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He will not admit he did anything, and has found a way to turn everything around on me. I know this is normal symptoms of BPD but I'm so confused on what to do. I'm very much in love with him and was actually aware of his BPD before we got serious and was willing to be with him regardless. For the most part we get along fantastic. we hardly ever fight and even before this when his BPD kicked in (mainly after drinking) I've been good about being there for him and giving him space at the same time and we usually got through it with little to no arguments. cheating is not acceptable in my eyes and I know I deserve better but i'm having a hard time letting him go. any advice at this point would be so helpful! TIA

 

*welcome*

First of all... .some big hugs!

 

I am so glad you found us... .and I feel for you and the situation that you are in.

You have found a safe place to discuss your r/s (relationship)

Please don't tell your boyfriend that you are on this site. 

Look to the right of the screen... ."the lessons" are a great place to start learning.  You have a lot to learn.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206

Above is a link to the lesson if you are having a hard time finding it when looking to the right.

Let's take it slow. 

Tell me about how you caught your boyfriend... .or what makes you think he is cheating.

Looking forward to your next post... .

FF

it first started when I found an empty box of condoms (we weren't using) then a few days later a full box with one missing. I asked him about them and he swore he would never cheat on me and told me he was using them to jack off. the more I thought about it he had never showed any other signs of cheating. when we weren't together he always answered my phone calls or text messages I received replys fairly quickly. there wasn't much time we weren't spending together. So I let the condom situation go. Then the other night I saw him texting at a very late time in the night and just calmly asked who he was talking to, he quickly got upset with me and said he wasn't texting anyone  and went sleep on the couch. it was eating me up inside all night, so the next morning I checked his phone and found messages to other girls the whole time I was sleeping. I never confronted him about what I knew just tried to bring up the argument from the night before and he got mad again and asked me to leave his apt. we didn't talk much that whole day. the next day when I asked if we were gonna talk about what happen he said there was nothing to talk about cause he did nothing wrong. I still at that point had not said I saw his texts. yesterday after also realizing none of our pictures together were on his FB acct, something in my gut told me to go check his tinder acct, so logging in to mine and hoping to scroll across his profile I finally found it and saw he had been active that day. but before I could confront him, he found out that mine was active and that I had deleted all our pictures off my page (which I did out of embarrassment) tried turning everything on me and broke up with me over it. we argued a lot (all through texts cause he refused to answer) I try to explain myself to him but he wasn't having it. now fast forward a lot of hate and me finally revealing the truth I knew ( which he didn't deny but seemed to have and excuse for) by the end of the night his texts became I a lot less harsh and more reasonable to the situation and then kind of turned into small talk about other things beside the fight. during his rage he told me to leave him alone so today I have tried my best but after coming across a quote that hit home I got emotional and sent him it. but then quickly texted that I was trying to leave him alone like he asked but it was just hard to do his response was "it's fine baby" im so confused, my friends think im being stupid for not being pissed and wanting him out my life but letting him go just seems to be something I cant grasps at the moment.

 

OK... .so... .did he cheat... .or not?

My answer... .other peoples answers... .your friends answers don't matter... .not a lick.

Your answer matters.

FF

I think that's what I'm so torn about. He has a history of doing so. before we started dating he was seeing other girls as well but i never classified it as cheating because we weren't dating. so many people warned me that he always cheats. part of me wants to believe him when he says he didn't but given the evidence in front my face I feel like he did. I don't know what to believe and talking to him about it is pretty impossible. He just gets mad and throws trust issues in my face. up until I found the condoms, I truly trusted him... and I don't feel that my actions were completely based on no trust. I felt I had the right to question the evidence, I feel an explanation should be given to me. but if I bring it up he gets frustrated with me.

Will you be able to figure this out without him?

Will you only be able to call it cheating if he confesses to it?

Do you feel that you need to convince him that this is cheating?

Do you believe his explanation about the use of the condoms?

No judgement here... .these are hard questions.  They are not for him to answer... .for me to answer... .or your friend(s).

Only your judgement and answer matters.

FF

I'm trying to figure it out but not sure I can.

I feel that just the texting is considered cheating, but him not confessing to it is giving me mixed emotions. When I told him I knew about the texts he didn't deny but gave an excuse then quickly turned it into me checking his phone (which I already felt very guilty about).  then he again turned the argument back to something else

I feel he needs to understand why I'm hurt by his actions, and that it isn't ok to do if you love someone. ( which he always tells me how much he does)

I believed his confession about the condoms at first and let it go, but I think I always had a little doubt but with no other proof of cheating I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. the doubt and uncertainty about them started more with the newer stuff.

 

Is he a person you can trust?

Is this the only thing that has ever brought up trust issues? 

FF

Before we started officially dating we hung out off and on for 3 months and he was seeing other girls, at first behind my back but once I knew about it we talked about the situation and we had never talked about being exclusive and I really couldn't argue his point cause we really hadn't. I was choosing to be exclusive with him and assumed he was doing the same. He said he was conflicted between me and the other girl and didn't want to jump into anything just yet. When we decided to become official we discussed the trust thing and about other girls and he reassured me it was just me and him. my trust quickly grew for him and I had no reason to believe he was doing anything behind my back. So he then lost his job and stop taking his meds and going to his therapist because of no insurance ... all seemed fine at first and he actually was handling everything fairly well. I"m not sure if this is a result of that but I feel it may be playing a part. the condoms were found about 2 weeks ago... up until then I was not having any trust issues with him.

 

So... .now... .today... .do you trust him?

FF

when his BPD kicked in (mainly after drinking)

----Can you write more about this?  How does it "kick in after drinking?"

---Did he give a reason for cheating, or does he still deny it?

Part of me wants to trust him and believe what he is saying but I'm so unsure

Majority of the time if he is not drinking his moods are good he rarely gets frustrated or shows any signs of BPD... .After having a bit much to drink... He gets very moody and frustrated easily... He also sometimes goes through spats of depression and talks like he has no self worth. He tends to push me away one minute and then will get mad if I don't talk to him .

He still says he didn't cheat on me

Read about "push-pull" and other relationship dynamics in the lesson.

This is a common presentation of the disorder.  You can use your knowledge of push pull to lessen the toxic impact of that behavior on your r/s.

FF

Hi Carog 

My understand is that BPD is not triggered by drinking. May I ask you why you think your partner has BPD?

CAROG,

When I was still communicating with the man in my life with BPD, rather than get in a no-win debate about whether he really did or really didn't do the thing I found to be an emotional betrayal, I would just sidestep and say "well, from what I perceived, I was uncomfortable, and I probably will always be uncomfortable if I see things like that, which to me, are a strong indicator of infidelity."  So you are mostly telling him, not what he did, but what it means to you, and what it will mean to you if you receive similar information in the future.

I think you have to decide if you are in a forward-looking place (you want to stay if he doesn't cheat in the future), or a backward-looking place (because he may have cheated, you are questioning whether you want to stay, or you do not want to stay).  I would stay away from the concept that what you want to do depends entirely on knowing for sure whether he did actually "cheat."  What you do know for sure is upsetting you (the provocative texting for example).  I think you need to decide what you want, based on what you KNOW, not based on what you might later be able to figure out.

If you are in a forward-looking position, you may want to accept and forgive what has happened to date, and stay, but with clarity on your boundaries.  Don't relitigate what happened.  Make a clear statement of what does not work for you going forward, one you are not going to waffle over.  Could be that it's "I can't be intimately engaged with someone who also engages in activities and comments that most people would think suggests a romantic or sexual interest in another person."

If you are in a backward-looking position, you may still be needing to sort out how you feel about what you know has happened.  Is it such that you don't want to continue the r/ship?  That's a possible and not unreasonable position.  Here too though, it seems to me you want to spend less time trying to figure out exactly what happened, and more time deciding the impact on you of what you DO know happened (the texts particularly).

 he was diagnosed earlier this year. he is still coping with it himself.  I do not think his drinking triggers it I just feel it intensifies it... .

so a little update we are officially broken up from Tuesdays fight but he has been texting me everyday and last night seemed to be bothered that I was out drinking with a girl friend... by the end of the night he was so drunk he was accusing me of talking/hanging with other guys and insisted he drive 30 minutes to my friends house to see me. I even snap chatted him a video of the entire room I was in to prove to him I was where I said and that I didn't take a guy back to her place.  fortunately his mother lives a few streets over and I was able to convince him by going with him to just sleep there instead of driving again another 30 minutes. He seemed to be very upset with me about the fact that I was at hooters drinking beer because I "must" be getting hit on by guys. he keeps telling me he misses me and that he loves me. he was so intoxicated there was absolutely no way I could get him to understand that he was the one texting other girls not me texting guys. part of me feels that he his showing signs that maybe he really does care. I've been hoping for the right time to make it a point to tell him that the texting is not acceptable to me and that his actions really hurt me. but last night was the first time he was willing to talk on the phone with me or see me all week. and last night was not the right time. he kept just repeating that he wanted to be loved. it breaks my heart when he doesn't realize how much I actually do love him. and when he is having a good day and seems to have less symptoms I know he is aware of it. I've always made it a point to remind him how much I love and appreciate him.

Carog,

I want to do what Formflier did and give you a big    & welcome you to the group ... .here you'll find friends who have been or are where you are. You'll find no judgement here only those who will listen with a friendly ear, and help you where we can in helping you find a path to walk.  I'm sorry to hear that things seem to be rocky in the relationship & know first hand what you're talking about. It's not easy ... .it never is ... .but you have to be honest with yourself & the situation and learn all that you can not only about the relationship but about yourself ... .BPD. With this new found knowledge you can make good choices in the path YOU choose to walk down ... .because only YOU can decide what path you walk ... .to stay, to go ... .to learn ... .

As FF points out, there are references to the right to check out along with the other forums & references. Since you know about his BPD going into it ... .I hope you've done your homework on BPD. NOTHING is and NOTHING will be normal in ANY relationship with someone who has BPD. NOTHING has and NOTHING will be logical in a relationship with BPD.  You have to do a lot of self evaluation, self reflection, look inward and ask yourself what you see in this person ... .what you admire about this person to be in a relationship with him. Will they make a good partner in the relationship? Will they be a good father or mother to my children? Will they teach them what a loving & caring relationship is suppose to be about? You kids will look to your relationship with their father & learn from it.  As you might have learned BPD is a learned behavior of survival early in their childhood ... .the 3 C's of BPD ... .YOU didn't Cause it!  YOU can't Control it! YOU can't Cure it!    They had it long before you showed up in their life and evidence suggest they will have it for the rest of their life ... .they'll need a lifetime of therapy ... .but like an alcoholic they have to want to go. 

Then you have to look at yourself and see why you were attracted to this person ... .really attracted to this person. I look inward at myself ... .and learned through therapy, this site, reading, consuming all that I could on BPD that i was a caretaker, that I was a NON ... .that I was codependent. My behavior, like all NONs is a learned behavior from our childhood. The good news is that its not damaging to a relationship like BPD is but can be damaging to oneself if not really addressed.  As hard as it's been, I've had to learn to say no ... .I 've had to learn to put my needs, myself, my wants, before others. I've learned as someone put in a post, "Their circus is not your circus". I went one step further and related it to the crazy train roller coaster ride we as NON experience with someone with BPD ... ."Their flying monkey's are NOT my flying monkey's".  BTW, the Wizard of OZ can be looked at as a relationship of a NON & BPD ... .Kansas = NON and the land of OZ = BPD.  When Dorothy says, "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto".

I digress, as a NON I've have learned so much about myself, the fact that my mother is a BPD, my sister is as well with her husband a classic NON.  I read something the other day in the members lounge that REALLY struck home, opened NOT only my eyes but those of others who read it. It was amazing tool to read & put in my toolbox to really learn about myself and that of a BPD ... .it's truly an amazing piece to the puzzle and everything else feel into place ... .not just for myself but from the comments I read of others saying the something ... .it seemed to be the "aha moment" / the "lightbulb" moment that we all were searching for. Since it's a long thread I will post it after this one for you & others to read. I feel that it's just such an amazing piece not to share with others who might not venture to that part of this sight ... .the author "2010" really wrote an amazing piece ... .

so with that ... .PLEASE come back to vent ... .read ... .learn ... .

J

COROG & group,

As promised ... .here is the piece from the members lounge ... .with "2010" as the author ... .I send a personal thank you 2010 ... ."THANK YOU" 

In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone.  This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it.  The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame.  They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment.  This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split.  If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love."  Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning.  The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child *understands* the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to *project* and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure. 

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction. 

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

Quote

Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control  control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs  the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self  devalue. Devaluing is more about projection  because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego.  The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other.  The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.”  The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects.  (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction.  Guess who has the best chance?  Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos. 

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole. 

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.  Idea The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin.

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain. Let those feelings come up. Journal your thoughts when you feel anxious. Learn about yourself. We must address the pain from our childhood that has been left unresolved for too long. We cannot escape from pain if we are to have personal growth- and you've got to get this relationship out of the way in order to get at the real hurt.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>>

Try to give that to yourself.

Hi Caroq, I am very sorry you're going through this. May I ask if you've heard of Al-Anon? Its a group for family and friends of alcoholics. It sounds like it might be helpful to you in your situation. There are also parents of borderline who go to meetings, you might hear from shares from them as well.

Is it possible that you can not respond to his texts when he's intoxicated? I know that when my fiancé is dysregulated and I engage with him in text I always get in trouble.

I am glad you are posting on this board. 

Good feedback you are getting on this thread.  Some of it may be too far ahead... .b/c when you are "in it"... .sometimes you are just in it.  Having said that, we as "NONS" often have our own wounds and with that our own cognitive distortions about love that hook into our partner's wounds.  You give a nice example of it above when you wonder, understandably, if his druken protest behavior might mean he really does have strong feelings for you. Yes he probably does have strong feelings for you, but that is less important than you think.   The more accurate interpretation would be, as mentioned in a previous reply... .he is drinking and it's impossible to connect with anyone when they are drinking.   He is using alcohol in a way that is not healthy, and then expressing some neediness only with alcohol.  And he is speaking of wanting to be loved, which speaks to a person who is not feeling loved or even able to take in love... .and no one, not you or any lover, can fix that for a him.  That is an "inside" wound that he needs to attend to.  This is exactly how we get hooked into the drama, b/c "NONS" also want to be loved but often also have trouble with receiving it due to their own (unconscious) wounds, but have a tape that plays about fixing others... .and once we do that then we will feel loved and we will finally have love.  All of this really an inside issue, not an outside issue.  But you can see how two people meet and perfectly 'hook' into each-others wounds.  And end up re-wounding eachother over and over again... .b/c we are always looking for "love" externally at the expense of ourselves.  Looking for a fix outside of ourselves will always lead to suffering and heartache.

Looking for love outside of ourselves is a problem, and it's one problem "nons" often do share with their BPD partner.  We may go about it a bit differently than they do, in ways that are more socially appropriate... .but this often makes us feel like we are more skilled than we really are when it comes to healthy relating. 

Carog---

   You wrote that after he was "Very drunk" you went with him to your mother's house?  It's dangerous to drive with someone who's been drinking.

  The quote about BPD not being "triggered by drinking" ---it might be making the symptoms (intensity, impulsivity, etec.)  worse even if it deosn't actually "cause" BPD.

From 2010---

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche

----So when they feel engulfed, they feel shame, and when they feel shame I find that they can project it out onto us. Then they verbally attack us, as the punitive parent shamed them