BPDFamily.com

I think it's strange and ironic that people with BPD not only lie to make their partners stay, but also to prove to themselves that they're bad people and don't deserve for their partners to stay. I can see in my partner when he makes up lies to hurt me how he's seeing if I'll still love him and stay anyway, trying to push my boundaries and making it so that if I do leave 1) it's not do to something TRUE about him, making the abandonment less painful for him, 2) so that he has the satisfaction of seeing how committed I am to him when I do stay.

Recently, my boyfriend had this very intense psychotic episode, which is what brought me here... .He was suicidal, self-mutilating, and tried to sabotage our relationship on his way down. This was likely brought about by weed and alcohol in conjunction with his medication. He's been hospitalized and came home a few days ago, so I came here to try to get a good sense of whether or not I should stay with him.

Well, during his episode, he decided to draw from good memories we've made and change them up to show that even during those times, he was actually "bad", or didn't really love me. For instance, using a mild example, he tried to convince me that his first affectionate nickname for me had actually been meant for someone else that he had loved before he met me and used to "refer to her in his head", and he passed it on to me. I don't believe him, mainly because the nickname is Jewish and so am I, but that girl in question was not. He's Hindu. Why would he give a non-Jewish girl a Hebrew nickname for no reason? Yet now that he's home, he maintains this and the other things he made up are true, because he's also never willing to admit he lied, even if it's to reassure me and bring back a comforting old truth. I think it's a shame that, when he goes through those times and makes these things up, he not only doesn't allow for the truth to come out so I can enjoy the memory, but he permanently changes the memory for himself in his mind so that he'll forget the truth, too, effectively making it like certain good things never happened. I'll never be teasingly called that old nickname again.

How do I cope with that? Is there a way to end the lying, or at least show a pwBPD that it's safe to admit the truth and enjoy it again after an episode is over and they don't need to hold on to that lie anymore?

Also, are similar lies to this one designed to make me jealous, to secure attachment? Or to injure me/crush my confidence so he can exercise control, whether it be by driving me to leave him on his own terms or making me feel more grateful that he's "stuck with me" during is post-episode "honeymoon phase", since obviously I should feel so happy that he still loves me even though my new impression should be that I was "second choice"?

Well, first, there is no way around their lying. This is their coping mechanism to color reality to either make them feel good, or to help validate them feeling bad. So, lies are a daily thing. There is no way around it. I have tried logic, reason, etc. even photographs. Unless you are video'ing yourselve's 24/7, its going to be VERY hard to make them remember or believe something if they have already decided to distort reality.

And the point is -- who cares? This is how BPD works, you can't fix it. So my advice to you is GET OFF the "reason and reality" train with him they will take you off a cliff. And remember, that BPDs can NOT think rationally at least all the time or to the extent non-BPDs can. And BPDs need to change reality or facts to "fit" their current emotional state. Sometimes its a good lie, sometimes bad.

For example, I based my entire marriage on thinking my BPD wife had a certain kind of life, history, parents, experiences, turns out it was all lies. The only reason I maintained the relationship with her was I was empathic to these things and had dated enough to realize everyone has problems. So, when she was "x", I rationalized an excuse for her to be "x" and tolerated it -- she led me along up till marriage and a baby. And took me 6 years to realize she is CRAZY -- and finally start researching and when I read the DSM IV characteristics for BPD, watched videos, etc. it was an epiphany, THIS was my life for the last 6 years.

So, learn not to CHANGE them, but to live with it -- that's the trick and the only thing you can do UNTIL you get them in recovery or to accept they are BPD and want to improve.

Finally, when you do catch them in lies, do NOT invalidate them, instead try something like this:

You: Honey, you said that you paid the rent, but we just got an eviction notice?

Him: I did pay the rent, they must be lying or lost it.

At this point, you might be tempted to use reality, facts, or the knowledge that you looked at your credit cards and found out he spent the money on products, strip clubs, whatever. But, instead of calling him a liar, this is what you should do:

You: You're probably right, they made a mistake, I am sorry that happened. I will take care of it.

Then you can NEVER let him handle finances again.

So, you placate, validate, and its all complete nonsense, but this is what the BPD needs, otherwise, they will just loose control, get emotional, rage, harm, whatever is the flavor of the hour.

And this whole dance is VERY hard for normal, responsible grown ups, I am a CEO, and this drives me NUTS -- its against my DNA to just pretend the truth doesn't exist and treat my wife like a child, but BPDs for all intenet purposes are children that haven't fully developed their emotional systems or their coping mechanisms. Thus, you can't expect them to handle "reality" any more than a 10 year can. And its a paradox, some have very high functioning jobs, Ph.Ds, etc. but at home they regress to 12 year old, immature children --

Welcome to the club :)

Funny story from tonight. BPDh was sitting on the side of the bed, and I was already pretty upset at him over some of his choices of today. He was making sort of gross noises so I asked him if he was eating something. I said "what are you eating"? He says "nothing", but clearly continues chewing.

This sort of crap drives me crazy. All those around him are sick of his lies, and it's caused huge issues for him, yet he continues to do it, even over silly, nonsensical things! After I'd harassed him(which I realize I shouldn't have done, but sometimes really, it's all just so silly), he says "a cookie".

Now, why lie? I don't care if he'd be eating a cookie, as well he knows. I think he lied just to annoy me or show me he doesn't have to answer me. EVERYTHING is power and control with him. It's gross, and at this point I'm super annoyed with him.

I feel bad for him. It's hurtful for me, but at least I can keep a chronological order of my life and enjoy good memories in spite of him, even if I can't bring them up again because he's changed them for himself. It must be horrible and confusing for him to not even be able to remember the past- good memories, or bad -correctly because he'll change them to suit whatever he's going through/needs control over at any given time.

I don't bring it up at all, for exactly that reason. To imply that he might have lied is immediately invalidating, even if in my rational mind, I'm simply trying to give him back something that he lost to himself by being dishonest. Good intentions simply don't matter. He'll hear what he wants to, and since he dislikes himself so much, all he'll hear is criticism. Instead of, "I want you to be able to enjoy the truth if you can admit to it," he'd just hear, "I think you're a liar." It's not worth it. I was just really hoping there was some way around that logic (or lack thereof) in case anyone had found some sort of loophole. It gets really disheartening. At least now I know, though, that I need to just accept it.

And oh my gosh, Ceruleanblue... .I have misophonia so bad... .Gross sounds (and repetitive, rhythmic sounds too, at times) just totally put me over the edge when I'm stressed or upset. I would have most likely had to walk away as soon as the chewing started, anyway, but if I hadn't and I'd been given some dumb fib after a difficult day and having to put up with the crunchy-then-smooshy sounds of a discourteously eaten cookie, I might've had to throw the rest of the cookies at him. ;P

All this really speaks to the point of a talk I just watched from this site. A Ph.D researcher that studies the levels of anxiety in BPDs and nons, basically came to the conclusion that as BPDs stress and anxiety rise they of course regulate up or down. And this was proven by MRI scans of the pre-fontal cortex (the executive part of the brain) showing that BPDs are under developed in this area.

Anyway, the take away is that normal people are usually hovering around "neutral", some are a little hot, some cold, but +-10% let's say. But, with BPDs they are not only hovering at +-90%, the smallest event drives them either over the top in one direction or the other.

AND -- here's the interesting part, the more they are in this hyper excited state, the more they can't hear anything and they reason even less than usual. So, the very act of trying to reason with them drives them to be even LESS reasonable and rational since the act itself is NOT validating. So, we cause them to spin out of control by reason itself.

So, again, I am learning -- you simply can NOT take the bait.

CeruleanBlue KNEW she was taking the bait :) But, I have done it too, because sometimes I just want to be an adult, not a parent. But, what she should have done is maybe said what's that noise with GENUINE curiosity, even though he was sounding like a cow chewing his cud, and when he responded "nothing" -- she should have validated the lie and distortion of truth and said, "hmmm, that's weird, I must be hearing things -- good night, I love you".

DONE.

This not only removes the power, but it does NOT invalidate his lie, even when he is being invalid on purpose. And maybe? he learns this is a waste of time, and next time he won't do it since he might be able to get a more powerful validation in another way.

Exhausting - just exhausting... .

Oh gosh... .I hope I'm doing the right thing by standing by him. It seems like the generally consensus is it's just tiring and nearly impossible unless the partner is in therapy, and even then, it's still exhausting. My partner is already talking about quitting therapy and he just got out of the hospital. Of course he's saying he wants to be with me and everything and apologizing for how he treated me before he ended up having to go, etc., but he's already acting generally inattentive because it was "my fault" that he ended up in the hospital in the first place, and he's already starting to go back in a mode of being deconstructive toward me. He most likely viewed me having him get treatment as a sort of abandonment/betrayal, even though he was harming himself and threatening both suicide and harm to other people at the time, so now that I'd determined I'd stay and join this community and it looks like he's effectively ending it himself, I'm wondering if I should just go. I'm only 22. I've dated him for 6 years, and although I'd like to make it work, I could find a healthy relationship out there with a person of similar good qualities who I can trust. I just seriously do love him, and we do have a daughter together... .if he could stay in treatment and I could trust him, I'd want him to be around me and our little girl all the time and be able to enjoy parenthood the way I get to every day. Is that even feasible? Or should I hop on over to the co-parenting thread instead and just be there for him as his friend? It's very confusing to know what the right thing to do is.

Christine Ann Lawson writes about this in Understanding The Borderline Mother:

"Some Borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintain self-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern. From the borderline’s perspective, lying feels essential for survival. (Although not all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But I had to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because she feels she had no other option... ."When the borderline is hurt or frightened, she feels that her survival is at stake; thus, morality is temporarily suspended." pp 20-21.

Temporarily?

My boyfriend lies all the time. It's maddening. He lies to protect himself from the consequences of his behavior. So he doesn't get put on the spot, or so the person he is talking to doesn't realize just how far out of standard normal person behaviors he has gotten.

I figure it out anyway, and he insists he and any minion he has with him, are not doing anything wrong. If I were not having to make important life choices based on his basic truthfulness, I am not sure how much it would bother me.

The lies is the worst part of BPD for me.

Just last night, my dBPDh was dysregulating over something that happened on Sunday. I went to do laundry and grocery shopping, and bought him some food on the way home because he hadn't eaten all day. (He didn't have a reason other than he just didn't, btw. "starving himself' is one of his favorite ways to martyr)

When I got home, I put his food on the counter and proceeded to bring in groceries and laundry. I put one basket in our room where he was... .all day... .laying around playing video games. He asks me "What's wrong?" I said "Nothing, babe. Just hot and tired." Honestly... .I wasn't mad about anything... .just friggin' hot and tired.

Well fast forward to last night. He starts going off about how much of an Ahole I was for not bringing him his food immediately. I couldn't "walk my A@# 6 feet" to give to him when I knew he was starving. Why... .I must not care about him at all. In fact, I did it on purpose because I was mad at him for not going with me to do chores, so I did it as a punishment.

     

When I said I wasn't upset or mad at all (JADEing, I know.) he proceeded to tell me he knew EXACTLY what I was thinking, and while I'm at out there having a good time putting groceries away (seriously... .this was said.) he's in there starving to death and blahblahblah. At that point I realized I JADEd and and I said "Hey... .I understand, hunny. No one wants cold food. I should have given it to you before putting groceries away."

At this point, the conversation starts looping where he keeps saying it over and over... .I keep saying I understand... .and 6-7 times I repeated myself. Each time he said I NEVER said sorry, and I NEVER said I understand.

I have said before I should have recorded him (prior to knowing about BPD)... .and he said he would smash anything I tried to record him.

Let me clear this up here. I'm doing all of the chores. I didn't ask for his help. I didn't expect it, and I didn't care about him not helping. I wasn't angry at him at all. I certainly wasn't trying to punish him with food or whatever else crazy crap he came up with. I was putting groceries away, and my intent was to take it to him when I was finished. Later on, he started to accuse me of having an affair, telling me he wanted to kill himself, and how he wants to leave. All of this is because I DIDN'T GIVE HIM A BAG OF FOOD WHEN HE THOUGHT I SHOULD HAVE.

A lack of self means a lack of appreciation of being true to your own values.

Communication simply becomes a means to have an immediate need met.

Truth has no immediate rewards and hence becomes unimportant.

Immediate need become a bigger motivator then consequences

Personal values and consequences are the brakes to dishonesty and avoidance, remove these and dishonesty runs riot.,

They aren't lying. Their reality is broken.

PwBPD in my life tries not to lie. And tries get out of "forgetting" about telling all the facts about himself, his life etc. But says it is very hard to get out of a pattern-of-action you have used all your life. I do believe him, there. Lying and deceit has been a way of living and he knows no other way to deal with people, or cope with difficult emotions.

Lies makes his life easier, at least short-sightedly. Honesty gets him into trouble. Of course, he is used to hide a lot of him (what he does and what he is), and is so tangled in his web of lies that the truth coming out would only cause more trouble. For example if some of his former exes realized what has happenend behind their backs, while they still where with him, it would cause a lot of hate mail (and other drama). Most of his exes are mentally as broken as he is and very hard core in their drama. And of course, like VoC and waverider said - pwBPD do not also realize they are lying. Truth changes and is too weird for them.

My pwBPD has also real trouble in understanding the concept of nice and polite honesty. It is almost like he a small child with aspergers... .Thinks that if he needs to speak the truht always then it means also saying out loud stuff like telling someone she's wearing a really ugly dress. And then when i told him no, that's not okay, he is confused and wonders that what, first you tell me i need to tell the truth and then you tell me that i actually to need to lie, a bit .

So I can also say that a pwBPD can be aware of lying. And can be trying to get out of it, understanding that honesty is a good idea (in theory). But cutting the pattern... .extremely difficult.

What Waverider said clarified a lot to me about why my boyfriend lies so much. He will typically lie to try and cover up things he believes I will get upset about. He will create a framework of lies, then fill in the details.

Most of the time I don't actually confront him about lies unless I already know the truth. If he thinks I don't know, he will lie. When I present him with whatever proof I have, he then refuses to acknowledge the lie and it's effects, but instead wants to talk to me about how unhappy he is with my behavior, he wants to focus on me as the cause of his lies. That is, he knows I will get upset... .and my upset is The Problem. Because if I didn't get upset, he wouldn't feel he HAS to lie to save himself.

He doesn't want to talk about what he is doing ( damaging relationship behaviors... cheating, bad boundaries with other women, broken promises and agreements)

He just wants to talk about how insane or crazy I am that I am getting so upset.

Like that will stop him lying. I spent ages complete calm and he ran all over me.