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On the good days, I would say a hearty YES! On the bad days, I think I must have been crazy to link myself to him. I'm in it for the long haul, however.

Same as you, Cat lol

Like all things, there are good parts and not so good parts. I think the Universe chooses what lessons we need to know. If we knew then what we know now, there'd be another one to learn.  :)

If her diagnosis was disclosed to me at the start then maybe that would have been a conscious decision to make. It wasn't.

Excellent question, and I think my answer would also be the same as Cat's.  When I read accounts here of people who are just in the early dating stages, yet still on the 'staying' board, I do feel like warning them to reconsider.  The whole thing is that many or most of us didn't know 'ahead of time', or prior to marriage.  As John said, the diagnosis may not have been disclosed, or there may not have ever been one, and the behavior certainly may have been masked until things got more permanent with the relationship.

If I knew ahead of time, no chance I would have married and bring kids into this. But like so many others it was camouflaged and emerged later.  Although when I think BPD, I think classic, all 9 traits, relatively low functioning.

Mine has all 9 traits as well... .and if they discover a 10th... .she'll have that too.  

I voted "maybe", because who knows, really? We're attracted to anyone for reasons which may be beyond our understanding... .

Even before his diagnosis was apparent/ real, there had been some major red flags (such as a full-on paranoid jealousy episode on our 1st holidays together, where he was CONVINCED that I had an interest in our trainer out of nowhere -we were taking an extreme sports course-, or strange behaviours during a home party etc etc). These major red flags I noticed, they scared me, and I chose to ignore and move forward with him. I am a psychologist, so from the beginning perhaps I was a bit more apt to read behind the lines. But since I did ignore the early signs, it probably means that I was (and still am, despite the on/off of him and the whole relationship... ) too attracted and drawn to him NOT to proceed with him... .

NO 

No.

But Im not really the same person now as I was then, so not sure its a very useful question.  Its like asking:  'Would you knowingly enter into a dysfunctional relationship?"

I guess in that way its useful, anyone that answers yes to it should be a big red flag and ask yourself WHY.  What is it about your own insecurities that you would knowingly enter into a dysfunctional relationship.

What I do know is that, not knowing about myself and how my FOO influenced the way I behaved in a relationship, is that, if not this one, I think I would be having similar issues in any relationship.

If I did know then what I know now, then my decisions would not be about this relationship, but about me. I think I would have pursued all the information I know now.

What I do wish, if I had a wish, was that I understood how things were from the pwBPD's point of view. Then I would not have taken much of it personally.

However, we only know what we know at the time and we are all learning. 

My first response is "I wouldn't have missed it for the world". Those ultra-high highs? That feeling of being so damn alive?

What I wouldn't have done is to go back after the first discard. The first bit was brilliant, but if I'd known what I know now, I wouldn't have engaged in any recycles. I'd have taken the good stuff, and left with myself intact. But then that wiser version of me wouldn't have thought I could get all the good stuff back if I just somehow found the right formula.

Where's the "Aww, hell naw!" option?

Yeeter, here I may disagree a bit, in the sense that we for ALL of us, regardless of BPD, nons, other disorders, you name it- the biggest arena of learning ourselves IS through relationships. When getting closer with someone, we get to deeply feel our fears and insecurities, learn what makes us tick and what not, etc. So in the same way, I suppose all of us here are receiving things from our dysfunctional relationships. Learning lessons, and receiving "gifts". Otherwise we wouldn't stick around, would we?

Ditto, I am fitter for climbing the BPD mountain, but if I knew how big that mountain was going to be I would never have started. Only those who have a thing about climbing mountains (rescuers), would even volunteer for it.

So I could say I am glad I did, but wouldn't choose to do so.

We probably arent that far apart in the thinking, so dont worry about disagreement.  Its good to talk these things through.

Indeed we learn about ourselves through living, and interacting with others. But, (just my opinion), some of these learnings are more valuable than others.  Its pretty well documented here, that we start, or stay in these relationships because of our own shortcomings/insecurities/dependencies.  So did we need the lesson?  Yes, I guess so.  But, would I ever start down that path again?  No.  Because now I know more about the pain and suffering it entails, and the lost time/effort. This is what I mean by me being a different person.  I dont have the same codependencies/dysfunction that I did then.  I am stronger in this way.

Instead I would choose to grow close and bond with someone with more capacity to do so in a constructive/healthy way.

I think its what Wave is saying (hi Wave!   ).  Not a mountain he would choose to climb again.  But a life lesson/learning that we have benefited from.

(life is a series of lessons.  If you dont learn that particular lesson the first time, dont worry, you will get that lesson again... .)

No.

It is kind of like a drug. The first six months I thought I found the most perfect woman in the world. I was happier than I had been in a long time. I couldn't wait to marry her. And then it started to change. And then I thought something was wrong with me. For the first time I went to a T to find out what was wrong with me. If I could just get back to the life I had during the first six months. If I could laugh again without fear of being called an a**hole. Just thinking about the first six months makes me happy.

Yeeeeep... .mountain climber right here.

I was actually asked this by my partner wBPD a few weeks ago. I suspect they knew things weren't going well, or that it was one of those doubt-inciting questions that are intended to elicit guilt from me.

I can't remember my answer, I think I dodged it. Maybe I said yes to get past it?

Like someone else said, there is no way to make this choice. There was a lot of life that happened that was still important. You can't turn back time or move backward. So I can see why some folks find this question not productive.

That said, I'm struck by how many definitive no's there are, and I myself voted no in the poll. I feel like this is one more indicator to find peace.

In a way i am living lif ea little harder now almost as if to make for what felt like lost years. The times when things were put off, cancelled due to dramas both real and imagine. I was stuck in 'gonna' mode, everything always seemed to be on hold. can't get those years back

Yes, similar for me.  I am more determined to live a satisfying life. To enjoy each and every minute with my children.  To make time for my own health, friends, and hobbies

Much less time for relationship drama (that is what detachment has done, I quit owning or feeling responsible for her issues). 

And I quit throwing things into that black hole.  The best analogy here.

The sacrifice has been, in giving up the notion of a healthy relationship. So in many ways it's like being single (in that my partner cannot be counted on for support). It took some time for me to accept this as the reality of the situation, and even own the upfront choices I made that got me here (I chose to climb the mountain).  Live and learn, and some life choices are harder to recover from than others

No, and I am genuinely surprised at how many of my age-cohorts are somehow finding the courage to leave marriages/relationships that are almost four decades in duration. (Kudos especially to the guys. I can't imagine the degree of difficulty they are facing.)

Is it on this thread--maybe elsewhere--that waverider compares navigating these most difficult relationships as being more like climbing a mountain range than climbing a mountain?

Sometimes there is life left in us even after we've climbed the entire range.  :)

I'm surprised at how many "No" answers there are. A little saddened by that  

The sad thing is many of those no answers would have previously been yes. It is only after you really become centered that you have the clarity to admit it, and realize that a yes was more dutiful and wishful thinking.

Even those who have reached a place they could call success they would not have chosen to have wasted potentially a large slab of their life getting there. It is not just the difficulty it is the years you can't get back. Sometimes it not until things get better that you can realize just how much you missed out on. Resentment has a potential to creep back in.

For many They are left with memories of protecting their kids, and often guilt over failing, rather than happy memories of family times. Even if times are good now, how could you choose to do that again?

Abuse leaves a legacy than can't just be swept under the carpet.

 

I'm a yes vote... .zero doubts.

If there was no r/s with my pwBPD... .no children.  It's all wrapped up together.  I can't pull it apart.

Plus for me the BPD things was in simmer until around year 15 of a 20 year marriage.  I had a long good period.

I'm also firmly in Notwendy's camp that you get the spouse you need.  I come at it from a Christian point of view that says God put your spouse in your life to complete you (paraphrasing here).

Considering starting a new thread around what Waverider was talking about... .the putting things on hold... .all those fish that didn't get caught. 

FF

If I could see into the future from the past, I emphatically would not be here whatsoever! My BPDw admitted to me way back, when that she had been pretending all of her life in order to please everyone and very little for herself. This was way before she met me. Then, she met me. She continued being really nice. Then, her "medium-counselor" said that she needs to be pleasing herself much more so. Well, just like a little kid who puts her hand into the cookie jar for the first time, she just kept on taking and taking, to the extent that she has gone to the other extreme, which she freely admits, and she said nobody is going to stop her from doing so. While I respect her need to further her mind and to work, we are married. While she does cook meals, otherwise, her life is soley for working and school. Even about a year ago, when it was our anniversary, we talked about going out to dinner to celebrate. She vacilated back and forth. I even suggested so that she could continue her studies, that I would go out and get the dinner in order to bring it to our house. Then, we could eat here. She said no, and she said that she wanted to go out to dinner "to get it over with". Needless to say, such disregard for our marriage and not having quality time together and her verbal abuse have torn me down emotionally. So, I definitely would have told myself, if I could go back to the past, to run away.

Like many here it's a no... .at the time it started it seemed perfect to me.

Some 20 yrs later the mask is flapping wide open... .she Still tries to so nice to visitors and her friends... .we in the family are acutely aware of the reality.

I voted "maybe" with certain conditions. If I had met him when in college, my answer would have been a "no." At that age, there are more options than later in life.

It's all hypothetical anyway but I posed the question in order to get people thinking about their level of satisfaction in their relationship.

With my first BPD husband, I can unequivocally say "Hell No!" I did learn a lot through that relationship and had some incredible experiences, but all in all, it was torturous.

In this relationship, I haven't lost myself the way I did in my first marriage. Much like Formflier's experience, the onset of the BPD symptoms came years afterwards and I had a few idyllic years at the beginning of the marriage. This husband, despite his issues, is a genuinely nice human being, unlike my first husband whose narcissism compounded the BPD damage.

Waverider said:
Perhaps that's one of the reasons I am a yes. I found out about BPD, researched it, and started using the tools only about 2 years into our relationship. Until that point, a few things seeped here and there but that's about it. I'm sure the other reason is being a caregiver, and this is like a 'no mountain too high to climb' sort of scenario.

He's self-aware, he's trying and gets better all of the time. We definitely have a lot more good days than bad ones. We talk to each other, we listen and we work on ourselves. I'd say in any marriage that's a success.


FF said:
I can see that. I almost need the challenge to stay interested.

Cat said:
With my ex-husband, I always saw the potential... .not what was. I wasted 14 years with someone who had no interest in becoming a better person. He said he did... we would separate... he'd do some things... .we try again and within 2 months it was back to the same crap. With this marriage, I not only do I love him, I like him. I like who he is. We have a lot in common and we enjoy our life together just about every day.

It never ceases to amaze me how many things we who post here have in common.  I voted 'maybe' but perhaps it should have been a 'yes'.  Like you Cat Familiar, and you too Cold Ethyl, I consider my husband to be a truly good person and decent human being at heart.  And he is becoming more self-aware.  And like the two of you, I had a prior marriage in which I wasted many years with someone who was very selfish and not interested in self-analysis, sharing or caring, though BPD was not a factor in that one.

On the other hand, as Waverider said, "abuse leaves a legacy that just can't be swept under the carpet."  It is so difficult to deal with the frequent temper tantrums and being snapped at for things that are so inconsequential.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my self-confidence isn't even what it used to be any more. I realize that this thread is on the 'Undecided' board, and I never even looked at anything but the 'Staying' board until a recent very bad episode of verbal abuse got me to think further.

I'm a Maybe. I think if I'd known what I was getting into, I would have been able to handle everything so much better. I would have been able to prepare myself for the push-pull, have more realistic expectations, not take it personally when she started splitting me black, have boundaries to protect myself from the emotional abuse... .I think we could have avoided most of the conflict.

But, I'm not sure I would WANT that life. It would require me to stifle a lot of my normal human feelings and desires for my relationship. There are some needs that can be met outside the relationship, but some that are basically the whole point of having a relationship--emotional and physical intimacy, mutual support, affection, etc. If I had a do-over, I could practice radical acceptance from the start, and not take it personally when the push-pull started and she couldn't consistently meet those needs for me. I wouldn't express my disappointment or ask her do better, because I'd know what her problem was and accept it. We'd have a lot less conflict, I wouldn't be such a trigger for her, and so she might be able to meet those needs more often than she did in real life. Though still not consistently.

If it weren't for difficult relationships, I probably wouldn't have pursued individual therapy nor been interested in posting on these boards. However, it's made me a much better person and there's still a lot of continuous room for improvement.  *)

I did start this thread on the Staying board, but Skip moved it to Undecided. I don't think there's anything wrong in examining why we stay in these relationships and for so many who post here, outsiders must think we're nuts to keep soldiering on. I know my first marriage was like that. And there have been one or two eyebrow raising moments with my current husband where I've wondered if I should apologize for his behavior. I haven't but it's been a close call.

I felt as though it was my first husband's mission to break my spirit and destroy my self esteem. He was very good at it and I was accustomed to these sorts of attacks, as I had grown up with a BPD mother. (It felt like family?)  

Fortunately I had done some individual therapy after I divorced the first husband, so I was more immune to the self esteem damage a partner with BPD can inflict, whether intentional or otherwise.

Hope26, all I can advise you is to remember: Boundaries, Boundaries, Boundaries. No one has the right to speak disrespectfully to you. You have the right to leave a conversation that is abusive. You don't owe your partner the right to be listened to if what he is saying is hurtful and unkind.

I wish I had realized all of these things many years ago in my first marriage. I wouldn't have had the experience waverider refers to of wasting a large slab of my life as I did, trying to accommodate to my first husband's ever-changing demands.

Thank you, Cat Familiar.  I have come to that conclusion too, that working on 'Boundaries' needs to be my current goal.  I've gotten pretty good at avoiding 'JADE'ing, most of the time.  By my just going silent when the anger and accusations start, he seems to at some point realize that he was out of line.  And it keeps the episodes shorter.

If anything happened that you and your partner were no longer together, would you take a chance on another marriage?  I don't think I would.  I was single for 25 years in between the two, and life was, for the most part, serene and peaceful.

Nope. I wouldn't get married again. My husband inherited some sizable assets from his family (he lives in a much higher economic bracket than I do--I'm solidly middle-class). The way his trust is written, I would have access to managing his assets if he were to die and there is a joint asset we currently share but that I don't touch presently. However there is a "poison pill" if I were to get married again that I would be "written out" of his estate.

So, for that reason alone, I can't imagine ever getting married again. Unless it was to someone who had even more wealth.   

I said "maybe." 

I can see how the relationship evolved.  It went from me being in control of myself to somehow shifting to me pleasing her.  I began neglecting myself.  I wish I had stuck to my guns, but I didn't.

I guess what I'm saying is I feel that if I had been stronger, things may have went differently.

That being said, 24 years later, I still miss the woman that I married, and I wonder who this stranger in my life is now.

Hope26
Haha yep... .juuuuuuuuuuust had one of those tantrums yesterday. He was upset because I asked him what he wanted for dinner on Sunday and he said pizza. When dinnertime came, the kids asked if we could have chicken nuggets. I went and asked him "are chicken nuggets OK?" and he said sure that's fine. Fast forward to last night, where he's yelling about how I forgot and I'm lying about "polling" the family and asking what they wanted. Why... .I just forgot and don't want to admit it.

Mind you, any time I forget... .I always say that. Why would I even lie about something so stupid?

The issue wasn't pizza vs nuggets. The issue was I asked him if he wanted something, and because something else was chosen, that means his choice/thoughts are useless.

Something small for us is big to them. They read so much into things because they are constantly trying to protect themselves.

If he starts name calling, I get up and leave. I don't deal with that. If he starts throwing things, I leave. I do not deal with that anymore either. I don't even have to leave... .my saying I am going to chills him out.

The hardest part is to sit there silently while they are rattling off their nonsense. But usually, if I am capable of not JADEing, at the end he will say he's sorry he was being a dick. He will hear himself after the fact.

That's why I can handle it. If he wasn't aware and actively improving, I wouldn't be.

Workinprogress:
Are you guys in counseling now? Have you been trying some the lessons here? How do they go?

If I would have known about how my ex was and how I am, our relationship would have been much different, potentially still alive.

The important point of this questions is if you had known BEFORE you had any investment, emotional or otherwise, when you first met as complete strangers and you knew all this before you even chose whether to date or not. Would you have been willing to take that risk of maybe doing ok, or would you have past it over.

Similarly as an employer with this knowledge and someone had this on their CV would they make your shortlist with all the potential angst that you could be bringing into the workplace.

So what does this mean? It makes it more than clear as to why someone who suffers from a Disorder like this is not going to be advertising the fact, even if they dont have a name for it. They have been going through the consequences most of their life. They will try their best to present as being "normal'. Being  BPD means they will overdo "normal" to the point of being overly enthusiastic, overly fun, overly empathetic etc... This is why we fall for this, especially if we are in need of it.

Eventually we get our fill and dont "need' it as much, and their enthusiasm to keep it up wanes, the pendulum swings... .if you are lucky you end up here to find out what on earth is going on. Unfortunately most people never really find out what is going on and struggle to address the escalating misery

I guess I'm lucky in that I'm emotionally self-sufficient (mostly). This is a good explanation of the disorder--how they have to try so hard to be "normal" and that through the trying, they can appear very desirable. It's truly a "bait and switch" buyer beware scenario.

Workinprogress:
Are you guys in counseling now? Have you been trying some the lessons here? How do they go?[/quote]
She refuses counseling.  I tried some of the exercises, and I felt like I was bending over backwards just so I could go a few days without being painted black.  Ultimately, I would get painted black no matter what I did or said anyway.

It is high investment and no reward.

From here on out I am living the way I want to.  I recently had a heart attack and I just can't keep jumping through all of these hoops anymore.  It's too much.

I have said this so many times. So many.

She refuses counseling.  I tried some of the exercises, and I felt like I was bending over backwards just so I could go a few days without being painted black.  Ultimately, I would get painted black no matter what I did or said anyway.

It is high investment and no reward.

From here on out I am living the way I want to.  I recently had a heart attack and I just can't keep jumping through all of these hoops anymore.  It's too much.[/quote]
Aye I understand that. I'm so sorry  The lessons do work but it usually gets tougher before it gets better  Your health is most important. I hope you are taking care of yourself <3

I find it amazing what some of us have endured and continue to experience, hoping that things will get better. I'm in that camp too--having had a long highly dysfunctional marriage with my first husband. I guess that's why I'm ultra sensitized to problems in my current marriage--I've been there, done it and don't want to do it again. If my current marriage was my first experience with BPD, I probably wouldn't even have found myself on these boards--I would have been more tolerant and would have labeled some of my husband's odd behavior as eccentricities or quirks.

Life is a series of lessons. If you dont learn that particular lesson the first time, dont worry, you will get it again later.

It sounds like you are learning... .!

I'm not surprised that the "No" rate is high.  I'm kind of surprised that the combined  "Yes" and "Maybe" rate is so high.  Relationships are very painful for BPDs, probably as or more painful than for the nons, although often it doesn't seem that way to us nons.  I've often kicked myself for getting involved with my wife because she was doing well prior to our meeting.  She had bad relationships in the past, but wasn't in one for a while when we got involved.  She had  a pretty good life and possible future, who knows.  She has and maintains lots of friendships that work for her with the BPD drama. As a BPD, getting into a marriage relationship was probably the worse thing for her and magnifying it with a bunch of kids(more relationships) couldn't end well for her.  It is like rubbing salt into an infected burn. I didn't know any of this then or during much of our marriage, but I am quite aware of it and the nature of BPD now.  Because of the kids im willing to try to stick it out for alittle longer, but it might be in her interest and health for us to split too. For those answering yes or maybe, knowing what you now know about BPD and your partner  why do you believe it would have been in your partners interest to form an intimate relationship with them rather than not or being only friends or acquaintances.

As of tonight, if I could change my answer from "Maybe" to "No", I would do it.

Teapay, I think maybe one of the main differences between your situation and mine (and maybe others who answered 'yes' or 'maybe' is whether there are children involved.  My H and I met later in life and do not have children.  When I think of how it would have been to raise children with BPD in the picture, I don't know that our marriage would have lasted; I'm sure we both would have been devoted parents, but at severe cost to our relationship.  As it is, I think  the common interests and shared activities that we have provide enrichment to both of our lives; I'm pretty sure H would say the same.  I am the one who brought a lot more material resources into the relationship, and I know he appreciates this as well.  But so do I, because without pooling our resources into the areas we agree are most important to us, neither of us would have as blessed a life as we do now, while approaching our retirement years.  For example, travel is important to both of us and we both enjoy the same destinations.

Teapay: " For those answering yes or maybe, knowing what you now know about BPD and your partner  why do you believe it would have been in your partners interest to form an intimate relationship with them rather than not or being only friends or acquaintances."

That's a pretty odd question. I understand from your prospective and experience that you question whether or not it would have been good for your wife, however that situation doesn't apply to everyone. In fact, most people w/ BPD jump from relationship to relationship trying to find someone to connect to.

Setting aside the fact that they are human beings with basic humans needs... .one of which being love... .in my marriage my husband is my best friend and I am his. With the tools from this site, we have "dyregulations" once maybe twice a month, sometimes even longer than that. We communicate and listen to each other.

Perhaps it depends on what end of the spectrum they are, and if they are self-aware. Keep in mind that even though relationships are very painful, the right ones also make you feel very loved and cherished. My husband says he has never had that before our relationship because no one took the time to understand him like I have. He feels loved and safe with me, and he does because I am honest and uphold boundaries.