BPDFamily.com

Good evening everyone 

The question of questions, is my relationship healthy?

I've finally gotten to that point where I can ask that on this board. Its something I've talked about in meetings, with my therapist, social worker, family, prayed about, but never discussed in a community of people experienced in dealing with people with BPD. The closest I've gotten to it is talking to adult children of people with BPD and some of them tell me to leave.

I had an opportunity to read some of my fiancé's texts to my daughter and I see that he is very appropriate there. I have an unopened pantry box from my fiancé as well as earrings and a blender that he sent me this week because mine broke.

This week my fiancé talked to both my brother and my child's father on my behalf because they were both being difficult and problematic for me and my daughter.

I'm having problems with my daughter's gym teacher, or I should say she's having problems with her gym teacher and the teacher is trying to solve them  lol, and my fiancé is also willing to talk to the teacher to help me problem solve.

These are all positives in the relationship.

And yet and still my partner dysregulated tonight and called me abusive, a little girl, told me to f*ck off, told me I was full of cr*p, full of bullsh*t, told me I was manipulative, told me I was boring, uninteresting, all because I told him I observed that his voice was gravely, his speech was slurred, he was having a hard time making eye contact, he was repeating himself, he was praising me one moment and putting me down the next. All on FaceTime.

I am at a loss, and I am heartbroken. None of this is new behavior but today reached an all time contrast of highs and lows.

I am proud of myself for not picking up the phone when he called, unplugging the home phone, not begging him to come back, or allowing him to talk to me that way, that is progress for me. However I still remain in the relationship despite the face he not only verbally abuses me but tells me I'm being verbally abusive.

It is indeed crazy making.

I will tell you what gives me hope: this board and the fact that I can work down the list of choosing a path in an organized fashion. I have never gotten this far before to be able to take inventory. I don't know what tomorrow will hold but at least I can go to bed tonight knowing that I did not talk on the phone past my curfew or my bedtime despite the pwBPD threatening me. He said he is going no contact tomorrow because I refused to call him when my daughter was in bed. Good. I need a break anyway. I told him I need to find a way to describe his behavior to him without upsetting him but I don't think that's possible. I think the next time he behaves like that on FaceTime I'm going to have to end the call despite the consequences and that scares me.

I think that's a good place to end for now. I look forward to continuing to take inventory and perhaps finding a light at the end of this tunnel.



Thank you in advance to anyone who replies, it is very helpful to me.

This is where I would focus on if this is healthy behavior or not... .in my opinion.

What I'm seeing is a mixing of a romantic relationship and a parenting relationship when neither seem to be stable.

I seem to remember posts where there were problems on the  romance and trust side but there was an inability to deal with them because of all the help he was providing with the daughter.

To me, that shows that he has way too big a role in parenting/influencing your daughter.

I'm glad you are asking the question about is your relationship healthy.

Perhaps a better one is to ask what are some steps than can be taken to move your relationship to a healthier place.

Relationships are usually not healthy or unhealthy.   They exist on a spectrum.

In my opinion, yours is toward the unhealthy side.  A good dose of boundaries and role definition could help a bunch.

Each of you seems to have a bunch of big life issues that need to be solved.  My advice is to each of you is to work on solving those issues on your own.

FF

Isn't that what a marriage is, a mixture of romance and parenting? Isn't being engaged supposed to be a preparation for marriage? The romantic relationship is not stable because he just recently found out as a result of my legwork that his divorce hadn't been filed but the parenting relationship is fine. I'm trying to give my partner an opportunity to set things right, at the same time he's having to process his emotions about the divorce being messed up in the first place. I'm not cutting him a lot of slack here, I expect him to get it done.


Yes I was quite upset when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed in the system which is what started this whole decision making process for me, however there was no inability to deal with it at all. I think what you're calling help with the daughter is actually step parenting, so I'm going to refer to it at that from here on out if you don't mind.


Let's see, he's the only functional father figure my daughter has known, her own dad is more like a friend or uncle to her then a father. In terms of influencing my daughter? Ha, that's funny! I would like it if he would influence her but she is very independent and strong minded. I'm afraid there's not much influence going on there.


Its part of the decision making process, so why wouldn't I?



Role definition. I'm curious what you mean by that. Please enlighten me.


Really, like what? His divorce and my daughter? Well, considering we are partners there is no resolving stuff on your own, we are helping each other out.

Hi unicorn2014,

I have followed your threads and it is positive that you are working through the lessons.

You are asking whether your relationship is a healthy one, by default for the most part  because we post on these boards our relationships are not healthy, they are often very damaged indeed. From what I have read here and in your previous posts your relationship is far from healthy.

For me for your relationship to move toward a much healthier position it is up to you to decide what boundaries you need to put in place to protect you and your daughter from the confusion, dishonesty and more recently verbal abuse that your fiancé brings to his part of the relationship.

Better boundaries might also mean that your relationship does not survive, because your fiancée does not in anyway sound committed to being part of what a healthy relationship looks like.

It would also be very important for me as a parent to be sure of what any relationship really is before I allow someone to step into a parenting role with my child. The situation you describe here sounds messy and confusing to me as an adult, so for your daughter all of this must be really hard to make any sense of at all.

Does she have a T, or is there any support for her through school? If not this might be something for you to think about and support her with accessing.

My focus in all of this would be protecting my emotional well-being and that of my family. I would focus all my energy on living my life whilst setting out my expectations for what I want this relationship to look like, whilst accepting that it might never happen.

My starting place is that there could be no real relationship for me until my SO was divorced, because without this there is no clear commitment to move forward as a couple. This is a given for any healthy relationship.

This seems to me your only real starting point from which to build toward healthy. Without this you cannot move toward healthy because everything else is built upon this uncertainty. Everything else is just extraneous.

I wish we could say our relationships are healthy but alas, we both know better. My husband tries to step into the father role and has been extremely generous and loving to my daughter- he is the first to volunteer to step up and help with parenting issues, but unfortunately he raged at her about 4 years ago and she has never forgiven him. I was not there but everything she tells me that he said and did is spot on to the way he treats me so I tend to believe her side. He, of course, denies everything. Also Prince Charming one minute and calling me names and threatening me the next. It's heartbreaking. Why do we continue to put up with this over and over? Because every once in a while we see the wonderful person we met at the beginning of the relationship and keep holding out they will return. As you've seen in my previous posts, the wedding is upon us soon and he actually told me he would not be coming to the hotel that night to avoid stress and arguments ( he frequently loses it at special occasions and I hold my breath for what will happen at the end of the night) and since this will be a highly emotional evening he is doing the right thing and taking the pressure off me. So I see a glimmer of reasoning and a possible awakening that he realizes his behavior. I can only hope! I'm always happy to read your posts and appreciate your input on mine.

Click Here for entire article (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a115.htm)

Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

Healthy relationships are characterized by respect, sharing and trust. They are based on the belief that both partners are equal, that the power and control in the relationship are equally shared.

Some of the characteristics of a healthy relationship are:

Respect - listening to one another, valuing each other's opinions, and listening in a non-judgmental manner. Respect also involves attempting to understand and affirm the other's emotions.



Trust and support - supporting each other's goals in life, and respecting each other's right to his/her own feelings, opinions, friends, activities and interest. It is valuing one's partner as an individual.



Honesty and accountability - communicating openly and truthfully, admitting mistakes or being wrong, acknowledging past use of violence, and accepting responsibility for one's self.

Shared responsibility - making family/relationship decisions together, mutually agreeing on a distribution of work which is fair to both partners. If parents, the couple shares parental responsibilities and acts as positive, non-violent role models for the children.



Economic partnership - in marriage or cohabitation, making financial decisions together, and making sure both partners benefit from financial arrangements.



Negotiation and fairness - being willing to compromise, accepting change, and seeking mutually satisfying solutions to conflict.

Non-threatening behavior - talking and acting in a way that promotes both partners' feelings of safety in the relationship. Both should feel comfortable and safe in expressing him/herself and in engaging in activities.



Can you decide in what ways your relationship is healthy?  And isn't healthy?

:check: Good for you for sticking with your boundary!  

I think I recall him verbally "agreeing" to this boundary.  You did good to know that it is up to you to set and follow through to enforce the boundary.

I am a firm believer in boundaries. _{(even thought I am still working on seeing the need to set and enforce them myself)}

I am finding that by setting and enforcing clear boundaries that "unhealthy" relationships are revealing themselves and naturally unfolding to move away from me, while healthier relationships are being attracted to me.  

People have a choice on how they respond.  They can respect, adjust, or create tension to fight it.

Unhealthy people are turned off and offended by my boundaries.  Healthy ones are drawn.

Without controlling others or even making decisions about who I should put some distance in my life or not... .or who I should try to include... . Boundary setting seems to just be a natural result that gives me less stress in trying to consciously decide this kind of thing.

Lastly,

I suppose I am sharing a value or rather opinion with you... .

My value is that I do not allow my partner to be included in the parenting aspect of my life unless and until significant stability has been established as a partner.  (Not being clear about my partner's marital status would cause me to not allow him to meet/interact with my son.)

This is because I believe that a strong long lasting relationship and family is built on the foundation of the couple.  If the couple is not both equally and strongly committed, then the partner does not get to insert himself in ANY other role in my life.  He doesn't get to play family man before he has proven himself a stable and reliable partner, he doesn't get to meet significant people in my personal or work life, he would remain more of a "date" than a "husband role."  Our partnership comes first, during the relationship, and the creation of it.

I realize that for you... .you feel there is a "need" for this type of "help" _(dependence)towards you and your D.  _{I have been a single mom as well and it is not easy, I can understand wanting help from wherever it may come.}

That is why I explain that this is my opinion.  I am sure that there ARE people out there that have successfully built a relationship with parenting first, then a solid relationship.  I'm only stating that for ME, that would not work as it is in conflict with my values.

Just wanted to throw out another view for you. :)

Since you asked,  "Is my relationship healthy?"

The answer is "No.  In its present state it is not."

Status Quo is not acceptable to you.  Hence, the choice is to stay or to leave.

Either of these choice demands developing a specific set of skills.

He may change in response to change in you or he may not.  The hope and expectation of his change is dangerously seductive.

So, you are left to your own choice... .and in fact this is personal empowerment.

Making this choice is not a rational linear process... .I suspect your heart and mind are in conflict and hence the ambivalence.  It seems to me that he is ambivalent too... .he is unclear about his choices too.   

Could be that it is not BPD, but ambivalence that is directing his behavior.  Your expectations and hopes are justified... .but given the situation may be unrealistic.

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And I do wish to extend to you a personal apology on behalf of the entire board membership... .those who have posted their responses and those who haven't.  I can see where we have sometimes, misunderstood your situation, your intentions, your feelings, your emotions and therefore your frustration/annoyance with us.  I am sorry that we have not come through for you in a manner that you expected.  For we all are navigating the infinite shades of grey... .our little boats are riding  stormy seas... .it is definitely not a smooth sailing... .

So, are we being helpful?  If not, can you help us understand where the collective us can help better?

Parenting is a very difficult task, which requires bonding times and a balance between love and tough love in helping the young person forming their good habits and characters. Furthermore, if the child is getting into the teen years then parenting becomes a much more challenging mission because the child has already formed their characters and habits and he/she is trying to form their own identity from those of parents.

Here is the link to an article in Psychology Today,which points out one of the reason for the HIGH RATE of divorce in 2nd or 3rd marriage is children.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201202/the-high-failure-rate-second-and-third-marriages


Parenting job should be reserved for the biological parent. You can ask your fiance, as a friend,  for a 2nd opinion or suggestion but you must be the one that deal with  your child's issues, not your new spouse, let alone just a fiance. It would not take much for a rebellious child to say to the step parent , "you are not my dad or my mom" - That would ruin that r.s forever.

So you ask, "is my relationship healthy?". I assume that you want to hear some impartial view, good or bad, aren't you?  . You can take all the opinions here and then blend them in with your own views and then make your own decisions. Here are my 2 cents:

1. Your relationship is NOT healthy.

2. Too many red flags as noted in my earlier post . One of which is quite important, is the fact that your man still has NOT filed a divorce after 3 years of being with you - given that they have little or no entanglement like home, business or children.

3. Instead of being independent, you are slowly becoming Co-dependent. The fact that you have asked your fiance, to whom you are legally and morally not married, to deal with your child's issue is a sign of that co-dependency. Your child is yours to parent, not a stranger. Furthermore, he lives miles away and has only been with you and your child for short time spurts.

I am a 2nd time married person as well as my wife. I made it very clear that my children are my responsiblity and mine alone. I am responsible for their well being , discipline, college education , wedding cost ... .. I would ask nothing from my wife for my children, esp. financial support.  My wife and her XH are responsible for their children int the same manner. I was not looking for a mother for my kids , I was looking only for a friend and partner in life. So far 8 yrs later, we are all doing fine.

I understand we all are different. So the above are just my opinions, if you want a husband who is also a parent to your teen child, then please discard my opinions.

Hi everyone   and thank you for your input.   I have made the decision to stay unless something else is revealed . There are some misperceptions on behalf of the board which I will detail out when I get on my laptop. I appreciate all the input and support and for those who can follow me over to the staying board , I would appreciate support there as I start looking at BPD behaviors from the point of view of someone who is staying.

One major aspect of a healthy relationship is mutual respect.

How much is shared/lost with dishonesty, projections, verbal abuse, etc?

While you're the one bending/struggling to find ways to make this work?

Hi sweetheart and thank you for your response. I'm afraid that recently my daughter has been the most dishonest one in the family. In regards to verbal abuse, yes, that is a problem, and my partner has previously called his therapist about it. I know it is up to me not to respond to his verbally abusive texts, it is up to me to ignore them, and to be fair to my partner, my child's father is also verbally abusive in text. As far as confusion goes, I believe that I uncovered confusion, not that my partner created it. My partner says he filed and doesn't know his divorce wasn't filed in the court. What good is it going to do  to second guess him? The divorce is his responsibility and I told him I'm not interested in having a relationship with him if he moves out to my area without a divorce. There is nothing more I can do about that except support him as he  sets his divorce in motion. He is a business owner so I do believe he delegated his divorce to his lawyer and didn't check up on him. Am I happy he did this? No. Do I blame him? Not really, his story does sound plausible to me. I do not doubt his intention to divorce his wife. He has not lived with her for over 3 years and he really doesn't like her. He already closed down the business they owned together and sold the house they owned together. He warned me in the beginning that untangling his life was going to be messy since he was not only married but owned a business with his wife. He didn't lie to me about that in the beginning.


That part is untrue. My partner has had at least three therapists and two psychiatrists over the course of our relationship and is actively working the steps in a recovery program for adult children with a sponsor.


My partner is an excellent stepdad and that is what is giving me the confidence to move forward with him.


I think I have not represented myself well on this board so I hope that as time goes on I can paint a better picture of myself.

My daughter does not want a T, and I have already talked to the counselor at school about her and she has already talked to the counselor. I will be taking my daughter to a dbt class in January. She does not like talk therapy. I tried to get her to do it before and it blew up. The therapist did not want to work with her if she was not willing. You can assume that I have probably already tried most of your suggestions already. I first got my daughter to see the counselor in 4th grade which was 6 years ago and before I met her stepdad.


My fiancé actually made a commitment to me before he got divorced. I do believe that he filed his divorce and I do believe that something happened along the way and it didn't get filed in the court. Its not my job to prove that he is telling the truth.

I sure can. All of the healthy elements are present so I guess I just need to print out that article and focus on developing them.

I find this comment concerning.

It appears that you are "muting" the behavior of your fiancee by justifying that your ex is also abusive?

I am not sure how it is fair to your fiancee to compare him to your ex.  Either in a positive way or a negative one.

Can you clarify?

Do you think "blaming" yourself for listening vs boundary setting "mutes" his behavior?

I am glad that you are able to successfully be a parent without a partner, I am not, not with a teenager. I am clear about my partner's marital status, he is physically separated from his wife, filed divorce, and thought it was filed in the court but it wasn't.


I understand what you are saying but my partner inserted himself into my life as a fiancé and frankly I'm fine with that. I was in a religious marriage before I met him so there was no going back to dating for me. I also did not know about BPD or BPD traits or BPD family when I met him.


I noticed you put need in quotes. If children were meant to be raised alone we would not reproduce sexually as a species. It is a real need. I think you are totally misunderstanding me about wanting help from wherever it may come. I have had many men interested in me over the 7 years from when I ended my marriage to her father and met my fiancé. I'm actually finding your attitude a bit off putting. Perhaps we need to stop talking about this issue for now, if you don't mind.


I understand what you are saying, that is backwards, however I brought a child into the relationship that I had not had a partner in parenting. I was married however my child's father was not a partner. There is no relationship without parenting. My child's father refuses to be a coparent. I don't think you understand this. I can not raise a child on my own at this point, not when she is a teenager. I need someone to talk to and not just a friend I can call up. I need someone to help me with the decision making process. That is a real need. I guarantee you that nobody raises a child on their own, there is some help somewhere. My partner understands me and my issues in a way that no one else can. We both have PTSD and he has been able to explain that to my daughter and her father. That is why he is my advocate. I think people misunderstand me when they think that I am having my fiancé call people on my behalf. I am not. He is acting as my advocate. I have never had an advocate. This gets into personal stuff that is irrelevant to this board so I'm going to leave it at that. Perhaps I will get into some of those other issues on the board where you deal with having a BPD parent, and i'm not there yet.

Hi palla, I want to be clear with you that it is not my partner that is ambivalent but me. He has been clear from the beginning that he wants to be married to me. I am the one who started experiencing doubts as the BPD behaviors started showing up.


Yes and I appreciate this and I know why this is, as in my relationship with my partner I am the non, however if I were in a relationship with you you might be writing about me on this site.


Obviously you're being helpful because I'm still here. :) Once I finish up this thread or perhaps concurrently I'll be moving over to the staying board.

Hi once confused, I don't think you understand. My child's father refuses to be a co parent because I divorced him. My fiancé does not have a child of his own. I have never had a partner as a parent even though I was married. My daughter already calls my fiancé her stepfather and that was by her own choice, not because I introduced the word.



He filed, I found out it hadn't been filed in the court. He does still have an entanglement of business. Its taking a long time to wind down the business. He told me about this in the beginning. This wasn't self employed or a sole proprietorship, this was a corporation.


Wow, this is just really off the mark. I'm so independent. You don't know me, so its reasonable you would misunderstand me. I have never had a partner as a parent. My child is now a teenager. It is the perfect time for me to have a partner, and my fiancé can show up as a partner. My partner interacts with my child independently of me through text and the phone and FaceTime, sometimes initiated by my daughter. He is her stepfather by her choice.


I am glad your wife's ex husband is responsible, my child's father is not, I had to battle him in court for child support and that is still being played out. I am currently raising a child. If I'm going to be in a relationship that is what it is going to be about.


That is the only husband I want at this point in my life.

I do not think there is dishonesty going on, just so you know. The projections and verbal abuse? I think that's a mutual project. I've caught myself in my own projections and verbal abuse so I'm not going to be the pot calling the kettle black. I think I have really misrepresented my relationship on this board so I'm going to try to do a better job of representing it over on the staying board.

Lol!  lol This is funny to me.  :)  Muting? No I'm saying I'm the common denominator and I'm setting them off. My partner pointed out to me that I treat him, my child's father and my mother all the same: with contempt and disrespect. I don't think he's right however I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I might be wrong since I am making amends to people in my life. I actually opened up a conversation with my child's father about whether or not he feels I treat him with contempt and disrespect and my child's father actually said the way I communicated was a problem for him. I called my mother and asked her permission to ask her a question. She granted it to me and I have not called her back. I checked out the book on surviving a borderline parent but have not started reading it yet as I am currently dealing with a huge teenage crisis with my daughter with the help of my partner. I'm going to need to start spreading some of my issues out to the board about being the adult child of a parent with borderline traits and I'm not ready to do that yet because of the aforementioned issues.

I don't want to get into the compare and contrast between my child's father and my child's stepfather. I don't know that that is appropriate to this board which is about deciding to stay with my fiancé. I suppose I could say why my relationship with my child's father is a reason why I'm deciding to stay with my fiancé however I believe I will be shot down based on how people have responded to me already. I have already stated my fiancé acts as an advocate for me. My fiancé had to explain to my child's father how his style of communication sets off my ptsd. That is a definite reason to stay for me.

In terms of the verbal abuse I'm saying its my choice whether or not I choose to engage it. I can be pretty verbally abusive myself but I choose not to be because I don't like the consequences or the results. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see my partner as that different from myself. As I said earlier, in my relationship with my partner I am the non, in my relationship with you I might not be the non. I can tell you that when I was talking to my partner about my own problems he identified with them and that is how we started down the road to his recovery from BPD traits. I'm actually a helper to my partner as he is a helper to me.

I think people can read between the lines here and get what I am saying without me having to spell it out.

Unicorn, yes, your story is getting kind of confusing.

For example: One day it's, "He was verbally abusive to me, accusing me of being that way with him (but I'm not)", then today you're saying you're verbally abusive, too. One day it's, "He has until Tuesday to show me the proof", then it's "I don't need to see any proof."

Trying to offer support and advice but the story keeps changing... .

No, myself, I did not say I was verbally abusive, I said I had been accused of  being so in the past, by my child's father, and by my mother when I was a teen.  I am still working things out with my child's father in regards to that.

In terms of requiring proof of his filing, I believe that he filed with his lawyer and his lawyer didn't file with the court. He's getting a new lawyer. End of story. He is showing me the escrow papers on Tuesday. End of story.

The best thing I can say is that in my relationship with my fiancé I am the non but in my relationship with you you might be the non.

I am going to be moving over to the staying board and I hope that people can be supportive there. I know this is the undecided board so people are a bit harsher here however I have made the decision to stay so I hope that people can be  a bit gentler to me over on the staying board.

Unicorn,

I have a lot of respect for you.  Your ability for communicating on such difficult personal topics and to work with an array of differing opinions and perspectives seriously does amaze me.  You are looking at some really tough stuff…things I myself I do not believe I would have been able to process while IN the relationships I was in.

From the replies to my posts, I agree that there IS miscommunication happening here, I am not certain we are hearing one another clearly.  I do not want to go off topic of the OP, so I will not attempt to clarify any meanings that may have been misunderstood on either end.  

I will say that I did intentionally offer a differing perspective.  However, I feel that we actually agree on many things that may not be easily apparent.


I had no intention of demonstrating a poor attitude.  I did not write or reply from a place of triggered emotion.  My words were coming from a thoughtful and caring place.  There is so much regarding your story and journey that I am able to relate to, have compassion for, and I was replying to share and connect stories…in hopes that the words would be mutually beneficial for processing.  I am sorry that this was not conveyed to you.  This is actually something that I am working on myself.  I am working on speaking/listening in a way that is more easily received/heard by who I am talking to.  

I will continue to work on this.

This reply may sound a bit like JADE, I am not perfect in the “not JADEing skill” yet.  I reread it and tried to take out the JADE but still can see it…so I hope that none of this message sounds offensive.

Warmly,

~Sunflower

Hi Sunflower,

I am sure from the point of view of non my relationship is unhealthy, however I am not sure from the point of view of  BPD my relationship is unhealthy. I don't know that my relationship will ever look healthy to a non. I'm fine with that.





I don't think you have a poor attitude!   When I say I find your attitude off-putting I meant it find it kind of harsh and that's hard for me as I'm trying to transition over to the staying board. I understand that this is the undecided board so that people are a bit harsh, I only hope they can soften up as I move over to the staying board. Your attitude is fine!



Not at all, I am the one who is getting defensive because I feel like I'm getting attacked, not so much by you but by the others. I understand that this is the undecided board so people are going to be a bit harsh, I can only hope they soften up towards me as I move over to the staying board. I understand the ridiculousness of me asking a non undecided board if my relationship is healthy however in my relationship I'm the non, so I had to ask the question. It does take a lot of work and effort for me not to be triggered by the posts here and I suppose I was a bit triggered by the last flurry of them. However I am moving over to the staying board and I can only hope things are going to get easier there. I'm also making a caveat that should something else be revealed I might have to move to the leaving board, and I hope that doesn't happen.

Sorry you feel some of the replies have been harsh/not gentle enough. You're asking us for our honest opinions, many of which come from having been in similar situations as you're finding yourself in now, our struggles and etc. Maybe it's a case of wanting to hear the truth but not quite being ready or open to it? I know that was something I went through, when I was still in my r/s and things were still so turbulent/uncertain. There were times here when someone would say something and I just couldn't/wouldn't process it at the time (also experienced this with a T). Because I resisted it, she had her hooks in me, I thought that turning the other cheek would do, whatever. If you already know you're going to stay with him, great. I truly hope it works out for you! I'll end by saying that I haven't read anything like an "attack" in anyone's reply, to any of your posts, and that taking the time to read, digest, and respond does seem done in the spirit of being helpful and supportive. Here's to finding even more of that on the Staying Board.

Myself, I'm sure some of your borderlines were the same as mine, but I'm quite sure most of the non are not  the same as me. That is the difference. I know full well now what non think of my relationship. I also know what borderlines think of my relationship. The non are critical, the borderline are not. I am moving over to the staying board in the hopes I can find more help there. If I didn't find this place helpful I would leave. I'm making myself vulnerable to a site full of non who have a lot of anger towards borderlines because I want to make my relationship work and I still get triggered in it. Thank you for taking the time and energy to reply.

Unicorn,

Thank you for clarifying what you mean by off putting, yes, I have been told I am "blunt," I admit that, again, sorry!  _{Both cultural and personality reasons}  Not to JADE!  

I find your story so similar to two past relationships that I have had.  Writing and processing is also therapeutic to me and I do my best to respond to posts that I feel I may be helpful in some way.  _{Your story resonates with me on several levels.}  


You are dealing with some tough stuff, and tough questions, and being confronted from many angles and opinions and putting forth a lot of energy to work very hard at it all.  This is understandable that it would be difficult and stir up emotions... .even possibly emotions on both sides of the conversations.

Sometimes I post by offering an alternate opinion or perspective, in case it may be helpful.

If you would like me to clarify my message and try again, I will only do so if invited.

Otherwise, I can be content to leave it be and enough for now.


Warmly,

Sunflower

Agreed. Unicorn, we're all trying to validate your experience and point you toward lessons and tips that might help. But then you seem to be getting annoyed or frustrated with us, and that comes through in your responses about how that's not your experience at all, you've already read that lesson, this is completely unhelpful and can we please talk about X totally different issue instead, etc. My guess is that our advice is triggering for you in some way, and I'm sorry for that and that's why I haven't responded to you in a while   Do you have an idea of why you're feeling triggered?

If you want honest opinions on whether your relationship is healthy, I'd say it sounds like you have a long way to go before you're in a position to have a healthy or stable relationship with a pwBPD. The non has to be emotionally rock-steady, independent (as in not relying on the pwBPD for anything at all), and keep their cool in a lot of very trying and inflammatory situations. It takes a level of emotional health and stability that honestly not many people have.

On top of that, the non has to be able to tolerate treatment that most people would consider abuse, and remain emotionally unfazed. I'm not sure it's healthy or desirable for some of us to TRY to tolerate abuse like that, even if we're strong enough to. Especially for those of us who experienced childhood abuse or past abusive relationships.

My feelings on that issue with my relationship are, now that I have cultivated this level of emotional health and strength after an emotionally abusive childhood, why would I want to willingly go right back into a relationship where I am emotionally abused, rarely heard or allowed to speak my feelings, and often invalidated? Even if I'm strong enough to handle it, I don't want that for myself anymore.

Yes I know why I'm feeling triggered but as that is not relevant to my position as a non in my relationship and on this board I do not think it would be wise to share it.


Yes you have correctly identified the problem. My person wBPD is filling in the gaps where my child's father is falling short. We are interdependent, not codependent. There are gaps that need to be filled in. Would you rather have those gaps stay unfilled so I can remain independent?



That may be true, but since I know I have the capacity to be abusive myself I am not afraid of abuse. I have been accused of being  on both sides of the equation so therefore I can not point my finger at my partner and say he is all bad and I am all good. I have not been abusive to him, I am talking about my past.


I understand that and that is not my relationship. I am emotionally abused when my partner is emotionally off the beam, however I am heard and I am allowed to speak my feelings. The last time he emotionally abused me was  because his mood got out of control, and part of that was because he had started dealing with the problem people in my life (my brother, who has a very abusive personality,  and my child's father). My partner had previously told me his stress made my stress look child's play. After he dysregulated after talking to my child's father and my brother I told him I did not want to hear about my stress being petty anymore as it was obvious he couldn't even take one day of it without falling apart. I am on a mood stabilizer, he is not, he is afraid it would flatten out his emotions, I know it does not flatten out mine as I am perfectly capable of getting angry despite the fact I'm on a mood stabilizer. I'm leading my partner along the path of recovery. My former partner did not want to follow me along the path of recovery and that is why I left him.

If you want to have a healthy relationship with your fiance or anyone else, you need to learn to fill the gaps yourself, or fill them by relying on someone who is actually reliable. You can't make meaningful choices about a relationship or enforce boundaries when you're relying on the other person in this way. What if you concluded your relationship was unhealthy? You wouldn't be able to leave. If he never gets a divorce, what are you going to do?

this again, that's just it, I'm not relying on him. I have really misrepresented myself on this board and I don't know how to undo that. I was doing fine without him. He is helping me. I will do fine without him. However he is helping me, so why would I want to give up that help? He has proved himself reliable in most things except for the fact of the divorce not being filed in the court system.

As I said I am sure most non think my relationship is unhealthy and I'm sure most recovering BPD think it is not unhealthy.

I can enforce boundaries with him. It is up to me to end the FaceTime call if I feel unsafe. It is up to me to ignore the text message if I feel triggered. I got a triggering text message from my child's father when I was in session with my social worker and my social worker told me to ignore it. I don't just have this problem with my partner. That is what I'm trying to show the board. I am the common denominator. I am having the same problem with both men. It is just more pronounced with my partner because I have more interaction with him, I ended my relationship with my child's father.

PS If I needed to leave, I would leave, I don't need to leave yet. I've told my partner there are certain things I would leave over, like the silent treatment.

PPS I think the bigger question is can I manage the level of anger and frustration my relationship causes me, which is something that was mentioned early. And right now the answer is I don't know, but I'm going to keep trying until I do know that I can't do it anymore.

I'm a recovered BPD and I think your relationship is very unhealthy.  He is not a biological parent, he should not be parenting your child.  He is clearly lying about the divorce and you continue to believe his words and not his actions.  He verbally abused you.  This is all unhealthy.

That's a moral stand point. He is her stepfather. Do you expect my child to have no father? He is not clearly lying about the divorce. His actions are he went and met with a new lawyer, he called two friends asking for recommendations for divorce lawyers. Yes, he verbally abused me, that is the unhealthy part. However i responded to it instead of ignoring it. That is also the unhealthy part. What it is about me that makes me have to respond to verbal abuse? Why can't I just let it go? And far as I know recovery from anything is a process not a finished product. What steps did you take to recover from BPD and did you have an actual diagnosis of BPD?

Yes, I was diagnosed 12 years ago and was inpatient for a short period  of time.  I was in therapy for 3 years and have been in a 12 step recovery program for 11 years.  I have a sponsor and go to 4-6 meetings a week.  I sponsor women.  I have lived with my boyfriend for a year.  I've had the same full time job for 5 years.  I no longer meet BPD criteria.

It is your job as a biological parent to parent your child.  Your bf does not live in your city.  There is no proof that he ever filed for divorce in the last 3 years.  Are you speaking to a therapist regularly about your situation?  What action will you take when he can't show proof of filing for divorce or escrow papers?  I feel for you because I used to accept this sort of behavior.  My exbf was married and lied about it, he ended up leaving his wife for me.  Eventually I realized I deserve better and I have better now.

What is it about you that makes you accept verbal abuse? Or that makes you think you deserve verbal abuse? I think it's natural and healthy to respond to verbal abuse--by setting boundaries and, if it becomes a pattern that the abuser blames you for or is otherwise unwilling to remedy, ending the relationship. Blaming you is just more abuse. And if it's true that you're both verbally abusing each other, do you really think that makes the relationship MORE healthy?  

He is not married to you. Legally and based on your boundary, he can't be married to you until he gets the divorce. He hasn't done that, and he's been deceitful with you about it. That isn't a stepfather. You're doing both yourself and your daughter a huge disservice by allowing him to play that role.

hi unicorn

way upstream in this thread SunflOwer posted a cut and paste about what generically makes a healthy relationship.

that's a pretty helpful list.   there is more here in this link:

The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a115.htm)

you've received a bunch of thoughtful opinions and advice based on the collected experience and wisdom of a group of interested and compassionate people.   

in the end though the person who's thoughts and opinions really matter are yours.   no relationship is perfect.   every person brings baggage and issues to the table.    folie.   you have expressed some concerns and rightly so.  all of us have concerns.  that's pretty much why we are here.   

it's been my experience that nothing in life is black and white.   sometimes I have to live with a level of ambiguity.  sometimes I can't live with that much ambiguity and need to make changes.   sometimes I have to let things go.   I can do all that in very small increments.   

you have been doing a lot of work, pulling thing apart and reaching understanding.  you're doing a good job trying to sort through a difficult situation.    |iiii

'ducks

He is not my boyfriend he is my fiancé.

It is apparent to me you have not been reading my posts or else you would know that I was in therapy for 8 years and recently went back in because of a crisis.

I think you are being really cynical here.

I am glad you have better now.

I don't think I  deserve verbal abuse. I didn't say I was verbally abusing him, I said I felt I was verbally abusive in my former relationship and my former partner still thinks I communicate with him in a difficult matter, which I'm trying to amend.


I don't think he's deceitful with me about it at all, I think he neglected to follow up on his divorce, there's a difference. I think that you're not understanding my situation so I'm not sure how profitable for me to keep discussing it.

Yes baby ducks, and I tried to find the original so I could print it out but it isn't there. I actually read that before I posted, which is why I posted.


I didn't always experience the opinions or advice as interested or compassionate.


Thank you for your reply , I did find it helpful.

I understand.

I think you might know the nooks and crannies of this website better than I do.

what do you think your take aways from this thread are?   did you learn anything you didn't already know?

I have been reading your posts, but I didn't memorize it.  One of the things that helped me when I was in conflict in my former marriage was writing out what I wanted in a healthy relationship.  With my ex boyfriend, I had discovered that he was still legally married by doing an online search.  The information that he gave me didn't match what I found and I stayed in that relationship for several more years.  My marriage ended because my husband was lying about finances and what he told me didn't match what I was experiencing. After I left,he relapsed and nearly died.  :)uring our time apart I wrote out what I wanted in a relationship and what was acceptable.

When my former husband got back in recovery, we discussed getting back in a relationship.  One of our core issues was truth around finances, so he made the decision to have his checks deposited in my bank account.  I know exactly what he is spending so there are no secrets.  I also stated that we both had to be active in 12 step recovery in order to be together.  He has his program and I have mine.  If we have issues, we each go to our sponsors and come back together to talk things through.  There are no ultimatums, just common goals for a healthy relationship.  Writing out my values helped me to see what was missing in those relationships.

I don't believe that I am a cynic, but I firmly agree in what another poster said - I judge people on what they do not what they say.  My ex boyfriend said many things- that he wasn't married, he didn't live with his ex, later that they married out of convenience.  It was all lies.  Once I started to write out what I wanted, I saw that those things didn't match the relationship I was in.

When I became healthier the 12 step work, behavior that was acceptable to me became unacceptable.  My relationship is not perfect, but I try to see what I can bring to a situation.  Occasionally my partner will get angry, but we talk through our feelings instead of lashing out.  We don't keep secrets.  

thank you baby ducks, I learned that I really have to work through my anger so that I can validate my partner. I remember that was a stumbling block for me on the staying board which is why I came over to the undecided board to recommit to my relationship. I was able to do that so I'm going to back over to the staying board and work through the BPD behaviors from the perspective of staying. Hopefully by the time I get to validation I'll be able to do so. I also learned that its up to me whether I respond to verbal abuse or not, only I can make that decision. I also learned thats it up to me to hold my own boundaries, whether my partner likes them or not. Finally I learned its very important to communicate.

I was talking about recovery from BPD not from substance abuse, my partner is not a substance abuser, my child's father is, however my partner and I are both in recovery for adult child issues.

What is a healthy relationship?

To most that would seem one where transparency, truth and honesty are paramount. In short a relationship without warts.

However when dealing with a relationship were personality disorder issues are present that is often merely wishful thinking that can doom you to disappointment and failure.

What is important is that any "warts" or behavioural issues are present is that you can see them for what they are and adapt your perspectives to work around these. It is best to avoid being overly triggered by well meaning folks trying to point out these "warts'. This can push you into a corner or even JADE mode so that you move from your open and accepting of issues mode to defending yourself over them. It shifts the focus from the dealing with issues to defending them.

My RS is at what I would call at a successful and healthy stage now, but it is still riddled with many BPD behaviors including compulsive lying, self centered behavior and neediness, all of which fly in the face of what is normally deemed a healthy relationship. What is important though is that i am completely aware of it and am fine tuned as to what I can just let flow and what needs cutting off. Only someone who has lived with someone, become educated about a disorder, and put it into practice can make a call on those lines in the sand.

People will always have what they see as helpful advice, but one of the skills as the non is to learn how not to be triggered and what issues need not be raised if you have a handle on it. Part of that comes from a desire to have validation for your own previously made decisions.

We have all read the standard tools and skills, and can predict the advice that is likely to be given in a particular circumstance. If you believe you have already found a workable solution to these issues then it is best not to throw them into a forum were the responses are likely to be predictable. This can only lead to a backward step.

There are many areas in my RS that are completely contrary to the advice i give here. My advice is based on what is most likely to work for most people. The choices that work for me are those that have proven to work for me, they may be dysfunctional, but i am aiming for a harmonious relationship not the "ideal" relationship.

If you find yourself constantly defending a choice, move away from discussing it, otherwise continually defending compromising your attention for dealing with your choices, and pushes you towards blocking alternative choice. If you end up blocking alternatives then your original choice then becomes the default.

Living by default, having denied or blocked options, is what condemns us to a path out of stubbornness. Stepping away before stubbornness kicks in is a valuable, and difficult to master, life skill.

Waverider

Thisagain, I want to thank you for this observation.  It seems so obvious now that you've written it out, but somehow, I hadn't grasped this until I read your post.  It explains so much about why there is something inside of me that rules out what I know would "work" with my BPDex (never complaining or objecting, greeting him with warmth and affirmation no matter what he does), even though a part of me regrets not continuing the relationship we had going, which, in many ways, was quite fulfilling.  I think it's what you're flagging here -- those patterns and habits are what I've spent most of my adult life recovering from.  Voluntarily staying through what is objectively abusively behavior just cuts against some core value deep inside me now, though earlier in my life, I've have done it without a second thought.

Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you wave rider, yours is the most helpful post on this board, and what I was looking for. If I expect my relationship to look like other people's I'm going to be sorely disappointed. I was talking to my partner tonight about how I saw his dysregulation coming from a mile away and how I knew it had nothing to do with me. I likened it to standing on the shore at sea and seeing a storm come in. I told him next time I will tell him, honey, I think there's a storm blowing in and I need to go to bed soon so I'm going to say good night now and I'll talk to you in the morning. He agreed that he would not react badly. Now when push comes to shove and we're in the moment things might not go so well, but at least we had several dress rehearsals. At that point it is my responsibility to ignore his text messages after I say good night because we've already worked out ahead of time that that is what I'm going to do. Now normal people would say "that's crazy" but as you said they do not know about living with a person with a personality disorder on a day to day basis. That's what I'm looking for: people who live with a person with a personality disorder on a day to day basis, by choice.

I realize that.  The psychiatrist that diagnosed me recommended weekly therapy along with 12 step work.  Substance abuse is one of the 9 criteria that can make up a diagnosis, so that had to be addressed before I could deal with my interpersonal issues.  Working through a 4th step has helped all of my issues, not just the substance abuse.  Making amends required me to change all my dysfunctional behavior patterns. My partner is borderline as well, he was diagnosed 20 years ago and spent a significant period of time inpatient.  He has addiction issues as well and the biggest changes came from both his intensive inpatient therapy, along with 12 step work when he got out.  Al-Anon and CODA are also 12 step based for those with issues other than addiction.  He has been inpatient for BPD more than 10 times and he didn't really start to get healthy until he worked the 12 steps.

I am glad you have a healthy relationship, I do not. Nevertheless I am staying and not leaving, my choice, and perhaps I'll make a different choice in the future.

Role definition:  Who is supposed to be doing what.

My advice here is to focus first on being a parent.  That is your primary responsibility. 

My hope would be to focus on what co-parenting can be accomplished with the father and fill in the rest of the parenting gaps yourself.

Remember, your daughter is watching all of this.  What you do (and who and how you choose) will be making a big impression on her. 

If you find a stable person to help with parenting... .it might be a good idea to allow them to help in a limited fashion.

Introducing unstable and or unreliable people into the parenting mix has the potential to Exponentially increase your problems... .vice decrease them.

If you get into the mindset that everyone is helping everyone else with their problems... .enmeshment can and very well likely will occur.  Role definition will limit this and people will not be helping outside of their role.

Hope this helps explain.

FF

Coparenting? That's a joke. Her dad is an active drug user. My fiancé is helping me out. I accept my relationship is unhealthy and I'm ok with that.

Thanks, I put a lot of thought into posting here and I'm glad my words were a help to someone 

As for the rest of the thread, you can lead a horse to water... .

Yes, I put a lot of thought in to this too. I wasn't asking the board if my relationship was healthy, it was more of a self reflective post. I am very sorry for how I worded it, it really gave the wrong impression.

*mod*

The thread is now locked for reaching post limit.