BPDFamily.com

Many here know my story: my uBPD fiance left me without any warning while I was traveling and notified me via text. She blocked me from contact and I have not communicated with her for 13 months. During this period, I have made 3 or 4 attempts to contact her all of which she has responded with threats from lawyers and the police to secure a PPO against me (even though they have all admitted that they have zero substantiation to do so). As a counterpoint, she has been stalking me on social media, placing silent calls to me, speaking directly to a friend of mine that she never met about her relationship and me and various other obsessive behaviors. She continues to demand that mutual friends block me on social media for example and now I have been receiving 'private' calls that hang up when I answer.

She refuses to return various items to me and I have property of hers that I want to return. But clearly; an adult good faith effort to do so is impossible and I have had to file a small claims case to do so (she responded to the summons by going to the cops where this constituted 'contact' and she was clear that she did not want 'contact', unreal!). She eventually pressed a favor from her company attorney to represent her (which is an entirely different saga!) of which the pre-trial was today.

Even though besides the summons that I had served her, I have contacted her exactly once in the past 10 months. Three months ago, I sent her a text saying that I was very sorry how our relationship had ended and that I would do anything to have a different outcome, it was very therapeutic for me though it was met with, you guessed it, I letter from an attorney!

So yesterday, I got a call from the cops out of the blue. He insisted that I was contacting her via text and speaking with her friends, both of which are not even remotely true! I ended up setting the cop straight to the extent that I am going to meet with him next week and present the overwhelming evidence that I have been compiling of her stalking me just so that he is prepared if and when she contacts them again.

The lingering question is what the hell motivated her to go to the cops out of the blue? Its the 4th time that she has done so and in each case they have done absolutely nothing from a legal perspective in her favor. matter of fact, I think that they are beginning to believe that she is the one with the problem. Why would she even go to them when she knew  up front that the most that they would do was make a phone call to me? Even still, why would she do so if she knew that I would not be intimidated in the least?

A couple of things that might be causing her consternation:

-my persistence in having my property returned to me. The objective of the lawyer today was to have be simply drop the case and relinquish my stuff. I refused and now it goes to trial where she will be called as a witness. Its the worst case scenario for her worse than death itself.

-I became friends with a woman that, blew my mind when I found out, is my ex's second cousin! They are not close and is aware of the situation. I know that this went down the grapevine to my exBPD fiance and she is not happy about it.

-Inn anticipation of a job that I was interviewing for, I switched my FB profile from public to private (I am 100% sure that she was a regular visitor there). I'm pretty sure this freaked her out to the extent that I have been getting strange visitors to other social media!

These are the only activities of recent months that I can think of that might have prompted her to go to the cops again - its mind boggling. As if it wasn't all bizarre in the first place, it keeps on getting stranger and stranger.

I guess that these are fine points, perhaps. But if she went to the cops after three months of complete silence, it leads me to believe that this kind of thing is going to pop up out of nowhere going forward.

Any thoughts on what might be motivating this behavior on her part? I am curious... .

Uggh!  sorry you are going thru this situation!

I am 3 years out and it is still going on and have been no contact the entire time.

(as a side note, I have never had the cops called on me but has been threatened any opportunity the ex has to scream at me).

I have charming attempts, third party proxy's, chaos manufacturing, I haven't given my address so items randomly dropped off the day before or day of events (holidays) at my parents house, ex randomly using my parents address for credit card loans, parental alienation, smear campaigns and the list goes on and on.

The only thing after 3 years I can attribute it to as I too have wondered long and hard about the situation enduring for so long is ex is mad I broke up, left and she is trying to exact some sort of revenge for her tarnished image?

I have also read that the bp/np's can feel the exact same rage that they felt 10 years ago as they did the first day.  Time does not heal their wounds I guess.

And finally, when I left, I basically took the shirt off my back and never went back.  :)id not want the items as not worth the stress, time and game playing that goes on with a bp/np.  

So my question to you is it really worth going to small claims court to retrieve your items or can you replace them down the road?

Wow... .all this after 3 years? How frequent is the activity? Did she find a replacement? I know mine has not,

Yes, it IS worth it to me to recovery my property. Its the final hanging chad in this sordid mess... .though I am sensing that this may very well continue indefinitely. Have NO idea why she is refusing to return the stuff. She will pay more in legal fees that the stuff is even worth! I just don't get it! One item is the engagement ring. She claims that she left it here but she absolutely did not. Its perplexing to me. Why can't she return the stuff, stop stalking me and move on? We had a trouble free relationship (pretty much) until she disappeared and cut me off... .so vengeance is not a motive.

Wow!  Good question.  How often does it happen?

I stopped to think about it and in the last 6 months every single month. 

Again!  Wow!  And for some reason I thought it had been slowing down.      

So thank you for asking.  Puts an interesting perspective on what is still really active in my life.

Also as a head's up, even if you receive a court order where she is to return these items, np/bp are notorious for not following thru.  I would have in the court order that a police officer is there to observe the peace and if you need anyone to help you carry items out... .so it is very clear.

I wish you luck!

And no permanent replacement insite.  I am praying for that day as I heard it helps?  I hope so.

Thanks man... .the stuff that she has can fit into a small box and can be shipped... .not that she was the raging kind at all, she is a waif. However, she has been EXTREMELY avoidant of me and I think that there is some dynamic to this that I do not understand, though I have theories. On the other hand, I have property of hers that IS significant in size and quantity. Her first lawyer and her sister told me to throw it away, now this lawyer says she wants the stuff returned! what the... .?

Do you still communicate with your ex at all?

No contact.  Her phone number is blocked and she does not know where I live.  Not on facebook at all and haven't been for years and years.

It's generally thru third party proxy's, charming, smear campaigns, ect.  It's all there.

No reactions and no contact on my end.

I don't know when it will end.  I have reduced the third party proxy to very lc and try to do grey rock but difficult due to family members.   And since you asked how often it happens, I realize it hasn't slowed down so I guess I need to re-think lc and grey rock or simply remove myself from some family gatherings.

Perhaps your ex is motivated by control?  She won't respond, will respond with calling cops, won't respond, will respond with a lawyer.

She is perhaps like my ex?  Using third parties to do simple tasks and to stall?  My ex toggles back and forth between a Witch and a waif depending upon who her audience is.

Grey Rock is something I have only initiated a few months ago.

Basically reply to any question with a very boring answer, try to behave so boring you fade into the background like literally a grey rock.  Be boring!  Be blah!

Example:  What's new?  Not much.  Staying busy.  Working a lot of hours.  And change the subject.  When asked again same answer.

As for crazy?  Impossible to guess next steps, unpredictability, chaos, ect.  Was that way when I was with her, going thru the divorce and 3 years later.  The crazy has never stopped. 

And to clarify I am not stalling.  I was referring to your ex stalling on returning your items.

I read that once a np/bp finds your weak spot, they will attack.  So your ex is stalling because she knows it is important to you.  And even if there is a ring in her possession, you may never find it.  How do you prove she kept it?   

So because they do attack on weak spots, hence why I am no contact entirely with her and l/c and grey rock with third party proxies. 

I am no contact.  I took the advice once I was out of the fog quite seriously:  It said run away - don't walk.

My situation is different from others tho.  So it can't be used for everyone.

And to clarify I am not stalling.   I was referring to your ex stalling on returning your items. got it

I read that once a np/bp finds your weak spot, they will attack.  So your ex is stalling because she knows it is important to you.  And even if there is a ring in her possession, you may never find it.  How do you prove she kept it? Its a problem. She maintains though her attorney that she returned it. Not sure at this point who has the burden of proof.

Hey JRT, sorry to hear you're still having a tough time. I know you've had problems with some of the stuff I've said before, as I tend to tell it how it is, which is exactly what I'm going to do now. It might not be what you want to hear but, you seriously NEED to start taking this ___ on board for your own sake.

Your ex clearly wants nothing to do with you. PERIOD. She no longer wants you in her life, in any way, shape or form. She's asked you to never contact her again. She's backed that up with actions when you have tried to contact her, by threatening you with the cops. She's told you she doesn't want her stuff back. That's HER choice. That's HER decision. You need to start respecting that. Just because she may be a quiet Borderline doesn't mean she talks some kind of different language that you need to decipher the hidden meaning of. She's telling you exactly how it is. I know that's tough for you to hear, but man, how long are you going to let this ___ run for? You're prolonging your own pain and screwing yourself up the longer you let this all drag on. The solution to your situation and your all of your problems is so, so, so simple... .man up and do as she says! Do not contact her ever again. Remove her from your life, just as she has removed you from hers. Move on! You wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of ever being with her again now if she was 100% healthy. If she's got BPD, you stand a less than zero chance. You're now into the negative! BPD's struggle to trust people. They can also find it very, very difficult to forgive once they feel they've been wronged, which is one of the reasons they cut people off... .for good. You could have done something "wrong" at any point when you were with her. We're talking it could have been in the first week of meeting her. Once that happens, your toast. It's only a matter of time. With a quiet BPD it'll build and build inside then, POOF... .they're gone.

In response to your allegations of her stalking you. People with BPD often check up on exes using social media etc. It doesn't mean that they want to be with you, it doesn't even mean that they have feelings for you. They find it difficult to let go of their attachments to people and due to their problems with impulsivity can often end up looking you up on a whim. You are and were just an object to her. An object that provided her with something she needed, something to fill her void. Accept it and let it go man. She wasn't who you thought she was. She was an illusion. Remember the good times you shared together. Be thankful for them... .but MOVE ON for your own sake! Otherwise you're going to end up destroying your own life. It's really not worth it dude.

Actually, most "healthy" people do that.

www.cnet.com/news/88-percent-stalk-their-exes-on-facebook/ (http://www.cnet.com/news/88-percent-stalk-their-exes-on-facebook/)

Yeah, you're right! To be honest I think calling it stalking is a little bit over the top too! I think the main point here though is that if someone (BPD or non) tells you they don't want to be contacted and cut you out of their life then, well that's their decision and it needs to be respected. People with BPD are human beings, with functioning brains and are quite capable of making their own decisions and deciding what's best for them.

I'm not having a go at JRT but, if the guy spent as much time owning his own faults in the failed relationship, working on improving himself, moving on and getting out there and meeting someone that isn't Disordered and putting all the effort he focuses on his ex (who's made it blindingly clear she wants to be left alone) into them then, well think how much healthier and happier he would be!

Probably none of us posting on this forum are "healthy". Otherwise  we would have dumped them after the red flags started appearing.

Beach Babe, that's not completely true. Stop downing yourself, sometimes healthy nice people think they can help. How is it our fault we were tricked? It's not our fault... we just tried to be happy. Your disordered if you try going back AFTER you figure it all out. Then you can start working on your self esteem. You will be fine... forge ahead and be thankful for brighter days. JRT, it's eating you up inside because you can't seem to figure all this out? She will ruin your life if you don't watch. Do you want to get even with her? If you do then vanish, start thinking about yourself man. Take her things and trash them, since she don't want these items it's not your fault right? Once you get over hump you'll see your answers you need to get better .

Hey JRT!

There is a phrase that I've come to understand (and i know many people here have too), that is pure gold when it comes to all relationships. It's what I've learnt thanks to my encounters with Borderline Personality Disordered people. And it just happens to be quite possibly THE most important phrase when in a relationship with a person with BPD. The phrase is as follows... .

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

What am I getting at? Simple, let's look at your ex... .

She told you it was over and cut you out of her life. She told you to never contact her again. She threatened you with the cops when you failed to respect her wishes and her boundaries. As you can see, her actions match up with her words. And those actions aren't inherently Disordered at all. They actually appear fairly rational given the situation.

Now you... .

You say that you no longer care about your ex. You call her a monster and clearly state that you no longer want to be with her or even have in your life, ever again. They're your WORDS.

Your ACTIONS simply don't match up though. You've contacted her against her wishes. You've turned up at her house against her wishes. You've used pretty much anything you can think of to get her to come back to you or talk to you. You say that you've moved on and are happy but you're clearly still obsessing about her. You mention "you know she's not with anyone else" so you're clearly still checking up on her. You're now getting into taking her to court over petty items that you don't really need at all and also documenting her behaviour. Your making excuses for your own behaviour, which comes across as obsessive, controlling and vengeful, whether you mean it to be or not. I understand your hurt but I'm sorry man, this is just not rational behaviour in any way shape or form. Like I say, your ACTIONS don't match your WORDS and its clear that's the case in every post you make.

I'm not saying this to upset you or anger you, I'm saying this to try and help you and I can see many others here doing the same. This is essentially a support group for people who've been in relationships with people that suffer from BPD. But if you're unwilling to accept that support and help and only want to hear what you want to hear then, well, what's the point? It's like a drug addict in denial, they just make excuse after excuse for their actions.

The solution to your problem is incredibly simple. Forget about the possesions that clearly mean nothing to either party. Let her go. Move on. Respect her wishes and her boundaries - never contact her again, either in person or through a 3rd party. If you think she checks your FB profile - simple, set it to private or just delete it. If you think she's ringing you, giving you silent calls - simple, change your number. That's it! Your done. You can now enjoy your new relationship in peace and quiet and focus the time your wasting on her on improving as a person or focusing on building a better relationship with your new partner. Like I say - its that simple. I get the impression you'll be ignoring just how sensible and simple that all that is though and carry on making excuses to cling on to her and ultimately control her. That's your choice though, this is just me giving you a bit of advice and support.

Did the police charge you? Do you have a lawyer to sort all of this out?

Hi Mutt... .no. All three cops calls and both of the lawyers all admitted that there is no basis to pursue a stalking charge especially seeing as I have only attempted to contact her 3 times since the b/u in 13 months. There must be imminent threat of violence for a PPO and there has been nothing like that; I had not even been given a chance to say anything! She just hung up. I explained everything to the third cop and have an appointment with him this week. He is considering pursuing false police report and harassment charges against my ex. I have a ton of evidence regarding her stalking activities over the course of the previous months.

Yes, I also have a lawyer that will be handling things from now on. Since she moved the case out of small claims there was legal protocol that I was unfamiliar with. He is strongly of the opinion that this will be an easy case to settle and have my things returned to me. If she wanted this to end, she would have turned the stuff over but refuses and claims that she left them here... .she did not. I really don't understand why she is dragging this out. I know that its small stuff, but its return will help me to get what little closure I can out of this sordid mess.

BHS

Thanks for thinking of me….again. Sorry for the delay, it was a long weekend.

You have made some strong assumptions (again) that are not based on fact but, ostensibly, on your own emotions (perhaps your facts are feelings…hmmmm). As I was very clear in explaining in my original post: the cops contacted me 3 months after I sent her a text (‘sorry that it ended this way, I would give all that I have it had a different outcome’ – July 9th) which was 9 months after my last attempt to contact her! For a grand total of 3 attempts in the past year (2 directly after the b/u).  This is hardly ‘can’t leave her alone’ activity wouldn’t you agree?

Moving beyond the numbers, it is not me that is having a rough time but her, it appears. I mean; what do you say about someone that calls the cops 3 months after the last time that they were contacted by me to tell them that you continue to be contacted risking filing a false police report charge (a potential felony)? What is in the head and in the emotions of someone that would do that?  Is that the behavior of someone that has ‘moved on’?

I have not had problems with your posts since they are really based upon some really crazy ideas (I staled hjer at her house? Really? That would be magic since I have no idea where she lives!) on your part (they are very emotion laden and have been escalating in vitriol, people that are not involved would not have such a powerful emotional reaction…or so one would think)) and assumptions that simply are not true, hence they have not proved problematic to me in the least. Matter of fact, they have really served more to illustrate and reinforce some sort of obvious fixation with me personally. Candidly, if I were to imagine what my disordered exBPDfiance would be posting from her ‘feelings are facts’ perspective, your posts would be precisely what I would anticipate. Its something to think about. BTW, I am not bothered by my ex’s repeated attempts to contact me either, but you seem to think that I should be.

Let me be perfectly clear to YOU: I no longer care about this woman – that ship has sailed. She is pure evil and deserves all of the bad things that have happened to her and will happen to her in the future including losing me permanently. Her life is one of pain and darkness and I deserve to be blessed with anything except this monster. Guess what? I have been in and am enjoying a relationship with someone that I have been with going on my 8th happy month (her longest relationship? Her marriage at 8 months, how is that for irony?). The dating life has been a huge blast this go around.   It’s an illustrative contrast to the emotional absentee fiancé that I had for 2 years and it took this to show me the difference between being with someone worthy of my love and attention and someone who is incapable of being loved by ANYONE (and there have been many). Would you consider this having ‘moved on’ or is merely thinking about her constitute ‘contact’ and ‘not moving on’ according to your estimation?

Let’s move on to a discussion regarding obsession and stalking: you DO realize that I am able to check your activity on this forum? You post EXCLUSIVELY on my threads and no one else’s. In the past 6 months, I believe that I have posted 3 or 4 times. In EACH CASE you reappear from out of nowhere (just like my ex to the cops), having not posted on any other threads on this forum for months only to post a scathing rant that is almost entirely irrelevant (as was this past one, clearly feelings and not facts) and abusive towards me personally (as this one was) other than to vilify my BPD ex. In order to do this, you must log in EVERY DAY in order to respond in the 1-2 days that you ordinarily do to check to see if I have begun a thread since this site has no way of notifying individual users when a person has posted something new. Since you are checking in to this forum every day to see if I had posted anything, would you consider this at all to be obsessive or at least an unhealthy fixation? Why would you, someone who I do not know and have never met, be obsessed to this extreme with checking this site daily to discover if I had posted anything? And then replying each and every time? At the very least, you appear to be stalking me.

The clarity by which you are able to recall even rudimentary details of my situation even after weeks or months of inactivity on this thread is also noteworthy. How is it and why is it that a casual observer that is not directly involved in this affair would have, frankly, memorized for the long term details regarding this case enough to repeat and debate them over the long term?

I also find it interesting that almost all of your posts are on my threads and few others. In fact the only ones that you had posted on other than mine were threads from before I had joined and there were only a handful. Once I had joined in December, I became your EXCLUSIVE target – you have had many posts but none on others threads. It also has not escaped me that you joined this forum only two days after the day that I broke up with my exBPDfiance. Coincidence?

I did laugh, however, at your toggling back between British colloquial and American, such as ‘dude’ and ‘mate’ that really do not work they same way. And what kind of Brit would be posting a response on the board at 4AM their time on a Saturday morning? Strikes me like someone who is attempting to disguise themselves, though without much in the way of thought or care, it’s such a sloppy effort.

Although I am not really sure how you did it, you found a way to block me from sending any PM’s to you on this site. This is the favorite tactic of my exBPDfiance having childishly blocked me from communication when she had disappeared. You either are her or both of you studied together.

you are not really fooling anyone…...

So questions for you. Does someone that has ‘moved on’ or one that continues with a strange obsession:

-call the cops when their ex has NOT attempted to contact them?

-continue to scour their FB page to see if any of HER friends are still connected. Then, after finding them contact to demand that they block him?

-get in touch with a friend of his who they never met….stalk her via text…then call her….several times….and complain about how badly they have screwed up their life, their child, their relationships and their career? AND send that person a FB friend request? AND then rescind it?

-resist returning rightful property to the extent that they are happy to retain an attorney to deny the equitable return of stuff that does not belong to them to the extent that they are willing to pay associated legal fees that are greater than the value of the property?

-make dozens of silent calls to their ex’s and his daughters phone

-incite her friends and son to accost their ex

-stalk their social media pages on FB, LinkedIN, and dating sites? ... .and so on

Fact of the matter is that I have moved on…I am with someone new and am gone FOREVER…I love her, not you. I don’t WANT you and will never change my mind about that. You are not well and what you have done is completely unforgivable under any circumstances, if not only related to me but what you did to my child. I wish you would stop doing what you are doing to me and ask someone for help – your track record of painful failed (you are batting 1000! And your dating days are almost over.) relationships at age 45 should tell you something: you are NOT the victim, you MAKE victims out of good people whose only mistake is that they gave you love; they actually cared deeply! The world is about yourself and you have not yet accepted the true source of your vast array of life’s’ painful and messy failures: YOU.

At 45, you life is half over and your dating life is nearing an end. Is this the kind of life that you want for yourself? Forget about me if you will but you have had many fine men in your life that were suitable as well as friends but you cut them all off and pushed them all away. When are you going to see that it is you, not everyone else and begin to have a better life? You are the only one holding it up! 

I wish you well in your journey but am inclined to believe that you will never get off your victim sofa.

PS Your understanding of BPD is way off base

I don't want to give you legal advice, but I encourage you to consider that everything you say can and will be used against you. The police have a case file opened on you as a possible violator of stalker and/or domestic violence laws. At this point, there is no "arrest-able" offense, so they are just gathering more data for the file in the event there is another call.  They aren't going to vindicate you based on your argument that she is stalking you on line - they are going to assess you behavior on things likes "how obsessed do you appear?", did you contact her after she asked you to stop, etc. This meeting is not in your best interest.


People do not get emotional relief through the court system. Now that you are in the judicial system, attorneys fees and legal fees will play a great deal in settling this matter. This is why she made this move.  By the time you get to mediation the mediator will be saying to you, "sure you can go to court and win the ring back, but you have already spent $ and you will spend $$$ and the ring is only worth $$ - you lose even if you win - settle for $____". You will likely walk away with nothing or more likely a net loss (after attorney fees) in the end.  :)on't take my word for it, ask your attorney what it will cost to get to mediation and what will a mediator say in mediation.

JRT, have you considered the possibility that you suffered a torturing ego wound in this breakup and you fighting to avenge the wound.  Many have felt that.  It's just that at some point we become a dog chasing our own tail. How much are you willing to pay to get this ring back that is worth 1/2 of what you paid or less if you try to sell it and of no value to you in its current form.

None-the-less, you seem determined to see this through and that certainly is your right.  I hope everyones input is helping you.

And yes, it is game playing if anyone calls the police months after the last call, driveby, etc.

I have not contacted her at all and that's just a plain fact. I have now spoken with 6 attorneys, the police (including the cops that have called me) and there is zero substantiation for a PPO... .I have as much concern about being hit by a PPO as I have being accused of being a bank robber.


My legal representation is 100% free to me.


Most, but not all. I have a stalker here too!

And yes, it is game playing if anyone calls the police months after the last call, driveby, etc. and that is what is happening now. This post was attempt to get my arms around where her head is at, not a plea for how I can impeach my own psyche. (that was not directed at you). What is going on when the accuser has become the offender?

I found this on PsychologyToday primarily regarding the USA.

Surprisingly, there is no uniform law in the United States. The answer depends on how the court conceptualizes the engagement ring. Some describe the ring as an absolute gift; once it is given, the giver has no claim over it. Others think of the ring as a token of love, and once that love is broken, the token should be returned. Both beliefs make sense psychologically. The latter belief puts more emphasis on the emotion and the sentimental psyche behind the ring, whereas the first belief treats engagement rings as other gifts are treated.

In sum, whether you can keep the ring depends on which state you live in. Courts in various states have treated engagement rings in a spectrum of ways:

Concept: Conditional Gift, Pledge or Consideration

Result: She Must Return the Ring

Concept: Unjust Enrichment or Fraud

Result: She Might Have to Return the Ring

Concept: Traditional Gift

Result: She Keeps the Ring

And, as other noted above, how do you prove she still has the ring?  It's your word against hers.  (It might be a different matter if you can prove she's done this to prior BFs and is collecting engagement rings.)  And domestic courts are notorious, if an order is obtained, for not enforcing their own orders.  As some of the others have written, you may end up writing this one off as Lesson Learned.

Unless it was an expensive ring with the diamond laser micro-engraved with a unique ID number, you won't be able to track it anywhere.  You may not even be able to report it for insurance purposes.  Is she likely to try to sell it back to the jeweler?


Very scary.  I share a child with my ex, we separated when our son was three, we were in and out of court for over 8 years.  I can't even count how many times she made allegations against me in those early years.  My divorce lawyer said I could have faced criminal charges or other serious things any number of times based on what my ex claimed and said he'd charge me at least $10K additional, which he said was rock bottom cheap.  When it comes to DV, stalking, harassment, etc, the courts don't care about innocence or guilt until long after the arrest or charges.  And sadly, default credibility is easily gifted to women. Thank you goes to "Violence Against Women Act".

You may be "in the right", we presume you are, but it does you no good if you're right and your efforts make you look like The Problem Person.  Life in the 'judicial' system is not about fairness nor justice.  Count your blessings that you don't have to struggle parenting children with her.  At least this way you have no long term ties or obligations.

You bring up an excellent point... .my lawyer has some ideas on how to establish that the ring is still in her possession but you gave me the best idea yet! She sold all of her other rings; I was WITH her when she did! I live in the sate of MI and the law of the land here is that the ring is an instrument to a contract. If the contract is not consummated, then the property must be returned period. My lawyer was confused as to why her lawyer would even proceed at first then her lawyer let it slip that he intends to recoup legal fees from me after the fact (which is generally not possible - its a VERY young lawyer that does not practice this type of law. I've known my attorney for 30 years; he assures me that our opponents have some surprises in store).

I'm really sorry to hear about your problems with the law. It must be incredibly frustrating to have to deal with that sort of thing especially when you have done no wrong. I had some serious concern after she manipulated the first attorney into sending a threatening letter to me. But the more that I discussed this with attorney friends, cop friends, HER cops and HER lawyers, the more I became convinced that I had little to worry about. Afterall, I had not contacted here as she alleges and in fact, she has been in persistent contact with me, my friends, my daughter, etc.

I sense that this is going to all backfire on her. Her greatest goal: avoid ANY sort of contact with me. Now that the case has been moved to general court, we will be deposing her through the discovery process AND she will be called as a witness to testify. THEN she will have to pay her attorney fees AND give back the ring. Sad that it has come down to this.

--crossed with JRT---


I take a shot at answering this  :)

This post was attempt to get my arms around where her head is at

• She wanted to move on - she ran away, she is willing to leave her stuff behind and she has enlisted lawyers and the police to contact you on her behalf to say "stay away". She sees your actions on this property recovery as a guise to force contact with her against her will. She feels violated and knows you are watching... .
  
  My guess is that she has told family and friends that you are obsessed and won't ever let go and she fears for her safety. She knows you are watching... .This is pretty easy to see, she has spelled this part out.
  
  She may be obsessed with not giving in to you ever again. (I can only speculate here).

What is going on when the accuser has become the offender?

• In Karpman drama triangles, this is what happens. Reading the article on the main website might help.  The triangle doesn't say who is right or wrong, but if you want to get your hands around this, it diagrams what is happening very well.  When she left, she felt that she was the victim and you the persecutor. You both have be taking on the victim and persecutor and reaching out for rescuers and supporters.  No judgment, just answering your question.

Why doesn't she just give the ring back?

• This is harder question. My guess is that she doesn't have it.
  
  Possibly she destroyed it out of resentment (maybe even at your house). Or maybe she is just obsessed with not giving in to you.  My guess is that she had it converted it to something of value to her - traded it at the jeweler for something else or she sold/pawned it.

Hi JRT,

I have something that came to mind and I wanted to bounce the idea around.

Is your ex overly competitive and hates to lose?

Let's say that you won, is there a chance that she may be vindictive and she'll take you to court for something else?

Is it worth the risk?

What is your greatest goal?  My guess is the court will rule in your favor. If the ring is gone (sounds like it is), this is going to come down to the market value of the ring (and used rings are deeply discounted) less your costs.  Even if you get a free attorney, there are still filing fees, server fees, court reporters, mediators, etc. - hard to see how this nets out to any significant financial win.

Will you feel victorious with a win, even at a loss of a few hundred dollars?  Will it feel more victorious (or less) if she lies and gets caught and shamed or if she breaks down? How will you feel hearing her explain her current feeling for you and why?

Is she offers you $250., will you take that and call it a day?

What is the end game here?

Just a few side questions to help everyone participating here:  

Recovery: (a) what was the purchase price and what is (b) current estimated discounted market price after commission or pawnshop price.

Costs: What are the cost for a court reporter to transcribe one deposition (is $300 about right), what is the cost of one mediation session (is $1,200 divided by 2 about right)?

www.obrienandbails.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-hire-a-court-reporter/

My ex is mentally ill, she alters and changes reality often, what worries me is false allegations.

Pick your battles.

No legal expertise here either, but do I remember this correctly? The original court filing was a small claims action for a stainless steel engagement ring?

Now the case has moved "up" to a court of general jurisdiction? Does that mean that additional issues are now under consideration by the court?

Is it hoped that the two parties will emerge with something more than a judgment regarding personal property? Something that will produce guidelines of future conduct for both parties and bring an end to conflict? 

And then she will finally have to face you, eh JRT? That is what this is all about. It's not about the ring - you tell yourself it's about the ring but it's not. It's about control.



It seems clear that you relish the idea that you may still have some control over her.


No, it's not. It's clear she doesn't want to see you at all. It's also clear that you want to see her, no matter what it costs either of you.

As a woman, I can say that I find your drive for control over the situation - and your unwillingness to let her go - deeply frightening.


Agreed.

So netting this out:

More than anything, she wants no contact. She has gone to great pains to be no contact for 13 months.

You want to beat her by to threatening to force her to face you in a deposition and/or write you a check for $100 or so in defeat.

Vengeance is the closure and the healing you seek.

So she was essentially right when she called the cops and accused you of using the legal system to force contact and force her to deal with you.

I respect you for having the openness to share your thoughts on this.

I have to ask the hard question, though - if you are coming here for healing - and you read what so many have said to you - that you are not on an emotionally mature or healthy path - why not head the lesson and take the high road.

This is the high road - the end of the drama - this is what the emotionally mature exit strategy looks like... .

>> >End it tonight - in the next hour - call your attorney and say "I'll put whatever of her stuff that I still have in storage with a combo lock and she can pick it up anytime in the next 30 days. I will throw it away after 30 days.  I  ask that she will return whatever property of mine that she still has to my attorney.  No questions asked.  We both walk away". << <

The choice is yours. Drama and vengeance over the next few months.  End the drama tonight - which will be painful (you are heavily invested in it - this was a big wound the way it all ended - I get that).

Not telling you what to do - just framing the choices. Good mental health is hard - its making hard choices at time like this - not giving into to our weak side.

Validating her ominous dark presence and ever continuing imaginary "interest" in JRT's life will only perpetuate the conflict. She seems to be afraid and I have to say, quite rightfully. As jhk said, this stuff is deeply frightening and we may actively assisting here to break someone down. red-flag

Is this where the 'accusio' comes from? This post made my evening.

Why is it always the same people, reading FAR too deeply into motivation and emotional state? Always entirely ignoring the questions posed by the author and making preposterous assumptions regarding the situation.

Guys: SHE is stalking me... .she is calling my house... .talking to my friends and refusing to return property... .going to the cops to report that I have contacted her when I have not and God knows what else! . Meanwhile, I have not contacted her save for a text three months ago, over a 1 year period with the exception of a summons. I am not sure what is more mind boggling: the fact that she continues to do this or that I am on a support site for Borderlines who seem to believe that I have some sort of serious problem by virtue of the fact that I have not contacted my ex AND various other 'facts' that they seem to know about that I don't know about myself.

Before the condemnation, did anyone bother to even consider the question that I posted? I was once here because the pain was tearing me up inside... .those days have thankfully passed. Now I have a bit of a detached curiosity about her behaviors and I am convinced that these 'pings' will continue into the future. I am guided by curiosity at this point. Lets face it; for every one on this thread, it has become a preoccupation, I would have thought that you all 'get it'. If you have some insight into HER behavior (not mine, but thanks anyway), I welcome your commentary.

I'm just going to come out and say it... .Narcissistic Personality Disorder having suffered a serious Narcissistic Injury.

Look at the behaviour on display here. It's insane. It's driven by hate and spite and pure malice. It's driven by the need to control and hurt another person. There's zero repect for another human beings wishes, rights and free will. You don't own her, though you're acting as though you think you do. You know exactly what you're doing JRT. The right thing? Hilarious! I'll tell you something about doing the right thing... .

I've been involved with a quiet BPD. In all honesty she is one of the most beautiful, kind and caring people i've ever met. She takes everything out on herself. She punishes herself even for other people's mistakes and problems. She hurts inside more than I'll ever be able to understand. The reason people with BPD cut-off is because they are scared, because they are afraid, because they feel they have been wronged, because they can no longer cope with their overwhelming emotions. This person has a SEVERE disorder that can lead into psychosis especially during times of stress. So what are you doing? Happily causing her stress. Can you really not just let it go and show some compassion? I'm seeing a total lack of empathy from you. If your ex has BPD is that not punishment enough for her?

Not sure why i'm bothering writing this as you just don't listen. You're always right, everybody else is wrong and those people who don't agree with you are out to get you. If you honestly think your chosen path with your situation is a good one then your beyond help. Although being a rational person I realise you have free will to make your own decisions. I'm more concerned about your ex now tbh. Hopefully the cops will sort this all out. So yeah, walk away live strong or run yourself into the ground obsessing over your BPD ex. I can tell you how this ends though... .the BPD wins. They always outsmart the NPDs.

This is, in part, what this support group does… act as a sounding board.


I have this same concern, JRT. I share this with you and with a caring heart. Its not pings, or property, or lost love that drives you. It's a blow to the ego - the whole idealization devaluation thing can really wreck havoc - break the psyche. This is not a label - the APA didn't create these categories as labels - it's an injury, just like depression, that can be identified, characterized, and healed.

You're not alone in this, here.

We can help you.

Skip is right, normal people get narcissistic injuries. You went thru a TRAUMA.

I personally know what its like to have someone cut you off. I didn't even get a hint that anything was going on. Didn't even get a goodbye. Nothing! Just went totally ghost on me. It is traumatic. But that's not an excuse to trample someone else's wishes and boundaries or disrespect their decisions or attempt to control and manipulate them. You can't use BPD as an excuse and forge ahead with your own internal logic. The ironic thing about all this is that JRT is clearly getting annoyed that he feels other people aren't respecting his wishes or views yet is completely and utterly disregarding those of his ex gf. She has a very severe PD, she hasn't purposefully gone out of her way to cause JRT pain and misery. She really can't help her behaviour. JRT can, unless he actually is NPD. Which looking at his behaviour is a possibility. My ex's father suffered with it and my BPD gf was co-morbid with it. There are some remarkable similarities and BPD/NPD relationships are apparently very common as they are mutually attracted to one another, often locked in a game of control and one upmanship. Which sounds remarkably like what's going on here.

Not sure there's anything more to say really. I've tried my best to help out, even if i do speak my mind and tell it exactly how i see it. I have empathy for the guy but i'm sure that any rational person can see that walking away is the healthiest, the easiest and the best thing to do for all parties involved. I'm convinced if JRT does carry on down the path he's on though it's not going to end well. The cops won't be messing about and if he displays the kind of behaviour he has done on some of the threads on here and in the PMs he sent me then he's going to end up in some serious, serious trouble. One last time - move on JRT for your own sake, for the sake of your new gf and most importantly for the sake of your ex.

Lot of sadness,  yet why not what's another couple of year, go for it, do what makes you happy.  Do what's in your legal rights.  Get that ring.  We will be here for your.  Good luck.

JRT, in an August 20 post, you wrote that you purchased "a cheapo Sterling silver ring as a ‘stand in’ ring while her permanent one was being built….it only cost $250."

It is your legal right to sue this troubled woman for damages, but I hope you don't do it.

JRT, some friendly advice:

people are going by your words as that is all we have. they are telling words. many of them ("she will be forced to face me" repeated several times as your own motivation(s). one need not read too deeply to find them concerning. you have also called her a monster numerous times. it begs a lot of questions, most of which have been asked of you, most of which have been dismissed by you, including a practical plan to end all of this over night. you also want inside the head of the monster you have claimed to move on from.

it is possible that multiple people sharing the same concerns could all be wrong. in that case, its more useful to examine your words rather than justify them and argue at length. boil it down. be clear about what you are asking. you are getting the responses you are getting for a reason. i get it, you dont want yourself to be the focus of your responses. understandable. simple solution: stop making yourself the focus.

you have asked many times for us to tell you what is going on in her head. none of us can tell you that. we are going by her actions, which you have described, but seem to ignore. there is a consensus on what her actions are telling you. the question has been answered to the extent it can be. you dont seem to like the answer, but persist in asking. its a stalemate. youre largely in control of the board and its your move.

sidenote: "stalking" is a strong word to describe the cyber behavior and telephone calls. i believe you. ive read similar stories and experienced some of it myself. it is confusing behavior. to tell you the truth, i have no idea what drove it, but when push came to shove, i removed myself from the equation, as has been suggested to you. it was contradictory, confusing, i would call it obsessive and bizarre, but not on the level of stalking. word choices like this may undermine your credibility and get a lot of push back.

bottom line: if you dont like the feedback youre getting, change your approach.

Over the years I've noticed a few people posting here how they wanted to 'observe' and 'figure out' what the other or ex was thinking.  This was not productive for them, they were stuck for far too long.  They may still be stuck to this day for all I know.  We don't want that for you.  We want you to ponder your situation, decide what can be addressed and what needs to be Let Go.  Can you do that?  Can you Let Go and Move On?

If the major item is worth about $1K, that's about 2 or 3 weeks of earnings for someone earning minimum wage.  I expect you earn much more than that, so it would have even less of an impact on your life.  Sure, not pocket change, but not the end of the world either.  Yet for over a year there has been this legal struggle with your ex.  Over a year.  No children involved.  No joint ownership of accounts.  Only some items, things that in the Grand Scheme of Life barely merit a road bump.

Yes, she might not stop contacting people you know, maybe she views them as mutual friends even though your relationship ended.  For all we know, she might only be asking them why you're not letting all this go.  I'm not saying she's not disordered.  Frankly, by now it doesn't matter whether she has a PD or not, is diagnosed or not, has X or Y behaviors or not.  She is what she is.  Now it's time for introspection, you would do well to look at yourself too.  You're 'curious' about the way she thinks.  Well, if she's got mental illness in the form of a PD, it won't make logical sense.  You could lecture about the behaviors, write a text book about them, almost predict them but it still would not make everyday common sense.  That's precisely what mental illness IS, whether to a greater or lesser extent.  We often write here that we can't force the other person to change, whereas it's totally up to us to makes changes to ourselves.  So we've discussed her and her behaviors at length, now it's time for you to assimilate this and do some introspection.

I have shown compassion to myself and have NOT contacted her. You can indulge in your strange fantasy all that you want BHS, its amusing. 

JRT, in an August 20 post, you wrote that you purchased "a cheapo Sterling silver ring as a ‘stand in’ ring while her permanent one was being built….it only cost $250."

It is your legal right to sue this troubled woman for damages, but I hope you don't do it. This is correct... .why wouldn't I? [/quote]

We understand.  It isn't fair, right or justifiable.  However, the judicial system is not a justice system nor does it try to be fair.  If you expect a judge to lecture her, wag his/her finger at her or whatever, that's not likely to happen.  Maybe you'll get your ring back, maybe you'll get your other things back, but don't expect the court to do as you expect.

Years ago I was blocked from my preschooler for over 3 months, not even my calls got through to him.  Police were no help either, they told me to come back once I had a court order in hand.  In all, it took 3 months.  I was so sure she would get her comeuppance once we were back in court again.  Guess what?  The magistrate confirmed from her that she had blocked all father-child contact for 3 months.  I thought, "Here it comes... ."  He simply said, "Well, I'll fix that" and restored the lapsed parenting schedule we had before.  I was alternate weekend Dad again.  Not finger wagged at her, no lecture for her, no reduced time for her, no makeup time for me.  Was I stunned?  You bet!  Did I feel injustice, even unfairness?  Yes!  But there was nothing for me to do, I had to Move On.

Oh, how I would have traded my distress for what you have.  Many others too would swap their problems with yours in an instant.  Yes, it is hard for you.  That is clear.  But understand that what many here have dealt with - and walked out strong despite the ordeals - is a Lesson we're trying to pass on to you, that the price you'll pay to Let It Go is, by comparison, not as huge as it seems.

GIFT yourself Freedom.  Please.

*mod*

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Thanks... .its really that simple. I appreciate your post. So many others made it into something that it is not. Its comforting to know that someone understands (among many who should, but don't seem to).

Thanks for your thought FD

Yes, the value is not terribly high, but I have collected on small sums that are business related in the past. It is the principle of things that motivates me and those that are close to me are supportive of these efforts as they are this one. They are, in fact, VERY supportive. My childhood buddy/lawyer is working the case for free. The return of my items will provide the only closure that I will ever experience with this episode, but somehow to the culture on this forum, this is bad. It constitutes that I have NPD! (wow! Never mind any diagnostic criteria, lol).

I have been in a loving and caring relationship since the winter. Here and then, I think about her when there are triggers. But that herd of elephants feeling and deep down desire that we really reunite are both long gone and never to return. My use for this site is truly for learning... .it IS fascinating and at times I wonder if there are any others that have experienced the same sorts of things.

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