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"did you take care of your boredom"

Is a text that is alleged to be flirtatious.  It's been a while since my wife has snooped around in my text log.

Nothing to hide... .I don't make a habit of leaving it open.

So apparently she looks through there and the text above means I'm flirting.

She told me "next time just go home with her... "



Sigh...

Wife has really been cranking them out lately... .I was in better mood this evening... .and really don't feel down at all about this...

FF

Hard to say without the context of the conversation.

Sounds vaguely sexual. IDK, pwBPD can make "isn't the sky blue" into an insult, a come-on, a complaint. 

She has a naughty mind and an anxious one. 

In essence that text (out of context and in itself) is a personal enquiry... .and that is a little personal. You don't ask someone how they're feeling unless you are concerned for or interested in their feelings.

But fllirting?... .I don't think so... .unless there is more substantitive statements or history that you have left out.  

It involved "feelings" so I am not at all surprised if your partner dysregulated over it if she was stressed or feeling bad about herself or your relationship (which she may be in part responsible for herself).

The BPD whisperer might translate that to you showed interest or concern in how another female was feeling, instead of her and that took away from the love you have for your partner.

Reads vaguely sexual to me too. Of course, the source of that is the content of MY mind.

Lifewriter x

To me, FF, the barometer for "crossing the line" has to be me, because- everywhere I go, the one consistent person who is watching me is me.

Although I respect and am concerned for my H's feelings, he has made an issue over things that are not an issue. If I considered his barometer for this, then I probably should not talk to anybody because of the potential someone might get chatty with me.

I think we know when the line is crossed. I was out with a female friend the other day and a guy started flirting with her. We both saw what was going on and he surely knew what was going on. I believe that if we are honest with ourselves, we can tell when we are getting too close or suggestive with someone.

The content of the text is not business like. It is personal. It also involves an exchange of feelings. You are aware that the other person is bored, and asked her if she is taking care of that.

There are some people that maintain that getting too personal is crossing a boundary so to speak, if not actually flirting. I could also see this in context of a work situation if a co-worker was commiserating about a boring project, but still, the comment seems a bit "off".


I think the context of this text is probably the deciding factor, but really the person to decide if this is flirting is you.

 

Good points on context.  

I've been doing some rideshare to pick up some extra $$.

I have no idea who this person is... .other than someone that got a ride from me.

She talked my ear off about how bored she had been all day and her ride (she is not from this area) was to go to a restaurant to "fix" her boredom.  She was also very concerned about getting a ride back.  

I told her to text me so I would have her real number and she mine.  (me trolling for some business here... .$$ business... .not monkey business)

So... .I hadn't heard from her and was about to go home for the night.  The entire context of what I know about this lady is that she was bored.

note:  "dana uber" is how she is listed in google.  


dana uber: Dana - uber 7:58 PM

Me: Got it 8:03 PM

Me: Did u fix ur boredom? Need a ride anytime soon? 10:34 PM

dana uber: Hey! I got a ride later with a friend! Thanks for checking up on me



So... this is the entire text exchange.  According to wife I was flirting and next time should just have "gone home with her".

Sigh... .wasn't this same wife that was worried about me not bringing in income or having a job?

Anyone know of a job without contact with women... .?

FF

 

I agree with Wendy there was some personal content about boredom and feelings.

That is the only detail that I know about this person's life... .

to me... .I would have been flirting or coming on to her if I had followed up the conversation after she was clear didn't need the services I was offering.

At that point I would have know my "business" was over and any further pursuit of her would have been "personal".

FF

If you want my honest opinion FF - while this may not be flirting, it is an informal exchange between you and an almost complete stranger. It is not business like.

I will give you my honest feedback as a woman. If I were to be riding alone in a car with a man, I'd probably be on high alert ( if I even accepted the ride at all) . Any comment made to me about my feelings, or in any personal context would freak me out a bit. You may not be a player, but I don't know you, and she doesn't know you.

When conducting business, I expect the conversation to be on business terms. Now, over time, I think people relax this a bit when they get to know each other, and they do this in context of the other person's situation and boundaries as well. But I think in general, we have a good idea of when it is appropriate to speak casually with someone. However, I also think it is not ever appropriate to speak personally in a non intimate ( close friend) relationship.

What is casual?

I male friend of mine who runs a business watches the same TV series I do ( he is very happily married and works with his wife, so she is there too). So if I am at his business, I might say " hey did you see last night's episode?" and he might laugh and say "yeah it was great".

What is personal?

Anything about feelings, relationships. "Have you taken care of that boredom yet? is an example " I could talk for several minutes with friend as above about the show, but I can't imagine asking him about his feelings or saying something like that to him.

There are few times where feelings are appropriate "I am sorry to hear your relative died" but that is still more of a formality.


So back to the call. If a man were to contact me about a ride- for business, then I would prefer to hear something like: Thank you for your business. Please let me know if you need a ride to X"  or, I recall you mentioning that you needed a ride to X, I can drive you if you need one.

That was to the point: need a ride, I can provide one. No other exchange.

IMHO, your comment would have crossed a line with me. I would also decline the offer and not call a driver who spoke to me personally.

Is it flirting? Not necessarily, but it was not business like.

Trying to interest somebody in (a business transaction) with you in a perky outgoing way is flirty by its very nature.

If you WERE trying to get a date with her, the same statement would serve a similar purpose there.

My wife's flirting is an unstoppable force of nature. Probably 90% of her flirty interactions aren't about sex or even an interest in sex. She does it with women (she is straight). She does it with guys she isn't attracted to and would never be attracted to.

A little bit of flattery, mirroring, or validation can go quite a ways toward opening up the possibility of a relationship. As Notwendy points out, it isn't professional, but that doesn't mean it isn't effective--consider what salespeople do.

So in summary... .your wife had a valid point in calling it flirty... .not that the comment "well just go home with her next time" part was valid.

Obviously this kind of subtle discussion isn't going to go anywhere with your wife. Know that those sort of efforts to drum up repeat business or any success at getting repeat business are reasonably likely to trigger your wife, and make your choice of what you will do in the future accordingly.

My wife may not view that as actual "flirting"... .but she would certainly see  red-flag since I'm "in a relationship" with a woman... .

I don't think you can actually "accidentally" flirt (OK, I do know some guys who's personality is so flirtatious that it can happen). 

If it was me I'm sure we'd have the conversation:

   1. No, I wasn't flirting

   2. I understand you feel threatened by my email

   3. I realize you don't believe I "protect" our marriage the way you'd like

   4. I understand you feel threatened because I don't agree I'm not threatening our marriage by the email exchange... .

Of course that's only if I don't let her push my buttons & spiral out of control... .

Admittedly, as the wife of a man with dBPD and infidelity being an issue for us (so I might be extra threat sensitive) I would be uncomfortable with the text on the basis that its a personal inquiry and it wasn't transparent to me i.e. your wife found it rather than you mentioning the incident first. I once heard a therapist say something along the lines of when there are trust issues it's best not to require 'benefit of the doubt' so not to put yourself in situation where that is required. Just my two cents.

 

Thanks for all the input on this.

I can see my wife's point of view... .and that of many on here.

I find it interesting what people considering flirting. 

To me... .a flirt is something that obviously shows sexual interest in someone. 

I consider what I did "just being friendly".  I do and say that kind of stuff without thinking about it.  To men and women.

The only thing that I know about this woman is that she was in town "cooped up" at her friends house all day and was bored.  She volunteered it... .and that was what we talked about on the way to where I dropped her off. 

If it had been a guy... .I would have said something similar.

If I had mentioned something to her about her hair looking nice, or her outfit... .or the "sound of her voice"... .to me... .that would have been a flirt.

My wife doesn't see it that way.

So... .where to go from here?  Well, in large part this type of incident is one of the reasons I no longer share my password with her. 

I've refused to try and evaluate each interaction with a female from her point of view.  That would be exhausting... .

It seems this has blown over... .my wife was in a foul mood for days before this... and still is in a funk this morning. 

New post coming for that.

Please keep the suggestions coming.

FF

Was this text followed up with anything like "I have cats and peanut butter"?

Now that would have been flirting.

 

agreed... .that would be flirting... .   

Nope... nothing like that in what I sent.

FF

Context and the character of the speaker is so important in deciding just exactly what is '"flirting".

If I remember correctly, formflier, you are a Southerner. I lived in the South and the warmth and friendliness there is quite different than in other parts of the States. I loved it!

But what is perceived as "friendly" in some areas can be perceived as a "come-on" in other places or by people who are from other places.

Another difference is the introvert/extrovert polarity. I had a boyfriend who was an extreme extrovert. He knew just about everyone in town by name. He would remember small details about people and could start easy conversations with the most reticent folks.

The problem was that sometimes people thought he was flirting and being inappropriate because they weren't used to people being so gregarious. Occasionally women thought he was coming onto them when he was just enjoying being his friendly self.

 

I'm an ESTJ (if you are into that kinda thing).

Pretty solid in those categories.

I went to college "up north" and started out walking around saying hey to everyone... .waving... .

Yep... .got some odd looks back.

Yes... .I'm a southerner... .firmly.

FF

I don't think it was flirting, but again, in a professional context, it may have crossed a boundary.

It is interesting that the response from the women on this thread is different from the men. This may be because we have been on the receiving end of male flirting. Consider that this made some of us uncomfortable.

I know you didn't intend it as flirting, and you didn't. But as Cat said, in some cases, it could be interpreted as that.

You know that in the workplace, the most strict boundaries are in place, not just to protect the receiver from sexual harassment, but also to protect the person from being accused of it.  It goes both ways. We all know that male doctors have a female chaperone in the room if they are doing certain exams on a woman patient. This isn't because the doctor is intending to be creepy. It is so the woman is more comfortable that he isn't and also it protects him in case he is falsely accused.

I am one of many moms who volunteered at a local high school. One of the boundaries is to not touch the students and not be alone in them with a closed door. It is not that we are creepy ( we would cringe at the idea) it is so that the students are not put at any risk and also that the parents are not falsely accused. Even if one of us did tap a child on the shoulder, it would mean nothing to us- but we don't know what the kid might think of it. Same in the workplace- the boundaries exist regardless of the context.

No matter what your wife thinks, you may want to consider what boundaries you would like to have in place when transporting women around. This is not something like an open office where there are people around. It is just you and a woman in a car. I don't have any doubt that you are an upright person- but the passenger doesn't know that. Also, she could misinterpret something and falsely accuse you.

I also mention this because from your posts it has happened before- an e mail with a co-worker. You know what you are doing on your end of the situation, but it is hard to know what someone else is thinking.  We all have different comfort levels with these kinds of things, which is why we need to consider having even stricter boundaries than we might like ourselves.

It's also interesting that boundaries affect how we behave with someone.

I might not be talking to a single man about a TV series we both like if we were alone or out in a place that was not a workplace. It may give him the wrong impression. The reason I can do this with this male friend is that I am a customer and in the place of his business and his wife is working there too. The main reason I am there is as a customer, but since I do know them, we sometimes chat for a few moments.

I also spend more time taking to the wife about mom and kid stuff. They both know that I am a married mom. So, in this context, there is no wrong impression from our discussion. It I thought there could be, then I would likely not speak casually to him.

As a sales person,  one of the things my employer trained us on was making personal connections in order to increase the likelihood of a sale. The text that you sent sounds like a connection making one rather than a personal one. The problem that I encountered is that pwBPD have difficulty with changes due to context - probably related to the black / white thinking.

 

Exactly!

Back in the day... .before the military.  I waited tables for a while.  Always best to connect with people you are serving... make it about them.

I call it being friendly and outgoing.

FF

Way back in former posts, probably you said why she is so paranoid about other ladies and the suspected second family you have. 

Where did this worry of hers originate, I never saw what triggered it.

 

Not sure exactly

At around year 15 of marriage we were forced from our home for about 6 months due to a natural disaster.  Bad flood.

Lot's of things changed after that.  It was a massive financial hit. 

The house (and farm) really never was the same after that.

Wacky accusations started showing up.  Looking back... .I did EXACTLY the wrong thing.  Invalidated, argued... JADEd

I kept going until I "won" the argument of the day... .but I lost the war.

I didn't know any better... .honestly thought I was doing the right thing.

Bad... .bad... period of our lives.

I wish I could nail down "ground zero" a little better... but that seems to be it.

Traits are there in her family.  Her sister is much worse than she is.  So, what I think happened is you mixed in some stress and ... .BOOM... .off to the races with her BPD traits.

There were a couple different "second family" things.

1 was the lady I "married" in our barn (right under her nose)

2 was the baby I introduced her to at McDonalds.  Just my luck we are at McDs playland and a militant breastfeeder shows up.  Whips'em out and starts feeding.  Well... .at some point she says the baby's name... .and it is the same as my wife. 

My wife has an uncommon name.

OK... .even though I didn't know about BPD then... .I knew at that point I was screwed... .bad...

I just had no idea how it would go.

Anyway... .later on she claimed that the child was mine.  Since the name was the same as hers, that was how the kid got "snuck" on my government health insurance (I was still active duty at the time... .). 

That story went on for months... .it would keep coming up... .and of course I kept feeding it. 

Until one day I had enough... .I set up a paternity test... .

Without batting an eye my wife said that the child was NOT mine... .but I was still sleeping with militant breastfeeding lady.

The creepy part... .is that my wife found out where the lady lived and made some attempts to contact her... .no idea what ever came of it... .

Boy... .those were the days of really "interesting stories". 

Now they "just" wake up mean... .|iiii

FF

Formflier I have to admit if I was your wife and I found that text in your phone I would be upset. I don't know what kind rules of engagement you and your wife have defined for yourselves in regards to others and it sounds like you have different expectations. Have you asked her if she prefer you not talk to that person? What would you do if she said yes?

The thing is... .there are times my wife would be ok with it and times she would not.

I'm ok with what I did all the time.

I have not asked her if she prefer I not talk to that person.

If she preferred I not talk to that person... .I would talk anyway. (letting a disordered person control your relationships (personal or business) is not a good plan.

FF

Form flier, it's not about control, it's about courtesy, and I inquired  if you had rules of engagement for members of the opposite sex. Also would it be possible to say person with a disorder as opposed to disordered person? Your wife still is a person despite her disorder. I hear a lot of contempt in your attitude towards her. Have you ever heard of the four horsemen of the gottman method? Also, it sounds like you did not think you were flirting and was looking for confirmation of that.

Everything I have seen from you, Formflier, has pretty much been a gentle attempts to redirect your wife. I don't think you were flirting. She is an emotional 5 year old. 5 year olds feel afraid and then create stories about why they are and they always find a boogieman under the bed.

I just think your wife found a boogieman to account for her fear: Loss of beloved husband and partner who is really supportive to her despite what a pill she is being. So she is jumping at anything that shows a hint of that coming loss. I am wondering if when the disaster with the house and farm came, she realized how powerless she was in the face of nature, life, and she can't ever ever lose you, what would she do without you?

Is there anything you can think of on a person relationship level with her to reassure her of your committment and love? I mean does she like little gives, or words... .what connects to her emotionally that helps her feel you are wanting her as ( sorry this sound so personal) a lover and romantic partner, not just as a life partner, mother of your kids and a wife who buys groceries, cleans the house. And 8 kids, geez, is there time and energy for it?

I mean well  

We have attempted to make rules of engagement in the past.  Have made them and then my wife will re-write history and I "should have known what she meant"... .etc etc.

What is ok on one day... .is not ok on the other.  Even went so far as writing down the rules and signing them.  When she wanted to re-write history, I "forced" her to sign the paper.  The paper and the signing was her idea.  

Again... this was all before I learned about what I was dealing with.


Yes... .possible to say it either way.  To me, same difference.


My attitude is more of "it is what it is".  When there are openings to "push" for better behavior... .I will put energy into that.  Lately, with the stress of moving, my wife has been acting up more.  I've had a long "easy" period (relatively) and have had to get my game face back on.  I think it's about back on.


I looked over that four horseman thing a bit.  Never specifically used it before.

I did not think I was flirting but wanted to get other opinions on how it may seem to others.  I don't want to float along thinking I'm always right.  Maybe there is another angle.

FF

Although I fully believe your intentions were not flirtatious, I think your belief that a "flirt is something that obviously shows sexual interest" is a little off the mark.

While everyone's perceptions DO play into this topic, a "flirt" can be a subtle probe to test the waters - not overtly sexual at all.

To be honest, a man who began flirting with me by "obviously showing sexual interest" might creep me out a bit.

If I were your wife, the text would bother me as well. For me, I would be concerned about your boundaries. There is a vast difference in communication between business associates and friends. You communicated with this woman you didn't know as though she was a friend, even though she was a complete stranger and a business associate. Perhaps you were hoping to become friends?... .that's what I might think if I were your wife.

Having said all that, "to the pure all things are pure" - I believe it didn't occur to you that it might be considered flirtatious because those weren't your intentions at all. :)

But I wonder how you might feel about the same text if your wife sent it to another man she barely knew.

100% fine with it.

I'm a big believer in "if the shoe were on the other foot" kinda thinking.

It's one of the maddening things about the disorder.  The double standards.

FF

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that not every issue in a marriage or r/s can be chalked up to the disorder.

If my husband sent that text, I wouldn't be particularly happy about it - this has more to do with my personal values and boundaries, and my expectations within a marriage - and nothing to do with anyone being disordered.

Perhaps you can take the disorder out of the equation and think about how to resolve the issue on that basis.

.

Hey... .to catch you and everyone up.  Paranoia is core to my wife's issues or "presentation" of her traits.

A lot of that paranoia is about women. 

I've tried lots of stuff over the years... .but continuing to do my own thing seems to work best.

Convincing her that I am not in love with another woman (bad news... .very invalidating).

Altering my behavior to suit her paranoia... .very bad for me... and for her.

She has sent me to talk to neighbors, friends, whatever... .that happen to be female... .and... you guessed it.  Accused me of wanting them because I did what she asked.

We've done a couples massage once.  She set it up.  She decided that the two masseuses would both be female.  And it was fine that day.  Then, the accusations started that I "enjoyed it too much"... .was thinking about the masseuse... .etc etc

I relate these stories to explain... .JADE... .whatever that "reasoning" or "approaching" my wife about my dealings with other women... .not going to happen.

If lots of progress gets made and she is consistently in a good place, sure... .I might try to approach her then.  That is not the case now.

At least in my r/s... .very little gets resolved.  The few things that get resolved... .rarely stay resolved due to rewriting of history.

FF

FF,

Allow me to present my point of view on this.

It comes down to this : you did not flirt in a man's world, but you did in a woman's world.

Men live in a world of facts, women live in a world of emotions.

For a man, you were just texting her about a fact (that she was discussing with you before). It would be the same if she would have been complaining about back pain duting the ride, and you would have texted her 'Hey, how's your back'. For a man, this is part of courtesy and making someone feel comfortable with you as a person.

Women however, have an entirely different focus in life. For them, the important part of life is all about emotions, and they look at the 'feelings' side of everything. It is just their primary point of focus in life.

Hence, for a woman, a relationship is mainly about sharing deep emotions exclusively with each other.  And the big nono, is to start sharing deep emotions with others.

So in her eyes, you started to talk about feelings with another woman, and the yellow alert came on. That's all.

Now her reaction of course is over the top, because of frustration, and testing you. When we continue to live in frustration, our expressions become more and more extreme. That is a natural fact. And probably her frustration is about you not standing up for yourself. She's testing your assertivenes, your willingness to enforce boundaries, and your ability to understand her as an emotional person, with all the between-the-lines communication that comes with it.

In short, she's testing if you are that strong and stable man of the world that she craves.

And you're failing each and every test, hence her frustration.  In her eyes, she's giving you ample chance to prove yourself, but you fail every time because you don't understand what's actually going on.

My 2 cents.

If you can agree to this point of view, we can start discussing how to handle it.

Jack

I don't believe that the limits are that hard in the definition of flirting, and I wouldn't expect your wife to believe it. (I doubt you had any sexual interest in the woman in question, and I'm certain you weren't either expressing it or considering acting upon it!)

If you express sexual interest in a woman (without any prior interaction), that is a catcall, a pickup line, or possibly even sexual harassment, not a flirt. Some women get (justifiably) angry about that. Others have different reactions. Just about none of them respond by expressing (sexual) interest in return.

In order for flirting to have ANY chance of success, you need to cultivate some sort of connection and at least interest in talking to you/being with you before you even TRY to show sexual interest.

Flirting can be indirect or subtle, so the word "obvious" really doesn't have to apply, even when it is getting down to expressing the sexual interest somewhere. Some people don't need to be hit over the head with a 2x4, and don't do things that way either... .


FF, you've already explained that your wife tends toward paranoia. When she's dysregulated, she is looking for reasons to believe you are flirting with women, if not having secret families with them. You've already described it.

Given that just being friendly/chatty/engaging with a woman is flirting, step zero, and a more overtly sexual flirt is step one, your wife ***IS*** going to assume after seeing you take step zero you are at least thinking of/planning on the next steps, if you haven't already taken them.

All people have a brain and a nervous system that produces emotions.  The assumption that some people (men) are fact-driven and some people (women) are emotion-driven, fails to recognize that identifying as "fact-driven" is in itself an emotion-driven adaptive defense.

"did you take care of your boredom?"... .Yes, this could totally sound to me like a bid to flirt... .it could even come off as a direct sexual reference depending on the context.   If I were 98 years old and in a wheelchair... .maybe not... .I assume that advanced age of 98 would put me way outside the range of reasonable potential sex partner for you... .but, if you and I were of ages that would make us reasonably acceptable potential mating partners... .and if you and I were in any way reasonably attractive and/or attracted to each other or the potential for attraction was there... .and had spent some time together in some neutral setting chatting... .and I was complaining to you that I was bored during this time (which may be my way of trying to get you to flirt with me ... .me complaining about my boredom to a strange man in a bar for example would leave me wide open for all sorts of suggestions from men about how to help me with my boredom, and they would likely assume I am looking for that kind of attention... .)... .so yes... .your sentence could come off as sounding like flirting... .not just to your wife... .but to the woman who received the sentence (again unless she's 98 years old or something).  If fact... .when I read it the first time... ."did you take care of your boredom"... .to my ear... .and based on a a lot of folks I know... .that would be code for or at least hint at... "did you masturbate or otherwise take care of yourself (sexually)?"  We live in a fairly pornographic culture these days.  It's getting so that almost anything can come off as a double entendre.  I think it's just the way the world is these days.

Flirting is often a very subtle and friendly way of showing potential romantic or sexual interest.  Lots of people overtly flirt with a lot of sexual overtones... .knowing that they won't have sex. And, flirting is often left intentionally vague.  That way if it's not well received or it gets you into hot water... .you have a lot of gray area for wiggle room.  That's why it is so hard at times to know when a person is just being friendly, or if they are actually making an attempt to flirt with you.  Many couples get into battles over this kind of thing because it can be so ambiguous.  

The intentional flirter can always fall back on just being friendly and warm. Many intentional flirters/players use the excuse of just being friendly as a way to push-off questions or scrutiny.  

Which can make the authentically warm, friendly person sometimes look like an intentional flirt even if they aren't.  Still, authentically warm people have to be aware of how they might potentially come-off and take responsibility for unintended mixed messages.  If they are not savvy about how easily this can go awry... .they can build their skills to understand how different people may receive their warm gestures in different ways.  

Non-disordered couples struggle with this kind of thing, too, b/c it can be such a gray area. Sometimes a partner doesn't really think their Husband or Wife is seriously making a play for another person or even flirting... .but has had experiences where their partner's warm behavior is 'read' as flirting to the recipient... .this is more likely to happen of course with opposite sex situations ... .you may be just as warm and friendly with men as with women... .but if someone were to misread your intentions it would likely be a woman of appropriate mating age... .and not a man.  

You haven't said anything about the woman in your car... .was she your age or younger, attractive, etc.?  I assume your wife didn't see her at all... .but read something into your text nonetheless.  

Flirting is a subtle and complicated area of human relating.  Bottom line, if there is a lot of trust (not just around fidelity but a good foundation for general trust... .a sense that my partner has my best interest at heart in general)... .then these things can usually get worked out.   If there is a shaky foundation of trust (a general lack of trust, a sense that my partner doesn't really care about my feelings or disregards my feelings) then of course these gray areas can feel like a big deal and can get blown-up as symbolic of the underlying dis-ease present in the relationship.  

No.  I'm not defending against anything; it's just how reality works : men chose to focus on facts, women chose to focus on emotions.  Free choice is a beautiful thing, but in a relationship it leads to problems of misinterpretation.

You've proven this point yourself by (being a woman) interpreting his remarks as flirtatious, while he clearly stated that that was not in his context.  All men here did not see it that way either.  As a woman, you've searched for and assumed an emotion (flirting) behind the fact that he said those words.  So you chose to focus on the (possible) emotion of the event, instead of the mere fact (words).  

When you say "that would be code for or at least hint at... ." proves that by default you're trying to interpret actions to look for underlying emotions.

As a man, you learn to double and triple check something before you accept a certain impression as fact.  If he would have continued texting in a flirtatious way, it would be confirmed as such.  He didn't, so for a man it wasn't flirting.

As a woman, you chose to go for emotion and assume the impression as fact before any checking.  The fact that he said something that could be interpreted as flirting, often makes it so.

I'm not saying any way is wrong, I'm just stating that men have a different focus in life than women, and are misunderstood because of it.

I'm not sure if the point of this thread is to conclude that FF is not flirting, or to consider that his comment may have landed in a "gray area" where some people would have felt uncomfortable with it and some people may not have.

If it is to decide that FF was not flirting, then I think we can say yes, FF was not flirting, he is right, his wife is wrong.

Or one can consider that people are varied, with different responses.

This was a business context. For anyone in the workplace, there are training sessions on sexual harassment and appropriate behaviors. Most of any discrepancies and issues concern comments and actions in the "gray" zone. It's pretty obvious that saying " ooh you have great legs" or a cat call isn't appropriate. This would be obviously inappropriate in the workplace and most people know better than to say things like this.

The issues that can possibly cause problems between people are statements that are interpreted differently by different people. This is why workplace boundaries are often stricter than personal ones- to avoid as much as possibly, any misinterpretations.

So, thinking factually: let's look at the evidence from this thread.

Some posters feel that FF's text crossed a line.

Some posters do not.

What is the goal here? What can this evidence mean to FF?

It means he can decide he didn't flirt, he's right, and continue his business communication methods.

Or he can decide that this may not be comfortable for some of his clients and change the boundaries.

No, this post is not to debate whether FF is flirting or not.  That is not the point.

It could potentially sound flirtatious or provocative (to my ear)... .and I believe it could potentially sound provocative to the recipients ear who is a woman... .and I gave several reason why that might be possible b/c I thought it might be worth considering for FF.  I am carefully using words such as potential or possible, b/c not everyone of course would have the exact same response, and under certain conditions I may not take it as provocative, either... .as I pointed out.   The point is... .this is an area that is very vague and differs for a lot of people and is highly dependent on an innumerable host of contextual variables.   That's why flirting is so... .slippery.  

Notwendy offers an additional point regarding misunderstandings and protocol around business transactions  vis a vie  the potential for sexual harassment in our culture... .which is in line with my observation about our current culture and how readily our everyday language has been co-opted into sexual references and double entendres.

All these things are alive in our culture right now.

It is complicated to be a human being.

These things, as well as the dynamics and overall health of the relationship between two people contribute to and inflame misunderstandings of this nature in my opinion.

All of the above are issues that are alive and separate from mental health issues... .which would of course only further increase the likelihood of complications and misunderstandings.

It doesn't really matter today what we think regarding FF specific incident... .The fact is it is complicated to be a human being... .interactions are often misunderstood or misinterpreted, our culture is currently highly sexualized AND... .even more to the point... .It is a FACT

A person with traits of BPD... .which is about being grounded in fears of potential abandonment... .would of course be even more likely triggered with the example given.

This is why we use skills to stay calm, not personalize, keep our side of the street clean,  validate any underlying authentic emotions, and move along with our lives the best we can.    

FF: I don't think your text was flirting.  At the same time, it did seem to introduce a personal element into what could have been a purely business transaction, which is probably what your wife was reacting to.  I get what you are saying about making a personal connection from a sales standpoint; still, that sort of personal note can be subject to misinterpretation... .I tend to keep business and personal pretty well separated in my life, so I may be more sensitive to this than most people.

 

First... .really no goal to get a consensus of flirting or not.  My goal was to examine something my wife brought up... .and for me to make sure there was an angle that I'm not missing.

I tend to be an outlier on the way I conduct myself in a lot of situations.  (I would say society has changed and they are the outlier... .but that is another story)  I'm pretty sure of myself... .but I don't want to be blind to the possibility I was wrong or "missed" something. 

These forums are great for challenging me, examining alternate ways of looking at things.  I can now "see" my wife's point of view a little bit clearer (and the point of view of many women).  If this text or a similar thing comes up in the future... .very likely I will be able to have a more productive or empathetic conversation with my wife about it.

Another goal is just to foster community discussion... .very common for pwBPD to make accusations about someone else's intent.  To put a "malevolent" spin on it.


Last goal (that I can think of right now) is also just getting to know each other a bit better... and the way people look at the world. 

Since we have thoroughly examined the flirting thing... .I'll say that "back in the day" when I was flirting I would usually work in some kind of compliment about appearance.  If I didn't do that... .I was "just being friendly" when talking to someone. 

I tend to be a very direct person (shocker to you guys... .I know... .    )  So I didn't spend too much time flirting.  If I was interested in a girl... .I would ask her out for a date.  I went out on a bunch of dates... .I got shot down a lot.  Didn't really spend much time wondering if someone was interested or not.  Figured that out pretty quick... . 

FF