it needs to be separated into two types: internal vs. external

We need to be able to validate ourselves. If you don't think that your ideas, thoughts, feelings, values, or other things about yourself are valid, then it seems to me like a person would have no real identity. In my opinion, self validation is part of self worth.

I can see asking the question of "Why do we need external validation?" I think being around people that provide external validation contributes to ones sense of belonging. Maslow's hierarchy of needs spells out that one needs to feel safe and have a sense of belonging. I think being in validating environments goes a long way to helping a person feel safe and feel a sense of belonging. I don't know if it would help to read a little bit about Maslow's hierarchy but here is an article that talks about a person's basic needs: www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

The Dalai Lama has reached the highest level of the pyramid. I would guess that external validation was very much a part of what helped him along the way.

I'm not sure that it's wise to completely eliminate external validation, or rely solely on internal validation.  Going to the extreme in either direction seems sort of like setting oneself up for an imbalance.  (I imagine a pendulum swinging from one end to the other)  What I'm suggesting is a healthy balance between validating oneself and external validation.

For instance... .I needed external validation to stay safe while riding a horse today.  I needed validation from the horse as well as another rider because I was in a situation where I was about to lose control of the horse.  Had I not sought validation from the other rider or the horse I rode, a. I would not have learned and b. I might have ended up on the ground. 

There are times when I'm validated and I don't feel that I need that validation.  But I'm sure glad that my friends and family offer their support and validation.  "Hey, great job."  "So proud of you!"  Those statements are rooted in love... .   

Eric Berne did a lot of work which relates to the ways in which we interact with each other. A lot of people have never heard of Transactional Analysis, but maybe you've heard of Berne's book Games People Play? My T turned me onto TA, almost as an aside. I had heard of the book.

From:  www.ericberne.com/transactional-analysis/

Strokes

As stated earlier, Berne defined a stroke as the “fundamental unit of social action.”11 A stroke is a unit of recognition, when one person recognizes another person either verbally or non verbally. Berne introduced the idea of strokes into Transactional Analysis based upon the work of Rene Spitz, a researcher who did pioneering work in the area of child development. Spitz observed that infants deprived of handling – in other words, not receiving any strokes – were more prone to emotional and physical difficulties. These infants lacked the cuddling, touching, and handling that most other infants received.

Berne took Spitz’s observations of these infants and developed theories about the needs of adults for strokes. Berne postulated that adults need need physical contact just like infants, but have learned to substitute other types of recognition instead of physical stimulation. So while an infant needs cuddling, an adult craves a smile, a wink, a hand gesture, or other form of recognition. Berne defined the term recognition-hunger as this requirement of adults to receive strokes.

Berne also reasoned that any stroke, be it positive or negative, is better than no strokes at all. Or, as summarized in TA Today, “any stroke is better than no stroke at all.”12 For example, if you are walking in front of your house and you see your neighbor, you will likely smile and say “Hi.” Your neighbor will likely say “hello” back. This is an example of a positive stroke. Your neighbor could also frown at you and say nothing. This is an example of a negative stroke. But either case is better than no stroke at all, if your neighbor ignored you completely.

I have two questions about validation:

One: how does one handle it if they are in a situation where they are being judged and invalidated?  For example,  I work two jobs and at my second job the people there have a tendency to judge and criticize at a high level of frequency.  In essence, they look for things that are "wrong" or that a person is "doing wrong" over anything else.  I brought this up to a manager and she said, they critique everyone in the same manner so she felt that they are being fair.    At my day job,  when they do coaching they will tell people their strong points before telling them the areas they can work on.  Actually, they usually ask: "what areas do you think you need more help on? "  From here they will send you a report of their interaction with you and detail strengths and weeknesses.  I feel much more validated in the latter environment.   

In the second job, they don't seem to recognize things that people do on a positive level and yet they are many times asking for more, more, more.  When I try to set a boundary they don't like it.  Therefore, we have been talking about how to validate others but any ideas on how to handle things when one is in an environment that is very invalidating to ourselves?

TWO: how does one validate when two other are arguing? 

I have two children and when we are together my son will not validate my daughter and in fact he speaks from an all knowing position which makes her upset.  "you said that ... .and i was just saying that this is not true... ."  That infuriates her!

However,  if i try to correct him from correcting her then essentially, i'm doing the same thing to him that he is doing to her.  And so I'd like to get some ideas on how validating can be used when I have to step in during times when emotions are high?

thanks

VOC, Blissful_camper,

I guess I wonder if not needing validation is an even healthier halmark?

When I am healthier, therefore not needing external validation, and can feel good solely relying on internal validation... .Isn't there at some point I just KNOW I'm ok and don't need to remind myself?  And yes, feel contentment and tranquility in this?

It seems a bit silly to have to find a complicated way to say to myself, "Hey, Sunflower, you are A OK today!"

Yes EaglesJuju, Blissful_camper also asked these things.  Thank you guys!  Let me think... .

Ok, so I'll relate it to me now... .

I'm in a bit of a depressive funk.  I feel like it is because I am invalidating myself.  I am doing things that do not feel true to me... .wallowing, hiding, etc.  When what would be true to me would be getting outdoors more for some nature, moving and being more physical outdoors in some way.

This would certainly increase my feelings of self worth.  I would feel better about myself.

This is definately a helpful and true thing for me to be aware of and get started on.

Another part of me still wonders why we need validation.  Can't we just feel a deep sense of self worth or rather feel insignificant enough that it shouldn't matter?  Can't we just simply "be" without any seeking of this?

_{(I disagree with Marsha calling it a "need."  I think desire or drive is more accurate.)}

rotiroti,

Yes, bpdfamily is fantastic for validation.  I do enjoy all the validating exchanges!

I looked him up. 

I like the quotes you shared.  And also:

“When another blames you or hates you, or people voice similar criticisms, go to their souls, penetrate inside and see what sort of people they are. You will realize that there is no need to be racked with anxiety that they should hold any particular opinion about you.”

― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations (a good one for us Leaving folks :) )

“Here is a rule to remember in future, when anything tempts you to feel bitter: not "This is misfortune," but "To bear this worthily is good fortune.”

― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

:)

Nice! I love the concept of 'amor fati' -- loving fate no matter the outcome. That second quote you mentioned is one of my favorites!



Methinks you're onto something, you have great insight to how you're feeling! I think being down and perhaps a little lonely, it's easy to think about our current station in life. I think you posted something about how happy you were when you went horse-back riding. When you were lost in the moment, did you think about how you were actively engaged in life and ponder, 'wow i feel validated and happy'?

If you are anything like me, you probably didn't.

You probably had a huge grin and enjoyed the moment. I think those moments are validating without actively engaging it. When I picture a happy life I want, I know it's within me to make the thought and behavioral changes to make it happen. Little moments of validation in what I love will help me achieve that. Eventually when I'm there I won't question my motives to realizar my dream.

You might really like the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline" (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/stop-caretaking-borderline-or-narcissist). I know we're on the moving phase, but there are few chapters that discuss why caretakers seek validation from people who can not give it to them. It's a great read!

Decide whether or not you are strong enough to withstand such a negative environment. Find alternative sources of validation outside  that particular environment.


If you are dealing with your children, I think it takes a slightly different approach than dealing with others. Have you ever asked him something like, "Why can't you both be right?" When my kids do stuff like that, I try to talk to them about how they came to the conclusion that they did. Unless it is something that is a fact, there is a good chance that you can discuss with them why both of them are right in a validating way.

I agree, that it does appear to help a person feel safe.

I guess this is what my wondering is about.  Another member suggested to read up on the theories of Jacques Lacan's.  I admit that I am missing grasping a big part of his theories and have yet to fully wrap my mind around it all.  However, from what I can gather and understand is that his theories are controversial and the concept of Maslow's hierarchy has no place in it all.  The concept of needing to develop in order to reach some goal of self actualization is just, not real.  His idea of "real" is actually most confusing.

Anyway, I guess what I am pondering feels more like a person pondering the existence of God.  Maybe I am pondering a belief system/theory.  I did not originally think that, but am now wondering if that is what I'm doing.  Hence why I'm feeling stuck without an answer.

I guess I wonder if the Dalai Lama seeks internal validation.  I somehow imagine not.

So where I'm at now is thinking of this in terms of it's own hierarchy... .

1. Contentment

2. Soothing self with internal validation

3. Soothing self with external validation

I can understand that when you are in a depressive funk that you would not feel like doing things that you normally enjoy.  Feeling depressed can drain you mentally and physically. I know how tough it is.

When your depression is triggered, do you always react with hiding or wallowing?


We can feel a deep sense of self-worth/self-esteem by validating ourselves. Self-worth is tied to self-esteem. Self-worth is an individual's sense of self/identity and beliefs/values, how we intrinsically feel about ourselves. For example, self-worth is believing that you are important, lovable, and a valuable person; it is how you value yourself. Many times feelings of shame are tied to a person's sense of worth. Self-esteem is how we perceive ourselves based on how others react to us; it is what we think and believe about ourselves.  Essentially, you need to have a sense of self-worth to have  good self-esteem.

While we may not need to seek external validation, it is a component in self-esteem. When we are encouraged, supported, or approved from another it builds self-esteem. Conversely, when we are invalidated it can destroy self-esteem.  It is a way that we are nurtured as human beings. Interacting/relationships with others is a part of human nature.

I don't know if it is healthier or not. What I think is the healthiest thing of all is being able to be aware enough to know your own level of need and be okay with it. Different people are in different places along that spectrum.

If I am honest enough with myself to say, "Hey, I need to be in an affirming environment. I do not do well in environments that are negative and invalidating." I don't know that I will ever be okay with people that are negative and invalidating on a consistent basis. I cannot thrive in that kind of environment. Does that make me unhealthy?


What is so complicated about checking in with yourself like that? I check in with my kids like that, why not check in with myself?

Getting feedback on performance, I think is a different category than I'm speaking of. 

I don't believe validation keeps us safe.  I feel that is an illusion we create.  We can be safe without it. 

Don't get me wrong, it feels good, I DO FEEL like I need it, but I am questioning my own desire and wondering why I should need this "illusion." I will still be coming here to give and receive validation by the way!  Please don't deny this! lol... .I'm just curious and thinking out loud these things to sort them better for my own understanding.


Maybe that is it then... .Maybe validation feels like love?

Thank you Turkish,

I must have read on this many years ago... .it is very familiar.  Somehow I stored this in my head under a tab titled schema therapy... .maybe it is related?

truthbeknown,

Sometimes at work I offer to share with them my experiences of how another approach and solution to the issue has been effective.

For ex if a coworker was being trashed for being chronically late... .I'd say:

I have had a similar difficulty with a coworker being late all the time, at another job.  Pointing out her lateness was not effective at all at changing  behavior, however, what did work... .they had her use a punch card.  Is that something we can do here?

Even if you are not successful in getting them to apply a new method of addressing issues, at least you redirected the conversation to a more problem solving approach vs criticism.

On the second job, probably you would get some validation through your coworkers that are feeling the same pressures no?

The kids: Validate! Lol!  Perfect time to validate and show that son a good model of a validating interaction.

For ex: So it sounds like you are frustrated at sister right?  Can you tell me why? Well, yes I can understand that it can be frustrating when you feel she is not being honest with you. (IDK if the coparenting board or parenting board works on this more... .I forget... but I've seen them do a great job coaching members through specific incidents.)  You may want to post a separate thread for this... .so people will focus on you better and give it the attention it deserves.

From what I understand, Maslow's hierarchy seems to have no place in it because there doesn't seem to be a prioritization of any specific need. I am basing my conclusions on what I have personally experienced. Maslow's hierarchy may miss the mark in a lot of ways. I think the basic idea that it is difficult to do more complex thinking and processing when basic biological needs are not being met. I see that with my kids every day. If they are hungry, asking them to think or function is going to be futile. Same thing with them being tired.


I am going to ask you to think about something. Why does it matter what the Dalai Lama does? What do YOU do? What do YOU need? Are you wanting to have a philosophical discussion or a practical discussion? Philosophical discussions are wonderful. My husband and I have spent a whole lot of time having philosophical discussions. The problem with philosophical discussions is that they don't always represent reality.

At this moment, do you need to feel validated (by yourself or others)? I get the sense that you are trying to hide from something by over-intellectualizing stuff. There is also a possibility that I might be projecting as I have spent a whole lot of time over-intellectualizing things so that I didn't have to face certain truths about myself.

Here are some quotes from the Dalai Lama:

“Whether one is rich or poor, educated or illiterate, religious or nonbelieving, man or woman, black, white, or brown, we are all the same. Physically, emotionally, and mentally, we are all equal. We all share basic needs for food, shelter, safety, and love. We all aspire to happiness and we all shun suffering. Each of us has hopes, worries, fears, and dreams. Each of us wants the best for our family and loved ones. We all experience pain when we suffer loss and joy when we achieve what we seek. On this fundamental level, religion, ethnicity, culture, and language make no difference.”

-  :)alai Lama XIV

“Every single being, even those who are hostile to us, is just as afraid of suffering as we are, and seeks happiness in the same way we do. Every person has the same right as we do to be happy and not to suffer. So let’s take care of others wholeheartedly, of both our friends and our enemies. This is the basis for true compassion.”

- Dalai Lama XIV

Thank you EaglesJuju,

You frame it all very well.

I appreciate that!

VOC,


I'm not saying you are unhealthy... .but am more wondering if just as in Maslow's hierarcy and the concept of self actualization is at the top of the pyramid... .if also, No need for validation, should be placed on top of it's own pyramid.  So... .Do you think of people not self actualized as unhealthy?  Probably not?   Actually... .I am trying to develop my understanding of this and seeking some organization of my thoughts for myself.

You make a good point about importance being that we are aware of where we are at. Right now I'm certainly needing external validation... .and can be working on some more internal validation to solidify things for me in my esteem and worth.  So anyway, not needing validation... .is just so far off for me atm, ... .even if it does exist.

I DO feel like I "need" an affirming environment. I prefer to have a level of contentment that I would not require this.

It all reminds me of another thread around here about needing external validation or esteem until a certain age to build a sense of self worth.  Then after a certain age the self worth cannot be affected as much by external esteem.  I wish I could remember that thread. 



I think you may have read my words out of order. It feels silly to tell myself each day that I am an ok person. Can't I just wake up feeling ok, stay that way all day, all week without validation?

My first thought at reading this was, "Man, those are some pretty high expectations." I can't think of anybody that I know that can wake up feeling okay and stay that way without some kind of validation (internal or external).

What is wrong with accepting that sometimes you need some kind of validation? Do you see needing validation as some kind of weakness?

In all of the threads that I have read here, I don't recall anybody ever saying that nobody needs validation. I seem to recall people saying things like, "If you can't get validation from a spouse, a parent, or some other pwBPD in your life, find alternate sources of validation whether that be friends, the forum, or from within." I am trying to understand how a person could get to a point where he/she would not need some kind of validation. I don't see that as realistic.

I don't want to share misinformation, which is why I refrained from sharing more on Lacan's views.  However, my understanding of his theory is that we are born "Real" and at some point we are affected by social interactions and illusions and symbols and give meaning to these things.  These social interactions and symbols are essential illusions and language helps us develop more illusions.

So this challenges the whole idea of Maslow.  Maslow seems to promote that it is only through growth and development to find a "true self" of a kind that he defines.  Whereas Lacan believes the opposite in a way.  That we are born with this "Real" self and through symbols and language and illusions that are built, we remove ourselves from this "real" self.

I also think it is a bit apples vs oranges and does not actually compare so well.

I have more Buddhist views, and the idea of Lacan's rang true for me vs Maslow.  They are both theories... .of which I feel I can come up with my own truth that works for me.  I used to aspire to Maslow's self actualization, however, it no longer rings true for me.

I am curious what the Dalai Lama does because of one of my original questions in my oringinal post:

Do some people NOT need validation?

Knowing this... .would have given me a simple: Yes.  And my question answered simply.

To understand what I perceive may be the capacity of our human minds, or driving forces is interesting to me.

I wondered if someone would tell me that they do not need validation.  Maybe people are walking around all the time not needing any validation either internal or external?  I think that would be an interesting thing to know, hence why I ask.

I like sharing our internal experiences. It is interesting to see what goes on in our minds, how we process things.  I find this fascinating! :)

Lol!  There is no judgement here!  I'm exploring, and wondering.  I say I "need" validation.  I seriously though don't.  I will not die without it.  It is my desire.  I like the idea of being free of desires and exploring that.  I wonder how to lessen my desire for validation. I wonder what that would feel like and look like.  When I imagine for myself a place of not needing validation in anyway... .it does feel like contentment.

Outgoing: To me, validation and empathy are gifts we give others - especially if we stay authentic (avoid false validation and empathy).

Philosopher Bertrand Russel, in Pursuit of Happiness, talks about happiness being, partially, a function of a validating environment. Bill collectors are generally not as happy as people who sing in a choir.

Great thread peeps, I'm getting here late but thought I'd interject... .

Validation means to make valid, and some of the synonyms for valid include authentic, good, credible, legitimate, solid, true, and well-founded, while some of the synonyms for validation include acceptance, affirmation, endorsement, recognition and approval.

So bottom line for me: validation means we matter, and we either feel that way because we say so, or because someone else says so, or both, depending.  And the alternative is to mean we don't matter, painful that, so there's the drive for validation.

Sometimes we are back on our heels and struggling, like when we are in or leave a relationship where we were at first idealized and then devalued, with our guard down, and at times like that we need external validation, need to be validated by someone else, because we don't currently have the ability to self-validate.  We also need empathy and compassion coming out of those relationships, but this thread is about validation.

And at other times we're on it, makin' it happen, top of the world, enjoying our lives, and at times like that it's easy to self-validate, and although we may get external validation at times like that and it's nice, we don't need it.

So for us social animals, surrounding ourselves with people who care about us is a resource we can use when we need external validation, as we are to them, and hopefully we don't all need it at the same time, luckily that doesn't usually happen.  People who are willing to lift us up when we're down adds security to our lives, just knowing they're there adds security.  Paul Simon sang I am a rock, I am an island because he was hurt and said screw it, I don't need people, a viewpoint I am very familiar with but not true, no man is an island and life is easier with support, even though human interaction gets messy sometimes.

Thank you guys for helping!

I don't want to be misunderstood.

I'm not saying validation is bad.  This isn't about good or bad.

I appreciate what so many of you expressed... .that validation is a natural part of social interactions and serves a vital role in our connectedness. 

I was trying to explore more if there is really something I can do ... .to not want it.  Sometimes my desire for validation feels like a burden to me.  I think having a lessened desire for validation could be more peaceful for me.

Anyway... .

(I wasn't originally thinking of a particular example)

However, an example:

Part of me wants to shout at my next T session:

Why did you not validate me and tell me I am not the crazy one?

Why didn't you frame what was happening so it made sense?

Why are you acting like some of this crap is normal? That feels invalidating!

I realize he will likely redirect things, not simply give me the validation I want.  He will instead challenge me to look inward.

I'm thinking of going in asking:

Hey, how can I let go of this need for validation that has me stuck? That I feel like transferring on you... lol!

I feel that I "shouldn't" "need" someone elses affirmation to feel ok.  However, this feeling feels very real to me.

Oh well... .

I'll dump it on him maybe.

I think what has lessened my desire for external validation is twofold.

On one hand, I think I have gotten a little better at validating myself. I can practice the validation tools that can be found in the lessons on myself to a certain degree.

On the other hand, it is working to create a validating environment for myself. It has been looking at who I interact with on a regular basis. Work, family, and friends have all been evaluated and questioned to see whether or not I am surrounding myself with people that tend to be positive and validating. It is odd for me because the person doesn't necessarily need to validate me. It is more about being positive and challenging me in the right ways.

Being better at validating myself came AFTER trying to create a more positive and validating environment for myself. Finding this site was instrumental in helping me along the way.


Why are you continuing to see this T? I think those are all very valid questions. If you think he will challenge you to look inward, would it be possible to look inward before the next session?


This is how I feel about phrases that include the word should:    

I say that because I have spent a lot of years beating myself up over what I should be doing or what I should be feeling. This feeling feels real to you because it IS real.

Think about how a kid checks in with his/her parent to see if everything is okay. After a while, the kid learns how to do it on his/her own without so much checking in. It is process. I look at the work that I have been doing as sort of reparenting myself. I am trying to give myself the things that I should have gotten when I was a kid. One of those things is the right kind of validation. The other is that I give myself permission to feel things without trying to talk myself out of it by telling myself that I should or shouldn't be feeling a particular way.

How is validation "affirmation" to you?

This is an interesting discussion, because growing up with a mother who split me constantly, by the time I was a teen, I came to reject both criticism and praise because on an emotional level, I didn't trust what was being said. Ot morphed into me not accepting compliments (didn't need them). Is that familiar, or is it something different?

This is what I am doing here... .all these questions. :)

Thank you VOC, you give some great suggestions for self validation!  Awesome!

Well... .it appears that validation is just a way/a tool for us to be told we are ok or to tell ourselves that we are ok.  Isn't that the same thing as an affirmation?  That the validation is a tool to get affirmation?

I'm with you Turkish, there is a moment I will never forget... .  A well meaning person came up to a group of me and some friends.  He decided to let us know we were doing excellent work.  I reacted.  I gave a mini rage explaining we were self sufficient and not dependent on his affirmations and observations... .or something like that.  My reaction to others offering compliments was often to be suspicious of manipulation that would follow.  I looked around me.  The shock on everyone's faces was just... .memorable.  It was as though I decapitated the poor fella.  I quickly realized what I had done... .and kinda did one of these faces:   oops, my bad, that dude is good.  I get it folks, lets now sew his poor head back on and carry on here.  Good guy!  We still touch bases, all is forgiven, he gets me.

(A compliment can be different than validation I think.  Validation is not always a compliment, and a compliment is not always validating)

I sometimes reacted in a similar manner, invalidating my complimentor!

Certainly compliments aren't always validating, like back-handed ones. If I react negatively to a valid comment, however, that's about me, and in the past, I realized I've done this. Like your story.

When my kids are throwing tantrums (especially my son), I discipline them strongly, depending upon the incident. My point isn't to make them feel good, but they need to feel heard. Not the invalidating comments their uBPD mom sometimes makes, "you can't cry about that!" This is when they trigger her. I'm still learning to acknowledge the kids' feelings, but not approving or enabling un acceptable behaviors. Validating is affirming that I hear them, even if I disagree with them. To them, it probably doesn't feel positive.

If I hijack your thread to talk about my week (it sucked), I'm invalidating you. Would you have a right to be angry? Certainly! Do you need me to not hijack your thread to survive? No. You don't need my validation (I'm just some anonymous voice on the internet), but me invalidating you like that wouldn't be acceptable, and that's acceptable.

So I constructed a story that really helps me organize my thinking on this... .it makes sense to me now this way:

Imagine the "true/real self" as a boat.  A boat in the water with nothing to see around it on all sides except water.  Our "other self" is navigating on the boat.  ( I am making this up... .so feel free to tell me labels for these thoughts already are defined)

So validation we get from other people is like seeing something on the horizon.

When we feel lost, we  (our other self) appreciates seeing a buoy, to help remind us where we are and to orient ourself, and to continue on.

When we are feeling very lost, we may prefer to see a tree, a clearer indicator of our position in the water.  Yet when we are feeling even more lost, we may prefer to see the shore on the horizon.

External validation, can be the buoy, tree or horizon.  More validation, helps us feel secure, know "we are ok" and helps orient ourself to our surroundings and can be symbolically thought of as a bouy, tree, or shore.

If we are a more experienced boater person, then we can navigate ok with internal cues such as a compass and timing direction, radar, etc. This is self validation.  (Radar is more both self and external though)

The "Feeling lost", and the "seeking affirmation/validation" of our position did not actually change our self.  If you remember, our self was symbolically represented as a boat.  The boat was, in reality, fine the whole time.  It was completely intact in this story, not a hole, not a broken piece of it came into the story I described. Not a thing was ever "wrong" with it.

In this way, the boat was always, just a boat.  The boat did not "need" the tree to just be a boat.  The boat was doing a fine job just "being" and functioning as a boat the entire time.  It did not change form when we saw the tree.  

I think there are two separate selfs I am speaking of, but was trying to contain them as one.  Hence... .lots of confusion.

Thanks for helping me struggle my way through this!

ill put in my 2 cents.

There is no "real self," in the sense we describe here the part of ourselves we seek to know is perceived as a lack.  The ego or "I," is a false self.  So, validation become about whether we garner attention and recognition to identify our selves with or without a lack. The I without the lack known in Lacanian terms as the Ideal- I or ideal ego is a narcissistic phantasy that is impossible to achieve, so if someone is presenting themselves as that to be identified as the I or the I they are striving for they are running away from or denying the lack that is inherent to the human condition. It begs the question "who is left holding the bag?" or who is it they use as a container to contain their own  lack they are in denial of?  Validation can come in the form of recognizing others as who we want them to be to for us to validate the idea of ourselves we want to identify with. So far I have only mentioned forms of narcissitic empathy. Their is also validation in the form of recognizing the inherent value of others merely because they exist, to quote the smiths that "[they] are human and need to belong just like everyone else does."  I would like to take it a step further though, "[They] are [conscious and belong] just like [everything] else does."

I would say validation is more like a fish that jumps into our validation boat (i like it!). It stays with us and ensures on staying on course while it lasts. The fish could be big or small. How we decide to eat it can be upto us, or we can even throw it back in if we're not hungry (self-validated and not needing of outside sources). Or like you say a competent sailor

I imagine the buoys for me for me are personal goals and dreams I want to achieve.

Or imagine a poorly made boat with lots of holes and the boat is filling up. Yes the boat is and always has been a boat but you're sinking fast into the ocean (depression or whatever). You just want to continue on with your destination but are wallowing. Maybe you discover how to properly patch the holes and are satisfied at how you're back on course. As you continue on, you're proud of your journey... .etc


this is pretty meta for a sunday morning, thanks for getting me to think about it!

Thank you Blimblam,

You’re the one that got me stuck on Lacan a while back!  I attended a Buddhism class today and the instructor was teaching about the Buddhist Nature, and the “self” (meaning false created self)  I actually thought it was all straight from Lacan’s, I raised my hand and asked as much, lol!  No one in the whole class had a clue…I swore the guy was channeling Lacan!  He was talking about symbolic/illusions, the “I,” etc and that babies have the Buddha Nature originally until affected by interacting.

Reading this paragraph by you, is the first time what you say made sense to me on the first go without rereading it ten times.  Thank you!

I have to say though…

I wish I could ask someone... .

He talked about three stages…

1) How in ignorance, we believe everything to be real that is not real

2) However, when we wake up some, we begin to see that the mountain and water is an illusion and not actually really a mountain and really water.  They are constructs, symbols.  

3) However, when we are awake and experiencing Real (minus the false self,) we can again see the mountain as a mountain again, and things can maintain being viewed as real, while them not actually being real... .because now we understand that they are illusion.  This sounds like that last sentence of yours about everything belonging.



So here is where I’m confused... .  

With my cPTSD…I spent my childhood questioning the reality of that mountain and spent so much time never trusting that it was ever real to begin with.  I feel like I was born into a crazy environment with so much chaos and changing realities, that I never actually believed in that mountain.  I actually wondered if there was a room behind a closed door, if I would wake up from a nightmare I’m in, if I was actually a Barbie doll in someone else’s game…etc.  I thought to myself: "Surely life couldn't be so cruel and punishing to a child? How can any of this actually be real?"

So what... . I skipped the first stage?  So if the imaginary world was never considered “real” to me to begin with   …WTH?  

Can you please help with this?

Neveragainthanks,

Thanks for the additional perspective!  I'm quite enjoying this thread and all the different ways of looking at it. :)

It feels like fun... .  Like the scene in the Matrix where you get a 360 view of an event from every angle that exists.  _{(Well... .almost.  There wasn't an aerial, or bottom up view)}

the narcissitic phantasy I refer to is the "Ideal-ego" the Ideal- I.  So when someone starts talking about becoming the best version of themselves bla bla and people validate that idea they validate a narcissistic phantasy that the person can never achieve. So when that person compares themselves to that Ideal-I they want to become they feel a lack in comparison to as if they are not enough.  What I usually observe is the people on the path to becoming the best version of themselves "ideal-I" will not want to contain that lack because they would feel anxiety and shame and such so the project it onto some third party, and label them something like the "negative people," and start talking about getting the negative people out of your life blah blah, or crazy plans to discipline the negative people in some insane totalitarian discourse which is the hugest  red-flag of all in my opinion.

It's not that someone pursuing the ideal-I is bad or the "evil narcissist," it is just merely they are looking to attach to something larger than them to protect them from the pain they are avoiding. The Ideal-I or someone they view as a mentor that they project the Ideal-I onto provides them with a sort of barrier from experiencing that part of themselves that is extremely hurt and afraid.

Thank you!

I can finally read your words and it does not feel like translating Greek to me any longer!  (for this thread at least)

I get all that easily now.   What next?

Any ideas on my part on this:

I don't know. you will have to ask the person who instructed you in that discourse to explain it further.

From an attachment theory perspective, we have mirroring needs to be met over the course of our development. Now the level of those needs may vary from individual to individual, but if they are not met it will manifest as the various disorders  and such. It will also present itself in a subject with various attachment styles. It is theorized that someone who experiences ptsd in life is reopening specific wounds that are related to a lack of mirroring early on in their development and they are re-experiencing that earlier trauma.

I have wondered about me... .and still do wonder... .at times.

I am certain I do not have a PD.  I am also certain... .based on my lack of attachment... .I should!

I'm baffled about this.

I had RAD as an infant.  That can progress into ASPD.

How the heck did I not get a PD?

My sister has BPD.

I'll google attachment theories and such... .  maybe I formed a health fantasy world to attach to that substituted? lol

Maybe there was an attachment drive in infancy that I cannot recall?  Not likely... .as I said... .I had RAD... .did not respond to caregivers.  Maybe it occurred before the RAD set in.  I was a quiet, withdrawn, emotionally sensitive child.

So wierd!

(Still on the topic of validation tho... .as now I need some!  )

I came across this article called 5 Ways to Validate Yourself and thought of this thread:

www.tinybuddha.com/blog/5-ways-to-validate-be-part-of-your-support-system/

*mod*

The topic of discussion has reached it's post limit and is now locked. Thanks.