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This week he drops the bomb that he's physically afraid of me. He's crazy. That's it. I just said it. He's pure crazy. I've been the one who had bruises for three years, I've never physically hurt him, yet he says this in MC? I'm enraged, I'm shocked, and I'm hurt.

What is wrong with this man? I took him back knowing he has a PD, I've stood by him, he cheated, I forgave, now he's going to play the victim? No wonder his daughter does this. It's like reality isn't a factor, at all.

I'm just at a loss for words right now, and I'm really hurting. Oh, and he also is clearly still blaming me for his having missed his daughter's baby shower way back. We'd offered to host a shower for our side of the family, she refused, stating we WERE going to be around her (crazy) Mother, yet she let her husband host a "his side" of the family shower. I've become scapegoat in that with BPDh too. We made the agreement together, yet now he wants to blame ME.

I'm just feeling sick like I've been gut punched. Again.

This kind of thing really sucks, but it comes up on this board quite often.

I am very curious about how this came up and how the therapist processed this fear he has with him and with both of you. 

Good therapy, in my opinion, allows for both people to take the floor and share their deepest concerns or fears.  The therapist coaches both the speaker and the listener, but especially the listener... .in how to 'hold on to themselves' and stay detached and curious even when really tuff stuff ... .or even "untrue" material ... .is brought up or shared.  The caveat being, a person may 'feel' something, even if it is not factually or even historically true, so just hang in there, and get to the feeling... .don't worry about the facts or in defending yourself.  It's not a courtroom, it's therapy.   It's not about facts in this case... .can you hold onto yourself in the face of another person's perceptions that are so markedly different than yours?  That's the focus of a lot of couples therapy.

However, I don't know what kind of therapy you are doing. 

Did you get the sense he really feels this way... .even if untrue (feelings are facts thinking?) or... .did you get a sense that he is being frankly manipulative or even intentionally trying to provoke you into a reaction that he can then point to and say... .see, she's scary? 

How did this go over all?  Did the therapist help contain things?  How did the session end?

I feel T ended somewhat badly. BPDh brought up something not factual, right near the end of T, and I basically called him a liar. Not a great move on my part, but I'm tired of the lies. I feel they are lie, not just misconceptions or differing viewpoints on his part. He always seems out to try to smear me to our MC. It's like a bash fest lately. I own my actions, so I'm not sure what he hopes to gain?

The T didn't really do what you stated, and I fell into the trap of defending myself. Dumb of me. BPDh is painting me with the brush from his past. His ex was physical with him, so he thinks I will be. He says it might escalate. I've had so many bruises from him, and if I haven't ever given back what I got, why would I now? He always justifies all the times he's been physical with me also. I'm over it, have forgiven him, and don't consider him a wife beater, but he's going to act scared of me? I guess so.

This was all brought up in our MC. BPDh is also in weekly DBT, and still sees his original T, but now only once a month. He also sees his psychiatrist pretty frequently.

I wish the session had ended better, and I actually addresses some of it with BPDh when we got home. He defended the whole "I'm scared for both of us" statement. He says he's afraid I'll do something to set him off and he might hurt me, or he'd hurt me and I'd hurt him back. I have never once done so. Maybe I need to be worried of the direction HIS thoughts are going?

could this be projection of an issue he cant deal with ?

I have no advice, but sympathy. I'm right there with you. Hugs.

 

He is a victim of his disordered thinking. I was falsely accused by my BPDh, he told the police that it was ME who gave him the bruises and cuts, when actually , 2 people body slammed him up against the piano to get him off of me so I could run! When I told him that false reporting is a felony offense, he recanted and told the police he was wrong! This is not crazy, it's malignant narcissism, pure evil in my opinion!

I also wonder if he knows how hard he is pushing you. Somebody that is being pushed as hard as he is pushing you is bound to snap at some point. I think you would have to be a saint or some kind of robot to put up with so much without snapping at some point. What that snapping looks like is anybody's guess. In another thread, it was brought up that he might be toying with you to get a response. He could be scared of what you will do when you have finally had enough of his crap.

At least that is a possibility. . .my husband has acted scared of me a time or two. Instead of arguing about his perception, I have used it to my advantage. "You have good reason to be scared of me. If you don't knock off the crap, I will find the resources to divorce you and make your life miserable." I know that isn't a nice thing to say. I see no point in arguing with a perception that is completely friggin' bogus. It is quite entertaining when I validate that I am mean and scary and horrible. Not only do I validate it, I agree with it completely. Before it is all said and done, he ends up changing his tune completely. People are going to think what they want. Arguing with them or getting upset with them does no good.

I think you need to really focus on keeping yourself safe and think clearly and wisely about this.

I work in DV every day, and I am scared for both of you, too.  I think people have the impression that DV is always just one crazy partner ambushing their unsuspecting totally grounded and totally healthy partner out of the blue and beating them up.  Actually, more typically, DV is about TWO people in an ongoing high conflict relationship that is already unhealthy long before anyone gets hit... .and it's where anger is constantly bubbling at the surface... .where there is a mental illness or addictions going on, and where there is impulsivity and tit-for-tat dynamics going on.  It just takes a spark in that kind of environment and things can escalate very quickly. THAT is how most DV looks.  The woman often gets injured more because she is smaller, but women can and do HIT first, and many women push the envelop with men who are clearly either at the end of their rope, or they keep involving themselves in high conflict drama with men who have a history of anger management leading to physical altercations and before you know it, things are getting physical.  So, I agree with him in his statement about being worried for both of you.  You are involved in a high conflict relationship with a man who was involved in this kind of thing in the past.  He has hit you in the past?   He points to a relationship where his wife use to batter him? Do not assume he had no part in that. They both created that sick relationship and it took time to brew.  I wonder in what ways mental illness, anger, resentment and impulsivity played-out in that relationship?  I can almost guarantee you, that it was the 'brew' they created together and stayed stuck in that led to violence.  This is real and it needs to be taken seriously.  

I don't know why he is bringing this up all of a sudden. Did something happen recently that might account for why he is expresisng concern about this right now?  You have been setting boundaries around some issues.  The pictures, the car.  Why is this coming up for him just now do you think?    Did the therapist ask that question or questions like that... .or assess for safety?

Hi CB,

I just want to reinforce the importance of what MayBeSo wrote in her post. My take is that your h is giving you important information about how he feels, whether or not he is crazy doesn't make it any less real for him and doesn't mean you should ignore it.  His thoughts may also be disordered, but his fear is still real.

My h when he was at his most dysregulated said that he was scared of me. He barricaded himself in our bedroom because of this fear, I believed him, he eventually ended up admitted to hospital. I'm not saying my situation is the same, there had been no physical violence between us, or in his history, but how my husband felt no matter how dysregulated he became or how distorted his view of things became, provided me with important information about his mind set/mental state. I used his feelings to help inform my behaviour so as not to escalate things between us. It wasn't easy, and yes the onus was on me to change my behaviour and my responses and not enter into tit for tat arguments and displays of acting out.

It sounds from your posts that your relationship is in a constant state of conflict and has the potential for flash points of extreme behaviours from you both. Is this an accurate picture?

What can you do to step away from the potential for further conflict ?

What do you and your husband enjoy together where neither of you get triggered?

What outside support/interests do you have ? What do you enjoy doing just for you?

I do not feel the extreme behaviors are coming from ME at all. I think it's because he can sense I've had it with his crazymaking and blame. I did dump kitty litter on the bed last time he said something heinous, and I flung some at him, but he was in no way hurt by this, and I have no history of hitting or attacking partners, ever. He actually even said last night that he pushed/grabbed me and that was why I flung some at him. I fully realize this was not cool, and I fully take responsibility for it. I've actually tried everything else I can think of: walking away, telling him exactly which things he says that do damage, setting a boundary around it, NONE of it has worked. I thought if I did something outrageous, he'd know I was fed up, and maybe he'd think twice next time. I know he says these exact things because they hurt me. It's deliberate. It wasn't worth it anyway as I had all the cleanup, but I do think he realized he'd pushed ME too far. Even then though, I didn't, and wouldn't hurt him, or anyone. It's just not in my nature.

He has in fact come after me on several occasions, and I've ended up bruised. He's never hit me, I think he knows I'd walk if he did. And press charges. All this type of behavior from him has gotten a LOT better since he's been in DBT, so I'm not sure why this has surfaced all of a sudden. In fact, when he stated our marriage was still not so great in MC three weeks ago, I was shocked. He'd been saying how great things had gotten, and they were at that time.

I'm thinking my moving to the bedroom may have triggered him? His ex cheated, but before he found out, she'd moved out of their bedroom. Maybe this reminds him of that? He's also gotten suspicious of me if I'm gone a while. He'll ask questions like he thinks I'm cheating. Also, I now fully realize that both BPDh and his ex are likely BPD or some other PD. His ex is crazier even than him, and I know this because I've seen her in action on several occasions. Their kids have all told me horror stories.

I'm trying hard to not be codependent and I'm building a life where I can be happy. Due to his moods, that means I spend quite a bit of time alone. I refuse to be around him when he's in one of his moods. I just need to get better at realizing talking to him only leads to him dysregulating.

One thing I worry about is, for him to say what he did, is he thinking of hurting ME? Does he not trust himself? I know I'd never raise a hand to hurt him(or anyone), but I'm not nearly that sure of HIM. I've pretty good at validating, or walking away, and I'm not a yeller or screamer like him. I can fight fair, but I'd rather not fight at all. I don't view a discussion as a fight, but HE does.

Do I need to worry about sleeping in the same house as him? Do I need to fear for my safety? He does so much projecting, so maybe he's worried because he knows the way his thoughts are going?

 

I have been in your shoes. It isn't a good place to be.

Five years ago, if somebody had tried to tell me that I would do some of the things that I have done, I would have been highly offended and upset. I would have put everything off on my husband. Over time, I lost myself. I lost sight of who I wanted to be and what was important to me. I sunk lower than I have ever felt in my entire life. One day, I confronted my husband about something. I wasn't very nice about it. He got up in my face and hulked up and said, "Hit me. I know you want to. Why don't you just hit me?" It is all a big blur at this point. Neither one of us backed down and he was in my face telling me to hit him. So I did.

I am NOT a violent person. I refuse to spank my kids. I don't believe in violence and tend to avoid it at all costs yet there I was behaving in ways that were in completely out of my values.

Later that same night, he tried the same thing and I walked away and didn't take the bait.

In a high conflict situation, it is common for partners to bait each other or set them up to fail. For example, asking him to do something that you are pretty sure he isn't going to do only to get mad at him for not doing it is a way to increase the conflict and keep it going. Another example is what my husband did which is to get up in my face during a pretty volatile moment and goad me into doing something that I never ever in my entire life would approve of doing.

You are in a dangerous situation. Maybeso and sweetheart know what they are talking about. They are spot on and you need to take steps to protect yourself better. Even if there is no hitting involved, flinging cat litter at somebody sounds a bit abusive. It may not have physically hurt him but it is still not something a rational person would do. I am in no way trying to pick on you or make you feel bad about yourself. I am sharing my experience with you to demonstrate how quickly a high conflict situation can turn ugly.

I am happy to report that my husband and I are no longer in a high conflict situation. Things have actually become pretty peaceful. I had to stop letting my husband define my reality and I had to step away from the conflict.

Do you have a safety plan?

Oh, I agree that flinging kitty litter at him was not my finest moment. At first all I did was dump it on the bed. The actual flinging came about after he came after me. He even admitted it the next day. I'd actually just changed the litter, so it was fresh, but still it was a mess, and of course I did it to annoy him. I'm just so tired of him always doing things he knows will hurt me. I'm pretty sure that was the last of my big gestures. It totally failed. I really thought being outrageous might work, but no, it certainly didn't. I think I shocked him though. He's so used to me being the calm one, and I've just been pushed past the part of always being conciliatory or calm.

I've spent four years always trying to do the right thing, be the calm in the storm, but I've been severely buffeted. All this came right when I thought things were so much better. He blindsided me, and I've been struggling to keep my head above water since.

I do appreciate your concern, and I think in most cases, you are correct, but I know no matter how he goads me, I wouldn't do anything to hurt him. I had a Dad who used to do out of control smashing of things(never abused my Mom or us kids though), and I never wanted to be that out of control. In fact, I really don't think BPDh would ever goad me outright to hit him or hurt him. He does things that might make most people want to, but I won't. I think he does it so he can play victim. I think he spent all those years with his abusive ex because he got sympathy, or could play martyr, and he was a huge part of it himself, I'm now sure.

I'm not reacting as she did, and I'm sure he's stumped, or he's TRYING to get me to react as she did, and I won't. I value myself too much, and I won't lower myself to his level. I came back into this knowing he couldn't do anything much worse than he'd already done, and he really hasn't. Way back, he mocked my being raped, and he said some awful things to me. If I didn't hit him then, or do something drastic, I surely won't now.

It's sad, but I've sort of reached a point where I just don't care. I used to loove him, so I wanted better treatment. Now, it's just because I deserve respect, and I deserve to be treated nicely. I signed back on to be in an off balance relationship, but I'm not going to keep letting it get further out of balance.

I think he's fighting for total control and keep wants me to be a willing target. I'm not being as amenable as he'd like. I'll walk away before we slip into the cycle of abuse though.

I'm just worried that HE might be having those thoughts. I guess now I know to be on guard, in case he tries to pick a fight. I know to just walk away, because he might be walking the line right now. I've never been hit by a man, and at this stage of my life, I certainly don't want it to happen now.

I already hit my bottom over a year ago, and have been slowly climbing my way back up since. Things have been much, much better, I just think this is a temporary setback. His psychiatrist said there would be setbacks, and it would get better before it got worse. He blindsided me, but next time I'll know he's capable of that, and I'll be able to take it differently. He has gotten much better, as far as his anger goes, that is why I was shocked that he brought that up, because compared to that past, we're both in a much better place. Last year, before he left, I could have said what he said(thinking he might hurt me, because he was rather out of control), but I don't feel we are in that place NOW. I just don't know why he feels that way. That's what makes me think HE'S having scary thoughts... .

Other than being mindful, and walking away if he picks a fight, what else can I do? I don't want to totally kiss his butt and cave on all things, like I used to do. I think he's acting out because I suddenly upped some boundaries, and he's vying for what he thinks is control... .

Domestic violence is not just hitting.  It is verbal, emotional and financial abuse, too.  It includes throwing things, poking, being held or restrained against your will, tormenting and/ or standing or gesturing in manner that conveys threat. Many who have been 'hit' in a DV relationship report the emotional a verbal abuse was much, much worse than the physical aspects.

I am not a person who in any manner is viewed as having anger management problems or any hint of a violent or aggressive nature. Not even a little bit.  But, a year into a very provocative relationship with my ex partner... .I found myself throwing objects across the room in anger.   There have been instances where he tormented and mocked me ... .triggering anger in me that was totally unknown to me prior to this.  He once was screaming at me and moved his face into my face taking his index finger and poking me repeatedly and hard in the chest until I slapped his hand way from me and yelled at him to never touch me in anger again.  This was a DV, abusive relationship when this stuff was happening... .even though we were not actually 'hitting' each other.  I realized quickly I was participating in an abusive relationship and it shook me up and I worked very hard to disengage and completely change the reactive way I was responding and the ways I was allowing this person to mess with my head and goad me. Once I started on a path of self-focus and self-care... .this stuff stopped and it was never volatile like that again between us.  He still said and did at times the same kind of  hurtful stuff that led to the fireworks in the past... .I just handled it completely differently than I did early on... .basically not engaging and not being provocative and not allowing myself to be provoked.

Boundaries are important.  Often people will set boundaries only when frustrated... .and often the boundary setting is dramatic in nature or the most likely to trigger fireworks even though the issue at hand may not even be all that critically important... but at the same time the most basic, boring, quiet boundaries get ignored.   Like learning to self-sooth, self-care or self-validate or learning to stay calm in the face of differing opinions. These things are boundaries, too. 

We can only speculate about the possibility of projection being behind his need to bring this up right now.  I think you have to be smart and be safe.

I am still wondering... .Did the therapist ask why or what caused him to bring this up all of a sudden or ask probing or clarifying questions of either of you?... .did the T assess for safety? 

For me being in a relationship with a person who has a personality disorder, both borderline and/or narcissistic, means that I will inevitably be subjected to their need for projection and splitting. Part of what we all come to realise eventually is that these two primary psychological defence mechanisms are always present for our SOs. There are others, but these are the two main ones that we all talk about on here.

I can hear in your posts that your husband splits and projects constantly. Ceruleanblue this is extremely difficult to be on the receiving end of, extremely difficult, so I can understand why this has been at times triggering for you. I can understand feeling triggered, and acting out by shouting and making provocative snide remarks, I did these things. Like MayBeSo says she reacted in ways that were completely out of character for her, so did I. I am by nature an extremely calm, measured woman, nothing much rattles me, I like to think of myself as grounded and ok. I was far from grounded and ok.

How I felt in response to my husbands dysregulations scared me, because inside me were feelings I had never encountered before.

Understanding what it means to be subjected to these kinds of emotional triggers has been for me really, really difficult, to fully come to terms with within my marriage. Removing myself physically and not responding at all were the only ways to begin with that I could use to protect myself and my husband from the feelings he was generating in me. Being in therapy was also a protective factor for me.

Sometimes things can become so triggered in these relationships that we nons can both feel and act out the bad bits that have been projected into us by our SO, like throwing cat litter. In turn our SO can also react to their own projections into us, hence the comment from your husband about feeling scared of you.  This is something called projective identification. It is a very powerful mechanism that in my past professional experience exists often where there is an escalation of domestic violence indicators within a relationship.


Below is a response you posted on another thread yesterday, it is important that you try and hear what your husband is saying and maybe think about ways that you can start to emotionally disengage from his projections and negativity. Remember what is being said is very rarely about you, but about his past early hurts,

... .but just yesterday he told our MC that he fears me physically. I was shocked, but sort of always knew he was capable of such a lie(he lies so much). Oh, the irony. I've had bruises so often from when he gets mad, yet I've never retaliated or hurt him, so this is TOTAL and complete sh*t.

He says he fears things will escalate. He also clarified after we got home(and he was trying to dig himself out), that he fears he might hurt me, and I'd retaliate. I told him he has hurt me before, but I forgave him, and if he'd truly been a wife beater of course I'd have left him. I told him that I stayed because he's getting help and I think these occurrences are tied to his disorder. I then went on to say that if he ever hurts me like he fears, I'd call the police, but I wouldn't retaliate. He's seeing me through the filter of his ex wife who actually did stab him and hit him with a hammer.



I can hear how important your marriage is to you and how much effort you are making to improve things, so with that in mind... .

What tools learnt here have had a positive impact in helping you disengage from your husbands behaviour ?

Who do you have around you as a support network, family, friends ?

This is a stellar post by MaybeSo.

And sums up my experience neatly and completely.   

The flashpoint that tipped my relationship over into violence occurred in 30 seconds.   Literally.  No exaggeration.

If I told you what the flashpoint was, it would make no sense because it was basically innocuous.

It was the accumulation of months of anger and resentment that had been bubbling just below the surface, that finally tipped me over the breaking point.

It's very hard to see when we are in the middle of it.

I would take this as alarm bells that is mind is running through these scenarios, he may just be getting the actors mixed up.

I think what he is worried about is he is feeling unresolved conflict that feels like it is escalating. This may be real or it may be imagined. He is trying to bring it out in the open, which is a good thing, rather than simmering unidentified in his head.

Making out it is you is testing the water to see if you trigger and thus make it a reality. Rather than react and be defensively triggered, you reassure and demonstrate you are no threat, meanwhile keep an eye out for any escalating inner turmoil or tensions he may be exhibiting.

He can sense conflict but can't finger its source so naturally lays responsibility at your feet.

I have been accused of the exact same

I agree that I need to react differently. Almost always, I do. It's just once in a great while, he'll slip a remark that gets under my defenses of walking away or disengaging. He does love to get in zingers, or hateful remarks. I can honestly say that I don't do that.  I've done it very deliberately a time or two, then asked him how it felt. Again, a test to see if he was able to empathize, but no, he can't. I don't just say hateful things, or passive aggressive things just because I'm mad or hurt. I'm more the break down and cry type. I wish I weren't. And I try very hard not to JADE, and I try to use SET, except the "T" part seems to trigger him, so I leave it off.

I guess it's just a matter of me trying a lot harder again, or finding a different way to have a boundary regarding the issue. I think all this started because I'd upped a boundary, and he can't stand when I have ANY boundaries.

And yeah, I too think he can't really find the source of his anger, so has dumped it at my feet. I also think he likely is having some scary thoughts, after some of the things he's said. The fact that he fears hurting me is sort of scary. He didn't do much to defend himself when he was being stabbed and hit with hammers by his ex, but he thinks he might hurt ME? I just don't get that. I just know I'm going to be cautious.

I am doubtful it's up to you to "try harder". You are already worn to a thread.

Why do you want to try harder? Are there results you can achieve by trying harder? I am cautious for you. Are you saying try harder because you are afraid of him?

This situation seems to be chewing up your identity. As a mom, as a person who has a safe life, a livable life.

In all of this, I must have missed it. You have a goal with all of this effort in the middle of chaos. I myself find your husband to be deliberately malicious to you. I am honestly triggering ( because I was abused) off of the things you are telling us are happening.

There is a sustained end result you are hoping for, but it seems to be getting lost with you constantly on the defense. Remind us what it is you are realistically working towards?

I want to be supportive to you, and I am scared for you.

My goals are to find peace for myself among the chaos. Now, it's not always chaos, but there is daily upset again. For quite a while, that was absent, now it's back. I've tried to think if it's ME who is different, but I don't think it is. I think we were functioning better for a while because his DBT seemed to be working, and now he's triggered, or dysregulated, or something.

Other than peace, I just want to our marriage to be better functioning, as some on the staying board have made mention of. I've had glimpses of it in our marriage since reconciliation, but the last three weeks have been a roller coaster again. I'm not off balance, or hugely depressed, as I was prior to our separation, but it's still not what I'd consider stable.

I know our marriage will likely never be totally clear of BPD traits, but I'm hoping that I can offset them somewhat, or change MY part of they dynamics, and effect some change that way. It's not fair, and I don't think the onus of that should have to be only on me, but it's far easier for me to change than him. And I'm not changing who I am, I'm just changing how I react, or how I deal with him.

I have a strong sense of self, and while I may not be able to share that with him, it's become a part of me that he can't touch. And YES, it does feel as though he's trying to change my identity to suit him and his needs. If I go along to make MY life easier, it's my choice, even if he thinks it's his doing And there are some things I just won't go along with.

I want peace. I want a marriage where there is less push/pull, and negativity, but I can only do my part. I've seen things get better for us, but it just gets derailed so easily. It would be easier if it was just me doing it, because that I could change, but I honestly think something was triggered in him, and I reacted to it. I just have to stop reacting, and that's hard. I think some reaction is fine, but not over reacting, whether intentional(which mine was), or not. And I do think he tries to keep me on the defensive, thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't actually thought of it that way, but thinking of it that way may actually remind me not to JADE.

I just wish there was one thing I could hit on that actually got great results when dealing with him. For now, I'm going to work on consistency in walking away, or not engaging. If as was stated above, and it takes 60 some times, I have a long ways to go!

Keep in mind disengaging and boundaries are as much about intervening before you react as it is about not being exposed to unhealthy behavior.

Dr. David Schnarch writes about Normal Marital Sadism,

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intimacy-and-desire/201205/normal-marital-sadism

and the propensity for folks to refuse to see their dark side, and why that's a problem.  It makes sense that being with a disordered person is going to be more challenging than a non-disordered relationship, that is for sure.  But it is important we see our own shadow, too.  Nons sometimes get very wrapped-up in how we are NOT like our out of control partner, minimizing and being a bit unaware of our own propensity for dysregulation or down playing or rationalizing away our own propensity for aggression and snarky behavior.  Nons also seem good at finding really tuff relationship where limits are being trampled over and over... .and then justifying our moments of acting out or our aggressive acts as being reasonable based on the amount of crap we have to contend with.  Makes sense, we are only human.  But we choose to stay with these people, so the ownership still resides with us.  Maybe we should just own our dark side upfront and really get in touch with it... .so we no longer need a challenging r/s to give us an excuse to let it sneak out?   Hmmmm... .

I always think of the old Annie Lenox song where she sings... .

some of them want to use you

some of them want to be used by you

some of  them want to abuse you

some of them want to be abused

CB, we don't know how far your H will come in his treatment or what the ultimate outcome will be.  He probably has certain ceilings.  This is why radical acceptance is part of your own growth and part of growing up.

I can tell you that in my experience, the reward of being in this kind of challenging relationship has to do with your own personal growth, and not what the other person may or may not be doing now or in the future or even for how long the relationship lasts or not.

If you can learn to take care of yourself emotionally... .then when your H brings up a "bombshell' in therapy like he did at the beginning of this thread... .you have the potential to remain calm and ask curious, clarifying questions about what is happening inside of him and what that bombshell is all about from his point of view.  This is the anecdote to projection.  Your immediate response was a triggered one. Then we all speculate on here, is it projection?   That is fine, it happens to all of us, but This is YOUR work to do.   Doing this work on yourself can only be good for you... .as it gives you an opportunity to better understand what is really happening... it is by staying calm and learning to sooth yourself so that you can remain curious when he throws something out there like this... .this is how you begin to understand him better (the good the bad and the ugly) so  that you can know if it is projection (or not)... .because if he can share with you deeply about his fears (without your triggered response)  then he has an opportunity to move closer and closer to owning his own fears... .if he owns them and explores them... .he doesn't have to project all this crap on you.  If you are triggered, then you are likely doing some projection, too!    When we get triggered and dysregulated... .projection flourishes.  

Almost all big fears we have as adults has something to do with our past... .and almost all of us confuse the past with the present at times.  Emotional memory works that way.  

This may have happened to you when you became triggered in this session.   If you trigger off of his stuff, then you both start projecting back and forth and it becomes a murky SH** storm.  That is what a lousy relationship is made up of... .two people who cannot hold onto themselves and they keep triggering the sh** out of one another.  

Your response was to become triggered and call him a liar when he shared he was scared of you.  Your work is to hang onto yourself and not hook into his stuff.  When you get hooked in, the past is coloring your present, too.   This is human, it's reasonable.  Been there, done that.  I did this at least 1/2 of the time with my partner around certain key topics.  I am not with him today, because we could not, in the end,  stop triggering each other.  I am here to say... .I could not do it.  My partner has N traits that continued to trigger me, and I was unable to find a way to feel okay being in a relationship with him. My getting triggered just triggers more of his stuff, more projection, more dysfunction.  blah.  And we just stay at a low ceiling or get sicker together.  I cleaned up as much of my side of the street as I could, but still got triggered around certain issues, and those issues were not going to go away.  That is why I am not with him. That is my decision.  I couldn't do it. I love him, but I can't abide some of his behaviors.   My limits with my partner were breached too many times, and it was the kinder, healthier thing for he and I to NOT be together.

Maybe it will be different for you, but you are correct, there is a lot of work to do and a long way to go if you want to stay healthy with this guy.  The work is not around bending over backwards to be pleasing to a narcissist.  That is not the work! It's also not about being reactionary to a narcissist.  That's not the work, either.    

It is about taking care of your own emotional states, staying safe, raising your awareness about how differently your partner views the world than you do at any given time and hanging onto yourself calmly when that happens, staying calm amidst the ups and downs, facing some possible idealizations you carry about what a romantic r/s can provide... .and getting real about your own triggers and limitations and listening deeply to your own needs and values.  The universe provides the lessons we need to learn.

Stop expecting him to be any different than he is and find a way to be content as things are.  As time goes by, if you can't do that or rarely can get to that place... .then maybe another lesson needs to be learned. Maybe about letting go of things that aren't good for us?  Maybe about getting out of an abusive situation?  Or, maybe its about listening to our deepest feelings and needs and honoring them ourselves and not expecting anyone else to do that for us or to validate that for us?  I don't know. This is your journey. I only know that there are lessons to be learned here that have the potential to be very growthful for you.  

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intimacy-and-desire/201205/normal-marital-sadism

Thank you for that post, MaybeSo 

This is the essence of what the Staying Board is about, it is about rescuing US and OUR future |iiii

quote from MaybeSo


quote from Waverider


these statements have given me some good insight. I know I have my issues to deal with. I have traits in myself that I do not have a problem with but they always seem to trigger something in my wife. I am ok with who I am as far as my core values. I feel like that it's going to end up as MaybeSo put it. That's how I see things right now. I have been thinking about my future a lot. I wanted my wife to be part of it but she seems too detached to come along. I am not willing under the circumstances to go in the direction she is going in. We can't seem to get our different paths to intertwine at a healthy level.


  this is the state I see us in right now

I think I'm doing a lot of what MaybeSo stated. I feel I have radically accepted that he is what he is, and only so much "change" is likely to happy. Behavior modification is hard stuff, and I'm not expecting miracles. I'm not sure if I was "triggered" in our therapy session. I certainly didn't feel triggered, I just felt tired. I'm so tired, and hurt over his frequent lying. There was a time I would never have called him a liar, but I'm done pussyfooting around his anger or hurt feelings. I felt blindsided, but only because he'd been expressing a complete opposite view to me. There have been definite times he's done things that trigger me, but those are becoming less and less. I'm still more likely to break down and cry than anything else.

My focus has been on me, not being codependent, and finding happiness. I've found that I'm happy most times, and seem to get "unhappy" due to his negativity and moods. I'm trying to still be happy, even if he's in a bad mood, or he's angry. I don't need to take on his moods, or try to make up for them. His moods are his, just as mine are mine. I'm just using all the tools I've learned here, and in various books I've read. It's trial and error, but I think I've come a long way. My panic attacks are better, and my anxiety is too. Sometimes it just takes a while to figure out whatever curve ball he's thrown at me, and I'm figuring out the most recent one. lol

I really have almost zero expectations of him or our marriage. I'm afraid to have any, because that just leads to disappointment. I have learned to meet my own needs, and build other relationships. I've definitely had to develop a thicker skin. The day I can actually find humor in some of the absurdity, is the day I know I'm in the place I want to be in.

And I certainly DID NOT choose him knowing he had ANY of these traits. The man he is now, isn't the man I dated or married. He was always this of course, I just didn't know it, because he hid it. And really, I don't even want to know the WHY he acts this way, or need to know what his fears are. Those are his to deal with, and while I hope he does, I'm sort of past being curious about WHY he reacts/acts this way.

I am working hard on being happy as things are, but the issue with that, is he seems to know that I'm doing that, and he works harder at trying to bring me down. I call it "raining on my parade". We had a discussion about it just today. We'd gone on a mini vacation, and two days in a row he let loose with negativity about it. I'm proud to say I walked away to clear my head, leaving him to think about what he'd said. I'm doing better at not being "hooked in" as you say. I had a great vacation, and I'm fine that MY view doesn't match his. I refuse to focus on negatives when so much is good.

Walking away actually earned me an apology when I came back, and he actually wanted to talk, which almost never happens.

I'm not sure any one of these statements are true.  I believe you are telling yourself these things, and wanting to believe them- especially since these are the tenets of institutions that are helping you cope- 12 step programs and bpdfamily; but a person who is flinging cat litter at their spouse is doing none of the above in that moment.

Please take steps to protect yourself from him, and yourself.

You are on the verge of radical acceptance and zero expectations, but if his moods and negativity are truly causing unhappiness in you, then you are not quite there.  It is clear that this guy is a premier button pusher and blamer, but somewhere and somehow, for you to achieve true happiness, you have to disengage enough from him and your enmeshed relationship to have your buttons off limits and unreachable.  You have to be disengaged enough to only be almost grazed by his blame.  If the blame hits you, and sticks, you are too enmeshed.

Take enough of yourself out of the relationship so that the BPD and abuse cannot touch you.  If that means separate rooms, or separate homes, then make it happen.  Right now, you are in danger from what he told you in MT.  A BPD person who says he fears that you will lash out and harm him will "protect" himself WAY BEFORE you make any move to strike. What that looks like is you on the floor bleeding, or bruised, and wondering what just happened.

My wife said a similar thing in MT- she walks around afraid of my anger.  I was horrified and pissed.  She is the one who rages and she is the one who abuses me.  Within 1 week, she lashed out and thrashed me with her single worst rage I have ever witnessed. What she said in therapy was a WARNING of what to expect.  FROM HER.

Protect yourself.  He is on to you.

Please begin to un-mesh, and separate from the madness.  His negativity is causing you to be unhappy- what this means is that you are TOO CLOSE.  I am worried about your safety.

Love,

Surg_Bear

I agree with Surg here.  It wasn't until 123Phoebe on here called me out on my stuff that I had not "radically accepted" my wife and her behaviors.  I had to think a lot about myself then to realize I hadn't "radically accepted" them and was still enmeshed and entangled in her push/pull games.  It's very hard Cerulean.  He is trying to bait you andby you flinging cat litter, he has "won that round" and played into his unhealthiness.


Again, spot on.  My wife is a premier button pusher and blamer.  So often, I would be pulled in without even realizing what she was doing.  SHe can disguise it so well and I would fall for it hook, line and sinker.  To her, everything is everyone else's fault.  I had to accept that she would try to push my buttons, blame me, and not be affected by it.  I had to accept that is how she copes and yet pull far enough back so that she has only herself to blame and that there will be people who will see the truth if they want to.  If they don't, that's on them.

I respect what you are saying, but we are going to have to agree to disagree. I have radically accepted him for what he is, but I'm human, and I occasionally still get triggered, or have bad moments. I can honestly say that I've maybe had two or at most three of those moments the entire four-five years we've been together. At one point, I was suicidal, because I just couldn't believe after all the T I'd had, and me knowing all the warning signs, he turned out to be EXACTLY what I'd tried so hard to avoid.

I'll take full responsibility for the cat litter incident, but I can honestly say that even then, I was just halfway hoping to shock him into seeing that everyone has limits. He keeps poking until he's found mine. Usually, and I say usually, because of these two to three incidents(which while not okay, were never aimed to hurt him physically, as he has done to me), I'm pretty good at walking away, or keeping it civil. I'm only half of this equation, and I'll take full blame for what I did, but I'm not taking more than that. I already get blamed full time from him, and it took a lot for me to overcome letting that keep me down.

I think we all have things we'd change if we could, but on the grand scale of things, I'm not going to beat myself up for dumping kitty litter on the bed. Believe me, it's not something I'd be tempted to do again after I spent an hour on clean up. And I hate to say it, but he does seem to have more respect for me now. I think he thought he could grab me, I'd walk away with bruised wrists as usual, and all would be fine. I now know why his ex once told him in front of me "get your hands off me".

I agreed to come back into this marriage even if nothing changed, I don't know how much more radically accepting I can be than that. I'd like some things to change, but I'm not going anywhere if they don't. I know the most change will be in how I react or don't react to HIM. I can only change me, and only accept that he has the emotional state at times of a three year old.

I am doing all I can to make sure I don't end up hurt by him. And I find it sort of offensive if anyone thinks I'd actually do physical damage to him. I just wouldn't. It took tons of work on ME, to climb out of the pit he'd put me in two years ago. I don't want to start thinking I'm the cause of all this again, because that was where I was at before.

Radical Acceptance is not as easy as making a decision, to a degree it takes a personality change. This all evolves slowly. It starts with a decision then playing the part to start with. The level of acceptance slowly increases, biting your tongue eventually evolves into not having the desire to raise an issue and even being oblivious to it. Our trigger levels slide accordingly, it may be a long time before they disappear altogether, if at all.

This is why"practicing" Radical Acceptance should be taken literally, as it does take practice.

One danger is falling into the trap of thinking you deserve reward/respect/acknowledgement as a result of displaying acceptance, this takes us into martyr mode.

Once it becomes a complete part of our personality it doesn't even rate a blip on the "fairness' debate, as we are barely conscious we are actually doing it.

As you can see complete radical acceptance is rarely achieved by most people as it is a high ideal. We can only do our best and the more we can take on board the less stressed our life will be.

There is no pass/fail, simply a sliding scale of ability.

In a sense it can blind us to red flags at times, so when you reach your limit you are taken by surprise and can cause you to react even more "out of character" as a result.

We are human we can't control everything. Emotions by their nature are a wild card

And I certainly DID NOT choose him knowing he had ANY of these traits. The man he is now, isn't the man I dated or married. He was always this of course, I just didn't know it, because he hid it. And really, I don't even want to know the WHY he acts this way, or need to know what his fears are. Those are his to deal with, and while I hope he does, I'm sort of past being curious about WHY he reacts/acts this way.



I could have written this.  My husband hid his traits from me, too.  It was three months in that I really saw it for the first time. 

Yes, my husband hid his BPD traits from me too. It took a few years for me to see what I was dealing with and even longer to realize that it was BPD. He is high functioning, so it was even more confusing. I call him BPDlite because he doesn't manifest the patterns as extremely as some do, but it's still there.

I want to also stress as did others... .that RA is a practice, it's ongoing... .it's hard... .it's a "state of mind" that takes focus.  It is ever changing, it's not an event.  None of us achieves a state of radical acceptance all the time.  It's like praying or meditating... .we do it but many time through out the day we 'forget'.  So we go back into that state, and we practice it over and over until it's more natural to be in that state of mind.  Even then, we can fall out of that state of mind and then have to shift back into it again and again.  You practice it as much as you can, especially when it's hard or when you are really finding what life presents to be very challenging.  It's about accepting life on lifes' terms.   It is not intended to be a state of mind that makes you better able to tolerate abuse.  It's not about being tenacious.   It isn't about tolerating something, it's about radically accepting what is REAL.  An argument could be made that for some, solid practice of radical acceptance over time might be the thing that moves them away from a toxic r/s rather than deeper into it... .b/c with the reality of what IS fully accepted... .we are in a better position to make wisemind choices... .than when we are dysregulated, dissociative, or in a deep state of denial.  For others, it helps to keep them steady in the midst of a challenging situation because they are deeply connected with their own reality and their choices and can better disengage while staying present.

It has been said a million times on this board, but needs to be said again... .RA has nothing to do with accepting abuse, being a martyr, or having no limits or boundaries, or anything of that nature. 

So, when you say you don't know how to be anymore radically accepting  than you already are b/c you agreed to come back into a dysfunctional r/s without requiring any change... .it truly makes me worry that you are misinterpreting this concept.  Going back into a challenging r/s without requiring ANY change is not necessarily the practice of radical acceptance.  It sounds like maybe you were willing to do anything to give this r/s a try again... .but that is not necessarily the practice of radical acceptance. 

Perhaps you had a moment where you were grounded in a radical acceptance state of mind where you fully "saw" your H as he is, all of this parts, the good the bad and the ugly, and chose to be with him again anyway even while accepting the reality of his limitations and all the challenges that are sure to come with that.  Now that would be an example of radical acceptance.  Even so,  no doubt that state of mind does not stay with you 100 per cent of the time.  It's a practice, you never stop practicing.

There are elements of the r/s you describe that fall under the description of a domestic violence r/s.  I want to gently suggest that it is not an insult to suggest you (or anyone on this board or anyone anywhere) could potentially be violent.  You have a brain and a nervous system.  It is designed to defend itself violently if needed.  You describe common DV scenarios in your r/s.  Maybe you move to more of a freeze or fawn state with tears most often, but there is no guarantee that you could never 'snap' just b/c you more often cry when being bullied... .and if you did, it's not b/c you are a bad person... .but b/c you are just a human being.  Radical acceptance is the acceptance of reality.  It's about accepting radically, what is REAL, not what we want or wish or hope for, and it's not about turning away from ugly realities or inconvenient truths.  It is a reality that any human being could under the right circumstances, lash out and/or find themselves in an escalated exchange where one or both people get hurt.  I think the social sciences have shown this to be the case.  This happens ALL the time, to good people, CB.  It may not happen in YOUR case... .but the potential is there for you and for  ALL of us because we are only human and all humans have their limits.  Even you, CB.  To argue otherwise is to be in denial of reality.  Part of the human experience is the capacity for violence and the capacity to exhibit very very poor behavior under extreme stress or duress. That is why I included the article by the doctor who works with difficult couples.  His message is that part of growing up is accepting our own capacity to be malevolent jerks at times.  He wasn't even referring to DV necessarily, he calls it normal martial sadism.  To argue that is not the case is to deny the human experience.   These relationships are filled with stress and duress.  These r/s are filled with people triggering others.   None of us is so special or so unique that this does not apply to us.

Radical acceptance is about accepting reality and life on life's terms.  This is critically important stuff.   

"Perhaps you had a moment where you were grounded in a radical acceptance state of mind where you fully "saw" your H as he is, all of this parts, the good the bad and the ugly, and chose to be with him again anyway even while accepting the reality of his limitations and all the challenges that are sure to come with that.  Now that would be an example of radical acceptance.  Even so,  no doubt that state of mind does not stay with you 100 per cent of the time.  It's a practice, you never stop practicing."

This is where I was at when we got back together. I didn't require him to change, but he'd already been getting help, and I saw it seemed to be working. Plus, I'd used my time away, to work on ME. I don't feel I did come back into a dysfunctional relationship, although I'd say the two years prior were. It may have be "difficult" at times, but I'd not label it dysfunctional as of now. I'd say we are functioning quite well considering he has a PD, and it's a learning curve for both of us.

I work hard on staying positive, and creating good experiences for myself and my kids. If BPDh wants to join in, that's great too. I'd say I'm pretty grounded in reality, but I'm not going to let the reality of BPDh's moods and acting out determine my happiness. If all I did was dwell on it, I'd start feeling terrible again. As it is now, I come here, vent, and get ideas, and live my life... .