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Its been a while since I posted anything in a long time. Nothing has improved. While she doesn't yell as loud or as much there are other things that she replaced that with.  Belittling in ina way that I feel my response no matter what I say either proves her point or tears myself down.  I dream of leaving and that is my only happiness. Yet there is a level af guilt that I still can't shake off. She is back to wanting a new job yet wants me to make that decission fo rher and is irate when I say no. I had a shot at my dream a couple weeks ago when she told me to leave. BUt somethign in my subconsious said no just drive to the mall and she will take some time to cool off and ask you back. I was right.

I don't do anything for myslef nor take care of myslef. If i say I want to do this for a an hour she says no  that will take time away from me. I've gain several punds and she has told me to loss some. When I get home and try to go on the treadmill she says no spend time with me. Then berate th fact I am not in shape. She will ask me to get soemthing while adding something else to the task and then somethign else. But can I do 1 at a time? No. Righ now nevermind that 1 task is that I have to leave the houseto complete it and the other means I have to be in the house.  I've never felt so miserable. I am told Ihave control over my life. Then why can't I see it.

The more acquiesce you are to her demands, the more she steps on you. Why? because now they think you are inferior and not worth their time, so they pile on stuffs so that you can prove yourself to them again and again.

You have to stand firm on your actions: for example:

1. when you are ready to get on the treadmill, and she begins to berate you for abandoning her. Look her straight in the eyes, and in a calm voice but firm : I have gained so many more lbs and the only way that I can lose them and maintain my health is to exercise. After excercising , we can spend some time together, is that ok with you ?"

2. when she is irate about you not making the decision for her about going back to work. Again, look at her straight in the eyes and say: I appreciate you wanting to back to work, but that decision must be from you because I don't want you to feel pressure from me. I can give you my opinion but the decision is yours, not mine. SO I think it would be unfair for you to get mad at me for not making the decision for you. Don't you agree?

Always ending your statement with a question like those above, is that ok with you or don't you agree or is that fair enough?, would you agree that ... .?

Again all of these techniques are just temporary way to get by. It could get old very quick.

The best solution is for her to agree that she needs to adapt for your own sake, and if not then, "why stay together so that 2 people can suffer. why not let each other free?" Does that make sense?

Sorry to hear you're having such a rough time. I too struggled with leaving for quite awhile. My health deteriorated. I developed anxiety due to the abusiveness of the rs, I lost about 15lbs in a couple of months and had to listen to how I lost it having so much sex with anyone that would have me. No empathy at all that the rs was doing it to me yet I stuck around, hoping beyond hope, for some improvement. Even after she threw me out for a delusional affair, I went back. Twice. Almost a third time and I still struggle with the pull even though I know how unhealthy the rs. The sad part is that while I'm doing it for me, it's easier to tell myself I'm also doing it for her. Loving her enough to stay away because triggering each other is no way to live.

What I learned was that I had to be ready to go. Until I was ready, or basically until my body refused to allow me to be around her, I hung in there. So don't beat yourself up too bad, we've become somewhat addicted to the rs. The key is finding out why. As they say, you may feel you already know this person because they remind you of something in your past that you should face. That, to me, is one of the silver-linings to this. While my ex remains in denial and blames everything on me, I have a tremendous opportunity to change my life for the better. Overcome the fear and shame from my past, leave my co-dependent traits in the past, leave the abusive rs in the past and move forward.

It's a daily struggle but I just keep focusing on baby-steps and giving myself credit. Credit for seeing it, credit for leaving, credit for remaining LC, credit for not taking her up on a fwb arrangement, credit for seeking therapy, credit for being compassionate and doing all I could possibly do to make the rs work.

Maybe review your rs and start giving yourself some credit too. Maybe once you start feeling better about yourself you'll understand that you deserve better. You deserve respect. You deserve time for yourself and a partner who understands rather than blame and belittle. Just my .02.

Hi Cipher, nice to see you posting again... .I was wondering what had happened to you. :)

I was trying to think of what wise, sage advice Waddams might post in response to this, but I came up short. 

I think the bottom line is that she will only abuse you as much as you let her abuse you; she can only control you to the extent that you allow her to control you.  Although it's apparently difficult for you to see, you have the power here, you have the ability to walk away from an abusive episode any time you choose... .or just walk away permanently for that matter. 

Work on shifting your thinking to the perspective that you will decide what type of treatment you will accept from her.

What is your current situation? Are you still living with her parents? Does she have the same job that instigated the move? Are you still driving a long commute to your job?

Gagrl We do no tlive at her parents any longer. We bought a house (big mistake). She hates her job again (nothing new there). She was offered a job closer to wher eI work and would have be ideal eventually. But she wasn't sure it was right. Also her dad had been telling her to stop moving around so much. we are loosing are mind and our money moving every year. Sh e knows and admits she can't stay inplace for much mor ethan a year. She claims its not in her blood. We have gone to some counseling, separate adn together. I know the T has seen in her what I have been explaining as she basically blurted out everythign honestly she has been doing and saying to me. We talked a little last night and I think we came back to what she beleives is her biggest obstical for her. She can't trust or respect me. If she does it will make her to vulnerable and she can't bare to be like that. So instead of takign a risk that she will be hurt again sh she will leave up a wall and remain bitter towards me instead.

Hey Cipher13, Why do you stay?  What prevents you from making a change?  I know these are tough questions.

LuckyJim

The lack of trust seems to be a common theme with BPD. If I had to pick one thing which causes the most problems in the relationship with my wife it would be her lack of trust. Does this symptom ever change?

I think the biggest issue my BPDw has is lack of trust as well.

But I've read that her feeling of "lack of trust" is actually her not being able to manipulate you - therefore she can't control or predict what you will do, therefore she doesn't "trust" you. Especially if she blames you for MAKING her feel bad, then she can't trust you either.

I don't think I buy that explanation. It seemed from time I started noticing my wife's behavior she was already not trusting me. I was still very prone to manipulation back then because I didn't know what was going on.  The lack of trust in my case was her conviction that I was having secret affairs. What manipulation was I immune to that made her think that?

You guys think of me as being smart?  Boy have I got you guys all fooled!

At this point I've got nothing to say to Cipher that I haven't already said many times, so I'm not going to add much new except to say this:

Cipher, at this point you can't blame your wife for your own failure to enforce boundaries.  You can't blame her for your choice to overfunction and take up the slack to cover for her underfunctioning.  Before you can address your marriage, the situation you find your life disintegrating into (financial impacts from the moves, jobs changes, the cost of the chaos you live in), you have to fix yourself.  I think your problem is you are so afraid of conflict you are willing to let yourself continue to be hurt rather than stand up for yourself and your own needs and well being.

Whatever it is holding you back, whatever the thoughts are that come up - whether it's guilt about her not being able to take care of herself if you left, if it's religious beliefs (boy is there some flawed thinking even taught by a lot of churches about God's will for marriages - in my humble opinion anyway), if it is some underlying nature that as a man you are supposed to do this, that, or the other for your wife, I'd suggest you start talking to your T about it and/or maybe posting about it here.  You need to get into the weeds of your basic beliefs about life, relationships, and how they are supposed to work.  Things that are habitual thinking, things that you just think "that's how it's supposed to be", and really dig in and challenge them.  Put them up to a critical thinking and tests and see what really holds true.  What is in your thinking that, however honorable or good intentioned it might be, is actually self-limiting, holding you back, and leading you to a place where you are willing to accept this abuse.

I did it.  It was hard.  It took a long time.  It took being willing to look in the mirror and realize how wrong I was and my own base thinking that was really a more habitual world view, ingrained into me, and just was an underlying nature for me, not a conscious thought process... .how it was screwing me up.  You have to develop a new self-awareness first and grow beyond what's really your own self-imposed limiting thinking.

It all comes down to there is something in you that is causing you to choose to stay in abuse.  Nothing will change until you confront yourself first.

There you go, Cipher. This is the "it" that this forum provides us--all of us. I don't think it can be said better than Waddams has just said it.

Well put, Waddams.  Loyalty is an admirable trait in other contexts, yet often misplaced in a BPD r/s.


I find this a pithy statement of the problem facing most Nons in a BPD r/s.  We Nons are too caring, too naive and too easily manipulated, with the result that we end up sacrificing our own well-being for a pwBPD who is often unkind and inconsiderate, consumed by his/her own needs due to an unrelenting inner turmoil.  The usual assumptions about how a r/s is supposed to work are inapplicable, as Waddams notes, which means re-thinking what works for us and what doesn't.  It's a painful but necessary process in order to come out on the other side, in my view, that is to say the side of greater happiness, which is what it's all about, right?

LuckyJim

I think non-'s are loving, caring people that go to extreme lengths to not hurt people, especially our loved ones.  PD people, however, see it as weakness and don't value our loving nature.  Instead they use our own nature against us as part of how they manipulate us.

I've had some real fireworks in my relationships because I keep choosing PD'd women, do my bend over backwards to accommodate, compromise, etc., then get sick of it, realize she's mistaking my kind nature for weakness and taking advantage of me, and put my foot down.  The fireworks come because she can't believe I've actually got the strength in me to hold my ground because I've already set that precedent in her eyes.  I have some friends that are mutual friends with my last ex-SO.  She confided in them recently that she was shocked I'd block her on FB and hadn't tried to get in touch with her.  She was so sure I'd cave and come running back.

She also went on to chide the wife of this couple for her and her husband for taking my side against her, choosing me over her, etc.  They've been nothing but neutral and just good, caring friends.  I've been very careful to not talk about my drama with them unless they ask, and then I only stick to what they bring up.  I've also made it clear they can say whatever they want to her, repeat whatever I say, or not.  I won't use them to hide behind, relay underhanded messages, etc.  I won't do anything to put them in the middle.  They were actually furious with her for what she did.  When they told me about it, I didn't really talk about what she did, put just focused on them and not letting my ex- drive some kind of wedge between them.  She only approached the wife, and did it when the husband wasn't around (he and I are great friends and ex- knows he'd throw her out for saying such sh*t to him).  But ex- is a divider.  She drives wedges between people.  I did point that out and just advised them not to let her do that, and reiterated that I've got no dog in the fight, I've moved on, they can say or not say anything about me around her, I don't care.  No pressure, and don't act as an intermediary for me.  :)on't take up for me, don't defend me, etc. to my ex-.  

But I can listen to the crap they say she might say and just say "that's cool."  I'm good with me as a person, I know the truth, I don't need to justify or qualify myself to them, the ex-, or anyone else.  To deal with abuse from a position of strength, you have to develop a strong enough sense and awareness of yourself that when they throw the guilt and manipulation and fear at you, that you hold onto yourself, your boundaries, and the truths you know and you don't fall to their machinations anymore.  You can do this in a gentle, loving, non-escalatory fashion, in a way that is not hurtful to them, no matter how hurt they act.  In the end, whatever they are trying to manipulate you over, there is an issue that is their problem at it's root, and you can't fix it for them.  Trying only digs your hole deeper and enables an already bad situation to get worse.

Totally agree, Waddams.  A Non's kindness is interpreted by the pwBPD as a green light for abuse, which creates an unhealthy dynamic.

LJ

Now THAT's what I'm talking about - Waddams hits the nail on the head once again!

Right... .what Waddams said.

So, Cipher, how long have you been posting on this board? What is different in your relationship now than when you first posted? I ask because I see no or very little change in what you say, what you do, or the results you get. You are just as miserable today as you were, what? 18 months ago?

I just want to add, and I hope Cipher you are still reading this thread, that sometimes people hear the stuff said in these threads, they are already in a bad place, have had their self-esteem shattered by their situations, and I know it can be tough to read these things.  It was/is for me regarding my own crap.  I just want to be clear, there's no poor judgement about you from me or anyone else.  We do want to help.  That's why we're on this board.

We're not blaming you, we're not trying to pile on and tell you how awful you are.  It might feel like we're telling you all the things wrong with you and it makes you feel worse, but that's not our intent.  You're not awful at all.  You're attempting to continue to treat someone you care about in a way that is loving and serves her needs in the relationship.  Nothing wrong with that. It's how you're supposed to act within the context of a mutually supportive marriage.  The problem is she isn't reciprocating.  That's not a knock on you.

I'm not saying that leaving the marriage is the immediate next step either.  You've got work to do on yourself, and that can be done whether you're still with her or not. 

Thank you everyone for the comments. I am not always able to get on an post as much as I would like. There is a lot to address so I will focus on what I find most relavant to myslef at this current time.

First I would say that I myslef have probably not changed much if any since I first posted on here. I am more aware of things but I have not progressed myself to setting boundries or even just standing up for myself.  Second I let things happen to me and do not stand up and stop hurtful comments or take action to protect myslef from them because I am a conflict avoider. So much so that I will absorb what ever happens so I do not project that I am being hurtful back.  Every single time I have made that attempt it backfires and make the whole situation worse. I tend to not even let a server at a restraunt know that what I order is incorrect so I do not hurt anyones feelings. I think that is the root of it all for me. My feelings be damned but I won't intentional hurt yours no matter how awful you are to me. 

Maybe some one can help with this question. Why does it seem easier for wanting a catastrophic thing happen to me and take me out or severly cripple me than it is to leave the realtionship?  Don't get me wrong I'd never purposely put mylsef in that position but that is merley how that situation feels to me when I think about it. I want her to be the one to end the realtionship not me. Becasue I don't want to be the one that quit or causethe hurt of the break up.  Thats lame even to see it typed but its how I feel. 

Hey Cipher, I've been in your shoes and can relate to your feelings.  I suspect many others here have been there, too, so you're not alone in your quandary.  I stayed WAY too long in a hellish marriage to a pwBPD due to my own rigid views on loyalty and commitment.   Don't get me wrong; I think loyalty and commitment are honorable values in the right context.  Yet on some level I think you know, or suspect, that your marriage is not the right context.

OK, I'm going to pose some hard questions:

What is it about your childhood and/or FOO (family of origin) that makes you think it's noble to hurt yourself in order to spare someone else his/her own pain?  Why do you hold to the belief that it's preferable for you to suffer, rather than have someone experience the consequences of his/her own actions.  In other words, why do you carry the pain of another?  I would submit that carrying someone else's pain is unhealthy for both parties.

I can't tell you what to do.  Any path is OK if it is the right path for you.

LuckyJim

I have been asked this several times. I have thought about it each time. I have not memory in my childhood where I can recall witnessing or being part of any such behavior. My earliest memories of myslef are that I was out going and thought very highly of myself. But once when I was maybe 7 or 8 I recall acting like I was big stuff for geettign all A's in school. I thougt I was big stuff and wore sunglasses to school. I was told by another kid in my class that was not that big a deal and nock it off. I was brought down to earth rather quicly. I look at that point in my life my self confidence was affected.

I'll take a stab at it.  This is a hypothesis, something to thing about.  It's also influenced by my own demons I dug out and am trying to expel, just being upfront that it's rooted in my personal experience which might be total different than yours.  So it might not be the right answer for you.  Only you can really figure out the answer by digging deep.

Maybe you are hoping some external circumstance will come along and save you?  That way you don't have to actually grab the bull by the horns and take responsibility for yourself?  I don't mean that in any demeaning fashion.  It's obvious you are afraid of acting.  You know leaving, or any sort of change in your actions to end the abuse, will be stressful to go through because of her reaction.  It can scary, knowing that kind of thing is coming.  If she were to leave, or some other circumstance ended it for you, it would spare you the stress of initiation.  Maybe it would even spare you the stress of the whole breakup because if she left, wouldn't she just go and leave you alone after that? (note - if she leaves, she still won't just leave you alone after - divorcing a PD'd person is hell, so letting her be the one to walk first isn't saving yourself much trauma, staying and digging your hole deeper and deeper, however, does make it only that much harder to climb out when you finally decide to).

Could be several reasons together.  Afraid of being the bad guy maybe?  I'll be honest, I hated the thought of people thinking badly of me at one point.  I worked hard on thickening my skin and being happy to the accept the "a$$hole" label if and when I need to.  Honestly, sometimes it's necessary.

How does it affect you when other people don't like or are mad at you in general?  Especially for circumstances that you don't feel you Does it bother you?  Or can let it slide off and realize nobody likes everyone, it's okay.

This part stood out to me.  Cipher: You might be confusing implementing boundaries with being hurtful.  Boundaries are not meant to hurt anyone else; they're about protecting you.  It's not a zero-sum game; protecting yourself does not mean that you are hurting someone else. 

If you implement a "no abuse" boundary that requires you to leave the house for an hour, that's not you being hurtful to your wife.  She might be hurting when that happens, but she's pretty much always hurting and you didn't cause it, regardless of what you do - it's the disorder that hurts her - not you.  Once you learn to stop taking her emotions personally (you can't control them or stop them), it becomes a lot easier to enforce boundaries. 

Her pain is not your fault; sacrificing your life on the altar of her pain is not helping either of you.