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It would be encouraging to those of us who have been painted black to know that no matter how great a man is (leader, good looks, good self esteem), he will suffer the same fate as any normal guy. Can anyone attest to this? Thanks in advance. 

 :thought:  Absolutely!  Borderlines can even slay princes (e.g., Prince Charles).

OK, seriously…

This question has layers of assumptions that might be worth exploring…

But going to the direct question, are there men who are immune (don't care) if their relationship partner sees them as all bad?  Sure.

Are there men that are immune (so awesome) if their relationship partner would never paint them as  bad?  No.  

Question:

Should (would) we feel better knowing that our ex will fail in all future relationships?  Why is this more powerful than just knowing that the two of you could never have a fulfilling relationship?

haha


of course no one is immune.


I could see how someone with strong narcissistic traits could last longer with a pwBPD. He/she could give the borderline an identity (as they could see their partner as an extension of themselves) while the borderline's need for attachment would make him/her stay and supply endless narc supply.

Very unhealthy, but could last a long time.

Hi Skip. Thanks for responding. My self esteem was damaged when I was devalued and replaced by my ex best friend. He has since been replaced by someone she just married. My ex best friend was not as emotionally invested in the relationship as I was. I was with her for years compared to a few months for him. I think he was a rebound until she met her current partner. I struggle with so much guilt for not buying her the ring she wanted so bad from me. I was THE ONE so she always said to me. She seemed so desperate to get married that my gut instinct was telling me that I was a mere object. I guess it may soothe my pain if I knew that Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, and George Clooney were also devalued. Maybe if that were the case I would not be so hard on myself. Believing it was less about me and more about her might help me recover.

I don't think anyone's immune from being split black. How the recipient deal with it, however, is a different matter - and depends far more on things like their emotional health, personality, and level of attachment to the pwBPD than on whether or not they're leaders, "alpha" males (or females), super-attractive, or what have you.

Fear of intimacy drives a lot of the "worst" BPD behavior. Pretty much anyone a borderline becomes intimate with is going to be the recipient of both black and white splitting. And when there's a strong attachment, the splitting black can feel especially devastating.

But in general, black-or-white thinking is a big part of how borderlines make sense of the world, so no one is truly immune.


Well played, sir.


I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with the painful end of a long, serious relationship, swimjim. Being devalued and replaced feels terrible, and it's completely understandable that you would be struggling with self-esteem issues. I did, too, as did/do most others here - especially those of us who had self-esteem and self-worth issues to begin with.

Do you think your self-esteem was already low before the relationship? Or were you in a good place with it?


 It hurts to look back and think about what we could have done differently. But you're taking on too much responsibility for her behaviors/actions when you feel guilty about not doing something like that. Buying a ring would not have "cured" her BPD or BPD traits.


It's so important to listen to our instincts and intuition. That's one of the best lessons I took from my own disordered relationship. I bet that, when you look back on the relationship, you can identify more times when your gut instinct was telling you that something was "off."

You say that you felt like an object to her then. Were there other situations where you felt like that? What do you think this says about your ex and how she deals with the world?


Her behaviors and traits are her own. You did nothing to cause them and you can't change them. These are her learned patterns and defense mechanisms, and she will apply them in any situation where she feels the need. Pretty much any person in a relationship with a pwBPD or BPD traits will be idealized and devalued.

Now, that's not to say we partners didn't play our part in the dysfunction. For idealization to really work, it requires a willing participant. This is where we have to look within ourselves to see what made us vulnerable to this, what made us dance along with our disordered ex.

But don't be so hard on yourself. You loved her, and you tried. There's no need for guilt. Go easy on yourself, and take care of yourself. 

It helps to work on radically accepting that her behavior was out of your control and that her disorder exists independently of you - basically, that it is what it is. I highly recommend this post for a better understanding of radical acceptance: Radical Acceptance - Marsha Linehan PhD (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0)

When you've radically accepted something, you're not fighting it.  It's when you stop fighting reality.  That's what radical acceptance is.

Hi.

There have been hundreds of examples of successful guys who went through similar heartbreak.

A few

Frank Sinatra, Ava Gardner

Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears

Josh Murray, Jillian (batchlorette)

Nick Lachey, Jessica Simpson

So what is an alpha male or female?  Any group of social animals, like primates, us, will stratify with the one attaining the highest rank becoming the alpha, with betas below and an omega at the bottom.  Borderlines favor 'control' as a emotion regulation tool, but does that make one the highest ranking?  If that's what everyone agrees, so who's doing the agreeing here?

Anyway.  To Skip's point, if a hot stud ends up crying in his beer because he went through a borderline spin cycle, that would mean that see? it was her and not me, no one is immune to her wiles, devalue looks just as ugly on Clooney as it does on me, whew, it wasn't me!  On the other hand, if an alpha stud conquers the mighty borderline, keeps her enamored, permanent idealization, then something is 'wrong' with us, they're 'better' than us, we must be 'less than'.  Much more peaceful in our hearts to accept the incompatibility, learn the lessons, and take new and improved out into the world, not searching for compatibility but expecting and attracting it, because we are worthy and deserve it.  Hallelujah!

HappyNihilist:

It helps to work on radically accepting that her behavior was out of your control[, and, untreated, out of her control,] and that her disorder exists independently of you... .

swimjim,

When you get to this state ^^^^, you'll shrug off a lot of your guilt and "what if's." Splitting you black/white was/is not "less" about you; it was/is "not" about you at all. That's a maladapted defense mechanism (someone seen as all bad or all good). Have you ever met anyone that was all bad or all good?

Don't forget Arnold.  Maria Shriver's friends and coworkers ratted her out for having an affair long before Arnold played with the housekeeper.  Notice though, when Arnold was found out Maria went to the media and played the "victim", when in reality she was guilty of cheating years before.

Also, she ended up costing Arnold millions in the divorce.

I would also like to add, no matter how big and bad you are, life will kick your ass at sometime or another.  If you are in a relationship with a borderline, they will jump at that opportunity to seize control in the relationship and you become toast.

I just finished having an argument with my ex best friend. He fell for her smear campaign when she split me black. He had called me last week to tell me she was toxic. I asked him why he would not come to me and tell me she was triangulating him in a smear campaign. Besides, we had been friends for 25 years. I told him I would have never done that to him if the roles were reversed.  He became defensive and told me off. Where is the moral compass in all this chaos?   I just wanted him to see he was a willing participant in breaking us up.  He shows no empathy and does not understand the betrayal.

I understand the moral compass.

He may feel remorseful, embarrassed, guilty, ashamed.

You said you'd never do that to him, maybe he feels like the lesser man? That could be why he was angry.

He sees she's toxic, he may feel like he jeopardized a friendship.

No, but a true "alpha male" in my opinion is a male with a lot of emotional strength, strong self worth, good values etc.

In this case the impact of splitting won't be anywhere near the level of damage to does to the codependnt male

It's also a very hypothetical question, because a very successful male (i e "alpha male" will have several women to chose from. I don't think he will fall for the borderline girl's idealization. My guess is he will see it through and think of it as overdone and unnatural.

We all want to be loved, but not all of us want to be sucked up to.

I like your answer. It is humbling to me to see that I fell under her spell that someone more emotionally grounded / healthy would not have fallen for the idealization. I wish I had some of the traits of the alpha male but not really to te Donald Trump extreme.

It is really comforting to have this family forum here to express our struggles. I can't imagine trying to go through this recovery without your help. It is nice to know that I am not alone.

Yes, and we can use that humility to look deeply at ourselves and discover what mental constructs and beliefs we were using to allow our exes to be attractive to us, when in hindsight they really aren't.  Trump need not be the goal though, he's more thin skinned and narcissistic than he is alpha, how about someone with an admirable cocktail of courage, integrity, perseverance, and compassion as their primary values.

Thanks Heel. Quick question. Marilyn Monroe was said to have borderline tendencies back in her day. Imagine her reaching out to you to rescue her from her "alleged" abusive lover. Are you far enough in your recovery to resist her and keep your distance? I'm just using her as an example but replace her with the modern day damsel in distress. 

I do not look like George Clooney, Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt. Not sure I'd call any of them true alpha males, though.  Smoking hot women melters, yes.  Alpha? Not sure.

I am more an alpha male of the Tony Soprano variety (in looks only- not sociopathic).

I am secure, self confident, surgeon, a leader in my profession (Chief of Staff of a hospital), pay more income tax than 90% of Americans earn in a year.  Decent good looks.  And most importantly, I am a winner of patient satisfaction awards and staff satisfaction awards.  People love me.

I love myself.  I have a healthy self confidence.  I am self-aware, from years of Jungian oriented analytic therapy.

Three BMW's, and a SAAB convertible.

What other "alpha" characteristics are there?

I have been married to a Borderline since 1990 (25 years), and have had my heart broken by her twice.

No male is immune to the emasculating, vile vindictive rages of a borderline.

I've cried more in the past 3 months than in the past 35 years of my life.  I cannot tell you how utterly toxic my marriage has become.  Not red-hot, yelling contest war matches, more the subtle, insidious barely visible emotional abuse peppered with the typical borderline rages.

She left me once for 5 years.  I received divorce papers on Christmas Eve, and put the envelope on my Christmas tree.  F***ing B___.

She came back and we re-married.

Now, I'm leaving her because I cannot take it anymore.

No man is immune.

Good luck with your struggle.  You are NOT alone.

Love,

Surg_Bear

Marilyn was a hottie for sure, that would have gotten my attention in a big way, but I'm really not attracted to whiny women who come at me trying to be rescued, my first thought is 'get your sht together and rescue yourself'.  The attraction to my ex, who is a pretty strong woman, was her intense interest and focus on me, at a time when I was lonely, socially isolated and susceptible.  The answer is to fix those things, which I've largely done, and if someone showed up today with that amount of interest I would probably think they want something and are trying to pump sunshine up my ass to get it, and that won't fly with me, it's manipulative and indirect.  If she thinks I'm handsome and attractive and she wants me to ask her out she should tell me that, which women won't do usually, so I have to look for it in her eyes, and if it's there, then let's go out and see if we can build something based on real.  

Thanks Heel. Quick question. Marilyn Monroe was said to have borderline tendencies back in her day. Imagine her reaching out to you to rescue her from her "alleged" abusive lover. Are you far enough in your recovery to resist her and keep your distance? I'm just using her as an example but replace her with the modern day damsel in distress.

Swimjim, I believe that your question is based on an inaccurate assumption----that the Non would know upfront that the stories of abusive partners were false. One would not have said clarification until entering the engagement, and, hopefully, at that point, being able to assess the validity of the allegations of abusive partners. (Not all stories of abusive partners/relationships are false.)

The theory that "strong" people don't enter relationships with disordered people is nullified because of this point. The disorder is not discovered until "after the fact." Avoid idealization? Don't we all do that to an extent at the beginning of a relationships? Isn't infatuation a component of the preliminary attraction?

Wow. Thank you Surg_Bear. I am sorry for what you are going through. I just got chills reading your message. Ok. You definitely spelled it out for me. Well appreciated. You definitely deserve better. Or should I say we both do. 

Infatuation yes, idealization no, there's a line there.  And I don't know about you guys, but I knew something was 'off' with my ex right from the start and chose to ignore it and go for the ride.  It crashed.  Ignoring can get you screwed, he had to learn again.

I'll stick with my opinion, we all idealize to a degree. Yes, it can be excessive and unhealthy coming from either party, but that's usually not discovered until further in. Like you FHTH, I saw things going in, but chose to overlook them. Was that unhealthy on my part? I think not, because I was looking for a turnaround at some point. It's only valid to now say that my overlooking problems was a mistake, that's an "after the fact" validation. (What would have happened if things would have turned around and those red flags were indeed temporary items?) I don't regret getting into the relationship with my BPDexgf; I do regret that she was/is not healthy enough for a prosperous and healthy romantic relationship.

Me, too. And had two kids even. I had a chance to possibly connect with a dBPD whom I've known for decades, and used to be attracted to. No more. I can't even fathom being attracted to anyone remotely like my Ex now.

I think the true Alpha Male is one who is confident enough to realize what's healthy, and what's not and act accordingly.

Sounds about right, I definitely ignored the red flags when we were friends and it was intoxicating when she became hyper focused on me. Maybe I'm old or jaded, but when the first red flag showed itself, the disparity between reality and fantasy made me leave immediately

This was me/us in a nutshell. I was a high-powered professional, and she attached to my identity including my professional success and all the trappings. She would joke that her friends' husbands were geeks but her's was a powerbroker. She would get giddy with my success. Looking back now it was very unhealthy.  There is more to the story but yes it hurt like hell when I was painted black. I feel no different than others here. I've been humbled in the most extreme ways and am still dealing with her behavior. But I've used this experience to go back to the person I was before my professional success made me what I became. If she and I were dating now, I'd have been painted black and cheated on within months if not weeks. As it is we lasted 14 years.

Turkish is spot on. There is a difference between an immature and mature "alpha male". The mature one, perhaps wise with experience, has the self confidence to walk away when he sees the warning signs the second time around.

Could my ex already be devaluing her husband? She recently reached out to my ex friend ( my replacement) to ask for a kindle back that I bought her for her birthday a few years ago. She did this behind her husband's back. He found out about it and sent my ex friend a threatening email to leave his wife alone or else! Then she contacted my friend after that and told him not to worry and that her husband is just very possessive. First of all, this drama makes her feel important and seems to be planned by her. I may be reading too much into this but it does not sound good for new marriage does it?

You may be reading too much in to it but even if you are (1) that's what a relationship with someone like that does to your ability to think clearly about them, their actions and motivations and (2) a mature woman doesn't do that even if it elicits overreactions, and THAT tells you more than anything else.

You're right, BPD is emotional arrested development, emotional immaturity. She lacks impulse control that can illicit emotional reactions with us.


I agree swimjim it's drama. It sounds like her H ( persecutor ) was rescuing his wife ( victim ) with sending a threatening letter and then she's rescuing your ex friend and saying her H is very possessive ( persecutor ) BPD is a persecution complex.

It's a drama triangle.

(https://bpdfamily.com/sites/all/themes/theme875/images/drama-triangle.png)

It just seems to me that this really has nothing to do about getting a kindle back. More to do about finding an excuse to reengage. Otherwise, why not tell your husband that you need to all an old friend to get a borrowed item returned. Maybe she sent the threatening email. I know, it should not matter to me anymore. I am just looking for more signs of the dysfunction. I think that she may be getting bored with her husband. I think she thought marriage was going to fulfill her empty feeling about herself.

That is exactly right.  How valuable is a used Kindle?  Can you get one on eBay for $50? Less?

I don't know anyone who would choose to save a couple twenties in favor of emotionally attacking 2 people who have no financial or other interest in the Kindle.

A reasonable person would let the Kindle go, and maintain peace in the letting.

Surg_Bear

Mutt provided an excellent diagram of the triangulation that's going on

and to add to Surg_Bear's post - yep. I remember leaving behind bunch of my personal things behind. Can't put a price on freedom!

That diagram is gold. As I looked at it,  I realized I moved from rescuer to persecutor several times in the span of months with her family and my replacement completing the triumvirate depending on where I stood. This board never ceases to educate. Thanks, Mutt!

One thing that I would add about the triangle is that the persecutor and rescuer can play dual roles as both the persecutor and rescuer at the same time, dependent upon how the victim has them in play. Sympathy (rescuing) can come to the victim from both when both are played as rescuers; they are played against one another. Secondly, the rescuer and/or persecutor don't have to be actual people. For example, God can play the role of rescuer quite well: "you did me wrong, but God has shown me your wicked ways." The triangle is complex. Whoever is receiving the sympathy is the victim.

But the BPD is always the victim, no?

But the BPD is always the victim, no?

Strong9,

I am not sure if this question was directed at me. Yes, in the context of this thread, the pwBPD plays the victim role. In reality, we all triangulate to a degree. You'll see it on these boards when the pwBPD is blamed for everything and posters come in and provide sympathy; that's triangulation.

Is this a good sign with newlywed couples?

Apollotech has a good point. Triangulation releases pressure from the relationship and it doesn't always have to be people, an example would be working long hours at work.

Yes as Apollotech pointed out we may be cast in different roles in a triangle and a pwBPD aren't always the victim. I would like to add that they most often cast themselves in either the victim or rescuer roles.

:sign_attn: If we stay and hold the persecutor role for a substantial amount of time, the pwBPD will emotionally collapse.

You need to see what she was telling you with her words AND her behavior when you start down the road of regret:

1.  You were THE ONE

2.  She painted you black (this happens ring on, or ring off)

3.  She slept with and left you for your best friend (this happens with BPD, ring on, or ring off)

4.  She dropped him and went to the next guy who was the sucker who fell for it.

Guess what is happening to new husband?

Answer:  see Number one above, and read further.

The cycle will repeat and repeat, and repeat, ad nauseum.

You were LUCKY that you didn't put a ring on her finger.  How much did you save on the ring alone?  20k?  10K?  How much can you actually afford?  How much can you afford to lose?

Just look at her behavior as it is- not a symptom or evidence of dysfunction.  Her behavior is all you need to put the remorse where it belongs... . 

Love,

Surg_Bear

Thanks Surg_Bear. That is exactly what my therapist told me. I have a list taped to my refrigerator of her actions. He told me to focus less on the label (BPD) and more on just her actions alone. I have a tendency to want to piece a puzzle together so that it fits perfectly together into a BPD. My recovery stalls if a piece of the puzzle is missing. For example, she is not a cutter, has not been suicidal, nor a drug or alcohol abuser. However, everything else fits.

I think a lot of times what we perceive as an "alpha male" is someone who has buttloads of charisma, and is in some way successful (the particulars of 'successful' vary by what the culture/society values). Charismatic successful females are "strong women." I think the "strong woman" label is less misleading than the "alpha male" label (why not just "strong man"?) - after all, these people haven't typically fought and clawed and killed their way into some dominant position.

In the animal world - which has just as many alpha females as alpha males - the alphas typically gain their status through physical prowess. We can't have people running around fighting to the death all the time, though.  *) And, interestingly enough, anthropological studies consistently show that early humans lived in egalitarian societies rather than abiding by dominance hierarchy. The notion that dominance hierarchy is the 'natural state for humans' is actually a result of civilization. (Human history is full of irony.)

I think it's very important to have role models, mentors, and people you admire. I don't think it's entirely helpful to rank people and then feel somehow "less than" (or "more than" someone else because of that. Which is what terms like "alpha" and "dominance" imply.


I agree... .this is strength and self-confidence and wisdom... .emotional maturity and health. This is a person who would be "immune" from a disordered relationship because they would never sustain one for any period of time.

And that's what we're striving for... .strength, self-confidence, wisdom, etc. So that we can attract healthy relationships into our life. It's not about being anyone other than who you are, or being better than anyone else. Comparing ourselves to others isn't helpful or fair for us.

swimjim, you said that you wished you had more "alpha traits." What specific traits do you wish you had?

And... .what traits of yours do you like? What do you find good and admirable about yourself?

I think you might surprise yourself when you stop trying to compare yourself to others and focus on what makes you "you." 

Thanks HappyNihilist. I used to have self esteem. She painted me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white Knight) to monster. It does not feel good being viewed as a monster in her eyes. Can you understand? 

I understand jim.  You had an identity as a savior and you wrapped a lot of emotion into it, made it matter a great deal, and then that was yanked away, making you feel gutted and worthless; the devaluation phase of a relationship with a borderline is extremely painful, and the reason this site exists.  The goal now, moving forward, is to make what she thinks not matter and disconnect your identity from her and who you used to be to her.  It takes a while, but it's fruitful work, and opportunity to dig and see who you are at your core and who you want to be, which identities you want to feed and which you want to starve.  Like Happy asks, what makes you you?

I understand swimjim how painful that is when we go from savior to monster.

You have a lot of good advice.

We can rebuild.

thanks heel. Do you know what was really bizarre about my experience about getting split black? I finally offered her what she always begged / demanded, an engagement ring. Instead of telling me she no longer wanted it and to move on, she called the police and filed a false restraining order against me.  She took it all the way to court but I had it thrown out by proving she lied. I don't know how I can ever get over her doing that.

Well, first by realizing that giving someone an engagement ring because they beg for or demand it is a lousy reason, something I might have done when lost in the fog too, and for contrast, the best reason to give someone a ring is because you love them and want to spend the rest of your life married to them.  Anything else is just a transaction.  And then the inconsistency: give her what she always asked for/begged for/demanded and she calls the cops?  What the heck?  You don't need someone like that in your life, and she is not someone who is going to help you maintain your sense of emotional well being, in fact just the opposite.

You probably know and agree with all that, but it's the emotional component that is the difficult one.  It really is about discovering what parts of you she touched and why, and pulling the hooks out, so you can build empowering identities based on your values and consistent external support.  You're doing fine man, hang in there.