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Recently I have discovered that I self sabotage quite often. My self sabotage has made things really difficult for me.  The self sabotage is completely something that I do unconsciously.  I do not intend to self sabotage, but it ends up happening. 

Instead of self sabotaging with impulsivity, I sabotage with indecisiveness.  I have had opportunities to improve myself or become more successful, but I will stop myself with any self enhancing opportunity.  It is like I constantly hold myself back in fear of advancing too much.   

I know where it originates from and why I do it, but I do not know how to overcome it.

Has anyone experienced this? 

I haven't experienced this too much in my life, as far as I am aware, but I find it very self-aware of you to pinpoint this and question it.

Could you provide any specific examples of you sabotaging yourself?

It might help to flesh out what's going on in your head. I find that the patterns are easier to spot this way, personally!

"Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right."

I was just reading about this the other day. I've done this a lot in the past. I came to the conclusion I never wanted to risk being wrong or doing something wrong because, you know, what will people think?  :)

My T, in her wisdom, told me a long while back if you have a problem with being wrong you will struggle. I take more risks in being wrong today. Don't let the inner critic win, it's lying to you.

Here's what I read that hit the nail on the head for me about indecisiveness and how it's self sabotaging.

"When compulsively indecisive people do finally make up their mind, what often happens? They start to worry that they have made the wrong decision. They start undermining themselves and second-guessing their own authority. Why does this happen? Their sense of authority comes under attack from their inner critic. They feel they will be harshly condemned from within if their decision turns out to be a bad or costly one. Their sense of authority collapses because, in the face of the self-aggression that emanates from the inner critic, they have retreated into inner passivity.

Medieval philosopher Maimonides said, “The risk of a wrong decision is preferable to the terror of indecision.” Often, thanks to our inner passivity and inner critic, it’s the other way around: “The terror of indecision is preferable to the risk of a wrong decision.” The inner critic, in any case, can get us either way, in the first instance for daring to express inner authority that circumvents the inner critic’s assumed preeminent authority, and in the second instance for being passive."

My source with more on the topic: www.whywesuffer.com/indecisive-no-more/

I am going to leave out all the psychological theories, but the origin of the behavior is a result of my mother. My mother taught me to be dependent. I was taught that being autonomous was wrong. If I had different thoughts, opinions, values, morals, goals, dreams, aspirations that differed from her I was projected on and punished. She would  make me feel guilty for being autonomous and told me that I was unable to make my own decisions or take care of myself.  She still tells me that, even as an adult.  Punishment meant her emotionally/ physically abandoning me. Every time I started flourishing by doing something that I wanted/like to do, she would punish me. I learned maladaptive behavior, like appeasement and self sacrifice as a means of survival.  

I self sabotage when I could do something to further my career. It is like I feel guilty doing something that can better myself, like I hear my mother's voice telling me that I am unable to do it. So I self-doubt debating whether do it or not and my mother's thought that I am feeble and not a good daughter if I do something that she does not like/agree with pops into my head. Then I end up feeling guilty.   

Yeah, I understand. You are aware of the behavior, but when push comes to shove you turn away from potential advancement due to the guilt that your mother projected onto you in those situations when you were younger. Your mothers voice is the self-doubting one. Thus the self-sabotage due to your inner-critic, as SuzN quoted.

It sounds like you know what it going on, you're seeing a T, and focusing on the maladaptive traits. I find the doubt to be absolutely normal. Everyone has doubts when they make a decision. But it looks like the doubt is overtaking the positive parts of this process, even if the positives surely outweigh the negatives (from my point of view, this is rejection vs. acceptance). Do you think that maybe there is a deeper fear of rejection here that got nurtured a little bit too much in your childhood?

And how do you think that you can strengthen your own inner-voice, so that the self-doubting one isn't so loud?

This is so true.  :) Thank you for this.  


I have abandonment fears, not really fears of rejection. I think the problem is that a script became conditioned at an early age, that doing well for yourself is wrong/bad.  It is not rejection per say. I am not afraid of failure or being myself.


I have no idea.  

Haha, I was hoping that you'd be able to answer that!

It might be time to just start playing hardball then. Less analysis and more action.

Let's speak in concrete terms. What can you do in the next 3 months to further yourself, career wise?

I recognize when I start to self sabotage, but I cannot stop it from happening, if that makes sense.

Furthering myself would most likely be doing something that I would not 'normally' do, like taking initiative and doing something outside of my comfort zone.

I believe I have the exact issue.  There are opportunities that I can be creating or pursueing, however, I tell myself "later."  Or that I'm not ready yet, or "when the conditions are better."  What I think I am really thinking, is that I don't deserve it.

I ask my T last month what to do about self sabbotage.  Unfortunately all he replied was that when I felt that monster creeping up in me, to laugh it off and tell it not to do that and move on.  That didn't help so much.  I see his point in not giving the thoughts so much power and to not take it serious so that it can go away, however, it is not really a feeling that creeps in on occasion, more a maybe core belief that I am unworthy that needs work.

Idk if that feels similar to you as well?

I think that I deserve it the majority of the time.  I feel guilty if I do something that would better myself. Most of my core problems are based on my pathological guilt. 

As for your situation, it could very well be a result of a childhood script that made you feel as if you were not good enough.  I would wager that is where the fear stems from and that is why you procrastinate or rationalize why the present is not a good time.  Your therapist gave you good advice on how to change the emotions/behavior associated with your cognitions.  To really get at the core of the problem, you would have to tackle self-esteem/self-worth issues.

I had to stretch my mind here... .but I do see how that is different.

I tried to look it up to understand better.  Found this... .but honestly I cannot tell if it is any good as it is hard for me to wrap my mind around:

www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-GUILT.html


So maybe you need to find something small that you can take initiative of that is out of your comfort zone just a little... .then celebrate/congratulate yourself in some way? 

Start small... .and build on that.  Find ways to reinforce it.  Do a lengthy visualization where you feel good in taking initiative and then experience the celebration, sense of independence, sense of mastery... .(without guilt)

It is heavy on the psychological terminology and I understand how it can be difficult to follow.   Thank you for sharing the link, it is exactly what plagues me. 


I have something in mind that is outside my comfort zone. I think I shall try that.


I like this.  :)

So in case it helps... .

In a session with my T, where I asked him how I can begin to have healthier dating r/s... .  He suggested I start by broadening my social experiences to things that are outside of my comfort zone.  After exploring some ideas... .we had a few.  One was joining a book club.  I explained that I had some discomfort,   agoraphobic type tendencies about it... .and that joining sounded scary.  He was being both silly and serious and asked if I could just go to the library or book store and find out about the book clubs.  I got pretty excited that he lowered the goal to something manageable... .so I was pretty enthusiastic about just going to grab a schedule. 

The baby steps felt safe and manageable to me.  And he had given me permission to feel successful taking just baby steps.

(So the result was... .that I did end up doing something from the list and even somewhat regularly... .I am sure the next new thing I attempt will need some baby steps to get my feet wet too.)

I'm not sure if I self-sabotage, but I am the type of perfectionist that avoids doing anything lest my efforts not be good enough (and they are never enough). On the note of going outside your comfort zone to desensitize to the anxiety, I have an example from my own life. I have social anxiety, low self esteem, and realized I had few hobbies outside of uBPDgf. This past week, I forced myself to attend a dinner through meetup.com, just to get myself out there more. Afterwards, I had a strong feeling of peace that seemed to come from nowhere. Honestly, I think I had been living my life desperately clutching the safety of my home, my thoughts, my analyzing. Going out made me realize I could engage in the world outside myself, and still be safe, still maintain my sense of self. If I go again, I'm sure I'll still have anxiety about it, but I'm on the right path.

juju,

I have similar self sabotaging tendencies of procrastination and anxiety.  What I noticed is often during these moments I would turn to others for advice... .as it turns out 'their' advice has been horrible. The advice typically becomes a way to project their insecurities onto me and then assume the position of inner critic in some kind of narcissistic transaction. I don't mean this in a necessarily pejorative sense of narcissism either, just that it allows for the position of the person we are dealing with to assume that of an idealized ego state in relation to that of vulnerability.  For me a big thing is just realizing that when I enter into that state it is because I am trying to uncover some fixation within me and other peoples advice is to quote the dude, "Well, that's just like [their] opinion man," and in doing that I create a boundary to create the space to work through whatever it is I need to in that moment.

I do the exact same thing. I am working on just listening to myself, and not needing someone else to be my authority. Sometimes, like you said, in hearing an opinion that doesn't work for me, it helps clarify what is truly right for me.

Can you say more about uncovering a fixation? What makes you say this? I believe this is my experience exactly. I was doing this off and on all day today. I started out peaceful about a decision, and as it didn't result in a change I hoped to see, I fixated on whether I should or could do more.

Many children who grew up in environments where 'perfection' was a standard have these problems. It is a never ending process of appeasement and 'perfecting' oneself. A child learns that perfection or fitting in a certain familial role is normative, eventually these behaviors become reinforced. Self-worth and self-esteem become synonymous with 'perfection' and anything short of perfection means that you are not good enough. Essentially, you set yourself up to fail with this worldview. 


I do not procrastinate per say.  I will actually start doing something that is self-enhancing, but suddenly stop because I feel guilty. There are times where I am indecisive and do not attempt something, not because I think I will eventually fail at it, because I feel badly for even attempting it.


I am unsure of how this is applicable to my issue of self sabotage.

Well, there you have it then.  I took what you described in your opening post that I would define as what procrastination essentially is. That word is loaded with shame for you and it like closed you off from being able to relate to the rest of what I have wrote in that post.

How do you feel about people who procrastinate?

When I feel like I have failed at something (like my b/u with a pwBPD), I noticed that I tend to bring up endless failures of my past to the surface... .I can get lost in my head about them and they become a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Mindfulness is something that I've started to work on during my recovery and it's comforting to have that tool.

Just this morning I was anxious about an upcoming licensing exam. Instead of thinking about what would happen on a failure and probably sulking about the ex, i just sat with the thoughts for a second. Got coffee and went for a walk

That is your definition of procrastination and how you perceive the concept. In my opinion, procrastination has to do with motivation.

Most people procrastinate and I am indifferent to procrastination. It happens time to time and I do not get upset when I do it.  

My self sabotage is guilt based, which is very different from shame.


I think I now understand what you are talking about here.

I think the type of guilt you are referring to as "pathological guilt" is likely easily misunderstood.  I admit, I did not know what you were describing.  Upon looking it up a bit an example was given of that of a child, who upon entering a room, sees a broken lamp and feels guilt.  Even though the child logically knows and believes that she had no involvement in the act of breaking the lamp, she is still riddled with guilt.

I still have to stretch my mind to grasp this as it is beyond my experience.

I also did not find much in the way of treatment.

I have wondered if embracing a rebelious side of Eagles may help?

Or more nurturing and desensitizing of guilt over good feelings?

But I'm just grasping here.

Is there any time you can think of from your past where these feelings were greatly minimized?

Or triggered?

And start there?

 
"well, that's just like your opinion man."

you see what I did there? :thought:

I'm a clown really.

The way that I tried to understand it is by comparing it to anxiety issues.

There are people that are generally ok, however, have episodes of anxiety.  They calm, return to baseline, stay there a bit, then may have another trigger crop up.

However, there are people with GAD and their "baseline" is a low current of continuous anxiety with peaks, ebbs, and flow.

So I am imagining that pathological guilt can be likened to GAD, in that it is a guilt without a cause for the effect and it just present even without provocation.

Is this about right?

because your motivated right?

by the way this sounds more like engulfment fears than abandonment fears.

This is a very good example of what pathological guilt is like.  |iiii You are constantly feeling as if you are doing something wrong.


No there is not much really. It usually gets lumped with shame.


I think nurturing and desensitization would be the best route.


I never thought about it this way, but it is similar to the way you describe GAD. It is present even without provocation. Although there are circumstances, where the guilt becomes heightened. Many of the times it is related to my mother, another family member, or my pwBPD. I feel more guilt then usual for doing something for myself.

It doesn't appear that many of us share this pathological guilt, however, maybe we can still find a way to be helpful?

Eagles, what if you convince yourself in something small... .that you MUST do it because it is best for someone else?

Kinda use the guilt "against" being guilty.  If that makes sense.

For example, say you want to pursue requesting a higher position at work.  However, you feel guilty that even in asking for this position, you are out of line in wanting more for yourself... .or speaking up for yourself.

What if you stop making it all about you?  What if you make it about everyone else instead?

So, sure... .  You feel guilty to take this job, someone else may be more worthy or want it... .you don't deserve it as it would improve your quality of life in some ways... .

OR

You can think:

If I don't ask for this position, I am denying others from benefitting from my gifts that I have to share with the world.  Who am I?  ... .that I think it is up to me to deny the benefits that others could reap if I don't ask for this position that I know utilizes me in a more full way?

What if you tell yourself that your self inflicted default guilt is really self centeredness in disguise?

Am I making sense here?

I'm finding it hard to articulate... .I hope you can follow it anyway!

"Once a child begins to recognize that its body is separate from the world and its mother, it begins to feel anxiety, which is caused by a sense of something lost. The demand of the child, then, is to make the other a part of itself, as it seemed to be in the child's now lost state of nature (the neo-natal months). The child's demand is, therefore, impossible to realize and functions, ultimately, as a reminder of loss and lack. (The difference between "demand" and "desire," which is the function of the symbolic order, is simply the acknowledgement of language, law, and community in the latter; the demand of the imaginary does not proceed beyond a dyadic relation between the self and the object one wants to make a part of oneself.) The mirror stage corresponds to this demand in so far as the child misrecognizes in its mirror image a stable, coherent, whole self, which, however, does not correspond to the real child (and is, therefore, impossible to realize). The image is a fantasy, one that the child sets up in order to compensate for its sense of lack or loss, what Lacan terms an "Ideal-I" or "ideal ego." That fantasy image of oneself can be filled in by others who we may want to emulate in our adult lives (role models, et cetera), anyone that we set up as a mirror for ourselves in what is, ultimately, a narcissistic relationship. "

https://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/psychoanalysis/lacanstructure.html

so, by the nature of looking to an other for an answer to the demands of knowing who one is by its very nature is a narcissistic relationship.

by validating the identity you constructed of the person that is stuck I would be fulfilling the position of this imaginary other and in effect keeping you unconscious of the thing which you seek to identify. A thing which I used the provocative term of "procrastination," to contain in relation to myself and this imaginary other which we are here calling the 'inner critic.' Procrastination is in essence the desire not to enter into the heightened state of anxiety caused by being confronted with ones indecisiveness or the direct confrontation with the inner critic.

you highlighted procrastination then clarified that you could not relate to the rest of my statement for your situation. Which made me aware that you grouped the rest of my statement and procrastination the thing you could not relate to together despite the  separate segments you used to relate to them your response. Indicating to me that the word procrastination contained an underlying chain of signifiers that you were relating to rather than the rest of my statement which you went on to associate with the word, "motivation."

I have trouble describing the stance I took but it is that of the clown. Yes, you are "motivated" to confront the anxiety of indecisiveness in the gaze of the inner critic the 'I" that gives you identity. What I called, "advice," for me was really validation of the position I was in.  You in your opening post were reaching out for validation of the position you were in. Looking for an 'other,' to contain the gaze of the inner critic and give your (I)ndecisiveness meaning. So, I simply made you aware of the other you were seeking is the inner critic to validate your position you labelled indecisiveness this awareness triggered engulfment fears causing to direct it to a part of my post describing this other that, I had now contained for you on an imaginary level. This lead me to the end of my first post which is my relation to the inner critic which you had now directed at me. My position to that of the inner critic which is, "well, that's just like your opinion man."

to clarify a bit more... .the signifying chain went like this procrastination > motivation what was implied but lacking in that statement is the lack itself. The rest of my statement and myself contained the lack for you and found the limit to your empathy and your cathexis was siphoned into a signifying chain in relation to the lack you then projected onto me. To relate to the procrastination to you meant you would have to accept your lack that had been associated with a "lack of motivation."

In your opening statement you had already left clues in that your focus, was to use the Freudian term, "ultra-clear[ly]" focused on the words "indecisive" and "guilt." Guilt is just shame registered on the symbolic level and indecisiveness is related to bringing imaginary representation into symbolic representation in the eyes of the big (m)Other.

So what I observed you doing is seeking to validate transferring your shame from imaginary into symbolic representation through the signifiers of indecisive and guilt through the eyes of an other. indecisivnes and guilt being ideal in relation to procrastination and shame which seem lacking in comparison.

The easiest way to identify ones lack is in an other, which is precisely why I made the post I did. To relate to me you would have to relate to that part of yourself you were seeking to deny unconsciously. Clowns mirror to people the parts of themselves that are too shameful to recognize as one self ie. 'the lack.'

There is other layers also to it I don't know how to totally describe that I will now relate to the absurdities clowning exposes.

So, perhaps you see what I did there?

I think I am getting what you are putting down, telling myself that it is not helpful to deprive others of my gifts or attributes. In a way it is withholding something that can be used to eventually help someone else. I truly do enjoy helping others and my work/education has been geared towards that inherent trait. The less I improve myself through advancement, then there is a lesser chance that I can make an impact helping others.

I understand this strategy, but don't you both think that it might be a little... .backwards?

What if you don't advance? Do you think that you'd then feel guilty for not helping others?

Although I do like the suggestion, it may in fact make me feel more guilty for not helping others if I do not advance.  It is convoluted, but it can be adding more guilt when there is already so much guilt present.

I really have four choices on how I should tackle this problem: solve the problem, change my feelings about the problem, tolerate the problem, or do nothing. I don't want to tolerate or do nothing. Solving or changing my feelings about the problem are in my best interest.

A way of looking at it could be, if I try ___ it may help me hone ___ skills, which can help improve ___  and can improve my work/education. If I hold myself back because of guilt never try doing ____ then I may not have the opportunity to hone _____ skills.

That sounds like a totally appropriate way to deal with those thoughts. I like the reasoning.

To me, this definitely seems like a solvable problem. I think that the pro's of trying will outweigh the cons. If you find yourself in a state of failure (say you don't advance yourself career wise), you can then accept those feelings, ride them out, and then continue trying new strategies of improving yourself.

Things do come and go, and sometimes things don't work out as planned. We all know this from our relationships, of course, but it's all something to keep in mind about anything, really. In other words, it might be hard to suffer the setbacks if you're feeling guilty about trying. A self-sabatoging circle triggered by one bad experience at the beginning of self-improvement.

Can you prepare yourself to handle them (the setbacks) as well, and still keeping going at it (for yourself)?

the demands of the superego or inner critic can by their very nature never be satisfied. The doings of xy and z to feel good about ones self which essentially are to satisfy the inner critics terrified infantile demands are always fleeting. Remember, they can never be satisfied and that engulfing anxiety will once again return. It sounds like on some level you already know this though and thus the indecisiveness because no matter what you choose it will never satisfy the inner critics demand and the guilt is just that awareness.

The inner critic makes the vulnerable child responsible for its own lack, a bottomless pit of endless demands. When ones identity is fixated on trying to satisfy those demands things like "procrastination," take on a negative connotation because the inner critic demands unlimited motivation to appeasing its endless demand of  filling the abyss, the void, the lack.

You saw the lack, I showed it to you and you denied it as yourself. The thing is that was your 'real self,' that thing we often refer to on here well that was it.

Accept the lack don't let the stupid inner critic make you feel ashamed of it because its not ever going away.