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I'm starting to see that I suck at validation. But I learn through specific examples. Can someone role play this?

Monday morning before work. I'm making lunches, she's packing her bags... .

BPDw: What do you have on this week at work?

Me:    Nothing much.

BPDw: What do you have on today?

Me:    Um... .well I need to... .Do you you need me to do something?

BPDw: Maybe I'm just making conversation.

Me:    It doesn't sound like that. It sounds like you're trying to understand my schedule to see if I can do something for you. But if you just ask me, I can see if I can fit it in or not.

BPDw: Why do we have to do this YOUR way? Why can't you just tell me your schedule.

Me:    Well I know from previous conversations it's easier my way. But OK: today I need to go to... .

BPDw: (interupting) well [something annoyed- can't remember what - annoyed annoyed annoyed].

I stopped talking at that point and continued making lunches. When I was done I went to her and she said she was offended, that I needed to apologise, she justified why she needed to understand my schedule to decide whether she'd ask me to do something or not (based on "how busy you sound", she said she doesn't feel like we're a team, she feels so unheard... .


I racked my brain trying to think how I could have possible offended her by what I said. That's probably a bad thing to try to do with a BPD... .

I did say I was sorry that we had conflict, but that I didn't understand what was offensive. She insisted I apologise for being offensive, but I just couldn't bring myself to. She even said "saying sorry for being offensive isn't saying you agree with me" - so I'm supposed to lie?  She's got such a hair trigger lately - probably because I've really started sorting out my own emotions and life - she's probably trying to make the old emotional control work again.

(In the past I will tell her my day, then she'll ask "so before work can you do X... ." - and I'll say "I can do X, but not before work. I'll do it at lunch". Or she'll say "well instead of having lunch at work, can you go into town and have lunch and do X... .". I have also said previously - "I'm happy to do X, but I  can plan my own day."



Anyway - thoughts on apologising? Thoughts on how the conversation could have gone differently?

From my perspective, this is where you lost your way,

"Me: It doesn't sound like that. It sounds like you're trying to understand my schedule to see if I can do something for you. But if you just ask me, I can see if I can fit it in or not."

That bit is making a whole bunch of assumptions about where she's coming from, which is a bit insulting. Also, this next bit sounds a bit judgmental to me,

"Me: Well I know from previous conversations it's easier my way. "

My best advice would be to avoid making any statements about her intent (like the first quote above), and also to avoid statements that sound accusatory (like the second quote above). Rather, just cut to the chase. Maybe something like. "I'm gonna be really busy today, no spare time to speak of." OR "I'm pretty busy, but I might be able to find a bit of spare time." Just jump past all the stuff about what she's thinking and how your approach is better... .

I can guess at why you made those statements. You've probably been set up before in a conversations like this. I've had those same experiences. I've also provided similar responses to what you wrote above. And, to be totally honest, when I delivered stuff like that, I was feeling frustrated and that leaked into my tone of voice. Were you feeling frustrated when you said those things? There've been times in my relationship with my BPDw when I've developed a hair trigger for irritation/frustration in response to any attempts from her at manipulation. Little things, that ideally I'd just let flow by.

Regarding apologizing... .hmmm... .not sure... .if what I wrote above makes sense to you, then you might say you've thought about it a bit more, and while you didn't intend to offend, you think you see what she's talking about now.

I'll be interested in what others think.

P.S. I do think you should set a boundary that you will figure out your own schedule. Good for you for doing that. I'm just suggesting that you might be able to do it without implying negative things about her. But who knows, you might say what I suggested in my previous post and end up in the same place. Setting new boundaries does tend to lead to push back.

So thinking about it from her point of view: she may be trying to find out my schedule to decide whether to actually ask a favour or not - in her mind she's being considerate? (Checking if I'm available BEFORE asking?)

"Me: It doesn't sound like that. It sounds like you're trying to understand my schedule to see if I can do something for you. But if you just ask me, I can see if I can fit it in or not."

When i re-read what I said now - it's telling her NO. (She arcs up when I say no in any form)

BPDw: What do you have on today?

Me:    Um... .well I need to... .Do you you need me to do something?

Here you have moved into her mind and figured out she wants you to do something. This throws her off. In itself, it's not a  problem, but you have thrown whatever her thought process was out the window. She is now scrambling in her mind to get back on balance. A suggestion here would have been to say "I'm not sure of my entire schedule. Did you need something?" (not ":)o you need me to do something? That sounds like you are doing her a favor, and it may be something that benefits the whole family. To a pwBPD, there is a big distinction)



BPDw: Maybe I'm just making conversation.

She doesn't like you in her mind. It bothers her that you know her so well.

Me:    It doesn't sound like that. It sounds like you're trying to understand my schedule to see if I can do something for you. But if you just ask me, I can see if I can fit it in or not.

While it doesn't sound like it to you, (or me) you have just contradicted her. Saying that "it doesn't sound like that" means "YOU don't sound like it is just conversation."  Had you said something like: "Oh. I was thinking you were trying to figure out my schedule to see if I could fit something else in." it might have been less accusatory.   Note that YOU were thinking it, and you aren't doing something FOR her, just fitting something else in.  Or even "What makes you ask me about my schedule?"

BPDw: Why do we have to do this YOUR way? Why can't you just tell me your schedule.

Me:    Well I know from previous conversations it's easier my way. But OK: today I need to go to... .

First, I want to validate that her being upset and needing to do it her way is not the norm. But you've thrown her plan out of whack and she's starting to dysregulate. Then, you've projected past conversations onto this one (granted, most likely correctly, but it's like saying "You ALWAYS do this." ) The answer here would have been "I'd really like to tell you my schedule, but I don't remember all of it right now." or "I'd love to, but I am making lunches and have to check my schedule to see what it is. Give me a few minutes, please."  

BPDw: (interupting) well [something annoyed- can't remember what - annoyed annoyed annoyed].

Plus, I wasn't there. We have only words on a page, but if you were even the tiniest bit annoyed because you were busy and she was beating around the bush instead of asking for what she wanted, she might have heard it in your voice or seen it in your manner. That's one of the hardest things to avoid. We have feelings, too.

This is one of those no win conversations that I have had with my H. Only I am the one asking him about his schedule. This irritates him and he will respond with evasive answers or defending his position of how hard he works and how little time he has. Then I get irritated because the question about his schedule isn't answered.

Why do these conversations go downhill? Because of the undercurrent of emotional baggage and the intent of what is being said- and both people are triggered.

Two concepts are at play here: co-dependency and the drama triangle- two people are vying for "victim" position and are acting from that. Also a motive behind them is fear- and an attempt to control the other's feelings/reactions as a way to manage our own discomfort at that reaction.

I think people struggle with the definition of co-dependency because of the meaning of "dependency". It could make more sense to think of it as reacting to each other and trying to manage/create a certain response in the other. One can think of "dependent" as used in a science experiment. If we did an experiment where we placed plants in different color light, and looked at how they respond, the light is the independent variable. The plant growth is the "dependent variable"- it responds to the light. Now imagine the action of two variables dependent ( responding to) on each other and you get co-dependency. For the plant growth to not be a dependent variable, it would need to  grow however it wants to, regardless of what the light does.

In actuality, we are all interdependent on each other. Not being co-dependent does not mean we just do as we please, not responding or acting in accordance with someone else, not ever doing something for someone. Not being co-dependent can mean examining our own motives for how we respond to others and deciding which way to respond.

This conversation is based on fear/avoidance, but when we act on these motives, the outcome can still go haywire because we are not acting from our higher selves.  For me, I was asking about the schedule, because I know that if my H is busy at work, he is likely to bark at me if I ask him to do one more thing. For him, the question sounds like "here we go again" but it also puts him in a bad position. If he tells me his schedule and I ask him to do something, then he has two choices: Say Yes and be the good guy, and then feel resentful because he felt cornered to say Yes, but he didn't want to. Say "No" and the result is he feels like the bad guy, and then, if I wanted to play up the Victim role, I could pout and say things like " you never do anything for me". Asking about the schedule puts him in a corner emotionally.

What would change it? Well both people could change at the same time, but that isn't likely. There are two co-dependent variables here, and the idea would be for them to not be reactive/proactive in this discussion, but that isn't what is going on. However, one of the variables can change by not being reactive/dependent. This may also mean risking an emotional response to a "no" but if that can be managed, the conversation may not go like it usually does

Wife: What is your schedule?

Hubby: ( answering with honesty and courage) I have meetings all day and a lunch break at noon.

Wife: Oh good, at noon you can run to the mailbox to mail this for me

Hubby: I understand that you want me to do this for you ( Validation) and I would be happy to do it. ( a positive response ), however, I can not do this today as I planned to work on a project during lunch ( enough information about your plans but not JADEing)

Now, you have an idea of how this may go- anger, hurt, and the temptation is to JADE and keep this going.

But you can say " honey, I love you and I need to go to work now. If you can't get to the post office today, then I can take it with me tomorrow"

This may not ever change your wife's behavior, but you may not find yourself feeling as worn down when you can change the course of these conversations and neither be reactive or proactive.