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My son has only hit me once, but he is always threatening me when he doesn't get his way. He wanted something on Sunday. I reminded him that it was my day off. He came over to my apartment and yelled and screamed. Then he pulled one of his old tricks ands threatened to beat up the next person who messed with him and he didn't care if he went to jail.

To keep my son calm I usually let him vent until he is exhausted. Deborah Evans in her book The Verbally Abusive Relationship has a chapter about men addicted to anger who blow up every so often to let off steam. It is like a fix to them.

The problem is that I was angry and told him I would not bail him out of jail. He stood in front of me and lifted his leg to kick me. Then he said, "You never know when to shut up." So I shut up. He left. I hid in the closet for some time.

Now I am fantasizing about a restraining order, but I am afraid he will come hurt me anyway. Has anybody gotten a restraining order on a violent child 6'6" 250 lbs? I was a domestic violence counselor years ago and I know what happens when women start to stand up for themselves. It is not a joke. It is dangerous.

I guess I have to come to terms with my fear of putting him in jail. Because I have been in jail, so I project that nightmare on to him. The the codependency kicks in. But maybe I should face my fear and do it. Opinions please.

:'(

Hi Butterfly Girl,

I'm so sorry that you were scared by your son. 

In moments of dysregulation your son most likely will not consider the ramifications of violating a restraining order. 

Do you think it would be beneficial to set specific boundaries during a time of calm about him coming over?

Maybe something like:  I want to be here for you as a source of support when you are in need of reassurance. I know it is hard for you to delay communicating with me when you are feeling stressed and anxious.  I want you to call in advance and come here only with my consent.  If you don't call first or ok it with me I will not answer the door.

Thoughts?

Thank you for replying. I appreciate the support. The boundaries you mention are good. They are already in place. He is only allowed to come over to pick up something like his mail, but if I do anything to annoy him when he comes, he gets verbally abusive. I think I am going to leave his mail in my mail box and give him a key so he does not have to come in the apartment. I recognize my part. Once he is here he wants to visit and I don't. That makes him feel rejected and he gets angry. I guess I just need to work harder on not showing my aversion to him.

You have a boundary that Sunday is a no contact day and then you interact with him.  This boundary needs defending.

Do you need to work harder on not having an aversion to him or not showing it?

He is hypersensitive so "not showing it" will most likely not work.

What aversions do you have?

Tough question... .I know.

lbj

I did defend the boundary. This is why I was so angry at him which is one of his triggers. After weeks of accepting in a nice way my day off boundary he calls me at 7 in the morning. I did not answer the phone. He called my husband and I told him not to answer. This triggered his rage and he emailed me that he was coming in 20 minutes. He has a key. I need to work up the courage to take the key away.

The projection behind this is simple. He wanted a blanket that I used to keep in my possession. He was lonely and it was like his childhood coping toy. He wanted it really bad when I asked him to come the next day he refused. I had given it away and this triggered the feeling that I do not care. This perceived rejection took hold of him. I think he is addicted to the "ideal" mother and I don't measure up. I did this to my mom according to my therapist. I guess what goes around comes around.

Do you really think trying to hide my disdain for him is a waste of time? Expand on this please.

I am in a trap. Standing up for myself does not impress him, it triggers his BPD because he perceives it as rejection. He also has narcissistic tendencies and can't deal with not getting his way. So I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Can I get some advice about how to handle him. I have tried so many techniques but when he is in a rage nothing works. SET only works sometimes.

It depresses me after periodic scenes like this.

A restraining order for Sunday?

In the context of value-boundaries - https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries - if you had a do-over - what is the value, what is the boundary and how should that be communicated and how should it be managed?

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but when my husband and I set boundaries for our daughter and really kept to them (not enabled, or was wishy-washy), our daughter was worse instead of better.  It was as though she needed to test if this time we were really going to do what we said.  We had previously had a talk with her in a calm time about the boundaries and the consequences of breaking those boundaries and finally we were ready to stick to them.  Like I said, it was worse at first, but we stuck to our plan and she got better and so did we.  It is a rough ride we are on with our loved ones, and the only thing we can truly control is ourselves.  I have been reading all of your posts and I can see the growth you are making within yourself.  Know that you are not alone---keep calm and carry on.

I am afraid of my son and don't want to be in the same room. The restraining order is just a tool for that end whether it be real or imaginary.

Standing up for yourself is tricky when the person you are standing up to is violent. This is how Nicole Brown Simpson got killed. OJ told her to stop seeing other men even though they were divorced. She refused. She got a restraining order. She stood up for herself. She defended her boundary. He then killed her.

This is why my restraining order against my son is just a fantasy. I am afraid to stand up for myself. That is the bottom line.

Addendum . . . it sounds like we are married doesn't it. How sick is that.

So what value based boundaries do you believe will keep you safe and be willing to enforce consistently?

Can you state them firmly and gently to your son?

What will you do if he violates these boundaries? 

I want to say no without all hell breaking lose.


Yes, I do so as often as I can. It works in the short term.


I am powerless. His willingness to hurt me means he has the trump card because I am too codependent to put him in jail.

I don't think there is a solution to this until I am willing to put him out of my life. I go all the way to Switzerland to get away. Maybe I will stay there this time I go in September.

I  need to switch gear and turn to God. There are good days and bad. I pray and pray about this. God will answer me eventually. I know it.

The key to this is taking small and healthy steps in the right direction Butterfly Girl.

If you are really that afraid of him what is keeping you from changing the locks?

If he comes over and is already in your home and he becomes threatening it is very reasonable to ask him to leave and give you some space.  Making it more about you than him:  "I'm feeling upset and need some space to calm myself right now.  It's best to drop it and pick this subject up another time, please go now."

What would a pre set boundary and the defense of it look like to you?   

 

  lbj

I don't want to sound ungrateful for the advice, but it seems like you have never dealt with violence before. If I changed the locks, my son would break down the door as he has in the past. Boundaries have been set. Sometimes he respects them but when he is in a Borderline rage they mean nothing.

I have to smile when you say, "ask him to leave." When he is raging he does nothing I ask. I have to be willing to call the police. But even then he will resist the police and end up in jail. He fears nothing when he is raging. He has faced down cops, men with guns, muggers, etc. Nothing I say matters. I must shut up and be still until he leaves of his own accord. I have lost every ounce of power with him.

As I mentioned before, this is a situation of elder abuse and domestic violence. Even if I put him in jail he will come after me when he gets out. His father got out of jail and came home. I said I wanted a divorce. He locked the door and put a knife to my throat and kept me tied up for three days beating me. I finally pretended that I would not leave and he calmed down. It was only when he left me that I was safe. The good news is that this only happens once in awhile. I have a friend who had 8 sons, 5l borderlines. She moved away and did not tell them where she was. I fantasize about this a lot.

I do appreciate you guys trying to help me, but I created this situation and I have to live with it. When he is calm we do make some progress. But a violent Borderline is really incurable from what I have read. Most of them are in prison. K has been arrested 7 time and is not afraid of jail.

I am going to stop venting about this and make progress where I can. I cannot go to a shelter because I am my sick sister's caregiver. I do have faith that someday he will seek help for his disorder and learn how to deflate his rage.

When he was 4 they put him in a crib with a top that looked like a cage. He made himself sick with crying. Nobody could get him to stop crying. This is when the borderline split occurred and he opted to rage at me and  the circumstances. I am his scapegoat. But there is always hope.

On the contrary, I have had to deal with violence and threats of violence.  I have strong boundaries in place to protect myself and wasn't afraid to defend them.


Having the communication skills and tools to head off a rage is better than cleaning up the mess afterwards.


Take your power back.  You gave it away you can take it back.


You have been through trauma and need to heal.  Being a victim of violence past, present or future is not "something you have to live with".

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. As  long as he is my son, and I am unwilling to incarcerate him, I have to live with this.

I did not mean to challenge you. I am happy for you. But I have not enjoyed the success you have. You make me feel like a failure. Maybe I just need to accept this and stop asking for help until I am ready to go all the way with defending my boundaries. This means being willing to call the police when he is towering over me ready to hit me.

I live for the good days. He called as if nothing had happened and said he had run out of gas. I gave him seven dollars and he thanked me. I don't know what would have happened if I had said no. I was tired and did not want to argue or listen to him berate me. God is going to help me eventually. I know this. Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it.

Hi Butterfly Girl


In your other thread lbjnltx mentioned mindfulness to you. I think the following part of the mindfulness article applies to what you say here:


Can you see that no matter what anyone says to you, it is only what we say to ourselves that can make us feel like a failure? Can you identify the negative thoughts that lead you to label yourself this way?


There are various ways to enforce your boundaries. if you haven't already, I encourage you to take a look at these resources:

Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries)

Examples of boundaries (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0)

In the workshop 'examples of boundaries' various ways are illustrated for enforcing a boundary.


Perhaps it can help you to look at S.E.T. within the broader framework of D.E.A.R.M.A.N. Are you familiar with this technique? The acronym stands for: Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Mindfully (keep your focus), Appear (confident) and Negotiate. Here are some excerpts from our workshop about D.E.A.R.M.A.N.:


You can find the workshop about D.E.A.R.M.A.N. here: COMMUNICATION: D.E.A.R.M.A.N. technique (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0)

Take care

I like this. We are as happy as we choose to be according to Abraham Lincoln. When people or circumstances trigger irrelevant emotions in me it is up to me to disengage, choose more appropriate thoughts which in turn give birth to more appropriate emotions. I project and lot and have to work hard to not give life to triggered feelings. They are simply irrelevant. I know they are from a part of the brain called the amygdala [reptilian brain] and not my neo-cortex [thinking brain]. Hard work but doable. I commend Dr. Goleman for teaching me this. Thanks for the reminder.

I had a good day today on the phone with my son. There is an old expression: "Now there goes a child who only a mother can love." I guess deep down I feel like no matter how many people reject my son [a lot] at least he has God and me. Perhaps I need to re-think this. I am not sure.

Namaste

Those are the days that give us hope.  

I think you have to work out where your bottom line is. And only you can know that. Is it when he hits you and you end up in hospital? Is it when you become so scared of him that you have to put real physical permanent miles between you and him?

And I'm not saying this with great respect, I'm genuinely asking you to think about where you are prepared to draw the line.

For me with my son it was when he threatened to send his 'friends' around to my house because they wouldn't like the way he was being treated. That was enough of an incentive to make me tell him to leave because I would not allow him to terrorize me, my husband and my other children in my own home. That was my boundary so I asked him to leave and told him I would call the police if he didn't.

I'm not saying this will work for you, but you need to decide where your personal limit is and if you know in your heart he will physically hurt you-how much hurt are you prepared to take?

I send you much sympathy in this horrible situation.

Butterfly

I am so sorry you are in a violent relationship with your BPD son.  I too have been where you are.

You do not have to live this way.  You are not responsible for his behavior and threats.  His mental illness is.  He may be manipulating you, but the fear you feel is very real.  :)o not take his threats lightly, because there is no telling what he is capable of. That in itself is a tool to control you.

Set hard boundaries, and if he disrespects them and threatens to harm you, call the police. He needs to understand that you WILL call and you must do it.  They will help you to document this behavior, and if he ends up in jail ... .so be it. Stop collecting his mail. This would eliminate one excuse he is using to interact with you, and do not give him a key to your mailbox or your home. Change the locks if need be.  You have every right to do that.

Contact a domestic violence center. You need to document what is going on and you also need someone to support you and give you on-going advice.  You mentioned an abusive husband.  Was he your son's father?  This may play an important role in his behavior and yours.  It is time to break the cycle.

You may want to tell your son by phone that your relationship is not working, and you are done tolerating the way he treats you.  Until he can behave in a  respectful manner, you will distance yourself from him.  Speak your mind and then hang up.  :)o not give him the opportunity to argue, threaten, or demean you, and do not attempt to do this in person. Put a plan in place to have a safe space to go quickly and ask a neighbor or friend to check on you if your son shows up unannounced.

While your son has BPD and becomes dysregulated, you must intervene, or it will never end.  Your quality of life suffers because of his violent behavior, and it is unhealthy physically an emotionally.

Again, you do have choices.  Change will require you to be very strong and determined while keeping a watchful eye on your own safety and wellbeing.  

You can do this.

These last two posts were really helpful because they addressed things I could do when he will not respect my boundaries. I set them all the time. I defend them all the time. He is like a hurricane. 6'6", 250 lbs. Strong enough to pick me up and throw me on the couch.


John Bradshaw, in his book Family Secrets, said we have a collective unconscious and actually inherit cellular memory from past generations. This has proved true for me in an experience with my mom [I repeated her behavior without knowing anything about what she had done.] It is also true of my son and his father. He is a clone of his father. He looks like him. He acts like him. He thinks like him. When he demands money and I say "no" his father beat me. When I say no to my son he berates and threatens to beat me.

My bottom line is calling the police. I have to be willing to do this despite the consequences. I read in the paper about rejected men getting out of jail and coming back to kill the one who rejected them. This happened when my son's father got out of jail. I talked about this in an earlier post. When I got out of the hospital he stalked me by crashing through the door twice a week. I stopped fixing it. It ended when he found another woman/victim. K was a baby at the time. He witnessed all this.



I am going to get strong and do what I have to do despite the risk. As the writer said, "Feel the fear and do it anyway."



Yesterday was good. Today I got a demand for gas money. I am deleting all his hate emails. Sometimes I wonder  if it is more than BPD and maybe multiple personality disorder. He can be so nice when he wants to. It just never lasts.

Thanks for the support

Butterfly

I just had another thought.  It sounds to me as if you would qualify for an investigation into your situation as a vulnerable adult.  There should be an agency locally that you can report your son to. Of course, documentation would be key.

Do you have friends, neighbors, or any other family who are aware of what is going on and would be willing to help? Once involved, they have the authority to keep your son away from you as they work closely with law enforcement.

The Vulnerable Adult Protection Agency has been created to protect people like you who live in fear and are being exploited by others.

I am still winding down after the big fight with my son. He came yesterday to get his mail and I told him I was going to stay in the bedroom with the door closed. He agreed to this boundary.

I have a question. K's biggest trigger for his rage is perceived rejection. I can't help his perception. But it is true that I reject him. I don't like him and I don't want to be around him. He has contributed to my PTSD. Since I know this is a trigger for him, should I try harder to give him some of my time. Shall I fake it for the sake of his healing. I know that this is only a band-aid. Ultimately he needs to love himself before he will feel whole. But as his mother do I have a role in trying to make him feel loved. I have been rejecting him his whole life. I never wanted kids but was raped by his father. So do you all think I could do more to solve the problem of his rage?

Gee, Butterfly Girl, that's a very traumatic background to your son's birth, and I can see how it makes it very hard for you to deal with him... .And I can also see how the reverberations of that event have caused his troubles, besides. I'm so sorry for what you are both going through 


I think that MammaMia has some great ideas here, and I would encourage you to check into them... .And maybe even contacting your County's Social Service Agency or some other local, non-police, resources that could offer advice and protection?

Have you had the chance to check out this link yet: Safety First (https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety_first.pdf)? This next one would also be something you would find beneficial: TOOLS: Domestic Violence Against Women (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0). Taking care of your safety is really important, and if you don't feel comfortable calling the police when your son dysregulates, there are tips at those links that can give you other options.

In the Safety First article, there is information on "Assessing and Facing Risks" and "Assessing You Current Safety Level" and so much more that I highly recommend that you take some time and check it out.


Your question is very interesting to me... .On the one hand, his perception of reality is his alone, and subject to what he sees and feels around him. On the other hand, what he is seeing and feeling is actually validated by you because of your own traumatized past and PTSD feelings.

It sounds perfectly understandable to me that you reject a child you never wanted, and conceived in a traumatic event. And also understandable to me that this situation has caused your son's own dysregulations and troubles. You are correct that he needs to love himself before he feels whole; I'm not too sure how easy that would be if he feels that he isn't loved by his Mom, after feeling rejected by her his whole life... .

May I suggest one more link for you to check out? How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574) I had been struggling with figuring out how to understand and change my relationship with my Daughter-In-Law (who I believe has BPD traits, at least). This Workshop helped me get to the point where I could climb out of my own wounded feelings surrounding her treatment of me, and to understand how/what she was feeling in order to change the dynamics of our relationship. She has never been violent with me, but has had numerous outbursts that have confused and hurt me, in the past; always directed at me when she was upset, angry, hurt, etc.

That Workshop absolutely changed the way I understand and deal with her, and our relationship has been friendly and non-turbulent ever since I put into practice what I learned. That link is something else I would like you to consider checking out, Butterfly Girl... .I'm so sorry for what you are going through, and hope the links I have given you can help in some way 

Butterfly

Have you and your son ever attempted joint therapy/family counseling?  I am wondering if there is even a glimmer of hope he might be willing to do something like this.

Your situation is very difficult and may benefit from professional involvement to discuss both sides of the issues.

Butterfly,

While you mull over all the possible solutions, have you ever considered meeting your son in a public place?  Even temporarily?

Pick a spot, buy him a cup of coffee, take care of what you need to, and you each go your own way after.

You shouldn't be afraid in your own home.

I do think that MammaMia and Mom_On_Eggshells have some very good, practical ideas here for you  *)

Thank you all for the support. I have tried all this and it all works sometimes. It is worth trying again.

What I am struggling with now is a concept I learned in AA. "Fake it till you make it." Should I try harder to make him feel loved or is it too late for that. I really think if he had a different personality I could have loved him despite the circumstances of his birth. But so much of the time he is just plain obnoxious: has to be right; controlling, long winded, ego centric. At the same time he will go out and buy you groceries if you are hungry. Codependent Borderline is a complicated combination.

The last few days have been peaceful. I am grateful and am going to live in the NOW as Eckhart Tolle suggests in the Power of Now.

Namaste

Butterfly

Do not pursue him.  You are setting yourself up for rejection, which is exactly what he wants. Do not allow him to keep "kicking you in the head".  When he starts, walk away and do not look back.

PwBPD enjoy making others jump through their emotional hoops.  So, do not play the game.  They relish the reactions they get ... .it is all about power.

When confronted do not let him bait you into an argument.  No reaction from you speaks louder than anything you could say.

AA is a wonderful group, but mental illness is not the same as addiction.  Addiction is often a component of BPD, but it is so much more complex.  AA rules do not always work with this disorder.

Remember ... .it takes two people to make a relationship.  You do not have to do all the work.

Thank you

I just got an email asking me if I had "money for food and gas." At least he asked.

I sent him a "vacation response" saying I was out of the office until Monday morning.

As I write this he is calling. I did not answer the phone.

I have asked him not to contact me on Sundays.

From past experience he is raging right now. I am nervous but determined. I will not answer the door if he comes over.

Pray for me.

He sent a second email saying his stomach does not understand my email. I sent another "I'm on vacation" email. I am frightened to death. This is when I break down and feel either frightened or sorry for him for being hungry. I am going to do nothing but wait and see. I can do this. I can do this. My husband is home now for moral support. I can do this.

Butterfly girl:   I am so sorry you are having these difficulties.  My son was verbally abusive to me all through highschool and I felt my husband didn't even stand up for me, which was really out of context for him.  We have seven children and he would have never let any of the other children abuse me like our son did.  Anyway that is here nor there, what I was thinking, you said you were a domestic violence counselor at one time?  Could you reach out to a domestic violent group and get support and help to stay strong and deal with your fears better.

Isnt that what they do on a regular basis?  I don't think it matters whether it is your husband or your son.  Violence is violence, abuse is abuse.  You are not to blame.  Kelti

He left two text messages and two more emails. He is threatening to shoplift groceries. I am doing nothing but praying for this to pass.

You say . . .


They are never available on the weekends and you have to be careful what you say or they call the police whether you want them to or not.

Thank God for this board. If I am using up more than my share of time or space, let me know. Thanks. I will stop now and check in tomorrow . . .

Butterfly

Would your husband talk to your son and tell him to leave you alone?

He should also tell him if he steals groceries, you will not be bailing him out of jail. 

How old is your son?  I do not recall seeing his age.  Perhaps I missed it.

He finally backed down and did not call me until my day off was over. He wanted money for medication, health insurance, food and gas. I don't really like talking to him so usually I say things like "get to your point," or "why do you call me so often." This, of course, is perceived as rejection and he gets triggered. While I hate faking it it, I did and listened for a few moments as he vented and asked for my advice. I said I had no money. He said ok and we hung up. Now the guilt kicks in. I guess if I really want to diffuse this situation I have to give him some attention. It is better than the fighting. Am I wrong?

Butterfly

He is asking for a lot of money, and you can't do this forever.  If he is not able to work, perhaps he should look into medical and financial assistance. 

PwBPD just do not get how their constant demands wear us down.  You listened and that is most likely what he wanted. Stop beating yourself up. 

My son is 44. He works and then quits or gets fired. Due to arrest record for disturbing the peace it is hard for him to get job. He is brilliant and has a MBA so he taught himself to do paralegal work and is also a real estate broker. Self-employed is his only hope due to personality. He recently won a big case and says he will not need money much longer. Since money equals love for him I expect he will always want my help. I gave his $25 for food and thanks to you guys I am not going to feel guilty. Namaste. Good day so far.