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It seems like they never really try. Never try to make an honest connection. Don't try to have boundaries. Don't try to be healthy with sex. Don't try to normally emotionally attach.

Than when the (non) stands back ( cause who can take this forever) they go " you left me "


When really they were leaving us the whole time. Than they want the " attachment " after the bridge is beyond burned.


But mostly I feel they are careless with their lives at times. They let people slip away from them. They quit.

 

You know?

I think it's a good observation to see that they are incapable of building a healthy connection and life style. With that said,  I like to believe that they are trying to do the best with the tools they have available. When fear is driving your survival instinct, what can you really do but to try to make yourself better? For someone as sick as a pwBPD, and I mean a person without the insight for delayed gratification, there are so many things in this world that can fill that void.

That's why i believe impulsive actions is one of the criteria. It's soothing and it's immediate. To us it appears like they're burning bridges, but to them it's all about survival. Afterwards they really do feel remorse and shame, but by that time a healthy non is long gone

I think eventually we just become triggers - no matter how nice to them we are - so they have to push us away. Must be incredibly frustrating for them, as well as bemusing for us. 

I'm with Fanny, BPD eventually drives the bus over the cliff. It's not a conscience choice on their behalf. It appears to be a conscience choice until you see the BPD running in the background.

"they" statements are tricky things in that theres always a story that counters them. thats true all over these boards. for all we have in common in our stories, we have many differences.

pwBPD are mentally ill and generally, BPD includes fear abandonment, fear of rejection, and an unstable sense of self. such things typically present a lifetime of challenges, professional, romantic, personal. these fears, and in some cases real experiences, only exacerbate these preexisting fears. they become self fulfilling prophecies.

these things can be true for anyone; we all struggle. pwBPD struggle with achieving what they most desire. its a desperately sad reality.

This is true... .I remember her telling me how she could fill up her "box" with nice feelings but the bottom was spilling out at the same time. When she started meds it was more like the "box" filled up for a while and then bottomed out all at once. I think when the "box" was being filled was when I was being idealized and told how wonderful I am for being so understanding of her. Then the box would bottom out and I was unsupportive, a stick in the mud, "you deserve so much better than someone like me, why do you stay?" etc.

That question always made me uncomfortable, because I wanted to say, "I don't really know why I stay other than that I'm comfortable. You really manage to extinguish all the good feelings I manage to muster up about this relationship."

Sad... .  :'(

Like once removed said, you cant make generalisations but i can see where you are coming from. My BPD ex gf just broke up with me like a week ago and looking back at the relationship it did seem like i always had to reach out and assure her that we were ok not the other way around.'The indignation of knowing you indured so much and then they just ended it is hard to bear, trust me i know, i just try my best to remember that she is struggling in ways i cant understand.

A lot of my anger and resentment was expecting my ex to be someone she was not. She tried... .then stopped. And fled. I tried to deal with it, and field emotionally, which triggered her abandonment fears. What I thought I wanted in the beginning, even sought, was not what I wanted when I had it.

From what I've seen, many pwBPD do not 'try their best'.

Not when it's a life of one foot in and one foot out.

How far will you really get with that approach?

I understand how it can seem that a pwBPD does not try their best.

When you look at the behavior, especially when a pwBPD sabotages a relationship or leaves you, it suggests that they do not 'try their best.' Many times our perception is based on what Turkish said, we expect a pwBPD to be something that they are not. When we do this, we tend to view a pwBPD as non-disordered or normal.  I have struggled with this myself.  My struggle was my unwillingness to radically accept the disorder for what it is.

It is very hard for someone to overcome a personality disorder. Imagine having a pattern of behavior that you have had for a lifetime and this is the only way you know how to 'survive.'  I suffer from DPD (dependent personality disorder) and although I have recovered from a large portion of my maladaptive traits, I understand psychopathology and how hard it is to overcome.  I struggle with crippling anxiety on a daily basis and sometimes it is so overwhelming I have a hard time working or functioning. Similar to pwBPD, I have my own fears of abandonment. The fear that I have is so intense and painful (both emotionally/physically) and coping/working through it can feel like a living nightmare.  Based on my own experience with fears of abandonment and the accompanying abandonment depression, I can understand why a pwBPD would behave in a way to avoid those feelings/abandonment depression. Behaving this way is instinctual when you are triggered. The best way to describe it is like a compulsion or addiction and maladaptive behaviors are like a fix. Although my maladaptive behavior differs from a pwBPD when my abandonment fears are triggered, I can still be perceived as not trying to my best to overcome.

Many pwBPD suffer from shame. Shame is a root cause of self-loathing. Sometimes a pwBPD can hide their shame and self-loathing very well, but they still have feelings of self-disgust, self-hatred, self-directed anger, self-criticism, pessimism, hopelessness, low self-worth, and emptiness at their core. The shame prompts a pwBPD to believe that they are failures, horrible people, and worthless. The shame makes a pwBPD hate themselves for behaving in a certain way.  As a result, a pwBPD can engage in self-destructive behavior such as substance abuse, self-harm, sabotaging relationships, self-punishment, and suicide. It becomes  a self-fulfilling prophecy for a pwBPD with self-destruction. PwBPD will feel even more shame in engaging in self-destruction afterwards it reinforces their hopelessness and low self-worth. 

Than when the (non) stands back ( cause who can take this forever) they go " you left me "


This really resonated with me.  I think I stood way back this past year and it was the calmest year we had... .then again she just left me and accused me of "never being there"... .

when I was there all the time the abuse was much worse.

It really is a case of your darned if you do, darned if you don't. No matter what you do, it doesn't matter because he/she set you up to fail.

My ex told me as she replaced me this final time, "this was just infatuation, we were never in a relationship. I think I wanted you to be something you werent".

Really? It took you 3yrs and a dozen breakups to think this? I am painted so black right now and she is off in la la land with the replacement.

PW,

You are right about the Catch-22 of it all. It was truly a no-win situation!


Man... .I am so sorry to hear that. I was always accused of not being the person my ex fell in love with, but looking back, I think it was lots of projecting from her hand. Insecurity that we're starting to see the 'real' them perhaps

Oh man, that was exactly what she said to me... .are you sure we didn't date the same person?

I think it's creepy they all say the same thing. It's like they are their own species.


Mine is un-diagnosed but I don't need a diagnosis. As far as I am concerned she is several in the cluster-B category. I don't need an official anything.

I feel like my ex wife did the best that she could and that I had expectations that the relationship was reciprocal. I felt a lot of anger and resentment.

I understand that my perception of her was that she was non-disordered and that it was 50 / 50 when the best that she can do is perhaps somewhere in 70 /30 or 80 / 20. I think that my expectations were too high and I had wanted her to understand me and not the other way around. She has low emotional intelligence and social impairments.

It helped when I radically accepted BPD and inject compassion and understanding with what she has coped with daily for a life-time. I'm OK with the reality that she can't meet me in the middle even if that means that I have to make the extra effort.  I think that we all have our own personal battles that we face. Sadly for some people its a very difficult one with a personality disorder.

Mutt, just out of curiosity: are you still with your BPD or are you NC/LC?

Hi Fr4nz,

She's due to have her baby in Sept with her boyfriend. I have neither NC/LC and I have contact.

haha seriously! Fr4nz I just read your post from earlier this year and man... .what a roller coaster! It gives me great courage that you personally went through 1.5 year of that and now are here far along the recovery path. Thanks for sharing that with us


PW, you are on fire. I was searching frantically to put the diagnosis, confirm to some degree. But in the end it doesn't matter. Whatever they are doesn't work for us!

its also worth noting the difference between high functioning and low functioning.

many pwBPD are incredibly successful professionally. also, consider any pwBPD who has committed to recovery.

notable not quitter: marsha linehan

notable not quitter: Tami Green

others i can name.

Yeah, mine quit the relationship... .

13 times... .

Wait Marsha Linehan, the creator of DBT was diagnosed with BPD? Mind. blown.

Did you have N/C after your b/u? If yes, for how many months it lasted (and who broke it) and how did you manage to have a friendly reconnection with her?

Linehan was diagnosed as schizophrenic and institutionalized. After she started studying psychology, she diagnosed herself in retrospect as BPD, and developed a way to help others like her.

I think the answer is can't rather than quit. Looking at BPD as fundamentally an attachment disorder, a pwBPD is severely penalized from the very beginning in attempting to form mature, healthy bonds. The capacity to accomplish the task is simply not there.

Think of it like this: a person gives you a 5 lb. weight and ask you to carry it for a mile without putting it down. Most people will have the physical capacity to accomplish that task. The same person gives you a 300 lb. weight and ask you to carry it for a mile without putting it down. Now, how many have the physical capacity to accomplish that? That's can't rather than quit.

Perfectly stated, apollotech.

I think they sometimes, as a defense mechanism, also put on a facade and make others think that they just "do what they want" and refuse to do things.  But, like you said, it's neither of those things, but rather that they just can't.

For those of you struggling with this, think of some things your exBPD said to you and put in the word "can't."  That's what you're dealing with when you have a pwBPD in your life.

Here are a few examples of things my BPD said, with a word struck out and the word "can't" added where the other word was.  In some cases, I've added other words in brackets, for emphasis:

- I refuse to can't adult.

- I always can't get what I [really] want.

- I love can't love you [the way you love me].

- I don't can't have friends [who stay for a long time].

Really changes things, doesn't it?  

*Edited because this English teacher has been on summer vacation too long and made a glaring usage error.   

And this again is all denial, driven by the internal shame inherent to people with the disorder.

Lying, cheating, scapegoating, raging, running away... .That's not 'best'.

Much of this is intentional. They know what's going on and it's continued.

Can they help it? Often, no. But can they find help? Definitely yes.

At what point in a pwBPD's life is this a decision being made to stay 'ill'?

PwBPD present themselves as something they're not. Over and over again.

Sweeping this under the 'mental illness' rug excuses too much bad behavior.

Amen, Myself. Amen.

I had life-long emotional wounds and destructive repetitive relationship patterns. I could have seeked help in T. Why didn't I make that choice? In marriage counseling I had wanted my ex to change to ameloriate the marriage because I thought that there was nothing wrong with my behaviors - I was blaming her. It took a very difficult personality disorder for me to turn the binocular around. It was the catalyst for change. It begs to question why didn't I go into therapy to work on my stuff yet I was repeating the same patterns?

Mutt, if you're going to put yourself on a similar playing field as a pwBPD, and you've seen that when you sought help/got help (even though it took awhile/certain struggles to get there) it bettered your life, then why not hold pwBPD to similar standards/results? Obviously it's possible for just about any of us to overcome much of what holds us back. It's seen here everyday. BPD is one of the harder nuts to crack, for sure, but it can be done. It's an option/choice. It can at least be tried, instead of the person just repeatedly 'quitting'. Taking the high road (which sounds codependent in many ways, and also a form of denial same as radical acceptance can be) and saying they 'can't help it' just doesn't really cut it. Not in this age of more awareness, googling, self-help books, available therapists, sites like this... .

myself,

BPD is one of the hardest conditions to treat.  Most of the treatments I see recommended for borderlines is a form of group therapy. I think this reflects because in a 1 on 1 the disorder itself will outmaneuver most therapists, especially if they try to get to the core of it.  Because the disorder is well beyond the capabilities of most therapists they invent therapies that teach self policing techniques to the borderline from a safe distance to avoid getting schooled by the disorder.

In reading  this thread, and considering life with my unBPDhusb, I get the sense that pwBPD ARE trying their best... .as best as any mentally ill person can do. This may not be the best that mentally well person could do, and therefore the non's perceive it as not doing their best.

Am I reading this right?

Yep excellent summary SurfnTurf!

Great thread working here.  

I have thought of BPD as "emotional alcoholism".  Emotional blackouts, memory loss, unpredictable behaviors, rages, rants, picking fights, feeling confused, unable to orient yourself, extreme behaviors etc.  

The BPD may have a sense that there is a problem but denial protects them.  The only reasonable answer to an active alcoholic is another drink as is an emotional outburst to the BPD; protection from what they are running from.  

This analogy also helps me to empathize when I imagine if feelings were to a BPD what alcohol is to an alcoholic.  You can put a bottle down but you can't stop feelings, even if you try to suppress them.  

A recent example this week:

My Ex is anxious about S5's placement test for kindergarten. I'm not worried; he will place how he places, and they'll let us know. I took him that day, and she asked what they said. I told her that it was an assembly line and that they took him for 45 mins, brought him back, and took another kid. She told me later that she called them, but that they hadn't returned her call. She also said that S5 might be bored, and that she wanted to know if he could advance to 1st grade. I thought, "Whoah there, Nellie!" My thoughts:

1. She's genuinely worried that S5 might be bored.

2. She sees him as giving her self-worth so that she can have "bragging rights" that he skipped kinder, thus feeling better about her Self.

I think it's probably a mixture of the two, but what's best for our son? Unless he's a little Thomas Edison, the maturity issues at this age far outweigh any supposed genius (she's constantly saying that both kids are geniuses  

Is it my job to give her my opinion on #2? Is she capable of seeing this? Probably not, and I'm not her therapist. So is she responsible for objectifying the children as object attachments to help define her empty self? Yes. Short of an official diagnosis other than her depression, in combination with therapy, this is just who she is: limited in some ways. I can only do what I can.

we shouldnt forget that there are pwBPD who recognize they have a problem and do seek treatment and/or help.

like mutt explained, its difficult for anyone to do. some pwBPD will/have gotten there. some nons will/have gotten there. some of both wont.

and thats not to ignore the added difficult that a personality disorder presents. just to suggest that in the grand scheme of things, it is something that most people of all kinds struggle with, for all kinds of reasons.

Yes, I think so.  Even before I knew what BPD was and before my pwBPD was diagnosed with it, I was using terms that we use here when discussing BPD and was trying to point things out to her that I noticed.  Was she receptive?  No.  She couldn't be. 

I was speaking in logic; she speaks in emotions.  It would be like trying to plug a CD into a USB port.  They may both contain the same information, but the way that information is stored and processed is much different.  The USB port is pretty direct (us Nons).  The CD (a pwBPD) would like to fit into the USB port, but instead, it goes into the disc drive and spins around and around, cycling back again and again.  I could talk to my pwBPD until I was blue in the face and accomplish absolutely nothing.  And we're talking about someone who was very self-aware even before her diagnosis.

I do think my pwBPD tried the best that she could.  She messed up majorly and ended up once again destroying a relationship, but I do think she tried.  When we first became friends, she definitely delayed giving me her phone number.  Texting is her main mode of communication, so it's almost like she was trying to prevent herself from opening that line of communication.  And one time, after we started getting very close, she even tried to pull back and tell me that we should maybe just be work friends. 

Many pwBPD are extremely intelligent.  They know that their behaviors are not not acceptable.  My pwBPD once said to me, "I act in a socially unacceptable manner."  Of course, they are also like children, so they do it anyway.  Then, they feel intense shame because they did something that wasn't acceptable. 

I don't know how common it is, but my pwBPD sought out approval/disapproval for her actions.  The day after she had sex with her boyfriend for the first time, which was extremely early in the relationship, she mentioned it to me and another co-worker.  When she told me, it wasn't in the typical, "WOW, I had sex with him last night, and it was awesome" tone that people often use.  She kind of slowly slipped it into the conversation and said, "My boyfriend stayed over last night."  I didn't really have a response (I was already crushing pretty hard on her at this point, so I really didn't want to hear about it), but I also didn't express extreme disapproval.  When she told my co-worker, she said, "I wasn't sure about him staying over, but it went okay."  Was she lying about not being sure?  Absolutely.  I'm sure she jumped his bones as soon as he got to her place.  That's her rewriting history.  But I think she was definitely was trying to gauge how other people reacted to her actions.  I don't know.  I could be wrong about what exactly she was doing and how it related to BPD, but it's an observation that I had. 

And not only that, but it's hard to get a pwBPD to go to therapy and stay in therapy.  Mine said she wants to get treatment, but she also said she was going to do a million other things and never did, and some of those also would have benefited her, like applying for a teaching job.  I absolutely hope she does because she told me that she's doing it partly because she hurt me so badly and realizes that she needs to be a better person, but at the same time, her feeling bad about hurting me can only go so far.  In the meantime, since being diagnosed not quite two months ago, she has continued to make really poor and impulsive life decisions.   

Also, I don't think a lot of pwBPD really spend the time researching BPD and treatment for it, at least not like we do, so they may have unrealistic expectations for how long it will take to recover and what recovery really means.  Plus, their BPD is a major barrier that prevents them from being receptive to therapy.   

Let me interject this thought. I am not judging, just stating a fact:

In 2015: Some 795 million people in the world do not have enough food to lead a healthy active life. That's about one in nine people on earth; In the United States, about 40,290 women will die from breast cancer; More than 1.2 million people in the United States are living with HIV infection, and almost 1 in 8 (12.8%) are unaware of their infection

I get tired of reading that they can't help it. Yes they can help it. Yes they know exactly what they are doing. They lie and manipulate. Bottom line. I heard hours of testimony from therapists at court and I'm convinced they know can plot against you and play the game.

people don't often even realize what they are doing much less a borderline. We have a narrative in which the things we do are justified and make sense and so does a borderline, we look for validation and things to affirm the way we see the world is in fact valid just like a borderline. There are probably sweat shop workers in some third world country that wishes we could all suddenly become enlightened to how our system is inherently abusive but we are just trying to make sense of our own lives and get our needs met just like a borderline. Even lets say we become aware of the systematic abuse of our system how do we even go about changing it? It is something much larger than us that we exist in and at the end of the day we just want to focus on what gives our lives meaning just like how a borderline exists within the disorder and seeks a narrative that gives their lives meaning.

We turn a blind eye to abuse everyday and mainly only raise our voice when the crap gets on our shoes. Heck I bet most of us would validate it without even realizing it and  turn on the person who made us aware of it then go on to immediately forget our complicity because it doesn't fit in with the way we like to see ourselves.

Its funny, earlier I'd seen a post about a tribe in Brazil being thrown out of their land for corporate dam-building. Of course I was a bit angry but I realized I'm just like everyone else, getting a little angry about the injustice, maybe commenting briefly about how wrong it is and going back to posting on this board.

That's where my perspective gets very grey when talking about BPD and the individuals that suffer from it. Their perspective is just as real as mine or as the tribal person in Brazil. Does that make them a bad person? Not inherently. They make bad choices but so do we. You could say the sufferer of BPD makes choices that are more hurtful to others in certain ways, but if these choices are not necessarily violent or blatantly abusive, where is the line drawn between a fragile ego being stepped on and them doing something right for themselves or the world?

the hard part I think it is to make sense of is for many of us, me included, the pwBPD in our life were at times intentionally abusive and they reveled in our suffering. In my experience that memory is incompatible because it is too painful and shamefull to take full responsibility so they will literally forget it and come up with some narrative of the steps they are taking to better their life for people to validate and for them to identify with. When they are really trying to understand and sort of brought to confront themselves they will often lash out but when that false self is ripped open and they remember they will admit fault and feel terribly ashamed etc but they will immediately begin to fabricate a new narrative to make sense of things where they can be free of those behaviors.

why do we feel the need to discipline them? who are they a stand in for in our desire to discipline them? To force them to understand.

From my experience the false self is never ripped open and fault admitted unless it offers them a chance to recycle or further their agenda- that's where it's about to become your painful burden/future baggage.


Why do you feel the need to advocate their behavior, who are you to deny emotional maturity?

It's not the magnitude of their actions but the repeated unhealthy and destructive cycle, filled with trauma that is real as reality for everyone involved.

---

I concur with myself's statements,

Even those who go for therapy and take medication still are prone to Lying, cheating, scapegoating, raging, running away- and QUITTING

Personal example I was contacted by exwBPD out of the blue(and now I know why, I'll tell it last), it was just 2 months of contact this year, in those two months, she was the one who ended the relationship- badly.

she was trying to rekindle with me and I love her but doesn't give her a free ticket to come back so I confronted her with the past, she tells me she was lost, done and had to do things to be 'normal' again, gains my sympathy,

she tells me she doesn't like her current partner, tries to bait me with power that her bf is jealous of my writings and also tells me he says I'm a good writer(didn't fell for it),

a few days later She asks me hypothetically if I would stay in the hospital for her if she was that sick and then tells me about the incident where she had to be in a hospital and her bf left her there because he doesn't like being there, gains my sympathy, and then a few days later she clarifies that he has a phobia and he only went out a minute.

She tells me her bf is immature and that she can't talk to him because he doesn't get her, does things like going to his friends birthday instead of giving her time, attends important calls even during her therapy, even when she is crying in them because they are related to work (he is mainly taking care for both of them financially), gains my sympathy.

She makes him attend the sessions with her because she can't do it own her own she further explains- oh my personal favorite he lies and isn't true to his words, like covering the rent or doing things on time(props to that guy for trying to taking care of her for 2 years now, paying her university, therapy and apartments expenses while also taking care of himself, how immature of him.), she somewhat gains my sympathy,

A few days later, she tells me her bf broke down and told her that he thinks he is losing her to me(YES, I also came to know the fact too then), is thinking about cancelling a trip with me- I confront her about what she really wants, she is sympathetic about her bf but tells me she isn't sure.

She again tries to rekindle- I put her off, she gets angry, passive aggressively tries to push my buttons, tries to invoke jealousy in me by telling me, her bf never gets angry at her- I don't budge, gets more mean, sends me vulgar text in the morning, I decide to bail and go no contact start removing myself from the internet because she stalks me, she finds out and she comes running back and begging me to stay. I tell her it's the final straw- tell her I can't deal with her behavior and if she is going to make things work she would really need to try,

things change, communication gets less- things get better on her side financially- she has changed the psychotherapist twice(she didn't like the last two). but she doesn't improve, still is lying to me. I finally had to block her out for my own sake, but guess what- all the sudden things are getting better between her and her bf, she thanks him for being the guy she can always talk to and not talk about(read that on her facebook   I don't know what happens after).

Anyhow,

In those two months she made a drama triangle, manipulated, lied, recycled, played victim and finally quit when it came to facing responsibility.

Even those who go for therapy and take medication still are prone to Lying, cheating, scapegoating, raging, running away- and QUITTING

Yep, and plenty of people without mental imparments do the exact same things.

Yep, and plenty of people without mental imparments do the exact same things.

Yeah plenty of people breathe oxygen too, mental impairments* or not.

harysc,

I am not sure if you just completely missed my point or you were further supporting my point. The characteristics you attributed to a person with a mental impairment can also be found in people, even without mental impairments, across any populace.

I apologize for not knowing your story if it is posted on the boards, how long have you been out of the relationship?