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Like many on these boards... .we used to get in raging text and phone and email battles.  My life is much better now that I ignore texts like this.

I've tried some validation in the past (via text) and if I missed the "target"... .it seems to escalate... .big time.

Asking about her emotions seems to escalate as well. 

But... .I'm genuinely interested in if there is a better way to "calm" or "help". 

Note:  my comments about "surging" was a bit of a dipping my toe in the water to see if she was better (she wasn't).  If there was a kind response my plan was to call and talk to her.  I left home early for a medical appointment this morning.  She was cranky when I left... .claimed to not know about the appointment.  She knew.  We discussed last night, and day before... .and it was on her calendar... .etc etc etc. 

below is the exchange  .tried to take out names and such

ff wife : (ff) last night when you brought things in from the van for our trip you didn't bring everything in its a mess we can't find James the shoes for school this morning I managed to find clothes to get him you ready for school you brought in your laptop bag which was sitting right next to mine which you left in the van he left my purse in the van he seem to have taken care of yourself and no one else the living room is just an absolute wreck it needs to be cleaned the laundry needs to be done you got up this morning didn't like any of the rest of us up as I have done for you you are not depressed there is nothing wrong with you you are just absolutely lazy you are not working right now and you are not applying for jobs and you continue on as if there's nothing wrong I will not be going to work any longer because I obviously need to be here to take care of the kids I can't do both anymore you need to find a job 6:33 AM

ff wife: Your feelings for me do not matter here you have created 8 children and you need to support them... .Your military retirement plus disability is not enough to support a family this large whether or not you convince the military you cannot hold a decent job... .we both know you are more than capable 6:38 AM

ff wife: If it is one of your buddies encouraging you to act as if you cannot hold a job in order to get more disability please ask yourself this question... .Does he have a job? Is he working to support his much smaller than ours family?/why aren't you? 6:49 AM

ff wife: You can hold a high paying job and excel at it... .You just don't want to. 6:50 AM

Me: Surging on Monday morning 8:00 AM

dinah new google voice: A few hundred bucks every few weeks isn't enough 8:20 AM


That's the end of it... .sigh... .

I'm having an ok morning in spite of this... .I see why people get in the habit of "blocking" certain people from communicating with them.

FF

 

We are in the middle of a move.

We came back from delivering some items about a days drive away.

She went to bed... didn't help unload.

FF

Hi FF,

A common theme I have seen with the texts from your wife typically sends is her reaction to messiness (chaos). She seems to get very stressed out when there is disorder. Moving is a stressful time for anyone, I can imagine that it is really stressing her out.  Have you noticed this as well?

For some reason, I never imagined our veterans coming home from the country's wars to situations like this. 

But it makes total sense, doesn't it? Spouses who aren't psychologically healthy can become even more unhealthy under stress, and become abusers rather than supporters. Geez.

Does the Veterans' Administration have any support for members who are in situations like this? Would they like to hire a veteran with experience of a situation like this (as evidenced, maybe, by something very like this text message barrage) to create support models? Or create a VA-specific website similar to bpdfamily?

I wonder if something like the work you've done on this forum could provide a path to a new calling.

I would validate to her that things are very messy and stressful right now as your family is going through this transition and that things being "up in the air" can really make a person worry.

She is worrying and then getting really mad about the daily "mess".

Obviously she is not the only one going through the move, the kids are, and you are. It's falling onto you in ways I would personally find hurtful and frustrating.

Speaking of Vet's assistance stuff, is there any way you could get someone to come in a couple of hours a day to help assist with the household stuff? I mean are you eligible for something like that or is there a local group who offers support to vets?

FF, I agree that this is a stressful time for you and your family and also, that I wish there was more help for our veterans.

I hear some recurrent themes in the exchanges between the two of you. I wonder if they keep coming up because they are not resolved or addressed?

Although validation is something we need to learn, the motive for validating should be addressed. Are we validating from a place of control- do we want the pw BPD to calm down, be happy, be peaceful... .or are we validating with a genuine motive to hear them and consider their perspective?

I would dare say some of us do this for the first reason. Seeing the point of view of someone who we don't agree with, someone who triggers us is not easy. Yet, it is their feelings and reality.

It was an eye opener to hear how invalidated my mother felt. I saw my father as a victim of her behavior. As a child, we had no choice in the situation, so at a young age, we were victims. So when my mother starts speaking as if she is a victim of us kids and our father, it made no sense to us.

But the truth is, we had written her off in terms of any credibility, made her the bad guy, stopped listening to her long ago. My task as an adult was to actually listen to her and bite my tongue... .and connect with that pain she had. I could connect with feeling invalidated as well.

I see a couple of recurrent themes for your wife. One is the seeming role reversals for the two of you. You have mentioned before that your family is a traditional model. I also think that there are different models for families, and that families choose which one works best for them. It may be best for all involved if you stay at home while she works, but this doesn't mean she is comfortable with it, and she may be expressing that.

I hear her concerns about your family's financial stability.

I also hear her discomfort with disorder.

Although you are doing the best you can, and a move is disruptive, is there some way you can hear her and connect to her feelings?

 

It continues... .


ff wife: A 45 year old man trying to have himself declared unemployable because he can't have the job he wanted and so just does not want to work is disgusting. You cannot have it both ways... .Either you are too 'disabled' to be employable and need to give me complete control of our finances and all material possessions and decision making for our family or you are not so disabled and are able to work and help with decision-making at home. 9:37 AM

ff wife: Does your posse of buds you are getting advice from know social services removed you from our home? 9:38 AM

ff wife: I can handle a broken man who is mentally not OK... .(ff psychologist) claimed to "fix" that... .I can handle being screamed at and blamed for literally almost everything that goes wrong in your life by a mentally not OK man who needs help... .What I cannot tolerate is an able bodied man who promised his wifebhe would provide for his family and she could raise their 8 children sucking the gov handout tit because he wants to somehow be retired. 9:41 AM

ff wife: And if it is true... you are unemployable and losing these last two county manager jobs was in fact your fault then you need to admit that publicly. 10:06 AM

ff wife: As of right now if you passed away... .I would be left with 8 children to raise on $11.75 an hour... Plus the $22000 a year I wld get of your retirement... .You refuse to let your dad pay any money towards our home or work towards paying it off... .Or even down a bit so I wld immediately lose the house and we wld be homeless... .You know I would take care of your sorry ass. I did... .I cld have left you and gotten full custody of our children when social services threw you out of our home. This is how you repay that and the last 20 years of hard work, encouragement, love, loyalty I have given you. It's not a surprise... .Just a disappointment. I thought you were better than this. 10:12 AM

ff wife: Another thing... .If u don't plan on working other than odd jobs like uber where you can work if u feel like it or not then there is no reason forbyoubtobpay a lawyer... .Sign the paper and get the settlement bcse we don't hv to worry abt an employer googling you 10:16 AM

I'm up for suggestions... .if you are suggesting trying to do that via text... .I'm up for looking over proposed texts.

She has tossed out so much here... .if I don't address what she is "feeling" at the moment or the issue she wants... .that is where the rage goes.


My motivation is to get her to hush and deal with her own stuff (yep... .that's as honest as I can be)

I've got a full plate... .and I am doing the best I can. 

I've tried to connect with feelings.  My last effort... .maybe 1.5 weeks ago... didn't go so well...

More later

FF

My motivation is to get her to hush and deal with her own stuff (yep... .that's as honest as I can be)


Good, that is being honest  :)  but you know we can't make anyone hush up or deal with their own stuff.

IMHO, what she's concerned about isn't something that can be dealt with by texting. This doesn't mean she won't try or send texts.

For me, I think a response that says " I see that you have some big concerns to discuss. This is more than I can discuss by text. I would prefer that we talk about this later. "

For me, this is the kind of discussion I would take to MC. It is so emotionally heated that I don't think I could handle it without assistance. That's just my 2 c .

Personally, I decided that I was not able to handle emotionally laden discussions because the emotions and feelings attached to them were beyond any possible way I knew for resolution.

In these discussions, I think there is a part that is true, and then, there is the part that is the primal wound repeating itself. That's the part I can't get at. If the issue is something I'm upset about, speaking with someone with BPD gets translated into their own interpretation and I can't get to that. A T can help with that.

Some is also fear and loss of control appearing as fact. Certainly, my father's health in his older years had to be terrifying to my mother- it was to me, but there were times she perceived her fears as something he was "doing to her".

Where I saw this with my H was when he interpreted me being rude to his family and what was happening had nothing to do with that. I could not have resolved this by discussing it since the feelings didn't come from me. The kernel of truth though is that I get annoyed with his FOO and he knows that, but I have not been rude to them.

There is both truth and emotions in your wife's communications, and this is a tough one.

Your wife seems scared about your families security.

Hi formflier,


I can see how you would have a full plate. I would find a one liner invalidating. I validate my kids, I've been validating them since I arrived here at bpdfamily, I find that they express how they feel, it helps to connect with my kids, it took time and practice.

I  listen to the tone of their voice, I also listen to the tone of people's voices, family members, friends, co-workers etc... I find that it helps with identifying what a person is feeling. Do they sound worried, sad, frustrated, stressed? Maybe you missed the mark in the past, I think it takes hands on practice.

The lady is exceedingly provocative. While there is probably a basic underlying fear she has that can maybe be addressed, I can see how overall a person could get worn down and lose some will to try and sort her out.

Are things truly that precarious materially, or is she mostly panicking and cutting loose to dump her emotions on you?

Wow! 

Is there a pattern that she follows, FF?

What do you predict?  Does she likely stay in this mode until the move is complete?  Will she calm down after the move is complete, or will it take some more weeks after the move?

I know with my BPD sis, certain things just set her "off" and there is no turning back until the situation is different. Or until she switches targets. You just have to lay low until the storm passes, even if it is months.  I wonder if this is the case for your W as well.

Do you think there is anything you can try to "form an alliance" with her on?  Or somehow get her on "your side?"  Some pwBPD in my life have been able to switch rage gears if another bigger crisis came along... .and they could be coddled for the experience.  For example... .a family member died, then that overshadowed the original rage... .and sis got comfort from everyone and got to play the "victim" role instead.  Sorry this is not a pragmatic example... .as no one wants a death... .but hopefully I was able to convey the concept.  When sis was in this mode... .it only took a severe game changer to knock her to her knees... .I cannot come up with one tho for your situation... .if that even relates to yours and your wife's ways of dealing.

Today was all via text.  The "surge" comment was good news... me testing the waters so to speak.  Surge means ride share fares are up. 

I agree... I much rather discuss in person and have similar experiences being better at validation in person.

Any ideas how to handle the text exchange... .other than ignore it.

I've tried to call or text validation in the past and it seemed to enrage... .

Plus... .we have agreed numerous times... .in and out of counseling to not have conversations like that via text or email.

So... .today... .I ignored it other than my one text to see if she was still worked up.

If she hadn't been worked up my plan was to call and say hey... .see what I could accomplish via phone.

FF

 

So, she worked 1/2 day at school.  Started after the end of her text rant.

I called her after work and she seemed fine.  Talked about her day... .she seemed normal.

When I got home the kiss was a bit tepid... .we are heading out to celebrate a birthday.

No chance for a discussion.

I tried to see if any talk could happen and she kept staring at her phone and playing a video really loud on her phone.

Heading out for birthday with entire family in few minutes.

FF

 

My guess is that she will be cranky until move is complete... .sometime in December when move is all done... house closed on and all that.

Actually... .probably until things settle down in new place.

There is no basis in fact to what she is worried about.

There is food, a house and other goodies. 

There are not as many goodies as she is used to or wants.

She will alternate between demanding we have money... .and then being glad we are "poor".

Most of the claims she made in the text rant are wildly off... .

More later... .will try to discuss... and get on her side later this evening.  If possible.



FF

Sure. I get similar emails from my ex. I find something valid that I can validate.


What do you see in the first three texts that you can validate? What is the root of the issue in the texts?

I see that she's upset because of the messiness and you told her news, it's invalidating because it sounds like you're not listening.

Holidays are approaching as well.  Idk if that adds to stress in your household.  I wonder if you can come up with some ways to simplify to help minimize "anticipated" stress.  Such as... .putting off some traditions/shopping or something this year due to the move.

And then the festive season will be upon us and more dysregulations for the silly season?... .

There is no basis in fact? I wonder if you are able to validate her on this?

Food, a home, and other goodies... .sounds like she has a lot to be thankful for. I wonder if there is another issue? Women often talk in riddles. 

But not as many "goodies" as she wants... .hmmm, sounds like she is trying to fill the BPD bottomless pit. Many people focus on what they dont have rather than what they do and it only increases their suffering. I wonder if there is a way to draw her attention back, perhaps with validation, that help her to appreciate what she actually has.

The text rants may well be wildly off... .but she was so specific. Her rants may need addressing.

Attempting to get her onside before addressing anything is a really good plan. I hope it comes together.  :)

 

What an evening... .glad I was "paying attention to myself"

Goal number 1.  Stay calm.

Movies and B-day celebration went fine.

I get back home.  My parents and d10 are there.  They had been off practicing piano (long story) and didn't attend bday stuff.

We're trying to get kids in the house.  I'm managing d5... .who is throwing a fit.  Fell asleep on way home and was woken up... .so... .fit is kinda normal for tired grump kid.

Anyway... .so I'm dealing with D5 in the hallway.  Couple other kids are there... .and my mom comes barreling down the hallway... .wide eyed shoving clothes in S13s face... demanding to know where a drawer is she can put these...

Huh?  Wtf... .? I'm tired... .I can't put up with any more women than can't control themselves... .so I make my way to the living room.  My Dad starts waving a news article in my face... .demanding to know if I have read it.  Article is about me... .another long story... .not good news.

Note... .nobody said good evening... .hi... .how are you doing... .

I said "I'm not reading news articles... " and walked out of the room.  Went upstairs and stayed by myself for 5-10 minutes.

My mom could be hear grumping at my Dad downstairs... .then they left.

Everyone is now in bed...

Has the world gone crazy? 

FF

Geez... .that sounds like a bit to deal with when you're probably hyper vigilant with regard to your wife. Who was it that said "Life wasn't meant to be easy".  :)

I think you achieved your main goal and so that is a success. The day going well was another success.

Parents invading personal space is an issue in itself. I guess your Mum was trying to help. Wouldn't she know where the clothes go... .or couldn't she sit them on the bed for S13 to put away?

I know the feeling about too many people (esp. female) seemingly dysregulating all at once. It does get too much... .and you are outnumbered.

I'm guessing your Dad thought that was important to raise immediately... .especially if it wasn't good news.

It's one of my real pet peeves when I am not acknowledged with a greeting when meeting or leaving people. It is plain thoughtless and disrespectful. Invalidating to almost anyone who cares.

No the world hasn't gone crazy... .but you would be forgiven for thinking that at times.

Hi FF, I'm sorry you're going through this.   Your wife actually reminds me of how my mother treats my father.  Thank you for posting this. It was helpful to me.

 

Well... .pretty much today she is acting like things are normal... .

I'm on an all day trip.  Planned for a while.  She tried to act surprised this morning that I was leaving. 

After that nothing weird.

Going to start a different post to discuss patterns in my r/s.


Maybe a last question to hang out there for comment.

On the one hand... .I hate ignoring someone... .and I hate being ignored. 

I would like to try and validate something via text the next time one of these text bombs happens. 

However... .I don't want to "feed the beast" and encourage more text bombing.

Any idea on how I can tell the difference?  There was a lot of info in this text bomb... .my plan is to try and pick something less controversial and stick to validating that.

Such as messy might be easier to validate than I'm a lazy a$$. 

I can actually agree that things were messier than normal... .no argument there.  We had just loaded up several things from the house and moved them to our new location.  So... .of course things will be messy and not like they were. 

Anyway... .that's where my heart and head is now.  `

Any comments on sticking with text validation... .or calling her and trying to do it via voice? 

FF

How about: We have a lot of things on our plate right now, a lot of change approaching... .some uncertainty.  There is so much that is stressful.

 

So... .finally got to a point where we talked and actually communicated some today. 

Tried to validate frustration and a lot on our plates... .I think I had some success.

The issue of Monday's texts came up... .and she said "Hold on... .if you are going to jump all over me about that... skip it... .it needed to be said... "

She followed that up by saying "I said everything to you in love... .you should be glad that someone cares enough about you to say those things... ."     


Luckily... .I stayed calm.  "I'm not going to debate my medical conditions with you.   I'm not going to participate in harmful communications"  I left the room.

Ugg... .I hate this twisted stuff... .

FF

When you get a text bomb like that she's at least half-way to full-on dysregulated.

Your odds of talking somebody down from dysregulation by using validation are terrible. Yes, it does happen on very rare occasions, but very seldom.

And I don't think that validation by text works very well. If she wants to feel invalidated and take it out on you, she's going to find a way. You can't say anything (or say nothing) and prevent this. I do believe that it is easier for her to twist your words around via text, and if she can't do that, she can certainly find a way to invent horrible motivations for your actions (or inactions) and go off in another direction blaming you.

Honestly, I'd recommend enforcing boundaries around not subjecting yourself to verbal (or text message) abuse, and saving your validation for times when you aren't being attacked. Those text messages are VERY abusive. Don't reward that abuse with validation.

Man, if this helps you at all, this is my conversation with my wife today via text. We have both been sick and she found a way to go off yesterday. I got out. Here's today;s texts after I thought  I let it all die: 

ME: GOod morning, feel any better today? My stomach is still messed up.

WIfe: my stomach is very messed up. Tired and drained

ME: sorry did you try edible? :)

Wife: very littleof an edge.

ME: didn't help me either

Me: hey, jeremy text and wants us to meet up. told him we wanted to see baby.

Wife: GO then!

5 MINUTES LATER

Wife: go this weekend. maybe I can be comfortable in my own house and have some space. I have no interest in making plans with you. I dont' ever want to be around anyone, remember?lol

Wife: I have very little respect for you as  a husband now and I cant let it go. YOu have shown me time and time the real you especially in front of others and Im disgusted by you period.

Wife: I have never felt so unsafe and betrayed  as I do with you... .IM just over it!@

Wife: I'm sick of you making me look like ___! I'm glad you never stopped though because it just shows who you truly are not all your fluff. I don't know you but what I do, I don't like anymore.

Wife: you have made my life a living hell with your kids there again. every time they stay I have major issues with how you treat me in front of them and how how dare you disrespect me in front of your kids time and time again. You can kissmy ass and that's how I truly feel. Bye

WIfe: here we go again. F**k you! I want out of this marriage. I have no respect for you. You have never shown me none.

Wife; you have made me such an unhappy, miserable person. you don't deserve a F*ck toy from me. I'm so serious . I'm so done with you low life insults and how ___ty you  treat me.

Wife:You are not worth one change... no thank you!IM sure not anywhere I should be but you don't help with that and I don't even want to give you that becasuse you have put me through living hell.

Wife: if I had kidsd living in our house and disrespected you like that in front of them making you look like you are mean and dont want them there and every issue is your fault instead of actually being a responsible parent and taking responsibility you wouldn't like it. I don;t like it on Fing bit and have taken the f-ing abuse too long. I'm done.

Wife: I'm done!

WIfe: I know longer love you... .I actually hate you very much!

Wife: I don't want you or this marriage

ONE HOUR LATER

Wife: how dare you! Just thinking about it makes my blood boil. I don't even have to talk to those kids if I dont 'want to. Luke is annoying as sh*T but what do I do and have always done? taken them in and treated them like my own. NOt any more! f**K that!

Wife:You don't deserve ___ from me. besides not cheating(even though you flirt) and keep a job, you have been a horrible husband!

This breaks my heart. This was over the course of today. I didn't respond to any negative, as you can see.  THis is so far from truth! Actually, this is SO SO SO mild compared to usual! 

Tell me what you think!

Uh oh!  I hope this isn't "heard" as an accusation. 

Dude... .

Sigh... .

I often think of "fighting back" by just texting "inappropriate text" or "your text is abusive"... .been a long time since I have done that.  It never worked... .

Sure is tempting though.

Make's me wonder what the internal monologue is like... .because you can see that she is having some sort of "conversation" with someone... or something... .in her head.

FF

This is from our archives, with credit to Tammy, a former moderator.


Hi FF,

a couple of thoughts.   my partner intensely dislikes clutter and mess.   I think perhaps it comes from the fact that her internal life often feels out of control, and so she likes to impose control on her physical world.   leaving something on the counter top can be upsetting to her.

I think Grey Kitty had great points.   From my perspective those texts are abusive.   For me,  I needed to take a very deep look at myself as to why I was willing to give any credence to the verbal garbage that came my way.   Why was I more concerned with protecting the peace or trying to negotiate a settlement with her, than I was with taking care of myself and saying to my partner,  "hey this is unacceptable, you can convey your feeling to me and here is how I need this to go in the future, let me know when you can work with that."   

I finally go to the point of setting limits around verbal abuse.   It was difficult and painful for both of us.   It created a firestorm of emotion in both of us.   and it took a while to work through.  for me, and in my situation my relationship got to a breaking point, and I needed to take the chance/risk of pushing this issue.   I felt like if I didn't I was going to be like the clip above, with my self esteem eroded away.

'ducks

My guess is... .that I am a bit more than halfway there.

I didn't respond to the texts.  I did my one little text to test the waters... .then ignored.

I'm interested in how you "pushed" the issue.  I definitely feel like "pushing" or "fighting back"... .but want it to be productive.

"Your texts are abusive... .I will be ignoring you the rest of the day" ... .I think would be seen as a challenge.

Yet it seems wrong to not address behavior that rises to this level.

Anyway... .please keep ideas coming.

It's interesting... .I now tell people routinely that boundaries will be their most effective tool and friend.  So... I'm good with that... .and I'm fine with her not liking the boundaries... .whatever. 

Goal is to set appropriate ones... .and be consistent.

FF

Correct, stating it that way is a challenge, and I'd add that it doesn't have the desired result you want either. And it also smacks of "punishment".

I think this would be better:


Although if she has never acknowledged that she is behaving abusively toward you before, it isn't likely to be received well either.

Backing up... .the reason to enforce a boundary like that is to protect yourself from experiencing the abusive crap. Not to punish her, and not to change her behavior.

Saying you will ignore the texts doesn't do that.

Turning off your phone works. (at least until you turn it back on) Blocking her number on your phone works.

There are clearly logistical issues with doing either, given that you are co-managing a household full of kids and especially while moving. I'd understand if you aren't willing/able to do that, at least now.

Does she speak that way to you in person, or speak of you (for example to your children) that way in front of you? The boundary of leaving an abusive face to face conversation is much cleaner and easier in that sense.

Hi FF

I think we're struggling with the same issue.

Today I got in another circular argument on the phone with my pwBPD that he denied was a circular argument. Then when I was coming home from my run I saw he messaged  me about an old argument from Saturday. I had asked him if he had a private life outside our r/s and he got offended. Then he said he realized he was responding to Saturday's craziness when I called him on the phone. I have a policy now that I call my pwBPD as soon as I see a message come in and ask him what his last message  was.

I usually mute his conversations and I muted them on Facebook tonight. He says he texts me because I interrupt him on the phone.

I decided tonight that I've had enough of his circular arguments and if he wants to talk to me he can call me.

I appreciate seeing your struggle. I'm relieved to know I'm not the only one with this problem .

Yes she attempts to speak that way in person... .and with the move that kind of thing has been happening more.

I have walked away from her more in the last... .say... .month or so than I have in the 6 months combined before that.

So, my guess is that with her building frustration that I won't stand and "take it" and listen to her crap... .that she has started texting again. 

So, I'm seeing 3-4 "text bombs" in last month... .and maybe same amount in last 6 months.  Just an educated guess... .

She has acknowledged in the past that things like this are abusive, she won't do them... .it was bad... .etc etc.  However... .a bit of history re-writing and next thing you know... .

GK,

Hey... .I'll credit one of your phrases for helping me walk away the other day.  She made some mention of the texts being sent to me "out of love" and that I should be glad I had someone to say those things to me... .that I needed to hear (or some such nonsense... .)

Well... .a big part of me wanted to ask her to "help me understand" where the love was in those texts... .

A thought then went through my head... ."nothing good will come of this... . "  |iiii

And I went back upstairs to do something else.

FF

 

So... tried on a new phrase this morning.

Things were going great.  Then she couldn't find her boots.

I guess they were in a car on the trip.

She accused me of loosing them because they were hers... and if they were min... .I would have not have lost them... (nasty snarling tone as she spoke to me about this

So... .I said... "your abusive allegations of my malevolent intent are ridiculous and I will not be listening to them" and I walked away

She ranted about "no they are not... ." as I left the room... .yammered on about some other stuff I couldn't make out.

Hmm... .well.  I've said it...

We'll see.

FF

 

Do you think saying the same phrase over and over... .each time there is an incident is better... .or to have several phrases that are close in meaning... and make sure to switch them up so she doesn't get used to hearing the same thing.

Well... .I really didn't think through that last phrase... it just kinda came out.

I went back downstairs 10 minutes or so later and she was "sing songy" happy.  Literally skipping around.  She was getting ready for work.  I got a couple things out of the car that she would be driving to work.  When she got in she was very obvious about offering me her cheek to give her a peck.

She drives away... .calls a few minutes later and asks me to bring out her purse.

I brought it out with a smile... .said something about personalized purse delivery service and leaned in for some lovin... .

Again... .big exaggerated turn and offering of the cheek.

I'm sure there is a message in that... .that I won't figure out. 

FF

To add my 2 cents.  I think if you just responded, "We agreed in therapy to not have these types of conversations via text, so I will not be responding.  We can talk about this in person later if you want."  As for the abusive side of things, I would not tolerate it personally, but my marriage isn't doing the greatest, so I feel very poor equipped to give marriage advice.

Do you think that maybe you become a victim of your core need to perform acts of services when in situations specifically like these "rough morning" ones?

I'm thinking that being the smiling custodian of her purse may lead directly to the accusation that you have not been tending properly to her boots.

Could you divide up morning responsibilities with your wife? You = get kids ready; Her = get herself ready.

I get that GreyKitty "no good can come of it" feeling when reading about tense morning interactions in your household. As if--no surprise--that is the time when your wife's fears and frustrations reach their daily zenith.

(Added, to concur with Fian and others: I hope you can protect yourself from this morning abuse. It sounds like too much, at least to me.)

You are most welcome.

Along those lines... .when it comes to abuse and boundaries around them... .Let me suggest a general principle here:

Don't try to convince her that abusing you is the wrong thing to do. (what the comment unsaid was directed toward) This is invalidating and ineffective.

Instead convince her that you won't accept abusive behavior from her. Preferably through actions that prevent you from being abused.

Seriously... .your wife KNOWS that abusive behavior isn't kind, loving, or appropriate. It isn't her ignorance that drives her to do that. Thus giving her the knowledge won't help--it just adds something else for her to feel bad/guilty about, which she cannot cope with, and will eventually turn into the next blowup aimed at you instead.

... .

It really can make a world of difference, or at least make room for that kind of change. Once I was personally rock solid in refusing to accept abuse, things started to change for the better. First *I* started feeling and doing much better when I was out from under it. And after I took my wife's favorite unhealthy coping mechanism away from her (abusing me), she had to find others. And she did pick ones that were better. It took a couple years, but eventually she went through something herself and stopped TRYING to behave abusively toward me. It didn't come from me at all--she found it herself.

 

I had hoped that she had found better coping during our relative "good period" over the months leading up to this.

Right now I'm trying to organize my thoughts around communicating that I won't accept abuse... .I like the point about not arguing if she is being abusive.

I also like the return text that states the facts:  "We agreed in therapy to not have these types of discussions via text"... .

And then no more response.

FF

Better to just state that you will not participate in that kind of discussion by text.

Pointing out that she agreed to it is just adding fuel to the fire. Either she doesn't remember/believe and thinks you are being manipulative/lying, and takes it out on you... .or she does remember, and feels bad/guilty, and being dysregulated still takes it out on you.

I see the point... .plus... our history with "agreements" is not that good.

So... the message that I want to hammer away at (so to speak) is that I will not be doing "that" anymore.

That being participating in abusive conversations.

FF

Isn't there already one "hammer" in the family?  :)

Maybe you could float like a butterfly or be flexibly in the moment like a fluid basketball player? (For your situation, maybe spontaneous versions of the Grey Kitty statements that are along the lines of "I need to leave this conversation before I say something I regret."

Dude, when did you get this thing about understatements?  lol

hehe... .I don't really "get it"... but at least I am saying and acknowledging it.

I do kinda look around and wonder how things turn out "this good" with two people doing their own thing and really not coordinating much.

FF

Hi FF,

It took me a long time to get there but I have a zero tolerance policy around abuse.  and DUH, why wouldn't I.   for me I needed to look at why it took  ME so long to get to the point of holding my boundaries.   Abuse is abuse is abuse.   I don't need to explain why I won't receive it.   I don't need to negotiate an end to the abuse.  I don't need to do anything except not be a recipient.   

I really enjoyed what Grey Kitty has said throughout this thread.   Very nicely put.   And summed up my experience also.


:thought:   

Oh yeah exactly this.   Trying to convince my partner of anything is counter productive.   She just defends her position more.   My boundary is about me so it comes with a lot of I statements.   One of the better pieces of advice I got was to pay close attention to my use of "I" "You" and "We", that those three words are very telling about the health of a relationship.  My boundary comes with a lot of I statements.   If she rages she rages, since she is already raging... .this is kind of a mixed bag.   I know you are a big fan of actual examples so things I have said include.

"I will not have this conversation this way."

"I will not discuss this like this."

"I am turning off the phone, I will check back in at X."

and in response to the classic "it needed to be said" line

"what would work better for me is if we could communicate in a more productive way" and then exit stage left.

I don't view this as fighting back.   I view it more as defending my emotional space.   I should also make the point of saying I don't read abusive texts.  Delete Delete Delete.   and I will tell her so if asked.  Did you read my texts?  No, there was nothing helpful for me in those texts I deleted them unread.


This has also been my experience.   It was up to me to be personally rock solid in refusing to accept abuse, and not wait for her to agree to it.    If she did become abusive it was up to me to protect my emotional self by becoming un-enmeshed.  Sometimes that meant leaving physically, sometimes that meant doing other things to protect myself emotionally.

'ducks

When conversations or things turn as bad as everyone has posted and I am fumbling with the tools or which tool to use... .I validate MYSELF by calling her out.

Sometimes I feel calling her out on her abuse quite literally as a reality check (I know, mine, but shared) and then a period of separation almost always gets things back on track... .but mine is very committed to the relationship. And sometimes I like to live dangerously. 

I was wondering with FF's posts with the wife tearing the relationship to shreds where is the line between respecting her wishes (her point of view, her requests, her desire toward dissolution of the relationship) or simply ignoring her (invalidating?) or indeed telling her that she is abusive?... .which may be perceived as invalidating anyway.

The twisting or the rewriting of history is very difficult for me to cope with as well... .even when my dBPDgf rewrites her OWN recent history... .HER truth... .it just pulls the rug out.

 

I try to offer her a chance to share her wishes.  If she does so in a respectful... .healthy way... .I go out of my way to attempt to meet the request.

When she is grumpy... .I try to think about what I would do in this situation if she were not involved.

So... .what I don't want to do is say "wife is yelling at me... .so I will sit on couch and do no housework"

I do housework because I live in the house... .and want to set a good example for my kids.  I don't start or stop that because of dysregulation or accusations. 

However... .if she asks nicely... .it almost always gets done.

FF

Mine definitely rewrites her OWN history and tells me how twisted I am. lol.