BPDFamily.com

    I talked to my wife on the phone last night and everything went well.  In the last few conversations, there has  been little hints of flirting.  What I've also noticed, is when my wife is starting to "pull" (in relation to the push/pull cycle), she complains of not feeling well (headaches, sickness, etc).  I validated her headache, asked her if she needed any meds for it, and let her know that if she needs me to call me (I only live like 10 minutes away).  Sometimes I offer to go take care of her when she is feeling rough but didn't this time as she acted like it was no big deal.  There have been times where she is bedridden with something and I will offer or tell her I'm coming over.  I texted her about 20 minutes ago to check on her and she hasn't responded yet.  

    I know that chronic illnesses are normal for pwBPD, however, I'm curious if these illnesses are masks for the true issues.  For instance, It almost feels like guilt, shame, etc. manifests as an illness when she knows she has done something wrong to me (got that email from her attorney last week).  It's almost like she would rather be ill than dea with the reality of what she has done.  It's like it becomes her way of apologizing, trying to make things "right", and pull me back in.  Not sure if that is the right way to put it.  :)oes anyone else see that or have any thoughts?

I have seen this kind of behavior with my mother (w BPD).

Which leads me to a question for you?

My mother seems to get secondary gain for her "not feeling well" to the point where we do not know if it is "real" or not. It is real emotionally but maybe not physically.

I noticed that when she came to visit me, or I visited her, she coincidentally did not feel well. This got a lot of attention and concern about her, as well as she went to bed, while I took on most of the household duties, cooking, cleaning, etc.

The "not feeling well" exempted her from potentially stressful situations.

Eventually, we kids started to not respond to these situations.  Many times, they turned out to be nothing. However, mom is elderly, and once, it was something, and we didn't take it seriously until she was in the hospital. Thankfully, it was a quick recovery and she is fine, but it illustrates the sad consequences of this behavior.

Naturally, we don't want this to happen, but we have families and jobs and can not be attentive to her all the time. We also didn't want to enable the situation as a means to call us to her side all the time. This is tough with someone who has abandonment fears. She's an elderly widow and we want to be of help to her, but we also can not ignore our other obligations to do so.

My question also includes your behavior with your wife. The two of you are not together, and you wish to have her back with you. At the moment, you are being amazingly patient, loving, understanding, available, and accommodating. This is a similar situation to when I visit my mother. The short interludes are not long enough to work much on imposing boundaries, having expectations of her, or rocking the boat. Although I try not to enable her, these situations are somewhat idealized.

In a way, what we are doing is more of a "honeymoon" relationship than a "marriage" and this is OK for the circumstances. I want the visits to be happy and pleasant.

At the moment, my mother is doing well on her own, thank goodness. However, there may be a time where she needs more assistance, and will need to be closer to where I live. I am willing to do this, but would have to have certain boundaries that are not as necessary when we are together on a short visit.

I know that you are being amazing, no matter what she does or if she pushes your buttons. You are being supportive during her "not feeling well " episodes, but is she getting secondary gain from this? Could you maintain this on a day to day basis?  

Big question because, you want her back and it is great to be kind, calm, and supportive, but what would this be like if/when the two of you are together all the time. I am not saying to not be nice and supportive, but to be aware of the possible pros and cons of running over to help her may be.

When I am visiting mom, I don't have other obligations, so I can be available for her. But if she were to live near me, it would be different. I have other obligations. It wouldn't be fair to her to pull a "bait and switch " on her and have her move with different expectations. I would have to address the boundaries with her before she moved. However, she is who she is, and so the responsibility is on me to determine the balance between her needs and mine.

I hope that you are your wife reconcile, and if that happens, you might want to consider how you can be supportive to her while still attending to your other obligations.

This has happened in the past so I am fully aware of this.  When we were living together, I didn't realize what she was doing, and would pick up all the slack.  I know that in normal r's, people get sick and that's what couples do for each other.  I noticed, especially looking back, that when things got tough at work, she would "escape" this way.  it got more frequent/  :)uring our separation, it has happened a couple of times where I have gone and taken care of her.  Once after a surgery for four days (totally understandable), once when she was having a migraine for two days and laying in complete darkness, and another when she was just sick.  


Honestly, her kids are pretty lazy and don't help much unless they are yelled at.  They aren't very empathetic to illness and a children of a pwBPD, I can understand why they struggle the way they do.  


I have much better boundaries with my wife than I used to.  i don't run to her aid much unless it is something I know she can't deal with like techonology and needs computers fixed.  Yes, she could pay to have them fixed, but I am good with that stuff.


That is a good question.  I think it depends on the situation.  The instance where she had surgery, that was a no-brainer.  Something like a headache?  No, there is no way I would go over and "pick up the slack" when she has kids to do that.  Because my boundaries are much better, I can detach lovingly from the fact that she has a headache.  I can say, I'm here if you need me and know I'm not enmeshing myself into that circumstance and be used.  I would still tend to my obligations.  I hope this makes sense... .


Thank you.   Me too.  It seems insurmountable at times, but that feeling doesn't overwhelm me like it used to.

I'm glad to hear you are aware of the "secondary gain" from the not feeling well. Certainly, it is understandable to take care of someone after surgery and through an illness, and not to run for every little thing. It does feel sort of cold hearted not to, but it is difficult sometimes to tell when help is needed.

You really sound like you are trying hard, and I hope she realizes this.

The physical condition is a mirror for her emotional mind set.

She knows no one can understand her emotion so she uses physical complaints like others use analogies, except she believes the analogy. This is all or nothing thinking taking over, she lives the analogy.

Worst thing is the general lack of self care will often cause genuine issues to get masked under all the drama.

While the boy is busy crying wolf, and we ignore him, the fox is sneaking off with a few sheep. The difficulty is seeing the fox when all we are hearing about is the wolf

I have mixed experiences with this kind of thing. Early in our marriage, it seemed like any time I needed my husbands help, he would have to go to the bathroom because he had an upset stomach. I used to joke with him about "You poop too much."

He always seems to be tired or have something that aches. There was a long time when he wouldn't feel right. Given his symptoms, I suggested that he get a blood sugar tester because I was pretty sure that he was diabetic. Sure enough, things got bad and I took him to the ER and he got diagnosed. Now, he will get cranky and blame it on his blood sugar. I know that having low blood sugar can make a person feel horrible. However, I get irritated because he doesn't pay enough attention to it sometimes. I often wonder how he manages at work because it seems like he feels bad or has something aching more often than not.

If I say that I am tired or feeling icky, he has to agree and tell me that he feels the same (or worse). It drives me crazy. I used to fuss over him. Now, I just listen and go about my business and let things go.

Here's another question... .

     I know things with my wife are soo much better and calmer than they used to be and I am thankful for that.  I have much better boundaries and don't get involved in her chaos or attempts at creating it anymore.  I have to believe that's what her weak attempt at "pushing" the divorce is, creating chaos where there is none.  We don't fight, we are happier and get along much healthier than we have in over 14 months.  I need some help trying to work through some of her behavior currently.  Since about a four days before I received the paperwork (discovery) from her lawyer last week she started to pull back.  I can understand that and I don't chase her.  I won't.  She did this when she first filed four months ago and when I didn't respond with chaos, things almost immediately improved.  Yesterday, we texted for a while and the last thing I texted her was, "You are a great help to me and an asset to this team.  I really appreciate you!  Thank you!"  It was in response to her bringing something to my attention regarding one of the parents of one of the girls on my team.  She has also helped out a lot regarding keeping track of things on the team.  She has done a fantastic job and told her so.  Anyway, she didn't respond to that and we haven't talked since.  I'm really trying to leave her wanting more and the last communication to her always being caring and loving.  my question is this... .She has pulled back from pretty much all physical contact and I am trying to be understanding knowing she did this for several weeks .  My question is would she be trying to trigger me somehow and find out where my trigger line is because she continues to not be able to find it?  Almost like an extinction burst, does that make sense?  Also, why would she continue to keep me blocked on Facebook?  She has for a year.  Why?  I don't mention it, I don't bring it up, and don't give any attention to it.  But what kind of satisfaction could she be getting from it? 

She might not want you to read what she posted about you in Facebook.  She may have painted you black, and her friends are now also posting negative things about you.

As we've discovered on other threads, SO many similarities between me and my husband.

I've been unfriended on Facebook. Previously blocked twice but he couldn't stand not being able to look at my page. I think the reason for him keeping me off his friends list has to do with accepting responsibility. If he adds me as a friend, he's admitting things are moving forward. He's not ready to do that.

I know she did when we first split up.  That makes sense that she doesn't want that to be seen.  Very good insight and possibility. 


That rings true.  I haven't looked at it that way.  That's very good insight.  She has told me before (about 4-5 months ago) that she "doesn't want to answer questions."  In other words, she doesn't want to possibly be confronted with lies she's told.  I find it sad that they don't understand that 99% of those so-called "friends" on facebook could care less what they do and wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire.  The people that do care would be happy for her, and if they are not, well then, that is their problem.

     I'm a little confused by the latest round of ST by my wife.  Yes, I did receive that email from her attorney last week, but we had still been getting along and communicating.  We haven't communicated since I sent her the text Tuesday that I appreciated how hard she has worked on team stuff, told her she was a great help to me and thanked her for her effort.  Since then, nothing.  I texted and asked how our daughter was feeling last night when she didn't show up to practice.  There was no response.  I later checked the team app that we use and she left a note (probably my wife in place of her) that she had a test to study for.  That's fine, but seriously.  I see some similarities from when she filed for divorce originally 4 months ago and she tried to pull back emotionally for several weeks with no affection, sex or anything until whatever she was going through passed.  It's almost like she feels ashamed for what happened.  That's the only thing that makes sense is she feels ashamed because no matter how hard she tries to instill chaos where there is none, I don't get involved.  I refuse.  I know I shouldn't worry about it and ultimately I'm not, it just seems to me that she is now trying to change the "rules of engagement" on the fly because nothing is working.  Her "bag of tricks" is coming up empty... .

Hi ML,

I've been following and thinking... .what if your w really does want a divorce, but is finding the process difficult to navigate, because ultimately the reality is just as hard for her.

I don't like talking in 'what ifs' because ultimately we don't know for sure, but we do know she hasn't let this go and it sounds as though she has created more distance between you recently.

It doesn't sound like her life is in chaos or that it is on hold in anyway, from what you describe she is living her life.

Is there a point at which you say I won't wait anymore? Again I'm not trying to be provocative, I just wonder... .

I hear what you are saying.  I do.  I have thought about that.  There is a few issues with that theory though.  First, if you really want a divorce, you don't put your daughter on your "soon to be ex's" softball team, especially when he isn't their biological father.  That isn't good for anyone, it is awkward, and could lead to something that doesn't end well.  A few weeks ago when she got upset about something, she threatened it again but said she would have her attorney move forward with setting a date for mediation and setting a date for trial.  I told her that if that is what she felt she needed to do, then that is what she should do.  What I got was a standard "request for discovery" from her attorney with a 30 day response request.  That is a waste of time.  There is nothing to discover and all we have is debt.  If she truly wants the divorce, set a mediation and trial date, shut up about it and be done.  I don't think she wants it, but I am not sure she knows how to fix it without fixing herself.  She knows she needs counseling and had put it on a piece of paper on her desk that I saw by accident.  It isn't going to happen.  If she wants to end it, she needs to do it.  She divorced her ex-husband so I know she knows how to follow through with one. 

I know my head would be mash potato for sure, even with mindfulness  :)

Are you going to ask her out on a date or any other plans to see her ? Is that a possibility for you? 

Your wife knows you don't want the divorce, right? I mean I've heard you say things like telling her to do what she needs to do, but she basically knows it's still not something you want, right?

My take on this is it's about power and control, and punishment. She has something you want: HER, and she knows that. And I feel she's making you worry and sweat it(in her head, not saying you are), by going forward with the divorce. You've stated that you don't think she truly wants the divorce, but she's afraid to back down now. You know her, so I'd bet you are right, and those with BPD hate to be viewed as "wrong" or admit mistakes.

I think like me, you'll keep getting this treatment until she thinks you really truly, no longer care about the divorce. I had to come to the realization that BPDh wanted one, or said he did, and this time around after much begging, I decided to stop, and tell him to just go ahead! File, do whatever. And I meant it.

I mean, if our partners really want a divorce, we can't stop them, and if they don't, then calling their bluff just may work. I mean, if they want a divorce, that's their choice, but somehow just knowing that we are fine with it too, tends to change their thinking. I've read other posts where that's happened, and it seems to have just happened to me. My BPDh did a complete 180 last night on the subject, when I called his bluff. Will he stay that way, my gut says no, but I no longer care. That may just be a game changer in how he sees our marriage, but if not, I'll deal with being single.

You've really dealt with all this you've gone through amazingly. Your wife may not see it, but I sure do, and I'm sure others on here do too.

A person doesn't have to be the biological father to be a good father figure.

I am going to share some of the thoughts that I have about my husband. They are all over the map. There are days when I would love to get a divorce and separate and then there are days when that is the farthest thing from my mind. One thing that I have identified is that I love my husband. He can be a jerk but I know the kids are safe with him. I can't think of anybody else that I would trust my kids with at the moment. Having said all of that, I am just not feeling it. I feel a lot of love for him but I don't feel the romantic kind of love for him. We make great friends and there are times when I keep hoping that maybe the romantic feelings will come back if I just give it enough time.

I am sharing this with you because I wonder if your wife could be having similar feelings. Because she lacks the ability to communicate and be self aware, it may be that she is unable to articulate her own confusing feelings. It is really easy to try to guess at other people's motives and assign some kind of intent. Maybe there is no intent there. Maybe she is just as confused as you. Maybe the silent treatment is her attempt to not get sucked back into a situation that she is not happy with for whatever reason.

I asked to see her in a subtle way today because there is some paperwork we need to do for the team.  She said she would "send it to me" this evening.  Yeah... .I'm still waiting on it.  I'm not going to ask her anymore.  Im done being turned down because she has control issues.  I love spending time with her and I do miss her, but not to the point of me always asking.


Thank you and yes.  My wife knows I don't want it.  I always tell her that I don't want it when I tell her that if she wants to go through with it then that is what she needs to do.  I'm not sure what acting like I don't care about the divorce looks like.  I feel that goes against my values but maybe since I don't know what it looks like, how can I say it goes against my values.  My thing is, I care very much about wanting our marriage to work.  I know that it won't if she won't be involved in the resolving of things.  Sometimes I feel like if I contact her attorney and tell him what I want to end the marriage, it may change some things with our r/s.  Then I look at it as going back on my values and she may see it as a way to fight and keep the chaos going.  I'm doing my very best to NOT fight.  If I tell her what I want, she'll find a way to fight over those things.  My thing is, she needs to be responsible for this choice in her life.  I'm a good man, good husband and a good father.  She needs to feel the full responsibility for throwing that away if she so chooses.  I've stuck to my guns and I'm very proud of myself.  She doesn't like that.  It seems to me that she tries to trigger me lately.

     I will be honest, I think right now she is hanging around the "divorced wives club" (a woman she has been friends with for a while whose daughter and our son are seeing each other and going to a school dance together probably).  This isn't the first time they have seen each other and it flames out every time because he goes for all the wrong girls.  He usually ends up dropping her.  its sad that friendships are more important to her currently than a man who loves her and her children.  It's very sad. 

VOC, what you said makes sense.  Maybe she doesn't know how to properly communicate. 

So earlier today, we had a get together for my softball team for a "team building" event/party at one of my players parents house.  Most of the parents know my wife and I and they all know we are separated but they knew us when we were still living together.  To bring you up to speed, for the last week, my wife and I have barely talked except about "surface stuff" like softball.  I don't call or text as I don't have a reason to.  I did ask her to get together last night to go over something for softball together and she basically ignored the question and told me she would send me the info.  Other than that, I have stopped asking.  I'm tired of making all the effort toward getting together at this point.  For whatever reason, she isn't interested right now, and frankly, I'm ok with that because I'm tired of making all the effort.  Anyway, back to today... .At the party, my wife and I got there at the same time.  While there, when conversations came up, she would make sure to add comments about us doing stuff together, as if it happens all the time.  I didn't think anything of it really at first.  But she was kind of overboard with it at times.  At least it seemed that way to me.  It was strange.  She stared at me a lot (in a good way), and would make efforts to be close to me.  I didn't go out of my way to make conversation with her as I am not going to do that anymore.  There was one time where she asked if anyone wanted to watch a game with her (while looking directly at me) and no one went and sat with her.  It's not that I didn't want to, but I'm not going to look like a puppy dog!  I sat and talked to my assistant coach, and then went outside and talked to the girls on my team.  While outside, she came and stood next to me and flirted with me.  At the end of the party, we cleaned up their backyard and packed up to leave.  While leaving, I said goodbye to my kids, told them I loved them, goodbye to our daughter, told her I loved her and got in my car and left.  She walked to her car and got in.  She didn't say bye to me and I wasn't going to go out of my way to do the same.  I drove off and about 15 minutes later, she called to ask about something that happened at the party.  It's almost like she couldn't stand that I didn't go out of my way to be around her, nor did I call her afterwards.  I couldn't do it.  She called me.  Not really sure what her deal was at the party with bringing up things that we have done, but not in a while.  Weird.  Anyone have any thoughts?

It sounds like she is trying to shape the group's perception, but since they know that you are separated I can't see the reason either.

I just wonder whether she is confused about how to disengage from you, what that feels like, how to behave. Hence the confused messages from her in a social setting where you are both known.

Her behaviour has to me most definitely changed ( going on what you write )  this last month or so and has been at its most consistent re levelling out of her previous push/pull behaviours.

What do you want to do short/long term ML? Do you have thoughts about where you are in all of this, what do you want to happen for you to reengage?

What do you mean confused about how to disengage?  


What do I want?  That is a very loaded question.  I'm having a very emotional day.  I miss my wife today.  I miss our companionship.  I feel lost today.  I'm having questions about whether I'm handling this all correctly.  I want to reengage, but not feel like I look weak... .I want to be strong and the grounded one.

I hear you ML. I'm really very sorry things are so difficult today, I know that this whole process must be leaving you very confused and upset.

Why wouldn't you miss your wife and her presence in your life... .your family.

When I read your posts I am always left wondering about reengagement, because your wife I don't believe is able to do this.

The questions around reengagement seem to me to be an important area for you to consider moving towards. Otherwise it feels to me like you become stuck.

Where are the feelings of weakness coming from? What is that about ?

It seems to me that over the last 14 months you have moved toward a place that is increasingly more strong and grounded.

Is there fear that if you reach out and attempt to reengage, you will trigger your wife into ending the marriage?

I guess I don't know what reengagement looks like in our current situation.  I thought I've done everything I could to re-engage.  To me,  if I'm always the one to re-engage, it makes me look weak.  Doesn't it?  How do I go about re-engaging in my current situation?

 No I don't think it makes you look weak at all, not at all, but it sounds like it's bothering you a lot.

I think that maybe you have to take some risks, because as things stand you are not in an active relationship anymore.

If reaching out meets with the same triggered responses, or no responses at all then maybe you start to consider how long more are you really going to wait. Or whether you've done as much as you can and you start to consider what ending your marriage looks like.

I don't know what reengagement looks like for you either, but it seems to me that you as the emotionally healthy partner would be the one to reach out to see if your wife is willing to reconnect with you. Whether or not your marriage can be resumed but within healthier parameters.

I can't think of another way for you to know... .what do you think you could do?

Can you work through some options here and see how they look ?

Well, I tried.  I called her and asked if I could cook them dinner and watch a football game together (we both love football).  She said she had "too much to do this evening" and I said, "Ok.  How about later this week then?"  She said, "No thanks."  I was not pissed, not hurt, just felt "done" and said, "Ok, well, have a good evening" and we said bye and that was it.  A part of me is at the point where I am living out the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.  I believe I am at the point where I need to do something different.  I think she feels like I will be here no matter what.  Maybe the best thing for her is that I'm not.  I'm seriously considering emailing her lawyer and her this evening, telling them what I want from the marriage and saying if she will agree, I will sign the papers.  At this point, what's the worst that could happen?  I'd be in no worse position than I am now.  If she thinks I'll be her no matter what, maybe that will be a dose of reality for her as well.

What I meant in my earlier reply about your wife being confused about how to disengage, is that maybe that's exactly what she's been trying to do. She has been consistent without dysregulation now in declining to see you in a romantic way for a while now.

However when she sees you in person her messages are still somewhat mixed, maybe because it's hard for her to end her marriage too.

I don't know this, it's all just supposition, but perhaps it's important to allow room emotionally for this possibility.

I can't tell you what to do for the best ML, I don't know, but your life is on hold waiting for your wife. Which as you say is driving you crazy.

I am allowing room for this as a possibility.  I talked with someone I trust who last night who has been married for over 20 years and he gave me the advice to continue to go with how I have handled it.  I prayed about his advice and felt a release that it was the right thing for me.  He and his wife have known the entire situation, has known us for 6 years, and says that having her be fully responsible is the right thing.  He says that knowing her like he does, the divorce is not what she wants, but feels like she has "gone too far and backed herself into a corner".  He feels like she is pushing me to be partially responsible so she can feel better about it.  I've also thought about replying to her attorney regarding the ":)iscovery Request" email but not in a way they are wanting.  I've thought about replying from a standpoint of the husband that wants the marriage to work and not being pulled into this "unnecessary fighting".

I've also thought about replying to her attorney regarding the ":)iscovery Request" email but not in a way they are wanting.  I've thought about replying from a standpoint of the husband that wants the marriage to work and not being pulled into this "unnecessary fighting"

What might that possible response look like ?

So far, what I have is:

Ms. [Attorney's name},

    I received your email regarding the "discovery request" sent forth by your office.  After prayerfully considering your email the last several weeks, I have decided that it isn't in the best interest of my marriage to respond to this request.  I understand that you have a job that you were hired to do and I believe you are representing your client to the best of your ability.  As you have responsiblities that come with your job, I have responsibilities as a husband also.  As a husband, it is my job to continually seek God's will, continue to stand for my marriage, for our children that we raise, and refuse to be involved in the negativity that these proceedings can incur.  I understand that my wife has made choices with your office that seem contrary to the marriage, however, she has said things to me over these same months that make me believe that divorce isn't the option she desires either... .

That's all I have so far... .

I like it ML, I think it sounds like a authentic, honest response that says where you're at. Perhaps you could suggest that the L uses your response to help your wife make an 'informed decision' on what her options are, given that you do not want to proceed with the request, or something like that?

This is not something I know anything about, have you thought of asking on the Legal board at all?

But I still like your response, it's true to you.

That's a good idea!


I will do that this evening or tomorrow at some point.  They would like a response within the next 19 days.

     Still funny to me how things with pwBPD can change.  Two days ago, my wife didn't want to spend anytime with me, and now, I guess that has changed... .Last night after practice was the first time (in almost a year) where my wife and I had a phone conversation where we talked for a total of 2-1/2 hours.  Our first conversation was about 30 minutes and mostly about softball.  She was telling me some of the things parents were saying and I validated those things and she even took up for me to one of them.  I thanked her for "having my back" and she said, "Well, they come to me as your wife and I feel like I need to."  I took that as a good thing, but I just let that one simmer with her and validated other things she said.  When we hung up, I texted her and told her how much I appreciated the fact that she had my back. 

     About 20 minutes later she called me back and that's when we talked for 2 hours.  The next conversation, she asked me some questions about "our daughter" (her words).  Funny, the other day it was "her children".   :)  Anyway, her exact words were, "Speaking of our daughter, what do you think about... ."  It wasn't a no-win type of question, but she was genuinely asking what I thought and actually wanted my input.  I was actually shocked she asked me, and even more shocked she used the "our daughter" moniker.  I never acted like it shocked me or anything, I just continued on in the conversation.  She told me her first volleyball game was Thursday and I told her I would like to go.  She said, "Yes, please... .Of course."  She told me when her games were and what our other kids were involved in and when they were.  It was weird because I refuse to think too much into this, (part of the cycle) and as I have the last few months, will just take each day as it comes.  The more I stay centered with my emotions and not react to hers or her bait, the more she comes around.  Thoughts?

Yes, I think this is very true, until... .she starts devaluing again, when it gets to be too close for comfort or whatever her particular triggers are that set her off (which sometimes have absolutely nothing to do with us, only we think they might so we get triggered ourselves and create problems where there weren't any to begin with).

If you're happy and content with the way things are, living in separate households, having the strength and stamina of your own to withstand her outbursts (whatever they might look like), accept her for who she is without trying to change her, then yea, the more you stay centered in your own emotions, the more peaceful your life will be.

If you ultimately want to live together again, then prepare yourself for more devaluing.  If you're looking for the white picket fence, then buy a house and put one up, for you.  No expectations that she's going to happily skip along and forever be the loving wife by your side who never has bad days.

Be true to who you are, while not trying to change her.  Enjoy all the good stuff because that IS your reality of the moment!  Personally, I refuse to not enjoy my time or our good times together; I'm not on pins and needles waiting for the axe to fall.  It will!  I can't change that.  And I look forward to all kinds of things, including his emotional support.  You just gotta know when now is not the time; we're not the only one's to have boundaries.

Respect her and yourself :)

Being true to who I am is definitely what I am doing better at lately.  Case in point was yesterday.  Our daughter had her first volleyball game of the season and she also sang the national anthem (which I didn't know was happening until I got there).  Anyway, I texted my wife midday yesterday to ask her what time the game started as I thought she told me 6:30 and wanted to make sure.  She didn't respond.  She hasn't communicated with me much since we talked on the phone for 2-1/2 hours the other night.  That part of her disorder is a BIG turnoff for me I'm realizing and easier to help not take things she does personally.  I didn't let it bother me nor did I let it stop me from going.  I decided I'm taking that control out of her hands going forward regarding the kids events.  Anyway, I looked on the school website and found out her game started at 5:30.  I actually beat my wife to the school and when I walked in, our daughter gave me a big smile and waved at me.  I smiled and waved back.  I was glad I could make her happy.  A few minutes later, our older daughter walked into the gym and came up to me and asked me if I had any cash they could borrow to get in.  I smiled and said, "No, sorry, I don't.  I had two one dollar bils on me to get in and thankfully that is all it was or I would have had to go to the ATM machine."  She said ok and walked back to her mom who was standing talking to the lady taking money.  They left and drove to the ATM and then came back.  I had to laugh inside.  She ignores me about what time the game started and then asks me for money when she got there and I didn't have anymore cash.  When she came back, she walked in, and then sat next to me and our older daughter on the other side of her.  Our daughter did an amazing job with the anthem and was very proud of her!  My wife acted very strange for the first part of the game.  I figured it was because I showed up without "needing" information from her.  I don't remember how we got on the subject, but I said in front of our older daughter, "I figured you must have been extremely busy today when you didn't answer about what time the game started.  I went on to the school website and found the times.  Thankfully they put them on there."  Her response was strange.  She said, "I still haven't been given a schedule from our daughter (actually used her name)".  I just responded with, "Hmmm... ."     Funny how she knew what time to show up.   lol  After that, she was more conversational with me and I talked a lot with our older daughter about school among other things but that I cared enough to find out the info for myself.  Anyway, after the game was over, we walked out and my wife and our older daughter (younger daughter had to stay for another game) started walking towards their car while talking.  It was almost like I wasn't there and just looked over at them and said, "Bye y'all!"  My wife looked back and said real nonchalantly, "Bye."  It was weird.  You would have thought I was an acquaintance or someone she had just met.  I started to get irritated by it as I got in my car, but just shook it off and drove off.  I was there for our daughter and accomplished that.  I was happy with that and wasn't going to let my wife's behavior get me down.

In some ways I wonder if you might be better off living in your apartment than in the same house.  At least you can avoid more of her dysregulations if you are not in the same house, which probably helps to keep you grounded.  The hope is that you can find more good times, though, which probably won't happen until she decides to drop the divorce proceedings.

I understand what you mean here, but at some point, that HAS to be the end goal.  I do miss the companionship and affection we shared.  That's been the hardest thing I have had to deal with.  


It has taught me to be way more grounded and self sufficient.  


We have had a ton of good times over the summer, lots of affection and intimacy up until this latest episode that started a few weeks ago when I received the paperwork from her attorney.  I feel like I'm going through another extinction burst with her trying to find the chink in my armor.  She isn't finding it.  One thing that always worked during our marriage for her was removing all affection and intimacy from me and then I would start crawling back and apologizing.  I refuse to do it now and have for a while but this is the first time (maybe second) in 14 months that she has tried this tactic.  It's almost like she is feeling completely out of control because she knows I'm so in control.  You would think my control would stabilize her.  I'm sure it will soon.  it must be really hard for her to know she can't really control me anymore.  She knows I'm living my own life while still continuing to be in her life and the kids lives.  She has never known that in her life (men always dropped off the face of the earth and didn't take care of their responsibilities) and it seems like she is waiting for the other shoe to drop by dropping it herself.  I think she is surprised I'm still here.  Frankly, I am too sometimes.   :) lol  

     I had a great weekend with my wife after not talking to her for several days.  She contacted me on Saturday asking about something about softball.  I responded and we continued to text.  I called her and we agreed to get together that evening after softball practice to watch our favorite college football team play.  My son and I went over and spent the evening with them.  My son and our daughter fell asleep on the couch and my wife and I fell asleep while talking on her bed.  We woke up around 2AM and I took my son home.  

    Yesterday morning, she  texted and asked if we wanted to go on a picnic and go conoeing.  I agreed and it turned out to be an amazing day.  We got to the park where we were having the picnic and my ex was talking to my son on the phone and grilling him about what we were doing.  My ex puts my 6YO in situations that piss me off.  It isn't her place.  We sat down to eat and my son asked who was riding with who in the canoe.  I asked him why he wanted to know.  He said that his mom wants him to ride with me.  My first thought was, "Here we go.     :)ysregulation time!"     My wife asked him, "Why does your mom not want me around you?"  He said, "Y'all used to fight a lot."  I said, "Son, it isn't your mom's place to tell you what I need to do"  My wife said, "He needs to be able to talk about these things and express them otherwise it just makes things more uncomfortable." I said, "You're right."  She turned to him and said, "Your dad and I are married and we haven't fought in a long time."  He said, "No, you haven't."  She said, "We are very good.  Things are much better.  We are a family and it isn't your mom's job to tell your dad who you can't be around."  I told him she was right.  We picked up our trash and she said, "Your ex is such a b!tch."  I said, "Yeah, she has never been easy to deal with and it sucks for my son that he has to be put in the position of awkwardness."  She said, "Yes, very much so."  I changed the subject and then we went canoeing.  

    It was our daughters in one, my son and wife in one and me in a separate canoe.  It was an amazing afternoon on the water and had a great time.  We stayed close together and talked, laughed, enjoyed the time together and the scenery on this small little lake.  I saw my wife taking pictures and knew she would post them to facebook, but it wasn't until later I would find out what she posted.  After canoeing, my wife took my son back to her place while I took care of some softball stuff for a bit.  After, we went back to her place and played a family game of soccer in the driveway.  I then took my son back to his mom and went back over to my wife's place.  

    When I got back, she asked me if my wife said anything about her and I said, "I told my ex that you and I are married and that she isn't going to put our kids in a situation where they feel like they have to choose.  They love my wife and we are going to encourage that relationship as I do with them with their step-dad."  She said, "Yes we are married and thank you for saying that."  We decided to go get some take-out and bring it back to watch some football.  We stopped to get my wife some cold medicine and we held hands in the store.  We both commented on how great the day was and she said, "Let's go camping in November when it's cooler."  I said, "That sounds great!  Let's look at the calendar."  We did and we picked out a tentative date to go.  She started looking at cabins we could rent and planning in her head.  She started to tell me about how her ex is still $40,000 behind in child support but went to Hawaii with his new wife and posted pictures about it on Facebook.  I validated how much that sucks for the kids and as their real dad it angers me for them.  We got back, ate dinner, cuddled and watched football together.  After the game, She said she needed to got to bed and I got my shoes on and went home.  I found out later when my friend texted me that she posted pictures of our daughters and her and my son canoeing on Facebook.  None of me which is fine and expected.  A mutual friend of ours (more hers than mine) responded to the pictures on Facebook and asked who was with her and she just said, our daughters, my son and her.  She said, "How cool!"  I found that interesting.  I don't even take it personal anymore because I know most people are smart enough to figure out that I would be with them especially if my son is.  I don't worry about it.  I was surprised for that reason that she posted pictures with my son in them.  Anyway, I am concentrating on all the great things that happened over the weekend rather than the ones I can't control.  I realize more and more that she is very confused and me not being that way and always calm is helping her.  Thoughts anyone?

I'm glad you are taking such a good attitude about your good day. I know I'd feel very excluded by her not acknowledging me. Probably your acceptance of it has gotten you where you are now though. I just can't understand the way pwBPD thinks about things. I mean, they just do weird things, that to the rest of us, make no sense. I often wonder if even they really have a plan, or know WHY they are doing these weird things?

I'm so glad you put in a good day, and it's promising that she is planning future events with you. My BPDh did this when we reconciled too, but before we were living back together. It was hurtful, but I found it hopeful. He'd plan things further out, but he'd act like we might be doing it "just as friends", but then he'd be romantic and want to sleep with me, so I found it all very, very confusing. I now see it was sort of his path back to me, and his "waiting to see", or perhaps I was even on "trial basis", which makes the most sense. He wanted to see how much control I'd continue to give him, and I'd even bet he wanted to see if I was less reactive to all the crap he constantly dishes out. I was in a good place then, so that was easier, and he was also not as certain of me because he knew I was dating someone else! It was platonic dating, but he was still greatly bothered by it. He knew that what I wanted was for US to work out, but I was not going to take outright abuse anymore, and that his walking out, his constant divorce threats, just got him served with divorce papers, and it really hurt his ego.

He cycles though, and I bet most with BPD do. He just can't keep one constant mindset when it comes to relationships or people(his toxic kids being the exception, and he'll enable, and excuse all the awful things they do). Even though we know this, it's hard. I think you've been dealing with all this in an amazing way.

Thanks CB.

    Things just continue to get better.  My wife and I have been talking everyday, and she is the one that initiates contact.  We have talked on the phone everyday (most of the time for an hour or more) and have very good conversations where she is sharing a lot with me about what is going on with her family, the kids among other things.  I listen, listen and validate.  

    Last night she told me that her ex was arrested for non-payment of child support ($40,000 behind) and they let him go because he had a minor outpatient surgery a few days prior.  He showed up to court the next morning and they didn't have him on the docket so the judge gave him a court date a month from now.  More than likely that means he probably won't show up again.     My wife is actually is taking it better than I thought she would.  I told her so and said, "I'm very proud of the way you are handling it honey.  You are very big on justice and wanting "what is right".  What he has been allowed to get away with is not right and most people in your position would be down at the courthouse in the judges face demanding they do something about it.  No one would blame you either.  The kids deserve that money and it's unfortunate our court system is so screwed up."  She said, "Thank you.  I do want justice, but I had to put it in God's hands and take my hands off of it.  I've really been working hard on those two things in my life."  I responded, "I can tell and you are doing a great job."

    One thing I have noticed is since I have pulled back a lot of affection, it's almost like she feels less pressure to "perform" and therefore has opened up more.  When we have been together other times lately, we hold hands, have way more deep conversation and cuddle.  We haven't been intimate in almost 2 months and to be honest, I'm fine with that.  Would I like to?  Yes.  :)o I want to right now?  I don't know.  It feels like we are actually reconnecting in a healthy, deep manner rather than jumping right back into it all.  It feels like we are actually dating even though we haven't gone on any dates yet.  I do think in a way she is actually starting to believe I am not here for "this reason" or "that reason" and want to be here because I love her and the kids.  I did ask her to lunch on Friday but she already had plans with a mutual friend of ours (a woman) that wants her to get healthy and us get back together.  This woman's husband and I are very close and I confide in him a lot.  I'm curious to see how lunch turns out and what my wife tells her.  The last time they had lunch was about 8-9 months ago and my wife tried to "snow" her.  This time she is going into it with full knowledge of what has gone on.  It will be interesting.  We are going to watch some football this weekend together again.  Thoughts?

It is good to hear that things are going much better.  I find it amazing how things look so black for you, and then all of a sudden everything goes well.  Kudos to you for staying calm during the black times.

Thanks, I don't really understand that either.  I think the two times of black over the last 4-5 months are about her own shame more than anything else knowing her attorney was about to send me something.  Almost like she was preparing for a fight.  Once she realizes I wasn't going to react and play into the drama, she calms down.  One question I will ask her at some point is:  "Why don't you just NOT do those things?"    :)

     The last few days have gone extremely well with my wife.  We have seen each other almost everyday, mostly due to a softball tournament over the weekend, but great nonetheless.  She has been a tremendous help to me regarding the team "back office" things and have validated her for it.  I have attended all of our daughter's softball games with no issues as well and she makes sure we sit together at them.  Sunday, after our tournament (we took second), I went back to her house later that evening and we went over the scorebook and recorded stats together.  She asked me to stay over and I agreed to.  We had sex and as usual, it was great.  We fell asleep together and I got up early the next morning, we kissed goodbye, went back to my apartment, got ready and went to work. 

     That morning, she didn't answer my text so I let her be all day.  At the end of my practice she asked if I could come back over.  I agreed.  We went over the scorebook again and she received a phone call from a company about a fundraiser.  Our oldest son asked her a question and she put her finger on her mouth to "be quiet".  She turned around and started to walk into her office (next to where I was sitting) and he gave her "the finger".  He didn't think I was looking but I saw it.  I called him in and he sat down.  I asked him point blank and with no "tone", "Why did you disrespect your mother that way?"  He said, "I was mad."  I said, "I understand that.  You saw your mother on the phone, so can you help me to understand why that made you mad?"  He said, "I don't know."  I said, "You owe her an apology and I expect that that happens before you go to bed this evening."  He didn't respond and I said, ":)o you understand?"  He said, "Yes sir."  My wife got off the phone and he didn't come in there to apologize.  I told my wife what had happened and told her that I told him to apologize to her.  She started to get visibly upset and said, ":)o you mind if I call him in here?"  I said, "Not at all."  He came in the room and she said, "I understand you have something to say to me."  He said, "Yes ma'am." and proceeded to apologize.  Tears welled up in her eyes and she told him she didn't appreciate being disrespected that way.  He apologized again and she said, "I forgive you." and he left the room to iron some clothes.  She then told me how difficult he's been and I validated what I could and just listened.  She got over it pretty quick and we went back to talking.  After a few minutes, we both got tired and both said we needed to get to bed.  I left, went to bed, woke up and went to work.  We have been communicating and the last few months have been very pleasant and we continue to get closer.  I feel she is learning to "trust" things more, but I also know how quickly things can change.  Amazing how my boundaries around healthy communication and refusing to talk about divorce have made things soo much better.  I also know that she has changed some as well and it's amazing to watch her progress as well.  No major dysregulations in 4-5 months is HUGE progress for her. 

  |iiii  

Nice work... .

      Here is the latest.  My wife and I have had a few great weeks.  About a week ago, she asked me about insurance for next year and what we wanted to do about so she knows if she needed to get her own.  She then started to pull away and giving me a mini ST.  I didn't understand while until two days ago.  That day, I received an email from my wife's attorney stating that they had not received the "discovery" paperwork by the date given and would give me another week.  If not, they would file a motion to compel.   . Shortly after that (20 minutes late), my wife sent me an email to "proofread".  It was an email that she was supposed to send out the night before.  I knew immediately she wanted me to "see" the email from her attorney.  When you know their games, it's almost comical.  Anyway, I just responded to her "proofread" email that it looked great.  She texted a bit later and asked when we could discuss "options for insurance that I talked about".  I told her that I would text her after work around 4:30PM and would discuss it then.  Having to deal with a lot of other crap throughout the day and into the evening, I texted at 4:30 and told her I hadn't forgotten but still dealing with some stuff that I would have to discuss later that affects the team and would call her later.  She said she understood.  I called her later and we atlked about those issues for about 2 hours and then we prayed together. 

     After praying, she said, ":)o you have a few minutes to discuss the insurance?"  I said, "Sure"  She asked what the "options" were.  I told her very calmly, "Well the option is that you drop the divorce, we work on the marriage and I will continue to cover you and the children."  She said, "I hear what you are saying."  She then tried to bait me by saying, "I don't trust you and I don't love you."  I said, "I hear you and I'm sorry you feel that way."  I could have validated better, but I felt anymore than that in that moment would have gone south.  I also found out what ALL this is about with her next statement.  She said, "You have cost me a lot of money on the IRS debt."  I responded vary calmly, "That IRS debt is both of ours.  We accrued that together."  She said, "But you are avoiding it and therefore it's affecting me."  I said, "It is actually affecting both of us.  We could take care of it together and in the same household.  It is a burden for both of us.  The thing I can't figure out, is why you would have your attorney send me "discovery" papers.  We have no children, no huge assets and no trust funds.  It feels like you are trying to make me pay.  You didn't even do this to your ex husband who treated you like garbage."  She responded, "If you don't respond to those, they could throw you in jail (that's total BS and a scare tactic as this is a civil suit).  She then said (trying to redirect), "Look, nothing has changed from a year ago and why we split up."  I said, "I see why she would feel that way and on the surface, I can agree.  We are living in separate households, and for the first six months of our separation, it was toxic.  Since that time, we get along so much better, we are much better with each other and how we care for the other, our kids love each of us, and we have a great time together."  She said, "Nothing has changed.  We only get along when talking about softball."    :)  I just ignored that statement because we are getting along now and the conversation was going extremely well.  I said, "I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you.  I didn't marry you to get a divorce."  She said, "Neither did I.  It just feels like there isn't much of a marriage left."  I responded, "I hear you, but there is still something."  She said, "I hear you too, but this conversation hasn't changed anything, but I do hear you."  I said, and you have a right to feel that way and do what you feel you need to do."  She said, "I need to get to bed."  I said, "Me too." We said, "Have a good night" and hung up.  It remained calm the whole time and I thought productive even though there were a few times she tried to bait me.  Yesterday, it was our daughters volleyball game and I was still dealing with softball stuff all day.  We talked throughout the day and met her at the game.  She was flirting with me and noticed she wore my favorite perfume.  When the game was over, I walked her to her car and there was a ton of physical tension between us and she looked at me like she wanted to kiss me.  I didn't and walked away.  She called me a few seconds and invited me over after softball practice to talk about a fundraiser.  I knew that was a cover.   :). I went over and we talked about the fundraiser and asked me to spend the night.  We had sex and held each other all night.  Today, we talked for a few hours on the phone and I've noticed the last couple of weeks we are spending 1 hour to 2 on the phone on most days.  Things continue to get better except for this divorce hanging.  But I handle that pretty well I think.  Thoughts?[/quote]

So what are the next steps in the divorce?  Go before a judge and get a court order to compel you to disclose assets?  How do you plan to handle that?

 

Maroon,

|iiii

You are doing great! 

I like how you balance stating your truth (about insurance and divorce) without any soft sell or equivocation.  You just laid it out there.

Then, when she was trying to get you off your game and fight... .you left the invitation to fight laying on the floor.

Nice work.

OK... .my recommendation. 

Do not respond to the divorce attorney.  If they want discovery, they can get it or compel it. 

Note, if you have an L that says this could put you at a big disadvantage, then my advice may change. 

I think you have mastered staying on the "right" side of push pull  The concept of leaving them wanting a bit more.  Not "chasing".

Let her be the one to bring up insurance and divorce again.  When is the sign up period over at your work?

FF

That's pretty much what she would need to do which costs her more money. 


I thought about doing the same things and not responding.  The sign up period for me doesn't start until next month.  I think it's a little early for her now as well.  Not sure I believe her about her open enrollment going on right now.  I think she wanted to fight about that too.  I am at a point where I am not beating around the bush anymore.  Spent time together last night and she fell asleep .  I woke her up and told her I was leaving and she walked me to the front door.  I told her I loved her, she said she loved me too and we gave each other a kiss.  I tried texting her this morning and she didn't respond.  I have let her be.  No big deal.  Things continue to improve.

Do you think the divorce issue is her way of demonstrating that you can't control her?

Seems like she is emotionally stuck inbetween, and this stance is her one and only "consistency", a safety blanket if you like.

Not rising to the drama until she is determined enough to take it to the stage where its starts to cost her real money, would be my suggestion.

I'm not really sure I'm following on this one.  Can you explain?


That seems plausible.


Yeah, that is what I'm trying to do.

Last night I went to her place after softball practice and we went over some things and then she asked me to spend the night again.  We fell asleep holding each other and then I woke up this morning and came to work.  As I said, things continue to improve. 

 

You are clear you don't want a divorce.  She hasn't remove the filing, yet hasn't proceeded either.

So, since you want it, it is her way of saying "you can't make me... "

I think that is WR's point.

If this is true, then really waiting her out is the only option.  Trying to force or beg her to drop the case will likely result in her digging in her heels.

FF

Hmmm.  I see what you're saying.  Last night, my wife and I had a difficult meeting with the parents of my softball team and we both handled it well.  After, we went and watched my daughter's rec softball game.  She called me when when she got home and we talked for about an hour regarding the discussion with our parents and it was great.  The problem for me was I was exhausted (and told her so) at this point and I think she was seeing if she could rattle me.  I felt whe would bring up the divorce so I was prepared because her attorney gave me till the 8th to respond to their discovery request.  She said right at the end of the conversation, "So, are you going to answer my attorney?"  I calmly stated, "Honey, you know where I stand and I am too tired to discuss this."  She said, "I just don't want things to get worse for you (How sweet of her :) )  , but I understand.  I don't know why you won't sit down and talk to me about this.  It isn't going to go your way.  You are going to make me spend money and I have to file FAFSA for my son in January."  I was thinking, ":)o you want me to answer your attorney or sit down with you?  And what the heck does spending money have to do with filing for FAFSA for our son.  I just let her talk."  I just said, "I'll keep that in mind, however, we need to finish our conversation about the meeting."  She said ok and we went back and finished discussing the softball thing.  Once done, I said, goodnight and she said the same and we hung up.  It was kind of funny.  I'm pretty good now at diverting conversation when need be.

 

Do you or have you boxed?

What she did was give you a couple jabs about the divorce. 

Those jabs didn't open up an opportunity to land a bigger hit... and you "called the match" and went to your corner.

Solid.

FF