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All of these things happened, and I was wondering if maybe I hadn't forgiven him after all. And that made me wonder what forgiveness feels like. Maybe I am not as far along as I thought?

I think the above is accurate.  For a very long time I couldn't understand "forgiveness" you hear it in the news all the time... .I forgive the murderer who killed my child... .I forgive the thief that stole from me... . I could never understand how or even why someone would forgive in situations like that.  Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong.  As someone said earlier I was confusing condoning with forgiving.

At 47 Years old I learned the meaning of forgiveness by giving it.

As a 16 year old I fell in love, this young man and I grew up together, continued our relationship through college (separate locations), continued our relationship into our mid 20's we were together almost 10 years.  He was the love of my life and the man I wanted to marry and expected to marry.

Then he cheated the one "unforgivable" thing he could do to me and he knew it. I kicked him out of my house and didn't see him again.  For at least a year I suffered a broken heart and stuffed all my feelings for him. Who wanted to hear about it?  Who would I tell because the love of my life was also my best friend.

This one event I believe changed the course of my life for 19 years.  About a year and 1/2 after our break up I met someone else in June, began dating in July and finally got engaged in August.  He was my rebound man and I married him simply because he asked, I was 26 and not getting any younger!  Turns out I married an alcoholic but I stayed in my marriage... .you guessed it I was a co-dependent enabler.

But the biggest part in my making all of these decisions was I had Zero self esteem I allowed the break up from that early relationship to crush my self esteem utterly & love? what's love? Can't trust love! I made a series of bad decisions that finally led to depression.

About 17 years into my marriage I started climbing back up the depression hole... .started doing some things for me, for my health and for my soul.  

One of many things I did was reach out to family & friends.  I had the contact information on that young man from so many years ago and I called him.  We talked about the usual things our jobs our families etc.  Then somewhere in this conversation he told me what I had meant to him all of those years ago, that he wouldn't be the man he was without me, that he had loved me.  I felt like the grinch who's heart grew 3 times that day.  His comments triggered a year long breakdown and breakthroughs.  I always knew that I loved him but I stuffed it and in letting the love out right on it's heels followed hurt, anger, grief and disappointment all things I wasn't even conscious of feeling.  

At this time I had a dream with him and I in it just hanging out talking about old times.  I woke up and knew that if I wanted to have any type of friendship with him I would need to forgive him for hurting me so long ago.  I honestly, truely from the bottom of my heart forgave him. I thought I was forgiving him for him but something I didn't expect happened.  In forgiving him I freed myself from all the pain I carried around for years.  In forgiving him I was finally no longer stuck in the past.  In forgiving him I reclaimed myself worth.  In forgiving him I came to understand the abandonment I felt.  In forgiving him I realized our break up wasn't my fault.

In 2009 I dropped enough baggage to fill a storage container!   :)

I finally left my marriage and that turned out to be the best thing for all of us my son, my ex and me.  My son who was living with an alcoholic dad and depressed mom was now living with a health happy mom who was modeling a healthy life.  My ex had his 3rd DUI following our divorce, lost his job, driver's license and his retirement (for lawyer and court fees).  He hit rock bottom (no co-dependent enabler there to "manage" him any more).  He finally understood he is an alcoholic and has been sober the last 3 years.  Now my son can also be proud of his dad too.

I will always love that young man from my past both in spite of the things he's done and because of the things he's done.  I'm proud of my ex too for making changes and good choices.  What I'm most happy about is that I am free of them both and have a healed heart, a healed self image, healed capacity to trust, and the ability to love fully.

I have since met a lovely man that I'm crazy about, who is a partner to me, who is supportive, and caring.  I finally recognize and have the love I deserve.  Now if we could only do something about his uBPDxw  

A lot of painful things have happened in this past month LnL. Maybe you just needed your dad to be your rock, your comfort.   

Just because we forgive things in the past doesn't mean things can't hurt us going forward. Forgiveness of past events isn't a free pass for everything in the future. I forgave my exBPDgf, it feels like indifference. I let any anger and hurt from that past go a long time ago, I wish her well. There is little chance of anything she can do to hurt me going forward. I think family is different, especially parents. In a perfect world parents are supposed to know what their children need, even when they are grown. And, it's a really difficult place to be when we are trying to come to terms with the fact that they can't be what we need.

I'm sorry you all couldn't be there for each other.  :'( 

I don't know if i would use the word forgivness in regards to my ex, it is more like understanding.

I think family is different, especially parents. In a perfect world parents are supposed to know what their children need, even when they are grown. And, it's a really difficult place to be when we are trying to come to terms with the fact that they can't be what we need.

For me, anyways, the principles of forgiveness are too close to the principles of tolerance and understanding of other people's behaviour

Just because we forgive things in the past doesn't mean things can't hurt us going forward. Forgiveness of past events isn't a free pass for everything in the future.

Your question made me want to look back at this past post of mine to see what I described, I would add it was a freeing feeling and feeling lighter... .letting go of all those painful feelings from the past.  Forgiveness didn't change what happened in the past but that relationship and it's end were no longer painful.

I read a quote a while ago that rocked my world when I read it, and it has since become an effective tool.

The quote is The act of forgiving is letting go of what you feel another owes you.

I know what forgiveness is, I'm just wondering how it has felt for others.

That makes a lot of sense. I think for me it is not a one-time act (apparently). There is a similar quote coming to mind, not sure where it comes from. That forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past was any different.

My SO was saying that when we lower our expectations about what our loved ones are capable of doing or being, we are in effect protecting ourselves from them being able to hurt us. I have to think about this and what it means in terms of my own process.

Free to create a new future

Letting go of what I feel someone owes me is more specific, like someone owes me respect because they were disrespectful, someone owes me love because they didn't love me, someone owes me integrity because they were untrustworthy, letting go of that imaginary debt does it all for me, in specific cases.

My SO was saying that when we lower our expectations about what our loved ones are capable of doing or being, we are in effect protecting ourselves from them being able to hurt us. I have to think about this and what it means in terms of my own process.



That to me is something someone with a personality disorder might say, lowering expectations is a way of devaluing after all, and it's a way to create distance from someone, like a borderline in push mode.  And of course, why were the expectations so high to begin with?  Were they realistic or based on fantasy?  Were we being held to an unrealistic standard that was unobtainable, and isn't that in itself disrespectful of who we really are?  If that's all someone is capable of, in my case it was with my ex, maybe the most important person to forgive is ourselves for going so far down that rabbit hole.  

If I do not expect my dad to apologize, then I am less likely to feel hurt that he cannot apologize.

Forgiveness does not necessarily involve both people.

Has that been the same for you, whether it's a BPD ex partner, or for a parent or family member?

If I do not expect my dad to apologize, then I am less likely to feel hurt that he cannot apologize. I'm not sure I follow how that is similar to what someone with a PD would say. I do not expect my parent to apologize because past history tells me that he does not do this. Wanting him to apologize, knowing that this is not something he does, was painful. SO was comparing this to reconciling, which involves two people. Maybe that's the difference. Forgiveness does not necessarily involve both people.

I understand this. My dad was a golden child and his love for me was conditional based on my tolerance of bad behavior in the family. I was praised for tolerance of my uBPD brother, and carried this forward to my marriage to N/BPDx. I feel there is a sliver of difference between forgiveness and tolerance, though. Sort of like the difference between sympathy and empathy. As my boundaries got better, I became more empathic. When I was feeling grief after putting my sweet little dog down, I felt empathy for family members who go out of their way to avoid feeling that kind of pain. When I was in the pain, I felt compassion for them -- it did feel like forgiveness. And it was not something I was striving for, it was something that just came up, a complete surprise. It was a  :light: moment.

"Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past."

-Landrum Bolling

On the other hand if I am not yet in touch with my own feelings and needs (or some of them), it will be more difficult for me to empathize with another, and under those circumstances if I were to attempt to "forgive" it would indeed feel like an intellectual understanding or a forced tolerance.

I tend to agree with you that forgiveness is a spontaneous experience, the result of healing (for example, as you say, developing better boundaries).  And also that none of this is a linear, step-by-step process.

If I were to apply the above thinking to your example of your dad apologizing... .yes, expecting him to do so when history tells you he will not, is to cause suffering for yourself.  However, in that desire to receive an apology from him... .what need of yours would an apology meet?  What would it give you, if he were to apologize?  How would you feel?

p.s. I know you have appreciated learning about attachment theory... .I think that's part of why it's different with family members, what those bonds have to do with our sense of self, security and safety both in ourselves and in relationships.  

Hm. This makes me realize that it wasn't necessarily that I was seeking an apology, as in "I'm sorry for everything I've done." We haven't talked for over 3 years. Then, my mom goes into the hospital and he sends over 30 group texts to me and my brother, which came while I was asleep (different time zones). So I wake to these messages, and respond, and then he must've handed his phone to my mom, and so she's the one answering my texts to him. 

Then later that night, she tried to Facetime me on my phone, we couldn't connect, so I try to Facetime her from my computer, and my dad picks up, I start talking to him for the first time in all these years, he says a few things, then my mom calls my landline, and he hears the phone ringing and abruptly hangs up. 

So it wasn't exactly an apology I was hoping for. More like a willingness to use this opportunity to connect. I was open -- my voice was open, I was receptive, I was ready to go wherever he was comfortable going -- and instead he hung up.

If I adapt your question, then I'm asking myself what need do I have that he could meet? I guess to meet me in the open, and to move forward. I don't even feel the need to reconcile. I suppose it feels like I have forgiven him, and he is ... .afraid? I really don't know. He's my dad. He was raised by a mother with BPD. I don't need to even talk about things. I guess I wanted him to feel safe.

So you had cultivated an openness and willingness yourself... .and not a desire to reconcile, but to reconnect, and to create a space in your relating where it felt safe for him to reconnect with you... .I imagine you felt surprised and disappointed when after speaking to you for a bit, he hung up.

I was going to ask you if there's any other ways (or people) in your life right now that you could meet this need for connection... .but maybe that's jumping ahead.

For now, how does it feel to just stay with the feelings, how it felt to have this openness, a vulnerable desire for connection, and then the abrupt hanging-up?

SGraham, do you think this is the same as detachment? Understanding BPD did help me detach from my romantic relationship. I think what Suzn says is very true for me. Family seems to be a different process: