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This is a continuation of the "Out of Nowhere 2" Thread... .


I'm not as stoic the last couple of weeks that I was for a while.  I think as the r/s betwen my wife and I improves, I am dealing with the emotion of things more.  I am recognizing them, feeling them, dealing with them, however, I REFUSE to be led by them.  

As far as my values that I'm living and feel I'm doing a pretty good job of:

Value #1:  Love my wife unconditionally and without conditions or expectations.  This is something that I have struggled with my whole life.  I wasn't loved that way as a kid and didn't learn how to do it until the last year or so.  The main thing here is I'm not doing it to my detriment anymore.  I have boundaries around this.  As things improve, I will be here for her and made that clear on several occasions.  

Value #2:  I refuse to put up with abuse on any level with my wife.  I am now doing a good job of leaving when/if I have to to protect myself.  Because of this boundary, things are much better between us lately.

Value #3:  I refuse to be a willing party in my wife's divorce.  I have basically proven it's pretty much a "in the heat of the moment" type deal that she did during a dysregulation that backed her into a dark corner.  I do believe that she thought I would give into her demands for money at the time and now that I won't back down, she wishes she hadn't done it.  It has made her look weak and given some of that control back to me.  She doesn't like that obviously.  I said from the beginning that I wouldn't aid her in it, be a part of it, or fight her over it and I haven't.  I don't take my wife's actions in this personally anymore.  She has a choice and so do I.  I've made mine regardless of what she chooses.  I'm not scared of divorce.  I just don't want it and am living that value.  She doesn't want to or she would have set a "trial date" already.  I believe she has backed herself into a corner where she has to go through with it, or drop it and do what's right for the marriage.  Either way is scary for her and I get that.  If she does go through with it, have made it clear that I could not be involved/friends with her any longer at that point and she can't handle that.  If she doesn't go through with it, then she has to confront "herself", confront the lies, and can no longer "run" from things any longer.  I'll be honest, that's a scary place to be.  I guess to her, that is a no-win.  Interesting.  I see the latter as a win-win for everyone.

Value #4:  :)o things that make me happy.  I am learning to do this and it's still strange at times.  I would be quick to put me aside for others.  Now, I'm not so quick to do that.  

Value #5:  Spend time with friends/family who love me.  This is the hard one for me and don't feel like I'm doing a good job at.  My r/s with my FOO is a strained one.  I hate the way they treat me, talk to me about my wife and tired of it.  Spending time with friends is hard because I don't want to be asked about my situation.  I have made myself almost non-existent to any of them because it's almost like they don't understand.

This is a terrific question from sweetheart, and a thoughtful response from you, Maroon.

Here's one part of your reasoning that I wonder about:


Maybe she can do this, for a long, long time still.

I hope I'm not misquoting GreyKitty here, but he offered some thoughts in your previous thread that sounded to me as though his crystal ball view of your situation was pretty clear: what you can do is hang in there until your wife's children are all legal adults (and can/will have independent relationships with you as their father-figure) and at that time you can decide if you still want to be in a relationship with your wife.

Could your wife even possibly be "comfortable" with the ways in which she is getting her needs met? She has you for certain things she needs; she has her kids for certain things she needs; she has the disgruntled women friends for letting off steam. She even has her kids' teenage friends for times when she wants to act like a fun-loving kid. Maybe her fragmented self finds this arrangement pretty natural. What if this is "as good as it gets" in life for her?

GreyKitty I think was saying the future of this relationship is likely to depend more on how you evolve than on how she evolves.

Yes to KateCat ML, it seems to me that your wife is getting her needs and wants met all round at the moment. This includes you meeting them as well.

Why would she examine her behaviour if she is happy with the way things are, a little bit from you, her kids, her friends, her church, her FOO etc

GK makes an insightful observation that to change the current dynamic it will have to come from you.

These are just musings ML, hopefully you don't hear them as provocations.

I find myself thinking about you from time to time, just wondering how long you will wait... ,,.,

I hear what y'all are saying.  I agree that she may be "comfortable" in life currently because all of her needs are being met in some for or fashion by many different people.  I do see the cycles that she goes through.  It is better now that she is learning that she can't just use me to relieve her angst or whatever emotion she is dealing with anymore.  I have thought about removing myself romantically from the picture for a while.  I can still be a coach to her daughter, but not be "open" to her romantically for a undisclosed period of time.  I wouldn't tell her either.  I would just do it.  I'm not talking as a form of manipulation, but if I'm not meeting that need in her life, then maybe it will allow me to see what I really do mean to her (and maybe her too).  Obviously, being "open" to her romantically allows her to fulfill those needs when she needs to. When those needs are met in that moment, she then looks to fulfill the next need and can cast me aside if I'm not the responsible party for fulfilling it.  At times, I feel like I'm in a box on the shelf that she can pull out when she needs affection or comfort and then put it back when she needs to hide me from the world again.  I guess that's the best way to explain it.  This cycle seems to happen more when I'm around people she has painted me black to like the other night.  One of our daughter's friends was over and she has painted me "black as night" to her mom for the last 13 months.  Maybe that's why she ignored me and acted like I was not there.  If I'm over too much then people may start asking questions, if they haven't already.   :thought: 

I like this a lot... .


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Q: What you describe is choosing not to do things for others that make you unhappy... .this isn't the same thing as doing things which do make you happy. Are you doing that?


If your FOO isn't safe/trustworthy for you, that really limits how much time you can safely spend with them. So that is tough.

If you don't want to talk about your marriage with good friends... .you don't have to avoid the friends to avoid talking about that. If you are asked, say something along the lines of "I appreciate that you care about me and my situation, but for today, what I need is to spend good time with you, (fishing, watching football, doing whatever, talking about their hobbies or family... .fill in the blank with what you want to do with them), and don't want to discuss the situation (crazyness, whatever you call it) with your wife.

Or say you want to talk about how your softball coaching is going. Or whatever.

I just shared this cartoon on facebook... .imagine the two kinda silly stick-figurish people for the dialog... .along with a confession that I work to remind myself that often people don't want/need solutions even though my engineer's mind is very good at looking for them!

"I have a sad"

"Are you looking for solutions or comfort?"

"I would like to be angry, then sad, then comforted, then adventure solutions, then giggles"

"Let's start!"

"Raar"

(And had two real life and FB friends say I was a very good friend   )

Anyhow... .really good people may get this directly and do a good job of asking you what kind of support you want. If you have this kind of friend, you are blessed!

Good friends may not ASK what kind of support you want, but if you TELL them what kind of support you want, they will try to give it to you within their abilities. And as you do this... .you are practicing the good work of being better friends to each other.

Finally, if your "friends" won't honor your request for the kind of support you want, making yourself non-existent to them may be a good choice. (Note that you may want support that is beyond the friend's abilities. That isn't a problem with the friendship... .it is only an issue if they insist on giving you something that they call "support" which makes you feel crappy and you asked them to stop!)

 

Maroon,

What other triggering milestones are left?

There is IRS debt... .  At some point that will be paid off... .do you have a guess as to when?

What about the debt for a 401K loan... .or something like that?

Any other financial milestones (triggers) out there.

You have weathered the milestones up to this point well... .

Granted... she can always "make up" milestones or claim things... .but it seems that those pass rather quickly now... .

I guess where I'm going... .is what is going to happen... .when all that really is left to "argue" about is the status of the r/s?  How far away could that be?

FF

That will take a couple of years.


That will be next year, but she has dropped that after standing my ground.


Nope.


Yes, the things that are triggering for her pass rather quickly now.  Honestly, I think being left with nothing but the r/s is where we've been for a few months now.  Things have been going well, spending more time together, not fighting, the kids and I are getting closer, and that puts her in the uncomfortable BPD place.  It's almost like she has nothing else to latch onto, she realizes that and now has to push me away.  Does that make sense?

One thing I forgot to mention is that she has been in "push" mode for about a week and a half except last weekend when I had my kids.  My family thinks she is jealous of my time with my kids so she makes sure to interrupt that.  I want to think that she also wants to spend time with us, but there may be a shred of truth there as well.  Curious as to why though.  She has been hanging with the "divorced wives club", last night made sure to tell me (I didn't ask) that our son is having dinner with his "mentor" from church ( I said, "That's great!" which I could tell bothered her that it didn't bother me), and this morning I ask her to join me for lunch and she said, "No thanks."  I just said, "Ok.  Thanks for letting me know.  Have a good day."  I am not going to put myself out there for the time being anymore.  If she wants time with me, she knows where to find me.  I am just way too available I think.  I need to be in a position where I can tell her, "No".  Not in a mean way, but in a healthy way.

One more thing I forgot to mention was last night we were at a late dinner after practice and I was talking to my wife about softball.  I am pretty sure I invalidated her.  She told me that another coach in the organization and I are butting heads because we are "too much alike".  Y'all are unorganized."  That triggered me and I said, "Not when it comes to the way I run my softball teams."  I could tell it pissed her off, but she knows when it comes to softball I'm extremely organized and on top of everything.  I didn't hold my tongue there, but I wasn't rude, just very matter of fact. 

 

I'm guessing you feel better about not "tiptoeing" around her all the time... .?

Plus... you stood up for yourself... .

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FF

I do feel better about that and the fact I stood up for myself.  My wife texted me this morning about something trivial that she already had the answer to.  I answered her respectfully.  It seems like she does this on the weekends after she's difficult during the week.  Almost like she's feeling guilty and doesn't know how to apologize.  Usually in a couple of hours when I don't respond any further she will ask if I want to get together... .

Do you think it is better to say no... .or to say yes... but only stop by for a quick visit.

FF

I have plans later today for a couple of hours, so even if I say yes, it will have to be after that.  I believe she is having trouble with the kids going back to school this week and our son being a senior. It's obvious she is dealing with that impending "separation" from her son.  Why the quick visit?  Just curious.  Afraid if dysreg?

You need to leave on your terms... .when she is still wanting more... .rather than when she is fed up and pushing you out the door.

Use your knowledge of push pull dynamics to your advantage... .

Best to leave them wanting more... .than wishing you would leave... .

Thoughts?

FF

Ok, I understand what you are saying.  My wife and I didn't get together over the weekend as we barely talked.  We texted a little on Saturday, but nothing after that.  I went and saw my grandmother who is in an assisted living community for Alzheimer's patients and she told me to tell my wife hi.  I texted her and she said to give her a big hug and kiss for her and I said I would.  That was the last time we spoke.  That same evening, I went to a "going away" party (leaving for college) for a daughter of mutual friends of ours.  My wife was invited by them but didn't show up.  I figured she wouldn't.  She tends to avoid get together's like this the last couple of years.  The first couple of years she "loved parties" which I now see as either mirroring or had no reason to aviod people.  The unfortunate thing is these people love her and want to see our marriage work.  They have been married for 20+ years.  They know she has some issues but want to see her get through them.  I lean on them for support as they are spiritually grounded, good people.  I texted our children last night and told them to have a great first day of school today.  They didn't respond but that doesn't change the fact that I wanted to regardless.  Honestly, I took it easy all weekend and just relaxed.  It was nice. 

Sounds like a good w/e ML, especially the socialising bit. What GK wrote about breaking down your friendship groups in ways that help you sort them as support v friendship is that something you have thought about doing to help expand your life in other directions?

yes, I have thought about it and doing better with it.  I just realize I need to get out more.   lol  I'm actually having a better time with my wife's "pull" cycles the last few months.  They aren't due to dysregulations, and that's a good sign.  I believe the one now is because the kids are back in school and she will be at home alone during the day.

Can you stop by and take her to brunch... .

School always messes up (is hard transition)... .my family schedule. 

I'm wondering how you can turn this to a positive? 

"Hey... .I'm close by... .can I buy you a waffle... .I only have 30 min"... .or some such thing...

Warning:  My remembrance is that previous overtures from you have been rebuffed... .have all of them?  Success rate?

FF

Last Friday I was rebuffed.  I texted her asked how the kids enjoyed school today about 30 min ago with no response yet.

I think she might be upset that I went to that party and didn't mention I was going and didn't invite her to go with me.  She knew I went because I was tagged on Facebook.  I knew she had been invited by the family, however me not inviting her may have set her off.  She didn't mention that she was invited to me and vice versa.  Just a thought.

I had a wonderful talk with my mom.  NOT!  She started her crap about me "wasting my life" and how my wife is "effed up and won't get better unless I leave her".  I cut her off and set a boundary.  Everytime I talk to her, I feel worse and question myself.  I feel I'm handling the situation the right way, especially now that I have boundaries.  I hate my FOO. 

     My wife texted me this morning and asked some questions regarding the team.  

    I decided to call her a few minutes later and ask if I could take her to lunch.  She didn't outright reject but said she was busy at lunch today as she had some stuff to take care of and then a meeting shortly after.  I said, "Ok, I was praying last night and the Lord impressed upon me how difficult it must be for you to have our son be a senior.  I know he's your baby and it must be extremely difficult for you.  I can't imagine how I''ll feel when (actually called my children by name, didn't use "my children" get there.  I would like to buy you lunch if you have the chance this week.  I'm here for you."  She responded, "What would really help me out is you calling my lawyer and signing the papers."  With my voice starting to shake, I just said, "Ok.  You have a nice day." and hung up.  I wasn't going to take abuse and that is what that is.  This boundary is non-negotiable.  

    I must have hit the nail on the head regarding her feelings.  In the past, when I hit something "deep" like that, she responds with something cutting trying to deflect and hurt others.  You would think that would soothe her that I cared enough to recognize it.  Why wouldn't that soothe her?  I know everyone is different.  I'll admit, that one cut a little though.  I am over it now as I felt good about how I acted and her reaction is on her.  

One of the things I learnt with my dBPDh is that unless he brings up an issue that is potentially triggering for him, then to leave well alone. red-flag I no longer initiate conversations around 'difficult' areas for him. red-flag ( his FOO, his diagnosis and treatment, past dysregulations etc )

I understand that your comment came from a kind and caring place, but it didn't soothe your wife maybe because 1. it's just too emotionally overwhelming for her, 2. She was annoyed at you about the party.

That said you did well to draw things to a close.

I know I'm always referring to GK, but I'm sure he said when did things ever play out well for you when you tried to initiate/engage with emotionally sensitive areas like this with your w.

ML what do you think might happen if you really limited your phone/text contact with your w and maybe tried face to face contact only around the softball meets? Just a thought.

Good point... .


I've thought about that.  it's definitely an option.

Last night at practice, my wife and I didn't really talk until the end.  I could tell when she got there that she was "on edge".  I didn't think anything of it and didn't speak to her until after practice.  After practice, we were still at the practice facility waiting on a parent and discussing tickets for a sporting event and possibly going.  Once they were done, we started to walk out and I asked our daughter about volleyball tryouts and how they went.  She told me she did really well.  I gave her a hug and told her I was proud of her.  As they were getting in the car, she gave me a hug again and I said, "Ok guys, y'all have a good night."  And I walked off.  I think my wife expected a hug as she was standing there, but I wasn't about to give her a hug after she treated me the way she did earlier yesterday.  While driving home, she called and tried to start a fight (something that happened at practice).  I didn't take the bait and just said, "Ok.".  She stuttered as I kind of shut her down and she said, "Uhhhh... .Ummm... .Yeah, OK, bye."  I sent out a team email late and she responded asking if she could help with it and gave a suggestion.  I said, "That is a great idea!  Thank you!"  I wake up this morning to a text that read, "Please stop texting my kids.  We are divorcing and it makes them feel awkward to get texts from you.  If you need to contact one of them, please check with me for permission first."  That is the epitome of BPD right there.  I texted them Sunday to tell them to have a great first day of school.  If it was such an issue, why not text me yesterday or right after it happened?  I didn't respond.  It must be very awkward FOR HER that I'm not abandoning them like her dad did to her and their dad did to them.  I'm still in their lives, I love them, they love me and she doesn't know how to process that or what to do with it at this point.  It's not going according to how her life went to this point and she is feeling out of control.  Not my problem.

    Here's the bottom line.  She is triggered because school is starting again, and she will be around people on a regular basis who she has painted me black to for over a year.  Our son is starting to see a girl from school again (dated before) and my wife is hanging around her mother who is divorcing her husband.  With extra-curricular activities starting up again, she can't really have me there as that wouldn't fit into her "victim" mold that I'm sure she has painted herself into with her and them.  This same crap happened last year for the first several weeks of school until she invited me to a few things.  It all makes sense.  The difference this year is she isn't dysregulating much anymore.  I think this time is more about being caught between two opinions.  

tough one bud stay strong 

Honestly, we spent a lot of time together over the summer and had a great time.  That is another thing weighing on her too.  I'm trying to be patint.

god i know how hard that is 

the more I think about my wife's actions this week, I realize she is mirroring the mother of our sons girlfriend.  They have been hanging around together since making contact two weeks ago.  This woman is getting divorced from a man who is having gender confusion issues (caught cross-dressing) and was beating her.  I think my wife is mirroring her and why she is acting the way she is at times the last week or so and bringing up the divorce again.  I'm not taking it personally, but I guess I have to be painted black to be "friends" with her.  As good as things have been with us, it sucks that pwBPD can't stop the mirroring.  I've worked really hard to keep my side of the "road" clean. 

my uBPDw mirrored her best friend, and the  fact she had an abusive mother! 

they have no sense of self!

I got an email this morning from my wife's attorney regarding the divorce that included a standard ":)iscovery Request".  It says I have 30 days to respond.  Interesting that I receive this the weekend I have my children.  When she pulls stunts, it's usually on Friday when I have my biological kids.  This explains more of my wife's behavior the last week or so.  She get's this way when contacted by her attorney.  Man she is weak.  We had such a good summer.  I'm not going to change anything I'm doing, how I'm treating her, and I'm not going to talk to her about them.  I went to pick our daughter up from her house last night before practice.  She invited me in for dinner and it was very pleasant.  I hugged our daughter when she told me she made the volleyball team.  I told her I was proud of her and that I loved her in front of my wife, she said I love you back and my wife smiled as if it made her happy.  I even told my wife that I enjoyed her cooking.  I noticed two days ago she removed me from our daughter's friends list on Facebook.  Weird thing is she didn't remove me from our son's. 

ML, I have no idea about these things, but at one point, if someone wants a divorce and the other person does not- can this be done one -sided. It seems like your wife keeps pushing this, and although you don't want it, how long can this go on?

I have seen some couples drag out a divorce for years. It seems the only winner in these cases are the lawyers who get paid for all of it. I've seen couples go through all their savings in these things.

One of my questions, is that I assume your finances are combined and each time the lawyer gets into this, it is costing you.  At what point does it not make sense to continue?

Even if your wife is just posturing, this sounds like an expensive endeavor.

Hi ML,

What does the email actually mean?

Basically, my wife hired the attorney and it is costing her the money.  Not me.  We have separate finances and households.


Basically it's just some forms asking basic questions about what I have, if I've paid for anything, etc.  it's not a big deal and it says to please respond within 30 days.  What it explains is her actual behavior the last week regarding pulling back.  She knew it was coming I guess.  It's almost like every several months they contact her and she freaks out, feels guilty and is too weak of a person right now to say she doesn't want it.  As good as things have been between us, it makes sense as to why she feels guilty.

It's her money, I guess, but it seems like an expensive way to be angry... .

So for my own curiosity- how long can this go on? Is it not possible for one person to get divorced without the agreement of the other? I would think this had to be possible as a spouse could be abusive, mentally ill, or unable/unwilling to consent, yet there could be good reason for the divorce.

I see in your case where you have a point in not going through with it, but legally, can she anyway?

Technically, she can set a day for "trial" if she so chooses.  In this state, they have to try to get you to mediation first.  She can go through with it even though I'm contesting it.  I still think this is more about getting a rise out of me.  Even if she goes all the way through with it, I will be fine. 

Had a meeting for softball today.  My wife showed up and the last few times we have seen each other, there has been no physical affection.  One interesting thing was our daughter came and put her head on my shoulder and my wife smiled.  Occasionally honey will slip out of our mouths.  I have tried to be very "middle of the road" with my emotions.  I don't tell her I love her and haven't in a few weeks.  We had lunch together and she stared at me and we talked.  Sometimes I feel like there is things she wants to say but won't (good things.  Maybe she won't, because it is contrary to the current situation.  There were times when I wanted to grab her and kiss her, but I didn't.  It's very hard at times to not say things.  At the end, our daughter hugged me and my daughter hugged her.  We didn't hug, didn't try to hug her and we went our separate ways.  Outside of softball the last few days, there has been no communication and I'm ok with that.  It's hard.  I do want to share some affection with my wife, but not a humongous deal at the moment.

     After a softball tournament yesterday, I went home and relaxed.  I called my wife regarding something about softball and we talked for 2-1/2 hours.  We haven't talked at length like that in a very long time.  She told me some things that were hard to hear, but no less true.  Nothing rude, but she does understand me better than anyone else (and vice versa).  I validated those things as best as I could and had to keep from being triggered, taking deep breaths, staying mindful, and not feel like I was being attacked.  It was a majority about softball, but near the end of the conversation, I gave her a big thank you.  I told her how proud I was of her for how hard she has worked in organizing the back office stuff for this team.  I told her that even though she hates the moniker of "team mom", she has taken over a lot of those responsiblities and done well.  She said, "Yes, thank you, and thank you for not calling me the team mom... .I hate that".  I said, "I know, but you have accepted those responsibilities as they are part of the "job" and you have run with them.  I'm proud of you for that!"  I also thanked her for spending all afternoon yesterday searching stores and buying cleats that were on sale for the team.  In a very sweet voice, she said, "Thank you for noticing.  You're welcome."  I could tell it validated her, and she appreciated that said those things.  I didn't want to let that conversation pass without acknowledging that.  Right before we hung up, "I said, goodnight honey."  She said, "Goodnight.", but there was an "air" that she wanted to say more, but didn't.  I didn't either.  I have really tried to stick to the idea that Formflier has put out about leaving her wanting more.  

    It's weird.  Each of the last two times I have received something from her lawyer, I haven't reacted, blown up, been triggered, but instead stayed calm, lovingly detached, and tried to see her pulling back for what it is.  I am truly trying to see things from her point of view and try to empathize with her feelings.  Both times, she knew those things from her lawyer were coming, and I'm sure there was some "shame" associated with that on her part and why she pulled back.  Both times, I could have been pissed, reacted negatively, and it wouldn't have gotten me anywhere.  I understand that at times, she wants the divorce, and at times, she doesn't.  I believe she is very confused.  I'm truly trying to handle this in the best way I can, in a loving way, and without being a doormat.  Each time I have received something from her lawyer, we end up making some sort of progress and things get "better".  After the initial contact from her lawyer, things got exponentially calmer and better between us and we spent way more time together.  Things with the kids got better.  I'm wondering where this goes now and how it continues to get better.  Also, both sets of communication by her lawyer are "Non-committal" to ending the marriage.  No date for a hearing has ever been set or discussed.  Maybe she is being "non-committal" on ending the marriage with her lawyer and he is sending some form of communication to try and keep it moving and seeing what she wants that way?  Anyone have any thoughts on this?          

The lawyer works for your wife.  He cannot move forward on the divorce proceedings unless that is what she wants.  While I have never been through a divorce, I find it hard to believe that a lawyer would push a client to divorce.

You're right and let me rephrase that as I don't think I came across very clear.  I think she is giving him the same mixed messages she is giving me.  I don't think she is in contact with him all that often.  That is only the second time in 4 months that I have heard from her lawyer.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think she is pushing it very hard.  If she really and truly was sold out to this thing, she would set a date for mediation and "trial" which is all in her control.  She hasn't.  There is a reason for that.  She dysregulates when she hears from him because she doesn't know what she wants.  Instead of her being honest with him and saying, "I need some time" or "I don't want this", we all know that pwBPD don't handle pressure very well and therefore she takes the path of least resistance with him.  That path of least resistance is to get them off her back.  By doing something "non-threatening" (Standard Discovery Request Form when we have no real assets or children, just debt), that gets them off her back.  In her eyes, that buys her more time.  Maybe I'm looking through rose colored glasses, but again, if she truly wanted to end this, she would have set a date for mediation and trial and she can do that without my cooperation.  Actions speak louder than words in this case.