BPDFamily.com

Hi everyone,

Unfortunately I've had to move from the staying board to the undecided board this morning.

I have been engaged to a man who has BPD traits in a LDR for 3 years. I first met him through a social network site and when I was getting to know him I asked him if he was married and he said he wasn't. A few months later his wife intercepted one of our text conversations under his name. She thought I knew about her. When I talked to him on the phone the next morning he told me he was going to file for divorce. He did ask her to move out and they have been physically separated since then.

This morning I just found out that not only has he not yet filed for divorce, but the reason his house went into foreclosure is not what he told me. I do not know what to do. When I asked him in June of this year to show me that he filed for divorce he got indignant and told me his word should be good enough. I don't even know how to talk to him now that I have gained this new information. Lying is a serious problem, and he has been lying to me since the beginning of our relationship about a variety of things.

I am considering going back into therapy to deal with this.

What would be the problem with saying "we are in a serious r/ship which is important to me. I'm all for being life partners but you need to be actually available for that to happen. You know what I want. I'll be right over here. If you file for divorce let me know and we can get back on track."

Some people would say this amount of deception is its own problem, you know he is someone who will mislead you about things that make it impossible for you to protect yourself. But if that is not a deal-breaker for you, I'd let him know you'll resume the r/ship if he takes that step (divorce).

Thank you for your prompt response.

The problem is he has BPD traits and every time I've asked him to show me he filed he told me his word should be good enough. Now I found out he didn't file. We are here on this board because we are dealing with people with BPD. He goes into a rage and he's verbally abusive when he dysregulates. I have to be prepared for that reaction. Lying is a deal breaker. He has been lying to me since the beginning of the relationship about a variety of things. Every time I've confronted him on these lies he's denied them. I'm not interested in being engaged to someone who lies to me. However I'm not in a mental, emotional or spiritual space right now where I can go through the drama of a BPD breakup.

I understand your disinterest in a relationship with someone who lies to you, there's no basis for any kind of trust when that is the situation. How is it, though, that you seem to have the space to be in this relationship right now, and don't have the space to break up?  Isn't the drama in the relationship now unacceptable as well?

Thank you for your reply.

The relationship is relatively drama free at the moment. As soon as I bring to his attention that I found out he lied to me it will be full of drama. I'm going to be meeting with a friend in recovery this afternoon to talk about this situation. I'm going to have set a boundary with my partner around lying and I don't know how to do that. That will definitely create drama. Every time I've confronted him about lying before he has denied it and attacked me instead so this is not going to be easy.

Why do you want to be with this person?

I have to disagree that the relationship is drama free.  There is drama, in terms of his lying to you and continuing to be married to his spouse.  It just hasn't become overt yet.

Honestly, you deserve better.  You're not married yet, he can't be trusted and most likely won't change.  He's gotten away with this for 3 years, so the pattern of disrespecting you (and his wife) is pretty ingrained at this point.

Edited to add: Setting a boundary around all lying is going to be difficult for you to enforce.  It's best to start with something "smaller".  For my husband and his drinking, I had to start with, "if we are going to go out and you drink, either I need to be the person who drives us home or I will take a cab".

unicorn,

I was struck by one of your posts (Sept. 15) that seemed to indicate a kind of time line of your fellow's marital situation:

"He had been living in separate rooms for 8 years so in his mind he wasn't married anymore and that didn't matter because in her mind he was. He's been going through a divorce now for over 3 years and its tedious because she's been contesting it."

So, I guess I'm wondering if this type of situation is one that he in fact enjoys?

He has been physically separated from his wife and we have been engaged for 3 years. I agree setting boundaries around lying is going to be hard so I'm going to start with legal matters. Those I can verify. I'm going to be meeting with a friend today to discuss this as well as talking to another friend on the phone. I need all the help I can get. Thank you for your reply. My first husband was an alcoholic so I've been down that road. At this point I've decided I'm staying in my current relationship.

I don't think he enjoys it. Thank you for reading my posts. Thank you for your feedback.

This might be a situation in which you have to leave the r/ship temporarily to improve the chances of having it on terms that work for you. Returning to my first response, why not say pleasantly and without anger and judgment that when he files for divorce and you can confirm that, you'll be glad to resume with him? No doubt this will make him unhappy but that's OK.

As to lying, it doesn't actually sound like it's a deal breaker. He has flagrantly continued to lie after knowing how much it bothers you, and you are 't planning to leave. That sends a powerful message. Is your boundary going to be about some future new lie? Because this big one is ongoing.

This is powerful advice I think, unicorn. And maybe the most elegantly simple example of a protective "boundary" I have seen here on bpdfamily.

Yes I saw that and I am giving him a month to clear this up before I need to take a break from the relationship. Thank you everybody for your advice!

So glad to hear this, unicorn. Good for you!

You have some real power here, as you will be able to monitor any dissolution/divorce filing through documents received by the court as time passes. (You'll be able to determine if it's a "real" divorce action by whether there is a petition, and then a response, and then financial filings, etc. etc. with the court as the weeks go forward.)

What does this look like to you?

Katecat, now it looks like his lawyer didn't do his job so I'm giving him time to find a new lawyer.

Formflier, a BPD breakup looks like something I don't want to participate in. Initially when I was working with one of my former therapists we decided I wasn't going to break up with him till he moved out here. Then when I was working with my next former therapist we decided I was going to practice radical acceptance around him not showing me the papers. Then when I found out less then two weeks ago he didn't file that sent me into a tailspin so I reached out for another therapist. I will be working with another therapist for five weeks as well as doing another dbt class.

If I was the one breaking up with him it would not a BPD breakup, it would be a calling off the engagement and I'm not ready to do that yet. As someone else posted  earlier, I've invested 3 years of my life into this r/s and I'm not ready to throw it all down the drain yet. I'm giving him an opportunity to solve this problem while I stay focused on my own life and I told him as much. I don't have the energy to go try and build another relationship with another man.

In addition the last time I talked to my dad he reminded me I was giving my fiancé till he moved out here to straighten this out so I guess I need to go back and post on the staying board. I was thinking of reading the workshop or lesson on forgiveness because that's what I'm struggling with these days.

Thank you very  much for taking the time and energy to read and reply to my posts. I find it very helpful. I would like to participate in the board more so I hope I get a chance to read the new threads later tonight.

I was curious because I got the vibe you thought this would take a lot of energy and was not something you could do.  Perhaps boundaries could help with this.

Is there a middle ground between staying and going (breaking up) that protects you?


I've gotta ask, how is it that a lawyer didn't file after three years?  I'm assuming your fiancee has reported him to the bar association.

FF

A break up is definitely not something I have the energy to deal with right now.


My fiancé said he filed, then he withdrew his divorce filing to file bankruptcy, then he filed for divorce again after I asked him to go back to his original plan. I asked him if he was going to report his lawyer and he said he's still not convinced its not the county clerk at fault.

As always, thank you for reading and replying.

unicorn,

He seems to be blaming a lot of people for why this filing isn't happening.  He has a lot of excuses.  I  can tell you that I did my own divorce and you can do your own paperwork and just drop it off at the courthouse.  It isn't hard, you don't have to someone else do it for you, and the court will give you a copy.

Why do you think he is dragging his heels?  What does he get out of his marriage? What does he lose if he leaves?  Since you are in a LDR are you sure he is being truthful about his life and his wife?

Only you can decide whether or not this relationship is something you want to continue.  Only you know if the pros outweigh the cons.  My concern is what do you really know about this man and his life? Are those pros and cons based in reality (what you see and know is fact) or based on what he tells you.   I would be questioning a lot of things because of what I see as dishonest behavior.

I'm sorry all of this is happening I know it's tough.

Take Care,

Panda

Did you confirm the original filing?

Maybe a better way to ask it.  Has there EVER been a record of him filing from divorce from ANYONE?

Start from there and see what facts can be assembled.

He can report his lawyer and the clerk to "the system" and the system will sort it out.

Lots of  red-flag when big life things seem to always get blamed on others. 



FF

I agree with you he is blaming a lot of people. Isn't that people with BPD do? I told him he could do his own divorce and he said he did not know that.




I think he is dragging his heels because he wants to file for bankruptcy first. If he leaves he loses his assets. I am sure he is being truthful about his life and wife because we ft everyday and I follow him on find friends, so I know where he is and what he is doing.


I will only allow the pros and cons to be based on fact, such as how he interacts with my daughter, how he supports me, his sense of humor, his intelligence, etc.


Thank you, me too and yes it is. I love your name!

No I did not, he said because he withdrew it there is no record.


I believe there is a record of the first time he divorced his wife, as this is the second time he is divorcing her.



I told him as much and I will tell him again next time I ft him. These kinds of conversations seem best left for ft, definitely not in text, ft when my daughter is at school or the gym which means there is limited time to have them.


I agree. Isn't this part of the disorder? Thank as always for reading and replying.

I don't think this is correct.  My understanding is that a filing is a filing.  That if it is withdrawn there would be a record of when it was withdrawn.  But that withdrawing it does not mean that the file disappears as if it never existed.

I'm hoping a lawyer or paralegal can confirm this.

FF

 Formflier, I agree with you that a filing is a filing and there would be a record regardless, and I will mention this to him again when I ask him if he is going to report his lawyer and the county clerk. What he will say is he can't account for the actions of the clerk or the lawyer, he did what he said, and he always has problems with clerks and lawyers.  my-issues

The hesitation for filing on his part may be his subconscious fear that you will then take him for granted and stop chasing him.  He may perceive that his value in your mind is higher if he is NOT divorced.  This is quite a classic scenario... .to keep you hooked... .maybe I will, maybe I won't... .

Fascinating... .I can see this.  And since his purpose is to keep you hooked... .to keep the chase on.  The "bending" of the truth or outright falsehoods are  just incidental and he is most likely not thinking through that he is not telling the truth.

After all, his intention is not to be truthful or not, his intention is to keep the chase going.  Whatever is needed for that is needed.

FF

... .and it becomes a dangerous emotional game when YOU show real willingness to walk away... .suddenly you will be wooed with full charm and even stronger promises of filing... .but perhaps still NO real filing. 

This may be the "triangulation" that you will read about so often on this site.

(I mean dangerous emotional game... .as in a useless pursuit, an exhausting, confusing, draining state of mind, nourishing water poured over sand... .type of dangerous... .)

So even if your heart tempts you to play the game with him in reverse, let your brain. your reason stop you... because you would be going against your true grain... .for you are an authentic person.

Hi Palla, thank you for reading and responding. He maintains he filed for divorce to this day. I also am definitely not chasing him. I have never seen this scenario before. Can you please explain to me how it is classic?

Hi Formflier, thank you for reading and replying. As I told Palla, I am definitely not chasing him at all. In fact, it is just the opposite. I am trying to distance myself. I was going to post about how to gently avoid a person that is making you angry as a form of opposite action. There must be something in the way I am writing that is making you and Palla think I am chasing my fiancé. How do I convince you I am not?

Hi Palla, I don't think I've made myself clear enough. He maintains literally to this day that he has filed. I'm not sure what game you're talking about. I'm not tempted to play any game with him at all. In fact I find this whole situation quite scary along with the idea that I am actually pursuing him. That is very disturbing to me. I'm trying to maintain my own identity in the midst of all this turmoil. How do I better represent myself on this board? Moderators if you have any advice or direction, please free to intervene, etc.

First:  The question is probably better to pose.  How do I convince my r/s partner that I am not chasing him, if that is the signal I want to send to him.

Then focus on convincing us (if that is your desire)

So, to you question of convincing us.

Make and stick to a boundary that causes him to react or act on your values.  Versus making a boundary/deadline (based on good solid reasoning) and then continuing to interact with him.

Chasing here is not literal.  It's more important that you look at it from HIS perspective.

Below are some possible thought patterns he may have.

Is she coming after me?  Does she still want me?

She said she would take a break, I said xyz, she did not take a break... .therefore she is still after me.

Chasing and "desiring" might be interchangeable.

Maybe desire would be a better term to use if you find "chase" objectionable.  (just tossing out ideas here)

Sometimes when people have been chased (desired) for a long time you have to send a clear signal that they are not currently being chased... .especially if there is a reason you want to send that signal.

So, no filing, you let him know you will talk to him in week for the purpose of seeing if he has filed yet, and for the next week he gets no communication from you at all, despite his repeated attempts to call, text and otherwise communicate.

That would send a clear message that you are not chasing (desiring) him.

Hope this illustrates the chasing point (issue).

FF

I'll take a stab at explaining.  Open to other interpretations of this "classic" scenario.

What I see as the classic scenario is a person that "hooks" another is with a promise that is "always" "just about" to come true.

So, he is "almost about" to move.  And the other person is really looking forward to the move.  Lots of good talks and lovey dovey talk about what happens after the move.  Won't it be great... .etc etc. 

Yet, somehow, for a couple of years, it is "almost" about to happen.

the "maybe I will or won't" thing is a light nuance (to me) off of what I described above.

There is excitement generated by the thought of what life will be like post divorce filing and post divorce.  However, things keep popping up (those pesky clerks keep misplacing those papers) and hope gets extending that next month will be better... .and then the next. 

This serves to create some doubt that it will happen and hopefully the other party will "push" "chase" "desire" the other a little more to push this issue over the line to completion.

Yet... something comes up... .better luck next month.

Do you see the dynamic at play in these scenarios that I laid out?

Do you think they match what you have experienced in your r/s?

FF

I think that this is a key point. He may feel like this. Or, he may be withdrawing and fortifying his defenses. 

We could speculate to the moon, however, about the motivations of our pwBPD. It may even be helpful... .to a point. Though this is certainly a confusing situation, too much focus upon the unknowns (his motivations, how he feels, what drives him), may not yield much fruit.

You're in the r/s, there is no "chasing" here. You've just uncovered some things which he has not dealt or is dealing with. The r/s seemed stable until things were brought to light. It would be better to focus it back on you, rather than him. What do you want, and how do you get to a comfortable place which aligns to your core values.

It's tough to deal with equivocation, like trying to hit a moving target.

Thank you for reading and responding.

I think that's where the confusion is. I haven't set a boundary with him. I'm taking him at face value. He said he filed. He said the county clerk or the lawyer didn't do their job. So the position I am taking is one of trying to help him.


I think I see where the confusion is now. I thought I already said that I had worked out with my dad that I would give my partner until he moved out here to straighten this out. That's a month away.


Thank you for accommodating me. I do find the term 'chase' very objectionable, given the circumstances. I am definitely not chasing my partner.


I also see where the confusion comes in here too. We are past the point of building a r/s based on desire. My partner is acting very responsibly towards me already, helping me with medical and educational expenses, helping me with my daughter. This isn't a dating or even romantic r/s, its a family r/s.


Yes, I see the disconnect. So, I have made the decision to stay in the r/s for the next month and wait to see what happens when he moves out here. So I probably need to find a way to post back on the staying board.

Yes, but in my case I'm feeling apprehensive about the move given the circumstances. I'll be quite frank, I don't feel good about him moving out here at all without filing for divorce. So I don't respond to those good talks and lovey dovey talks anymore.


Yes, over two years ago he told me he was moving out here. I stopped emotionally responding to that a long time ago. I worked on that in therapy.


That may be the case for some r/s but not for mine. That excitement died down a long time ago, after many disappointments.


That may be the case, but I ceased responding to that a long time ago. The way I see it, my partner's divorce and move are unfinished business on his part and we can't start building a life together until he gets out here. I've held my line on this for a long time.


Yes I do see a dynamic at play and that would require someone young and naive to play the other part, and that someone would not be me. That may have been what happened at first in the r/s but I wised up after much disappointment. As I just stated, the way I see it is my partner's divorce and move are his business, and what he needs to do to be able to be with me. That is what we covered in therapy. This recent discovery that he hadn't filed really upset me but I'm over it now and trying to move on with my life. I told my partner I was going to try to focus on my life while he got this straightened out. I told him exactly how I felt about it, how much of a distraction it was, and how much distress it caused.

Thank you Turkish. That is exactly what I told him tonight, that things were stable until I found he it appeared he hadn't filed and that turned my whole world upside down. I know what I want, a stable family. I was clear about that from the beginning and my partner understood that. I'm actually more concerned about the divorce then my father and daughter are. Basically my stance on it is there is something wrong and he needs to fix it. I've been very clear with him I'm not assigning blame. So I guess I've made my decision to stay in the r/s for the time being so I can go back to posting on the staying board.

The terms  "games" and "chasing" are not literal terms.  I use them metaphorically... .as in mental patterns/behaviours/thoughts.  Of course, you are not chasing him as you are starting to discern patterns in his behavior/speech/conduct and are starting to put those patterns within a certain framework.   

Yet, I am sure the mind wonders  "Now that I am not chasing him, what will happen?... .Will reverse psychology work?  Will it actually bring him to a real and conclusive filing because I am not available?"  And my caution is  to stay true to your own grit, your own grain.  The path of strength that you are walking... .takes vigilance... .so stay vigilant, stay strong.

God bless.

Hi Palla, thank you for reading and replying.

I don't think I've made myself clear. I've decided to stay in the r/s and help him with his filing. We are having another conversation about it next week. I did tell him I was not comfortable with him moving out here without a divorce attorney or a plan in place. I probably should move over to the staying board. I have much bigger problems in my life right now other then whether or not my fiancé files for divorce. When he moves out here then it will be a much bigger concern. I have other difficult people in my life such as my child's father and my mother that are giving me much more of a problem right now then my fiancé.