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As most of you know I am currently dealing with some major problems with my fiance. On Friday I looked him up on his county website and found out he had not filed for divorce. He claims he had and either his lawyer or the county clerk didn't do their job. Although I don't believe him I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a week to prove himself.  :thought: As I've been struggling with the multiplicity of things I have to forgive him for I began to consider the idea of amnesty. A former therapist had suggested that I give my fiance a day of amnesty to come clean on anything he may have neglected to tell me. If he does not admit to not having filed then I have a right to be free of the relationship. My former therapist also told me I had the right to have a life partner who was free of deception which is the big thing I'm struggling with here. My fiance has claimed he has not deceived me. Have any of you tried amnesty and been successful at it? It definitely does not come naturally to me yet I know I have done my share of wrongs in my life so I am definitely not one to point the finger. I also do not know if I am prepared for a breakup at this time. My daughter's birthday is coming up and she and my fiance have an active relationship so breaking up now would not be good timing.

 

I wouldn't go too far down the road of what ifs... .until Friday comes and goes.

If you get good... .verifiable papers... .then... .things are ok.


If you don't... .then your plan to take a break is a good one.

My recommendation is that you be in no hurry... .spend time on here fleshing out ideas... .and with your therapist.

Trust is a big deal... .once it is broken... .it is hard to rebuild... .and takes time.

Very little chance that the trust will be rebuilt without each party having a T... .and a T (MC) that is dedicated to the relationship.

Time is important... .because some people can "rise to the occasion" for an event... .to prove trust. 

If Friday comes and goes with no papers... .you need much more than an event... .you need a change of lifestyle on the part of your fiancee... .

The only way to verify this is to observe carefully over a long time.

Last thought:  Stay away from labels.

"Break up" is a label... ."deceiver" is a label... .we could go on.

Thing about what "taking a break" looks like... .without a label.

Make the "break" about you... .not him.

"It appears I have been mistaken about the last three years... "  is much better to work with for a pwBPD than "You have deceived me"

 

Hang in there

FF

 

To directly answer the amnesty question... .

I would only do that under the auspices of a therapist... .

Having a bunch of stuff come out... .who knows what... .could be explosive... .

Not something for amateur hour... or "do it yourself".


Last thought:

Your relationship and truth is a much bigger deal than a birthday...

Yes... .there may be disappointment if a b-day is messed up... .but better to mess up a bday... .than three more years of your life...

FF

FF, Thanks for your advice. I don't currently have a T as my last two T thought I was fine on my own. My fiance is currently working with one of my former T who said he would work with us as a couple when my fiance moves out to where I am. I'm pretty sure that if I have to take a break from the r/s I'm going to have to get a new T to support me. When I divorced my child's father I developed PTSD as a result. I don't want to go through that again. I'm not an amateur or doing it myself, I have a strong recovery program as well as a pastor I can talk to.

I agree with you about the labels, taking a break is better then breakup.  I was under the understanding that he had filed papers which is what had allowed the r/s in the first place  and  I need him to file his papers before the r/s can continue. I know my fiance is going to fight me on this so I hope he has solved the problem by Friday. Its possible he sent them to me in the mail today as he told me he sent me a box today. He told me he was going to give them to me for a birthday present and my birthday was last month.

Then there's the problem of my anger and the fact that he knew I asked to see these papers in June and that when I went to look for them this month online they weren't there. I'm definitely not a happy camper and I'm definitely thinking I'm going to need some help if I'm going to take a break.

What the last poster said was true that my fiance sees himself as married to me and I don't see it that way because he's still legally married to someone else. It is about function and form. I'm very traditional, if you're married you're married, if you're divorced, you're divorced.

In terms of my daughter its not just her birthday I'm concerned about. She sees this man as her stepfather so its not just me that's involved anymore.

How your daughter sees this man... .is up to her.

How you see this man... .is up to you.

This your r/s.  Don't get confused by other things.

How old is your daughter?

Labels:  I would stay away from the label "taking a break".

Many times it is better to "do" a boundary... .than to "explain" one.

If there is no r/s if there are no papers... .then any further contact would be about the papers.  All other subjects issues are off the table.  Just do it... .don't explain it. 

pwBPD respect action... .rarely respect explanations.  That is why JADE is not good...

FF

FF, my D is 14. She has an independent r/s with my fiance. He is actually very helpful to her and helpful to me, for the most part, with her so this is one loss I am not looking forward to facing. Its really hard for me to be a single parent with my family background and personality and temperament.

I understand about the action and not talk, I read how to stop caretaking the borderline and get on with your life. I also know about no JADE, ironically enough that's also an Al-Anon concept, which I learned when I was divorcing my former husband.

I don't know if I have the energy to uphold a boundary right now. As you know borderlines are known boundary pushers. That is why if I have to set a boundary I am going to get another T because I definitely don't have the energy to do this on my own right now. I really hope this problem is solved on Friday.

I'm in admiration of formflier's thoughts here. They sound like very generous and very efficient approaches to the difficult moment that is approaching for you.

From what you have mentioned of your father and his values, I'm betting he would be in great agreement with this approach.  |iiii

You may not be quite ready for this strong stance, though. This is really, really tough.

Energy management... .

Very... .very important when dealing with a pwBPD.   

Also important when upholding boundaries.

Help me understand how this (potential) boundary is going to take a lot of energy?

Here is how I see it playing out. 

No papers... .

You text him that you will be available to look over any papers he may have in 1 week time... .that you will be in contact with him then.

Then... .go on about your life.

My understanding is that you are in LDR... .correct?

So... .have no communication until a week later... .

If he sends papers overnight... .don't talk to him about it until your next communication deadline comes up.

You could spend that extra time verifying (most likely with help of your Dad) that what you have are real... .that everything adds up.

How does this sound to you?

FF

 

Also... .I would make a call about a T TOMORROW

Papers or no papers... .there are lots of things to work out.

We can play a big role... .but there is no substitute for an in person T.

FF

Katecat, I would tread lightly with the issue of my father. Its one thing to give out advice, its another thing entirely to be willing to help out when things go south. All he said is don't use you messages, which I can totally get behind. That is basic assertive communication which I learned in college, if not high school. There is nothing he can do for me in this situation. That is part of the problem. He's leaving it to me to figure it out. He will not involve himself in my personal matters as a matter of principle.

Formflier, I think you are unaware of the kind of LDR we have. We are in constant contact through text, phone, find friends, facebook, facetime. I can't just go radio silent. I think you are also overestimating the role of my father here. All he did is tell me not to use you messages. In terms of the energy to uphold a boundary? Let's see, we're going from daily communication to nothing. My partner is not going to go along with that. Get on with my life? What life? My life is very much intertwined with my fiance's life. Remember what the other poster said about him acting like he's married to me? That's how its been. I don't think I've been doing my relationship justice by how I've described it on this board. I hope that other poster comes back as she seemed to have a much better grasp on the situation then everyone else. The one who was talking about the form and function of marriage.

Isn't he a legal professional of some sort... .I remember something about that?

Is he a lawyer?

FF

FF, He is a paralegal however I have just as much of a working knowledge of the law as he does in this situation because of my experience with my child's father. The legal approach is not going to work here. What the other poster was talking about in terms of the form and function of marriage is what is at stake here. I hope she comes back and posts again, she's the only one who seems to understand the situation.

Why not?  Honestly need to understand this... .perhaps I am missing something. 

From my point of view... it takes energy to facetime, talk on phone... compose texts... .if that stops... you have energy to put to something else.

Again... standing by to fill in a blank that I may be missing.


Perhaps I am... I asked a question about what he does... .if he is a legal professional.


Very likely he will expend a lot more energy... .  I'm not seeing how you not spending energy on talking, face-timing, etc etc... .is going to "take" more energy. 

Again... standing by for blanks to be filled in.


Ahh... .this is a bit of a separate issue... .but one that should be worked on if there is going to be long term success in a r/s with a pwBPD traits.  Enmeshment is generally not good... .detachment usually is.

Again... separate from Fridays thing... .but if there are no papers... you might as well start building an independent life... .he may reform and join you.   But... .either way... you need a fulfilling life that is not dependent or enmeshed with his.

FF

What is it that you believe some of us don't understand?

I think I do understand... .but I am open.  I remember the post you are discussing... .I'll go review it again.

FF

That was the wonderful pallavirajsinghani, if I remember correctly.

I know I am definitely not quite understanding your position at this point.

 

Boundaries are not about... .for... .or in anyway dependent on the "other person"

A boundary is for you.

Whether or not they (the other person) likes a boundary is irrelevant... .

I understand that may sound harsh... .but what it really should illustrate is the importance of a boundary.

It's also why you don't pick and set boundaries "willy - nilly"  They should have deep ... thoughtful... consideration.

Note:  I believe you are on solid ground with your boundary... .no suggestion on my part that you need to consider it further... .just wanted to make a general statement about boundaries for you and others.

FF

Formflier, I think you are assuming that I want to stop communicating with my partner. Let's see, I'm going through a crisis with my daughter right now and he's helping me. My daughter's birthday is coming up and he's helping me. He's functioning as my partner and her stepfather. Taking a break right now would not be a good idea. I think that I'm really not doing a good job of communicating how important my partner is to me. That's why I posted about the idea of amnesty. Now would not be a good time to go solo.

Again, palla got it. My partner has been treating me like his wife. The problem is because he is still legally married to someone else I am having a problem. So I asked for the divorce papers. Perhaps they are in the box he sent to me today. We will see. I certainly hope so. I'm not sure if posting about this on this board is a good idea. I want to stay in my relationship. Going no contact is not a staying strategy. That's a leaving strategy.

I need to find a way to set a boundary that will not alienate my partner and that is what I am working on. I need him to help me get through this crisis with my daughter, her birthday, her schoolwork. He is indispensable to my life. That is why he is my partner. That is why I agreed to marry him in the first place. This wasn't just some random hookup.

 

OK... .so what does "take a break" from him mean to you... .? 

FF

Going NC cold turkey doesn't sound like an option here, even if you wanted to do it. Take it from the Leaving Board, when used in a lot less strong relationships, NC often triggers the abandonment issues with a pwBPD. This can lead to emotional dysregulation, and all sorts of escalations and unpredictable behaviors. It's best to work out "leaving" and how to do it on Undecided, or later Leaving, if that happens.

For now, it's good to focus on the moment. This person is a huge part of your life, very connected. We all have a right to do what we want or have to do, but acting rashly isn't likely to yield anything positive. Stepping back and being Wisemind is better.

The poster she felt understood best basically said her fiancé has ended the relationship with his wife on all levels, except the legal level. So when he met unicorn, he was so far into the mindset of himself as a single man, that he didn't think to communicate the legal fact of his marriage to Unicorn. Further, in his mind, he feels Unicorn is his wife in spirit, in heart, and intention.

So from her fiancé's mindset, he was not planning to mislead her, so the intention is very important to Unicorn. He is not a liar and a deceiver, because it was not his intention to be one. As I am understanding, Unicorn feels this is the case and while she is very unhappy he is married and was not forthright with her, she believes him to be someone who's intention is to treat her with respect and integrity, though he seems to have gotten himself into a situation where it may appear to outsiders that he is not treating her with integrity.

I don't have very much to add. It's a difficult situation and one I would be pretty knocked down over.

Agreed... .wholeheartedly.

What I believe we are doing... .is some contingency planning... .what ifs... .for when Friday shows up and there are no papers.

I think it wise to sort this through now with clearer heads... .rather than in the heat of the moment... .

Really... .I think we are defining what "taking a break"... .or enforcing a boundary about being in a r/s with someone that hasn't filed will look like.

It's clear that Unicorn wants to stay... .I fully support that... .

It's clear that Unicorn wants to stay IF there is a filing... .I fully support that.

What does "staying" look like if there is no filing?  Lots of wisemind to be applied here...

Last thought for now.

I'm not suggesting NC.  I'm suggesting that the only communication be about status of the filing.

Otherwise... .I am doubtful Unicorn's partner will understand that this is a big deal to her.

Thoughts?

FF

Can the Staying Board help you with some of your thoughts and ideas for the next phase? I know that pallavira stated that your decisions must be yours, and only yours, but I think she too mentioned the idea of time. Time and wisemind, as Turkish added. This situation seems to cry out for both.

ADDED: Well, this post is kind of redundant now due to two more nice offerings above, but I'll add it on anyway.

Daniell, yes! yes! yes! He does act like a husband in all respects to me except for legally which he is prevented from doing at this moment. I do intend to find out where he is at with the filing process on Friday but I want to take a soft approach and not a hard approach. This is going to be hard for me. I'm going to ask him for the papers and if he doesn't have them I'm going to tell him he has the rest of the day to tell me anything I might have withheld from me. Its also possible the papers are in the box he sent me which I should get before Friday. Then we will go from there.

Turkish, Yes! I am really trying to apply wise mind. I took two years of DBT and have a DBT app on my phone. I still have all my DBT materials. I did not have DBT skills when I divorced my first husband, although I was in therapy and Al-Anon. I do have DBT skills now and I really don't want to mess this up. The way I divorced my first husband was very traumatic and I don't want to go through that again.

I'm going to ask for the papers on Friday, and if he doesn't have them, or they haven't been posted, or I haven't gotten them in the mail, I'm going to ask him if there's anything he's neglected to tell me. Then I don't know what I'm going to do. This is all new to me.

Katecat, I agree, time and wise mind. My fiancé definitely knows how important this is to me. As I said to the other posters, if the papers have not come in the mail, or they have not posted to the internet, I will ask my partner if there's anything he's neglected to tell me and we will go from there. I really don't know how to do this so that's what I need help with.

FF, My partner already knows this is a big deal to me. The thing is can I let this go? He's not living with me and he's not going to stay with me again, so what's really at stake here? Those are the questions I really have to answer. I'm not going to end the r/s over this, so I need to know how to live with it if there are no papers. My most recent therapist taught me about choosing what's important to hold on to, and what's important to let go of. I have to remind myself I'm not the one with the complicated legal situation, I'm free and clear.

Which is why we should kick this around now... .

This is not new to many of us on here... .

That doesn't mean that you hand over power to us... .these are all your decisions.

But... there is an order to the disorder... .and there are generally acceptable ways to go about enforcing a boundary that work... .and ways to go about enforcing a boundary that don't work and will make a situation worse.

Going "against the grain" is not likely to get you to a better place.

FF

There are two kinds of "knowing"

One... .a person can repeat something.  They "know" what to say.

There is another kind of knowing that represents value... .

For instance... .I do things for my wife... .that I don't particularly enjoy or want to do... .but I know they are a big deal for my wife.  I "know" it's a big deal to her.  I demonstrate that through my actions.

It's been three years... .if a divorce was a big deal to him... .there would be verifiable evidence of the divorce moving forward.  If he "knew" this was a big deal... .there would be something he could demonstrate to show that.

My 2 cents worth...

FF

Boy... .this just makes me uncomfortable.

It seems to be adding more "fuel" to the fire... .making things more complicated.

Every bone in my body says this "amnesty" idea is one that should be evaluated in the broader context of improving/repairing a r/s... and that evaluation should be done by professionals.

Case in point:  There have been times in my life where I was in no shape whatsoever to disclose intimate and personal details to my wife or to other people.

We have no way of knowing what is going on in your fiancee's head... .if he doesn't produce papers... .that will most likely be stressful. 

Putting him on the spot to cough up other information... .I think will only add more stress... .

You may be ready to hear it... .he may not be ready to say it. 

Tread very carefully here... .

FF

Unicorn... .Hopefully he comes through with the info before Friday, since he knows how important this is to you and your relationship. Those are his moves to make or not. Either way a deadline is an ending and beginning. With 'amnesty' you're asking him if he's really (going to be) honest with you, which is definitely an ingredient here that's important. Good for you to keep your cool about it, while being Yourself. Question: How can we be sure the 'truthfulness' is as real as what we're asking for if the confession comes after the person is caught being deceitful? It's in the actions/takes time.

FF, he asked her to leave, she moved out, he let their employees go, he closed their business, he sold their house, he's filing back taxes and preparing to move to my state. This is evidence of things moving forward. I'm the one that's stuck on the divorce papers because they are important to me. Being in a relationship with a married man is an ethical conflict for me, despite all that he's done. The hold up with the paperwork is his wife is going after his assets and he's working some kind of plan to make sure she doesn't. That's the hold up, and that's what I'm tired of.

FF, the amnesty idea was one of my former therapist's ideas not mine. At this point anything is better then me getting mad because the papers haven't come in the mail nor been posted on the website. I won't know how to go forward from there if that doesn't happen so the amnesty idea buys my fiancé some more time rather then me losing my temper. As an aside, my partner and I have had a good week so far, which I am happy about. No arguing for three days now.

Myself, I do hope the papers come in the mail or are posted on the county website before Friday. If not we're going to have a problem. That's where the amnesty idea comes in. If neither the papers turn up or nothing turns up as a result of amnesty, then we have a problem. That's what I'm not prepared to deal with. My fiancé is already too intertwined with my life to back out now over issues of paperwork. So I have to find a way to live with this situation. As I've mentioned to others I've set up boundaries in terms of my fiancé can not stay with me anymore because of the current status of things.

What's the breakpoint for you? If the papers are filed, things are moving forward. If there's a battle over assets, that could drag on. It sounds to me that if the papers are filed, you're willing to wait and continue in the r/s until the divorce is finalized, right? It would be a sort of limbo, but at least there would be an end in sight.

What is the list of boundaries that you currently have in place?

FF

Yes... .and I strongly believe it is an idea to be "supervised" and controlled by a therapist.

Also... how does amnesty prevent you from being mad? 

FF

What assets? 

Sounds to me like he has liquidated... .

FF

Turkish, that is a good question. I hope the papers are in the box or posted on the website because if they're not, we're going to have a problem.

Formflier, a list of boundaries I have in place? He already knows he has to show me his papers before he stays with me again. Assets? He was liquidating which was holding up the divorce process and that is why I put my foot down. Now his wife is contesting which is what is holding up the process again. That is what he told me. Is it my job to figure him out? I don't think so.

One of my former therapists suggested amnesty. If he was concerned about me doing it on my own he would not have suggested it. I think you are giving me less credit then my former therapist did. How does amnesty prevent me from being mad? Well, since amnesty is a part of forgiveness, and since I am trying to be a forgiving person, amnesty is helping me to be the kind of person I want to be. So to practice, forgive me for saying so, but you are right, you are being kind of harsh. May I ask why? You are happily married to your BPD wife. I'm trying to stay in a relationship with my BPD financé. I thought that's what this board was all about? That's why I came here for help in the first place. I already lost one friendship over this relationship and my dad asking me "what are you going to do about it?" isn't helpful either. In recovery we learn all kinds of useful little phrases like "pause when agitated" or "count to 10 and count to 10 again if that doesn't help".

Then of course there is the myriad of help available to us through dbt. May I ask what you know about that? I haven't heard much mention of dbt here at all until turkish came in with wise mind and mindfulness. That is the kind of stuff I need to hear. And what the other poster said about time. I don't want to be mad at my fiancé. You understand that, right? When I get mad at him all sorts of bad things happen, you know?

This is an awkward situation, but not unheard of.

There are two side of this. THe ethical dilemma and the risk you are facing. The _____ that he is facing and is causing him to go slower on getting this thing filed.

There is a significant reason he has not filed.  It could be an understandable one.  He may want to get the taxes done, he may be fearful of the battle, he may not be fully emotionally ready to start dividing assets, there may be an issue (like a tax problem) that he wants to get clean before standing before a judge.

Understanding the _________ is really the first issue.  Assuming his issue is inconsequential and demanding he file for divorce isn't much of a partnership.  Neither is him saying he filed when he didn't.

You both are not being good partners here.

I think getting on the "same side of this" with each other is the first step.  I think if you are going to give him amnesty, give him a safe place to explain what he is really struggling with and be open minded. It may be hard to tell you because there may be parts he knows you won't like - like he simply might not be ready or sure yet - 80% ready but not 100%.

Don't underestimate how how difficult going through the divorce is going to be for him.  A divorce is huge emotional drain, there is the legal battle and there are the fears and loses he will grieve.

Also, do not underestimate the risk for the relationship. Rolling directly from a marriage into another relationship is high risk. Having divorce papers in hand doesn't fully mitigate that risk.

Don't underestimate the converting LDR to real-time is also fraught with risks.  Even in cases of the best intentions.

This is complex adult stuff.

Skip, I'm mad right now so that might be reflected in my writing. He says his filed and his word should be good enough. He says he has a real problem with me asking for the papers.

He's already dividing his assets. He sent me some early on to keep them for him. He also spent a lot of money on gifts for me and traveling to see me early on and I think he might have been doing that to keep the money away from his wife.

He told me on the day I found out he was married that he was filing for divorce. Then a year later he told me his wife was threatening to take him for all he had so he was withdrawing the divorce. I was livid and we almost broke up over this but for some reason we didn't. I was already hooked. After a year or two of inaction I finally put my foot down and said I had enough and that's where we're at now. I demanded he stick to the plan he had when he first asked me to marry him.

This isn't the first time he's divorced this woman.

It wasn't my idea to get engaged to a married man. When I met him I didn't know he was married and when I asked him he denied it. It wasn't until his wife introduced herself to me that I found out. I thought she was his sister since he hadn't told me of a wife. I also didn't know he was 16 years older then me when I met him. These are his complex adult issues, not mine.

Actually they are yours to navigate.

I get the sense that the dynamics are off in this relationship. "You better show me divorce filings" is a little like "you better start showing me love".  You want these things pushed to you, you don't want to pull them.

I can see his point about "don't make me prove I'm not lying" - which is also a bad dynamic.

How can you both get on the same side of all of this?

Skip, I do not know how we are going to get on the same side of all this, because for now it still looks like he's lying to me. I'm  pissed off. He lied to me in order to get into a relationship with me, now it looks like he's lying to me in order to stay in a r/s with me. Notice I said "looks like", because if I say anything then I'm told I'm accusing him of lying. I just got off the phone with him and I told him I was not accusing him of lying. I told him I either need him to come forth with some information that would explain why the papers weren't filed, the papers need to get posted, or I need to hear from his lawyer or the county clerk. The only reason I entered into a r/s with this man is because he told me he was filing. It is a huge religious and ethical conflict for me if he is not.

On the bright side I did put a call in to a new therapist today after talking to my former therapist on the phone. My former therapist is now treating my fiancé so it is a conflict of interest for me to talk to him.

Maybe there is no improving the dynamic in this situation. He's not budging. He's expecting me to accept the status quo as some other posters alluded to. While I won't take the harsh stance of some of the other posters, I also can't be too liberal with him either. I'm really up a creek without a paddle.

I can try asking him the question on Friday "how can we both get on the same side of all of this?" That seems much more peaceful approach then how I'm feeling right now which is hot steaming mad. He thinks I'm going to break up with him. I told him I'm not, and things can't continue on like this.

In terms of this complex adult issues, they aren't my problems. I'm not the one with the business and the wife and the assets and the taxes who needs to move cross country and get divorced. My problems are relatively simple in comparison.