BPDFamily.com

  everyone

Please only post on my thread if you can support my decision to stay in my relationship.

I've been experiencing a lot of conflict with both my father and my partner recently, in fact I've been starting to notice similarities between what my father says and what my partner says. Its disturbing.

What I need help with is realistic expectations. In the workshop on the do's and don'ts of a BPD relationship it talks about realistic expectations. One of the things it says is not hope that changing your behavior will heal someone else, I think. What about changing my behavior to stop making things worse?

My partner and I have been experiencing a lot of conflict lately and I think that's because I've been weak and out of balance. My grandmother is dying, my daughter got in trouble, and probably did all kind of don'ts on the list.

So my question is that I assume that trying to follow the do's and don'ts is not the same thing as hoping by changing my behavior I will heal my partner, correct? I don't think anything I do will heal my partner however I do think I have a direct impact on how much or how little conflict we experience.

(For those who said I experienced a lot of triangulation in my relationship with my partner, I think you are right. However I'm not going to take all the  responsibility for creating it as my partner actively wants to be involved in all aspects of my life and has wanted to be from the beginning. He is the one wanting to talk to my child's father, my father, my brother, etc.)

If constancy is an issue for pwBPD, then maybe you should strive to be more constant?

That's not the problem. The problem is my pwBPD wants to tell me what to do and I don't want to do what he says.

Your partner feels like he can tell you what to do because you've let him get way too involved in your family relationships that should be none of his business. Even though he wanted to, you didn't have to let him. People with BPD have very poor boundaries (both boundaries for themselves and respect for your boundaries). If you want to stay in the relationship, you need to have an extra-strong sense of your own boundaries.

I had this struggle with my pwBPD, where she would beg me to help her out with a lot of problems that she really should have handled on her own. I would do my best to help her, and then suddenly I would say something she didn't like or give advice she didn't want to follow, and she'd rage at me for trying to control her. You can't have it both ways, let him get this involved and then get upset with him when you don't like what he's saying.

With a non, you could probably ask for his advice when you wanted it and then say "thanks for your advice but he's my father and I feel like I should do X instead." But that's probably too fuzzy for a pwBPD to understand, and might set off a rage. It's better to have very clear, consistent boundaries that your family relationships are your business and not his.

Hi unicorn,

The goal of changing your behavior to not make things worse is based on learning about the disorder and how to handle situations effectively. How you react to a situation has the potential of reducing conflict. There are many times when we can exacerbate a situation by the way we react. We have the ability to change our behavior and make positive changes through the use of communication tools and validation techniques.

Understanding your role in the relationship is imperative. As compared to a partner who suffers from BPD, we are forced into the role of being the emotionally stable partner. While you cannot change your partners behavior or thoughts, you can change your behavior and thoughts. The change within  ourselves can affect our relationship in a positive manner.

It is up to you to instill boundaries and decide what things you will and will not tolerate.

Hi this again, that's not exactly it either. Yesterday my pwBPD sent me a long email about how he felt being in a relationship with me allowed him to have a family . He thinks my family is his family. He wants to marry me.

The conflict isn't about my father.

The conflict is about his moods, they are too much for me, if I had his moods I would medicate them.

In the beginning of the relationship he saw himself as repairing the relationship with my family. Problem was it was never broken in the first place.

My pwBPD has inserted himself into my relationship with my daughter, father, mother, brother, child's father, my church, my community.

Thank you eagles, this is still about boundaries. There's been a lot of hung up phone calls, insults in text, I've just been too weak to deal with them lately.

I guess I will once again need to reread the lesson on boundaries.

I just can't seem to get it.

Its kind of discouraging.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, that's what I was looking for.

What I'm saying is that by allowing him to insert himself into your relationships that much, you're opening yourself up for a whole bunch of problems. You mentioned that he wants to tell you what to do and you don't want to do what he says. That seems to be causing conflict between you two and emotional strain on you. You could reduce the conflict and strain by having stronger boundaries so that he realizes he doesn't have the right to tell you what to do.

His unstable moods will also probably end up damaging your relationships with all of these people. I know I regret letting my partner into my life so much when she was not emotionally reliable. If he's purporting to deal with these people on your behalf, but he is an unstable and emotionally abusive guy, it's only a matter of time before he says something inappropriate or abusive to them. Since he's claiming to speak to them for you and with your blessing, that will hurt their relationship with you.

Even if you were married, it would be risky to let a pwBPD get as involved in your relationships as he is. It's one thing for him to have his own relationships with your family, but he shouldn't be this involved with yours. And you'd still want boundaries to protect your own relationships and your family (especially your daughter) from his instability.

Hi this again, that's not really the problem either. The problem I'm experiencing with him today is that his moods are causing me problems so I asked him to go on a mood stabilizer. We'll see what happens.

I appreciate everything you've said and I'll think about it. For what's it worth my friends and family like him and he does have his own relationship with my family.

I think the thing about telling me what to do is he wants to tell me how to resolve the conflict within our relationship and I want to follow the BPD family model.

I'm going to reread the lesson on boundaries yet again. I am shocked boundaries are this much of a problem for me however as I'm starting to do work on my historical relationship with my parents I'm beginning to see why. I'm now splitting my time between two boards: coping and staying as I have two sets of problem people in my life: parents and partners.

Thank you so much for your input. I'm going to read the boundaries lesson again and see if I can post about the current issues.

It is impossible to find problem resolution if you cannot clearly define the problem

Thank you C. Stein, I will try to articulate it better.

The problem is there is conflict: arguing, name calling, hung up phone calls, blaming, it all started yesterday because my partner sent me this long email yesterday talking about how much he enjoyed being a part of a family with me and I couldn't respond to it because he's still not divorced yet.

I told my partner I found him emotionally overstimulating and I couldn't take it and I needed there to be less highs and lows and more emotions in the middle.

There was a lot of threats to leave me yesterday too.

I've had the same problem when he tells me he misses me and I can't respond in kind because I resent him. I've talked to my former therapist about that.

Once again I'm experiencing conflict with my FOO as well as my family I created so he's not the only problem in my life.

We're still in a LDR.

I hope that made some sense.

I appreciate people only posting if they can support my decision to stay. I know that some people think I'm unhealthy and my relationship is unhealthy and I appreciate them staying out of this. Healthy or not, I'm still in it so I need help.

Ok I see what you mean about the expectations now. Thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry we've had such trouble understanding each other.

If he refused to start a mood stabilizer or it didn't work, can you think of some other ways you could avoid feeling emotionally overwhelmed? Maybe mindfulness to notice sooner when you're getting triggered, delete the email as soon as you start feeling that way, soothe or distract yourself.

You seem to be trying to talk with him about things like boundaries, triggering you, etc. Talking about things like that is not going to get you anywhere with a pwBPD (especially not an untreated or poorly controlled BPD). You have to take on the responsibility yourself to deal with your triggers and enforce your boundaries.

BPD is highs, lows, and threats to leave. You can't change that about him. The tools here are to learn how to deal with the highs and lows, so that they don't affect your own emotional health and there is less conflict in your relationship.

It's not our job to tell you what to do in your relationship either, but there are certain tools and skills that everyone here needs to develop if we want to stay--to reduce conflict and protect our own health. That's what we're trying to help you with.

You do not have to deal with this behavior if you do not want to. You have the options to tell your pwBPD, that you do not tolerate this type of behavior and you can learn to not become affected. Although his emotional instability is unpleasant, it really should have no affect on the way you think or behave. You can't control his emotional stability, even with the request of him taking a mood stabilizer. It is his decision whether or not to take the medication. You cannot control his emotions or the way he behaves, you can only balance your own emotions.

If you are experiencing similar conflict with your FOO, it is best to separate that from the current conflict with your pwBPD.  

He says his doctors didn't seem to think he needed one but he's going to ask again.

That's really difficult that I can't read an email where he tells me he enjoys being a part of a family with me and how he finds it fulfilling .


He's had emdr for his ptsd and talk therapy but no dbt. He thinks he no longer has BPD.

That's a lot of responsibility for a person who already has a lot of conflict in their life (me).


Thank you! It is odd  that I'm experiencing him as being very symptomatic and he denies he has BPD at all now. I really appreciate what you are saying here. That is very wise and very clear.


Thank you so much, I'm ready to learn.

Thank you, I tried to set a boundary with him where I would not engage with him in text especially after he hung up on me and I let that all go last week.

Yes I am experiencing conflict with my father who is also a difficult person.

It is hard for me to believe things are so out of control. We did talk today and I did tell him we needed to start over this month.

As both Eagles and thisagain have mentioned, the definition of BPD involves emotional instability. To stay in this relationship, you'll need to accept that and figure out how to strengthen yourself to deal with it. Easy to say, I know.  

Telling him a behavior is unacceptable is fine. Telling him his moods are unacceptable is terribly invalidating. I'm sure most pwBPD, if they had a choice, would prefer not to be hijacked by extreme moods. You might as well be telling him that he should be left handed instead of right handed.

Thank you cat familiar, my partner denies he's emotional unstable, he says he doesn't feel emotionally unstable,  but is willing to tell his doctor his partner experiences him as emotionally unstable. My partner also denies that he needs to be validated. I know that when I was confronted with the need to validate him by the staying board I had to move over to the undecided board because I was so unwilling to validate him. I worked through all the undecided lessons and decided to stay so I'm back, with a partner who still denies he needs to be validated, in fact sees it as a sign of weakness, and yet the staying board is telling me I need to validate him. Its very confusing.

It is a lot of responsibility and like Cat Familiar said, it's easier said than done. You're off to a good start though by coming here!

I think it's pretty common in pwBPD to write their symptoms off as PTSD instead. It lets them stay in the poor-me, I'm-a-victim mindset where they're most comfortable. At any rate, you know that he's shown unstable and dysregulated emotions, and the tools here are designed to help you respond to that. Since we're focusing on building up your ability to deal with his behaviors, it doesn't really matter whether he recognizes the behavior as a problem or as BPD.

Re: him denying that he needs to be validated, I wouldn't believe him. He doesn't seem to have much insight into his emotional processes or moods. However, I think your first step should be boundaries to protect yourself from abuse and get yourself to a less triggered, more secure place. You need to build yourself up before you can start building him up.

Thank you, I appreciate that, that's helpful.


I appreciate that. Its hard to validate someone who doesn't want to validated. I'll read on boundaries again and post again. Thank you.

Validation is a communication technique.  Successful validation is done in such a manner that the person being validated is not even aware of the technique being employed.  The person being validated is only aware of being heard/understood/accepted/soothed/comforted.  So, validation as a technique does not need to be discussed, it needs to be learnt and employed.

And this technique works wonders with non-BPD individuals too.   My teens especially respond amazingly well when I/we use it.

I think that after a while it becomes natural to communicate and relate to everyone this way.

Thank you pall, I did not discuss it with the pwBPD however he made it quite clear he didn't need validation as he does read stuff about BPD. Nevertheless I will make it a point to learn this technique and incorporate it into my communication. As I too have a teen I guess it could help me with her as well.

 

Unicorn2014,

I'm glad you are on the staying board... .I think it's great you desire to learn skills that will help you have a successful long term relationship with a pwBPD.

I've scanned the post... .and a few times you mentioned that some of the things "didn't address the problem".

I agree... they didn't... but I think those posters were trying to make a point about "mindset" or the way you approach a problem.

I come here and post my issues and I'm generally looking for feedback on "exactly" how to respond better to a text, argument... .whatever.  Those are  "small picture" items... .or the military guy in me would say it's a "tactical" discussion.  Addressing one specific item.

I would challenge to to also start thinking about "mindset"... ."big picture"... .or (yep... here comes that military guy again) "strategy".  If you can change your mindset about how you approach "staying"... .then many problems will start "fixing themselves" because of the way you think about them.

For instance:  Boundaries can be discussed on a tactical level... ."how to implement a particular boundary".    More importantly... .I hope you would consider boundaries as a mindset.  Where you think about defining what is yours and what is somebody elses... .and making decisions based on what you control... .and avoiding trying to control things that aren't yours... .and avoiding letting other people control things that are yours.

There is no right or wrong to this.  But as a general statement a person that has a strong sense of self and is unapologetic about their boundaries will have a better chance at long term staying success.

FF

Thank you form flier, I appreciate that, I learn a lot from reading your posts, some I can't comment on because I have no experience to offer but I always find them insightful.

I think one of the biggest things I'm struggling with right now is validation. I read how not to be invalidating and I know there's a part of me that enjoys being invalidating as a way of getting the pwBPD back for all the pain he's caused me. I know that's not a healthy outlook.

Things are relatively if not totally calm with the pwBPD right now. My daughter is having a health and disciplinary crisis and he is really being supportive. I don't even remember what the last fight was about.

 

That's something we have in common... .we struggle with validation

In fact... .I posted today over here looking for feedback...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=285354.0.


I was raised in a family that praised people for their accomplishments.  While I don't think we invalidated each others emotions... .we definitely didn't validate them... .or seek to understand how others we're feeling.

So... .the "art of validation"... .is like a foreign language to me.  I feel clumsy using it... .exhausted trying to figure it out.

I am getting better at it... .but it will be a long effort for it to be "second nature".

FF

This comes down to modifying OUR personality to help them to modify theirs. Changing personalities is a slow and evolving process, there are no instant fixes. At first we "graft" on new traits, which may look cumbersome and obvious at first but eventually with growth it blends into a new us, and all these awkward changes become part of a new uniform whole.

Formflier, I will read your link a little bit later, thank you for sharing it. I definitely can relate to not being raised to value feelings, in fact I think I was raised to make fun of them, at least by my father. I think my  mother may be a little bit more sensitive.

I do remember now why my partner and I got in such a big fight on Saturday. He sent me this email telling him how fulfilling he found it to be a part of family with me and I resented him for starting a relationship with me before he was divorced. Its like when he used to tell me he missed me and I wouldn't know what to say and I had to talk to my former therapist about it. That is why I have such a barrier to validation. I don't feel like validating him for his feelings. What about my feelings? At any rate now I know why we fought on Saturday, I had blocked it out because I was dealing with other problems related to my daughter.

I remember another behavior he does that I don't like it, he'd send a positive  email or a text and then say he shouldn't have sent that. I get mad when he does that. I think he feels vulnerable when he shares positive emotion and when I don't reciprocate he feels stupid and then wants to take it back. It can get tedious.

He and I have had to postpone our meetings to go over his escrow papers and divorce decree, which he found, because I've had numerous problems pop up with my daughter plus he was under a work deadline that I wanted him to meet. We would have gone over them today but my daughter is home from school because of an ailment so we had to postpone that.

I do not know if seeing his escrow papers/divorce decree is going to change how I feel. I'm mad at him for starting a relationship with me in the first place when he was married. I don't care that he didn't see himself as married, was sleeping on the couch, was cooking in the backyard, wasn't having a conjugal relationship with his wife. So that resentment is what is eating away at me and getting in the way of me validating him. I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive him.

So perhaps I need to write a different thread as this doesn't seem to be about realistic expectations.

Thank you both of you for this. I know what is going on with me now. I remember why we got in such a big fight on Saturday and I know what I am struggling with. I have a big resentment against my pwBPD for starting a relationship with me while he was still married. I don't know if I can ever forgive him. That's what's getting in the way of me validating him. I don't know if him showing me his escrow papers and divorce decree is going to change that. So that's kind of my problem.

I also appreciate people only posting if they can support me in staying as despite the problems my relationship with my pwBPD is stable and supportive and I am not in a place where I could go through the grieving process of loss right now.

Something you might consider here.  It takes two people to be in a relationship.  Are you resenting him or are you really resenting yourself?

C. Stein, when I asked him if he was married he answered in such a way that led me to believe he wasn't. In other words he didn't say yes, he said "would you let your man talk to another woman this way even if there was nothing going on?" At the time I didn't know that meant he was married. I didn't find out until later when his wife introduced herself to me under his name in a text message. So why would I resent myself for something I had no control over? I chose to stay in the relationship after I found out he was married because (I thought) I was in love with him. Now I know that you can not be in love with someone just from loving something they've created and texting them and talking to them on the phone, but that's water under the bridge. (He did ask his wife to move out the next day and she did.)

I understand.  Thanks for the clarification.

It's possible that his behavior is due to extreme guilt and shame he is feeling about lying about his divorce.  He saw a brass ring, he reached out to you.  In his desperation to be happy with you, he lied... .or rather fudged some facts... .because the intention to divorce was a fact... .but the timing of his narrative regarding the divorce was not.

I am a firm believer that forgiveness cannot occur with an apology.  Forgiveness is a result of restitution, it is an automatic reaction to restitution.  Please allow me to clarify:  A wrongs B.  B is hurt.  B communicates that hurt to A.  A is remorseful, apologetic and promises never to do it again.  B believes that he/she has forgiven A because A has shown remorse and shame and has understood that the act was hurtful.

To me, this is not forgiveness.  I think forgiveness is a natural process when and if... .after the remorse and the shame and the guilt and the apology... .B performs actions that make up for the initial transgression.

So Please allow me to make the following observations:

1)  I sense that regardless of how you feel right this moment, you come across more comfortable on the Staying Board than the Undecided Board.  This alone is revealing, in that... .the kernal of forgiveness has already taken root somewhere in your spirit.  It may be a sapling so small that you are not totally aware of it... .it has not yet resulted the fruit of fulfillment and joy.  It is still a sapling.  If this kernal had not taken root, it is possible that you could be on the Leaving Board... .your resentment is justified, but it is not a raging fire that has sent you to the Leaving Board.  That fact alone is the hope that needs to be worked on.

2) His actions are being positive and are enriching your life in many ways (his interest in your daughter's welfare for example, reflects his intention to honor your status as a mother... .and his general acceptance of your relationships with your family).  This is why perhaps the kernal of forgiveness has already taken root in your spirit.

3)  When he says or writes something positive, he wants to take it back... .his behavior and thought process seems to me as though he is ashamed and sorry and guilt-ridden and expects punishing behavior from you.  Perhaps he has experienced this punitive behavior for instance when he calls you to tell you that he is thinking of you in an intimate way, a loving response to this, regardless of being tired would be,  "O, that is so sweet... .I would love to be pictured that way because in reality today I have had a bad day dealing with the school etc... .so your thinking of me this way is so joyful.  Thanks... .you made me day.  I am very exhausted and will talk to you tomorrow... .etc."  Instead, he expects and perhaps gets verbal lashing... .because of your resentment.

4)  If the above hypotheses is somewhat correct (and you will intuitively know whether or not it is), then the line to follow is not learning validations skills that you can use to him and for him.  Rather learning self healing and validation skills to be used for yourself and to yourself fundamentally.

As your own personal healing grows, the rest will follow automatically. 

So the narrative needs to be changed to:  How can I get over my resentment, my feelings of guilt and shame of being in love with a married man (facts are not always in direct correlation to feelings... .it does not matter that you are not the one who originally fudged the truth... .the guilt and shame of being with a "married" man is symptomatic of a moral person.  If you did not have this guilt and shame... .even though you did not do anything wrong, you would be an amoral person... .and I do not get this sense at all.).

Your sense of justice and fairness is outraged. This fairness and justice is what will heal the relationship.  When you are restored internally, you will be able to restore the issues outside of yourself.

Seek self-forgiveness first.  Like I said, even though you did not fudge the truth, the shame and guilt could be damaging you because your feelings may not be line with the facts in this area.  And herein comes the resentment... .it is shame and guilt resulting in anger.  Resentment is self-directed anger.  (I know this because my sister has suffered from it for decades with her husband... .and only now they are in counseling and she is owning her own responsibility... .she build him up waaaaaay beyond he should have been... .she did not address his demeaning words to him immediately and swiftly... .rather to buy peace she accepted them as truth... .etc.)

Deliberately create good sensations and good memories for yourself... .start small with a deliberate pursuit of minor pleasures... .favorite cup of tea, favorite exercise, favorite book, favorite song... .be deliberate.  Each deliberate act of seeking small pleasures for yourself seems insignificant  in itself until each droplet of water becomes a powerful deluge.

He has not cheated on you... .He fudged the facts.  He did not fudge the truth.  There is a powerful difference here.

My intuition tells me that with careful pruning and careful watering and careful nurturing your relationship with him and his with you has all the essential elements that can blossom into a powerful strong joyous bond.

Palla, you are right, your reply made me cry. I am dealing with anxiety, I'm seeing a social worker weekly for it. It has drastically increased since January.

( In August I had terminated therapy when my therapist intern left the agency, with her approval. In September when I found out my partners divorce hadnt been filed I elected to see a social worker. )

She sent me home with a pleasurable activities sheet, which I learned about in DBT. I'm currently enrolled in DBT . You are correct about the shame, the guilt would be from divorcing my husband 10 years ago .

(He is still abusing substances today.)

you are correct , I'm a devout Christian. I'm also in recovery as an adult child and my former sponsor was working with me on self forgiveness.

(She terminated the relationship because she couldn't handle my deep issues with my partner as well as strongly disagreeing with parenting decisions I made, because of her own adolescence. She has no children and has never been married.)

He suspects your level of forgiveness, and feels vulnerable to further punitive actions. So quickly withdraws this vulnerability in times of sensitivity

You don't feel the restitution is sufficiently complete to move past it either.

As pallavirajsinghani states this is a time of transition, almost a grieving of innocence, and it will take time to consolidate and move on.

In the meantime you are both a little fragile.

Does change make you feel vulnerable and a times want to stubbornly hang onto ideals out of principle?  Momentum of thinking patterns varies within individuals , and can't always be turned on a dime.

Wave rider, I think part of the problem is his wife doesn't want to let go of him even though he's already started talking to his parents about me and my daughter.

I know I have a resentment against him and I know I need to let go of it and move on. I have been successfully able to uphold my boundary of keeping the relationship long distance until the divorce is filed which I want to talk about on another thread related to boundaries.

I know there is a part of me that wants to punish him for lying to me, not about the divorce, because I don't think he lied about that, but about the marriage. I'm still mad at him for that because it makes me look stupid. I know that's a very primitive reaction but that's what I'm struggling with. I didn't learn forgiveness in my FOO either .

... .like I said, forgiveness is a process.  It begins fundamentally with forgiveness of ourselves.  When we are able to do this, only then can we truly be forgiving of outside of us... .

I am glad of those tears.  These are healing tears.  They wash away stifling cobwebs that have been imprisoning heart and soul.

I also believe (and this conclusion is also based on personal experience) that when a person manages anxiety, one can manage the issues. We believe as though we manage anxiety by managing issues... .but this is backwards.  We can only manage the issues that need to be changed once we manage the anxiety.

So, whether it takes a combination of therapy/counseling/medication-----whatever a healthy concoction of these it takes, pursue it.  With the reduction in your anxiety level, you will notice that issues will be more manageable... .and you will be more powerful to usher in the changes that you want.

I do see that your anxiety level is already reduced by being on this board vs. on the other board.  The posts are resonating differently with you.  Your spirit is on the path of healing... .the concept of healing is not a finality.  It is not as though a grand miracle happens and suddenly we stay on cloud 9 for ever.  Emotional health is like standing on a tight rope it is a moment by moment balance.  Once should expect times where the wind is strong and one has to flail arms wildly to stay on the rope... .but one does not fall... .the balance still remains... .precarious it may be though.

Walk on sister... .occasionally hold on to us here when you need us... .like you are doing now.

:-)

Thank you palla, I do take medication, I do see a social worker, and am in DBT. I do feel very positive he is talking to his parents  again although his father is a problem. I am glad I was able to send his parents a card and some photos. I'm looking forward to reading his father's reply.