BPDFamily.com

Hi friends,

I've been having some trouble lately with the emphasis on looking at ourselves and what was wrong with us, when many of us were victims of emotional or even physical abuse. I'm all for examining my role in the relationship problems and have been trying to do that, but I also firmly believe that I was a victim of emotional abuse, and that my ex (not me) is mentally ill and incapable of a healthy relationship. Are there other people here who feel similarly?

There was nothing inherently "wrong" with me when the relationship started, other than not having an advanced degree in psychology to be able to recognize what was going on and get out before I fell in love with her. I fell in love with her for the regular healthy reasons that anyone would fall in love (except that, again, I didn't have the advanced knowledge to recognize the BPD mirroring chameleon behavior). I didn't stay because I was a doormat or codependent, I just loved her and wanted to do everything in my power to make it work, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I definitely could have responded better to her BPD behaviors during the first part of our relationship. But when her BPD behaviors and/or normal relationship disagreements first started showing up, I was actually trying to communicate quite effectively, with a good balance of assertiveness and willingness to listen and compromise. The conflict came when she couldn't communicate that way, listen to me, or handle my normal human emotions. I made things worse by getting upset and continuing to ask her to act in a way that she wasn't capable of, not realizing and accepting sooner that she wasn't capable, but still, the root of that problem is her BPD.

And once I started using the tools to improve things, she's so addicted to drama that she responded by increasing her sabotaging and abusive behaviors to maintain or increase the level of conflict. I was giving her less material to paint me black with, so she felt like she didn't deserve me, afraid I would abandon her (especially since we moved to different places), and she had to sabotage the relationship. She made false accusations, was unfaithful, terribly disrespected my physical disability, broke up with me every few days, etc and eventually blew up the relationship. My new sense of boundaries are what kept me from recycling. If I hadn't found this board we'd probably still be together. I'd be miserable, but we'd be together.

Some of her behaviors were especially damaging to me because of my FOO issues (my parents were emotionally abusive and then my ex was emotionally abusive in a similar way), but I'd already done the work to recover from that. I would have been totally fine handling the normal ups and downs of a healthy relationship. In fact I would have been healthier and better at communicating than most people because I'd done years of hard work on myself.

My ex told me (and to this day is telling me) that there's something very wrong with me and my mental health. She even backpedaled on a lot of her insight and apologies for some of the more egregious behavior, instead rewriting history to blame it on me. And I know that is projection, gaslighting which is further emotional abuse, and it's just not true. She emotionally abused me. The only problem with my mental health currently is from the trauma that she inflicted on me. Does anyone else feel that way? And did anyone feel that way but then realize there was something going on with you?

Hi Thisagain

There are a number of things that I think we do not see at first.

Firstly our part in the dance. We ignore red flags. Yes at first they appear to be normal but the love bombing and being too good to be true is a red flag so why do we ignore this? What is it about us that we are so desperate for that can lead us into these relationships?

I was I thought a strong independent person. Well balanced and confident. I now realise I wasn't as confident as I thought I was and deep down I wanted that fairy tale romance and to meet my soul mate. This left me vulnerable.

Secondly yes you were a victim but only we can make ourselves victims. Look at con men. They target someone that has a weakness. Whether its greed or kindness the victims have left themselves open to be taken advantage of. Im not saying that pwBPD are con men or women. I believe in the beginning they want what we all want, a happy ending. The fact that they are not honest about who they are is just their nature. Its what they are used to so it becomes natural.

Finally the fact that most pwBPD see their ex as the one with a problem is all down to a point of view. We think differently. As we don't think the same as them then they see us as being the one with a problem. Whos to say what is normal only we can say what is normal for us. The same goes for a pwBPD they can only say what is normal for them.

Having been in an abusive relationship with my ex (non pwBPD) and explored this at length with my psychologist and counsellor, I'm quite keen not to take the "what was wrong with me?" approach to all this. When it comes to abusers, that way lies danger, because they are all too eager to push the angle that you contributed to it and it was all your fault. It's simple victim-blaming, and it can keep people stuck in bad relationships.

I agree that it's good to look at oneself and how one functions in a relationship, but looking at that through the lens of "what was WRONG with me" especially in terms of an abusive relationship can just lead to further damage and is diverting from the point.

Often we "ignore" red flags, because we don't know that they are red flags. Before the relationship with my exBPFbf, I didn't know that over-enthusiasm at the beginning a relationship was a red flag. I know it NOW, in fact I know the red flags off by heart, and one of the things my counsellor said is that I'm incredibly unlikely to become involved in another abusive relationship because of it. But this has been my learning process.

And it's rarely black and white anyway. Every person you meet with have a red flag. Every person you meet will have a moment where they seem to act in a disproportionate way to something. Cutting that person out of your life is not a sign of a healthy boundary, it's just a sign of having unrealistic expectations. Often abuse (or a disorder) is identified when you see a pattern of behaviour, and in order to identify that their behaviour is forming a pattern you have to stick around for a bit. In fact, as thisagain has already identified, sometimes the reason you stick around is precisely because you're looking at your own behaviour: "what have I done to contribute to this? How can I communicate more effectively to sort this out? Could I have be bringing my own issues to this conflict inappropriately?". And then, for a variety of reasons, you're in it and it may be difficult or painful to get out of that relationship.

I also agree that our feelings during these relationships can tell us a lot about ourselves, what's going on in our lives, what we need, what's happened in the past to form us, etc etc etc. Again though, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with us. Maybe it helps us identify what needs we need to meet and why those needs are there, and that's ok. I'm certainly not going to beat myself up for having any FOO issues and for having been shaped by them.

I absolutely, categorically do not agree with the premise that "only we can make ourselves victims". I don't think victim-blaming is ever helpful.

Unless its an out of the blue attack then we can normally avoid becoming victims. What I feel is more important though is not living as a victim. Yes most of our exs have done horrible things to us that in no way did we deserve. It doesn't mean we have to continue being a victim to it though. I have friends who were in the army and have been injured. They do not see themselves as victims. They get on with their lives and don't dwell on it. Its a lesson learnt as far as they are concerned. This is what I was meaning by only we can make ourselves victims.

I in no way blame the victim. I could sit here a moan about how much both my uBPD exs did to hurt me and for a time I did. I was still in victim mode. I no longer want to be a victim I want to use the experience to learn from and be able to avoid it happening again.

I see what you're saying; that it's our choice to either think of ourselves as victims or focus on being survivors. I agree with that. But in terms of protecting ourselves better, I'm not sure how realistic that is in many situations. I'm thinking here with my own set of biases, of course - there were a million reasons I stayed as a victim, but I refuse to accept that I was responsible for existing as that victim. It can happen to the best, the most prepared and the toughest of any of us, be it out of the blue or creeping and insidious. And the responsibility always lies with the perpetrator, as far as I'm concerned.

I too thought like that. Im not saying your wrong but for me I realised I stayed longer than most and put up with more than most because of who I am.

I looked at what about me made me want to rescue and why was I so concerned about people thinking bad of me. Why did the FOG keep me stuck when so many others would have walked away long before.

Ive come to accept I have my own set of issues that left me vulnerable to this sort of relationship. Im not blaming myself for them Im just recognising them. If I had never met either of my two uBPDs then I may never have realised about these issues and could have lived a happy normal life without them ever being a problem. Now that I am aware of them Im able to work on them and because of this Im a happier and less stressed person than I was.

Funny isn't it - I stayed for so long BECAUSE I thought I was responsible for the way he was behaving (that and because I had nowhere to go with two young children). It was turning those thoughts around and accepting that his behaviour was his responsibility that helped me gather the strength I needed to leave.

Same outcome, different paths to get there, I guess. What occurs to me is that in both cases, it took a change in attitude to get to where we needed to be.

We are victims of our own choices.   For myself, I willingly stepped in front of the bus time and time again because I was in love.  I do have a few codependency traits which certainly didn't help me avoid the bus either.

Initially I was much like how thisagain was; communicative, open, supportive, understanding, patient.   I would attempt to discuss things that impacted me, both in person and via email.   Problem was our interpersonal communication was mostly one sided, particularly when it came to my emotional well being.   She would listen but not engage or really absorb what was being discussed.    She seemed incapable of participating in an adult conversation regarding emotions and quite often would sit across from me like a sullen child. 

The only time she really wanted to "talk" was when it concerned her feelings or something she needed or wanted.  Having discovered BPD after our relationship ended I can now see many cases where I could have handled things better.  This was something I failed at.  While I did attempt to engage her I wasn't doing it effectively and my attempts diminished over time. 

I honestly don't know to what extent my ex is blaming me for our relationship failing, but I have no doubt that a good deal of it is being placed on my shoulders.  She also has selective memory and a tendency to rewrite history, casting herself as the victim.  I can remember in many instances saying ... .that's not what I said or that's not what happened. 

I have no doubt I am being cast as a bad person who wronged her.  She always had a problem with personal accountability.  If I am to be perfectly honest with myself,  in some ways I did fail her which has left me with a great deal of guilt and remorse. 

This is a tough one and has been for me.  5 years ago when I stumbled on the existence of BPD when trying to figure out what the problems in my marriage were, and how to fix them, I remember totally dismissing anything that implied or said that I was part of the problem.  In my head, once he was "fixed", we would be all good again.  I struggled with trying to get help including taking him to the hospital, leaving after he manipulated the doctor's to believe I was just a nagging wife and having to call 911 on my cell when he exploded in rage on the way home from the hospital (the police put him in the back of the car and took him back to the hospital where he was admitted for the night).  The next day he was diagnosed with depression and given meds but no follow up.  I tried getting us marriage counseling with 3 different counselors (all sabotaged by him) and enrolled us in a couple's communication course which he also sabotaged and apparently didn't learn a thing from (he claimed his new meds interferred).  During all of this I continued to dismiss anything that sounded like I was at fault.  Slowly it dawned on me that I needed to look at my own behavior but I really compartmentalized it.  I realized I had become no better than him by raging back at him in response to his rages.  I realized I needed to work on validation and I made those changes but I still refused to look at my own side of things beyond that. 

It wasn't until I truly began looking at healing myself, including the anger and resentments that I carry around which I thought was at him.  With a counselor, I had trouble with it but finally accepted that it wasn't him I was mad at but me.  I was upset that I had allowed the behaviors to continue without any boundaries, that I had allowed myself to stay in a relationship in which I felt fear more often than safety.  Most of all that I had allowed my  kids to be subjected to the kind of instability that they had to live with. 

Looking at myself meant looking into my whole history.  My issues of self esteem from childhood, my issues with men after several sexual assaults and a rape in my teens and early 20's.  My first husband was also controlling and abusive but in a much  less insidious way than my BPD ex was.  I don't think it's victim blaming to look at myself and why I chose these men in my life.  I needed (and still need) to do it to ensure I never end up in the same kind of position again.  I can't change the past but I absolutely can change my future by being proactive and doing the work I need to on me to make sure nothing ever happens to me like that again.  Working on my own self worth can't happen without acknowledging what I went through and why, including my own parts in the drama.  I think it's healthy.  None of us our perfect, including our exes and seeing them as "all black" and us as "all white" is no more healthy than them painting us black or white.

I don't think emphasizing personal reflection is about assigning blame within the relationship, but rather about self-awareness and empowerment. My dBPDxgf inflicted all the abuse and destroyed the relationship by herself (hell, she even admits that) but I can still gain a lot of understanding, power and healing by reviewing my own behavior within the r/s.

For instance, I used to always love it when she was needy and would send an "I miss you" text out of the blue. I would build self-esteem by receiving such needy gestures, and would become depressed when I didn't receive them. Why is that? Why did I have this "need" to be needed? This has nothing at all to do with my ex and her actions, but everything to do with me and my emotional health.

It is one area I will need to address in order to find future happiness, and I would not have realized it without first looking at myself and how I behaved within my BPD r/s.

enlighten me wrote---

Look at con men. They target someone that has a weakness. Whether its greed or kindness the victims have left themselves open to be taken advantage of.

----Sounds like blaming the victim

Im not saying that pwBPD are con men or women. I believe in the beginning they want what we all want, a happy ending. The fact that they are not honest about who they are is just their nature. Its what they are used to so it becomes natural.

------Robbers are used to robbing and it may become natural... .that doesn't make it okay.  pwBPD are "not honest about who they are" because of dishonesty and BPD traits.

Finally the fact that most pwBPD see their ex as the one with a problem is all down to a point of view. We think differently. As we don't think the same as them then they see us as being the one with a problem. Whos to say what is normal only we can say what is normal for us. The same goes for a pwBPD they can only say what is normal for them.

----The DSM describes traits and symptoms of BPD, which are not traits of a "normal" person.  So a diagnosis can fit someone, it's not just dependent on what we or the pwBPD thinks is normal.  pwBPD often see the ex as the one with the problem, not because it's their "point of view" but because they project negative traits outside of themselves onto others. THey also project responsibility out from them to us

You can call it victim blaming if you like. I don't see it as that myself. If you walked into the wrong part of town and got mugged then its not your fault you were mugged but you could have done things differently. These are life lessons. You learn to avoid danger but you only learn by having examples. For me ive learnt that there are a lot of things I could have done differently. I realise that I left myself open.

You say that the DSM says its not traits of a normal person. Can you show me the DSM criteria for what is considered normal? Its a matter of perspective in my opinion and rather than normal I would say healthy. My opinion of what is healthy or "normal" would probably differ to yours. If you read posts by pwBPD they do see their behaviour as normal. Its only when they start treatment and realise that their way of thinking is different to others and understand the hurt they cause that they see their behaviour as not healthy. I think this is where a lot of people get confused as they think that a pwBPD thinks like us and because of this what they do must be malicious. A recent poster with BPD said that she used to think lying was normal and believed everyone did it all the time.

Somehow I think there are always two assumptions when it comes to these kind of relationships - (a) the personality disordered person dished out a completely bat$hit crazy behavior from day one and (b) the other party in the relationship took it and asked for more for years without any boundaries whatsoever. Of course, just like we are reminded to remember not to have black and white thinking, we also need to remember that there are a lot of shades in personality disorders as well as "nons" and their personal boundaries. To give you an example on boundaries, my best buddy dated his current wife for years. I don't know how many times while they dated I told him he needed to dump her and walk away without looking back because she put him through stuff that I'd never accept. Somehow he had a way to make it all work, they have been married 5 years now and have a one year old kid. Fast forward years after all my advice for my buddy to dump his gf/current wife, the same buddy was sitting at a table with me and telling me that after the kind of disrespect my ex showed me (the very first time, mind you), I had to walk away from her and not look back (which I did). It is always easier to make suggestions like that when you aren't involved in it and your heart is calm.

The point of the story is this. Everybody's story is a bit different. Yes, of course, if you put up with a ton crappy behavior and flat out abuse and let it go on for years, you probably need to figure out why this was acceptable to you. Then of course just about every time somebody posts something along the lines - "I have finally figured out, all these relationships are hopeless", we get reminders that there is a slight chances that if the "non" is willing to bend over backwards to make it work (wouldn't you have to ask yourself why would you wanna do that, just like you'd need to ask yourself why you stayed in an abusive relationship to begin with?) and the personality disordered person is willing to go through a psychological treatment (the vast majority are not willing to do that), there is a chance it might work.

Do a postmortem of that relationship. See if you were willing to overlook a bit too much and why. Don't dwell on trying to figure out whose fault it was and where. Some of it is on you, some of it on disorder. Remember, things are rarely black and white in life.

But that was the whole thing about this relationship for me: it wasn't the wrong part of town. It was actually a really, really REALLY nice part of town, it just had this one turning that took me to a place I didn't know my way around, and once I'd got much further in, the nice bits started to look a bit a bit crappy. But every town has slightly crappy bits, and I wasn't sure if just beyond that crappy bit it would get nice again. The towns I'm used to are like that. And to be honest, the map I had when I came in here suddenly wasn't like the maps I was used to reading, it didn't make sense and I could't find the way out. And then it was while I was in the crappy bit that I didn't plan to go to, with a map I couldn't read - that's when I got mugged.

That's the thing we all have different points where we think this isn't right and head back the way we came. Its what made us keep going that we have to consider. Why did we push on when things didn't seem right? Why did we make excuses? Why did we convince ourselves that it was going to be ok?

enlighten wrote

You say that the DSM says its not traits of a normal person. Can you show me the DSM criteria for what is considered normal? Its a matter of perspective in my opinion and rather than normal I would say healthy. My opinion of what is healthy or "normal" would probably differ to yours.

----That is not what I wrote. I wrote that the DSM describes traits of BPD, and those traits are not those of a normal person. That's why it's a psychiatric diagnosis.  It's not a matter of perspective, those are psychiatric traits which can be diagnosed by a professional, whatever someone else's opinion is.

If you read posts by pwBPD they do see their behaviour as normal.

------Psychopaths also see their behavior as normal. Some psychotic people also do, etc.   That distorted view and denial do not make the behavior normal.  BPD is a serious mental illness with severe symptoms, and can be life-threatening.

Shatra wrote

----The DSM describes traits and symptoms of BPD, which are not traits of a "normal" person.

Enlighten me wrote:

You say the dsm says it's not traits of a normal person.

Shantra wrote:

That's not what I wrote.




Darsha500 wrote.

This back a forth seems unproductive, and ultimately pointless. That, however, is only my perspective.

i agree.

i saw an old member write that early on in our process, being told to "examine your role" feels as if your child died, and you are being told to examine your role in that. at best, it can feel awfully invalidating. youre grieving, and it sounds like a finger being pointed at you. "isnt this bpdfamily? didnt i come here to learn more about my ex and BPD and share with others what i have been through?" well sure! i think most of us came here looking for answers. what i think can be difficult to see is that most of the answers lie inside of us.

i dont think the notion of examining ones role is about blame. i dont think its about being the bigger person. its not even about having ignored red flags, although that can be a great start (it can also be about blame). its not about labels (although the membership here have many issues in common. you are already doing great work in connecting your FOO issues and youre not alone in this connection)

we are all, sadly, on the leaving board, and since our relationships have concluded, it is fundamentally about detachment. who and what can we change at this point but ourselves? who and what are our energy best spent on? therefore, it is about empowerment. it is about balance. it is about detaching in a healthy way. and ultimately it tends to yield the answers we are looking for. no one is expected to have this attitude over night.

was i emotionally abused? sure. did my ex realize her behavior was abusive? probably not. does that make it less abusive? no. what took me a long time to realize was that i emotionally abused her too, whether i realized it or not.

at this point, what part of that takeaway is most valuable to me? what part of that summary can i tangibly do something with?

i like to think of my role in a very visual sense. i see the relationship as one long unhealthy dance. every step a dysfunctional action or reaction from her or i. the following link, particularly the reply of a senior member, really helps aid my visual: PERSPECTIVES: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.0)

as for whether or not we are victims, i found i reached the freedom stage as i moved From Victim to Survivor to Thriver  (http://www.cbwhit.com/Victim-to-survivor.htm). another empowering notion :)

I think that there can be tendency here to focus on our part in these relationships rather than our exes and it can feel particularly invalidating in the early stages when most of us are still struggling to process our pain grief and anger at what's happened.

Is it productive? Yes I think it is. 

What's the alternative?

Ultimately we're powerless to change our exes or their behaviour but we do have power to change ourselves and moving away from a victim mentality empowers us to grow and move forward.

It's often hard and painful work and when you feel very injured and wronged it's completely natural to periodically revert back to anger and blame towards the ex who caused you a lot of pain.

I know I've done this, but it's a cul de sac.

But it's also important to allow other members the time and space to reach the point where they're ready to do this.

To my mind the sweet spot in healing lies between self examination and immersing yourself in the here and now.

A lot of our healing happens under the hood so to speak and committing ourselves to new activities, socialising and exercise gives our mind a much needed break from introspection.

There is no time scale for detaching and healing. We have to drive it a pace that works for us, but I think it takes more than time to heal, it takes effort and commitment

Reforming

Part of the problem for me is that people phrase it in terms of what you did to contribute to the relationship ending, and seem to want to split blame for the relationship not working. I know very well that all I could have done better in the relationship was to set firm boundaries earlier, and leave when (not if) they were violated. I could have spotted red flags and slowed down or stopped as they came up. I could have refused to allow her to treat me badly long enough that I started yelling back.

The thing is, all of these would have led to the relationship ending SOONER, not made it work better or last longer. There really wasn't an option for me to stay in the relationship and make it work - I could have stayed in and tolerated bad behavior until it wore me down to the point of a nervous breakdown or suicide, but that doesn't count as working. I think the 'how did you contribute' questions are really destructive to someone trying to get to grips with a no-win situation.

I think how we contributed is a little misinterpreted. Yes I did contribute but the things my ex saw as negative a non would probably not have.

By giving my ex space and showing I trusted her was seen as abandonment. Is what I did a negative in a healthy relationship? I would say no it isn't. Did it contribute to the breakdown of my BPD relationship. I would say yes.

That's just one example.

Its not a case that we directly went out of our way to hurt them its just our actions weren't received in the manner in which they were intended.

You bring up a really interesting point there enlighten me.

So in AA one of the twelve steps is to make amends for wrongs done. In currently taking a SPONSEE through this step. But as we were going through it, it made me reflect on my relationship. I couldn't help by think of all the wrongs done to me, at first. But then I stopped to consider my part. As that is what the step is about, analyzing and taking responsibility for our part.

I thought that my only part was not being more assertive and honest with my feelings. But you make this really good point that it's not so much the intention as the result that counts. I did many things that I didn't realize we're hurtful to her.

It's sort of a dilemma I'm going to have to ponder.

I agree.  I am struggling with this as well.   I was not aware of BPD until post discard, but now that I am aware I can see many instances where I could have behaved better, reacted better, been more patient.  It really has me feeling a lot of guilt and remorse because I know I triggered some of her hurtful behavior.  

That being said, I also have to tell myself that regardless of my contribution to triggering her, the stuff she did is just a part of her and eventually would have manifested itself one way or the other.   I don't know if this is fair or not, but my gut tells me it is true.   It still doesn't keep me from wondering if the destruction of the relationship could have been avoided ... .or would it have just lead to the end being delayed?  I really don't know.

Hmm. My situation seems to be a bit different. In my relationship I took responsibility for almost everything that went wrong. Sometimes I did this just to appease my ex and get him to stop lashing out at me or being spiteful (which is something I definitely shouldn't have done) but often I genuinely believed that it was all because of me. I wasn't patient enough, I wasn't selfless enough, I wasn't generous enough, I was being unreasonable, I was too critical. A big part of my recovery has been accepting that no, it wasn't me.

Now my only regret is not telling the truth when I was afraid of him - he would look at me with a facial expression that used to literally make me feel sick because I knew a rage was coming, and say something like, "You don't believe me, do you?" or (even worse - danger ahead) "I know what you think. You think that... ." And I would rush to reassure him that I did believe in his latest paranoid worry or suspicion, whatever it was, that I did agree with him, just to avert the hurricane. But again, I was not like that at the beginning of our relationship - it was something I learned to do in response to his outbursts, because psychologically I couldn't cope with them.

i think this is a perfect example of examining ourselves without blaming. balletomane, have you dug into why you took that responsibility and how things got that way in the relationship?

Thanks for the thoughtful comments everyone! I'm trying to digest all of this little by little... .my interest in thinking about my ex or BPD has decreased significantly over the past few weeks and I'm trying to spend more time putting my life back together.

The above posts by Gonzalo and Enlighten Me pretty much sum up how I feel about the whole thing. I think all I really could have done differently was figure out the BPD sooner and start applying the tools (especially boundaries) sooner. And that would have just caused the relationship to end sooner, either by me having to leave because of a boundary, or her blowing the relationship up to remain at her comfort-zone level of drama. Like I said before, me having boundaries and refusing to play the role she wanted me to in her drama directly led to the breakdown of the relationship.

She accuses me of hurting her so much, being abusive, etc... .but like Enlighten said, almost 100% of the things she perceived as hurtful and abusive were either totally normal and healthy, or me responding to her BPD behaviors in a less-than-ideal way out of confusion and desperation. And by less-than-ideal, I mostly mean responding like a normal human with normal human emotions (being sad when she gave me ST, begging her to hold me when I was sad, etc). I should have accepted that she couldn't hold me or be there for me, yes, but it's also totally normal and healthy to want that from a partner. Everyone makes mistakes, but mine were well within the realm of normal inevitable mistakes that everyone makes in a relationship.

I did develop some codependent-type behaviors, which I did not have at all in previous relationships. Like trying to head off a dysregulation by offering advice or getting too involved in something that was none of my business. But I see that as a totally understandable response to being with a person who is constantly bringing crises upon herself and using them as an excuse to mistreat me. And I realized there was a grain of truth to her accusation (that I was being controlling), thought hard about it, worked with my T about it, and stopped doing it. And again, the relationship blew up the most AFTER that. 

My ex BPD always mentioned "cause and effect ", at that time in the relation I didn't think It was me but her behavior that triggered her episodes of rage due to my response at that moment .

Unfortunaly I see it now being out and almost healed ,I say almost but a year and a half latter .

I should have reacted differently like she said, instead of yelling back at me you should hug me and calm me down and tell me everything is going to be okay .

  The patience was at a minimum level at that time or that moment,  too many ups and downs, a wrong word would trigger a long hostile night ... .It was tough .

Whoever said that you can't be in the hurting stage and blame so much on yourself , I agree once you are on the way of the last period of recovery  it's noble thing to confess the mistakes you have done  to yourself and become a better person in your future relationships .

It takes two to Tango !

I appreciate this post! A lot! Yes, I think it's always useful to look at ourselves and what we've learned and could have done better after ANY relationship, BPD or not, but hindsight is 20/20 and a lot of times we're dealing with people who were very effective at covering up their true natures for a long time. Asking "well why were you attracted to that person?" seems... .kind of insulting at times.

(Asking "why did you stay so long after things were so bad?" is potentially much more useful and important for future growth, but some of us didn't even get that opportunity -- my guy only showed his crazy as he was breaking up with me... .)


I LOVE this!

I mean, every new relationship is like a city we've never been to before, or a movie we've never seen before where the signs are only obvious after we've seen the end.

What's particularly hard about a BPD city is it's one that said, "Welcome! Look, here's a gorgeous apartment decorated just to your liking, in your price range, and right on the bus line -- oh and hey, that dream job you interviewed for? You're totally hired!" and the neighbors were nice and everything felt really nice and really safe and then suddenly the apartment blew up and the boss started screaming at you for no reason and you were like "What the hell is going on?"

Usually when something looks too good to be true - it is too good to be true.  

As some other posters have said blaming ourselves or others for what happened to us isn't really helpful. It doesn't change anything or help us change ourselves

I think it's healthy and smart to try and learn from your mistakes. People who really thrive learn to adapt and change behaviour that doesn't deliver what they need without being too harsh on themselves

For PDs that's hard, because many of them are smothered in so much shame that they struggle with self awareness, self regulation and lack the skills to learn from their mistakes and modify their behaviour.

But and I think it's a big but - changing your behaviour is not walk in the park, even for us so called NONs.

Reforming

Darsha 500 wrote--

Shatra wrote

----The DSM describes traits and symptoms of BPD, which are not traits of a "normal" person.

Enlighten me wrote:

You say the dsm says it's not traits of a normal person.

Shantra wrote:

That's not what I wrote.

Darsha500 wrote.

This back a forth seems unproductive, and ultimately pointless. That, however, is only my perspective.

-----It's productive because I was clarifying what I had written. The point is someone had misquoted me and (in the rest of my post which you didn't copy) I clarified the point that BPD is a serious psychiatric disorder which can be diagnosed. It is not a matter of someone's opinion of their traits, it's an actual diagnosis.

   You will see other posts in this forum with people going "back and forth", agreeing or disagreeing, and clarifying points

I know this is 2 days old but I wanted to response to this and to the OP. What I have learned through reading BPD, NPD and Narcissism books is that the attraction we have for these people is stemmed from our childhood.  That could have been physically or/and mentally abuse and by having NPD, BPD parents sometimes without us knowing. I do wonder if my parents were Narcissistic (My Dad being the codependent one) If we had been raised in a healthy upbringing (I am not sure what Healthy really is to be honest) we would notice right away and recognized some of the symptoms or traits of BPD, NPD people. I knew that my ex liked to get drunk and be obnoxious and did a lot of things a normal person would not do. However, I ignored it because I was attracted to her looks, charisma, and for apparently her being happy all the time. She was the opposite of who I am. I am somewhat introverted and she made me feel "alive”!

I have learned that because of the way my parents raised me I became codependent without me knowing. I was and still am a pleaser that wants to do good things for other and make everyone else happy and not caring for my own needs and happiness.  I am reading how to stop from pleasing others all the time.  I don't know about your upbringing but I know for a fact that when I was growing up my mother was the strict parent in contrast to my father being the laid back guy always defending us when my mother beat us.  

What I have learned is that I remolded my feelings to appease my mother from her beating us up. To a degree it’s shocking to learn this at 43 but I have to fix this or I will be in this type of relationships for the rest of my life.  I am not sure if I can post this here ! I don't know if here or somewhere else someone suggested to read the book "The Human Magnet Syndrome" by Ross Rosenberg (Admins if I can't post that here please delete).  This book is fantastic. I recommend it.

My uBPDm never beat my brother and me, but she was very emotionally abusive. She was always the victim of something, and used to depend on us (and nobody else) for sympathy. My memories go all the way back to the first year of my life, and I have NO memory of my parents ever being affectionate with each other. They were always fighting and yelling in front of me and my brother. I have so many memories of my mother collapsing on the floor, a total sobbing mess. I wanted desperately to be able to do something, but there was nothing I could do. I used to hate myself for being unable to alleviate her suffering. However, I eventually learned to climb out of the despair, and I have grown immensely over the years.

So yes, I do know why I feel the way that I do. I used to be a pleaser too, but stopped letting people walk all over me years ago. However, I am still attracted to waif-like traits (although not hopelessly so.  :)) I've dated several nons before, so I am pretty optimistic I will able to find and thrive in a normal, healthy emotional relationship eventually.

Notsurewhattothinkofthis, this was very helpful. Thank you for opening up and sharing.

Thanks so much for this post -- this has been on my mind a lot lately.

I think it can take a while to really get to know someone and to see patterns in their behavior over time.

For example, when things first starting seeming really "off" with my ex-husband, he was in very stressful job situation.  At first, I thought it was the situation and he was, in some ways, a victim.  It wasn't until the situation started repeating itself with different people at different jobs -- and then with me -- that I realized he was really driving it and that he was a huge part of his problems.

It's easy now to look back and see the "red flags" at the beginning.  But now, I have a historical context in which to place them.  I didn't have that historical perspective when I first met him-- it wasn't possible to have it.

This is one of the things I sometimes find frustrating about bpdfamily as a forum - the very common assumption that there must be some sort of problem in our families that led us to date people with BPD. I had a very loving family who were nothing but supportive and nurturing in my childhood. The first time I was asked on here if I'd had a problematic family of origin - and the question was phrased in a leading way, so it was obvious that the expected answer was 'yes' - I got the feeling that I wasn't even being believed when I said no.

I know you don't mean it this way, but suggesting that people who haven't grown up in abusive homes must be able to notice BPD right away only adds to the self-doubt and self-blame for those of us who did have a positive upbringing but still ended up in a painful and damaging relationship. "I never got beaten by my mum, my dad was never emotionally cold with me, so I must have no excuse for being manipulated by him and it's all my fault for letting it happen." I did recognise that my ex had difficulties, but I also understood that mental health problems are not necessarily a barrier to a fulfilling and loving relationship - the important things are insight and good communication, and at first he seemed to have those. I'd known him for years. The abuse crept up incrementally, little by little, until eventually I started to accept is as normal. Another important part of my healing has been acknowledging that this can happen to anyone. A loving family and good upbringing might help, but it doesn't act as a total immunization against the abusive behaviour and bad choices of others.

I think we need to accept that we've all had different experiences and only speak for ourselves and our own experiences, not try to generalise too much about what others have been through.

Balletomane I have to agree. I also had a loving upbringing. I had a good childhood and have had no trauma in my life. I guess what I am saying is that I am what I am like and its not due to FOO or trauma.

I think its just the way Im wired.

Gonzalo wrote---

I know very well that all I could have done better in the relationship was to set firm boundaries earlier, and leave when (not if) they were violated. I could have spotted red flags and slowed down or stopped as they came up. I could have refused to allow her to treat me badly

-----I could have done the above too. I could have also spoken up  more when he was doing the push-pull, and done more validation... .ultimately though, he has a psychiatric diagnosis with severe symptoms which seriously affect his relationships and communication (among other things).  And part of that disorder is to push people away (with or without triggers) and pull them back. So, like other people on this board, no matter what I could have done or not done differently, he would have pushed me away.

----Yes, like others I wanted to "help" him, and like others have written I stayed, hoping he would get more comfortable with closeness. It never really happened, in a lasting way.  And this is how he is, I now see, with other people.  I need to keep in mind that he has a psychiatric diagnosis which limits and affects his actions, no matter what I do, say, or don't do.

Of course I did not mean that my situation is related everybody. But CODEPENDENCY stems from childhood and that is why we get abused and keep coming for more. Everyone has different issues to deal with. I am not generalizing everyone got abused and beat up in their childhood.  What I meant was that either we believe it or not we subconsciously are attracted to people that somehow fills a gap of what we are missing or craving within ourselves. That crave would be either be to be funnier, more attractive, smarter who knows. But most (Again not all) people are craving what they don’t have emotionally.

Again, I am basing this opinion on from what I read from Ross’s studies and conclusions. I believe we are getting off topics here but to me that make sense and has made me realize why I get myself involved with these type of people and what I need to work on.

I feel that the "look within" guidance can be sometimes counterproductive. Although it is well intentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if 25% of new members are turned off after hearing that advice and just leave the site­. I think it should be given with caution while considering the amount of time away from the relationship the member has or by how much a member is currently hurting. Some have had milder BPD relationships and some very hellish ones.

I am more comfortable at offering healing advice / recovery steps to members such as something like this:

1. Look not within. Look at your ex instead. Try to understand what they are or were all about. The more you begin to understand about the pwBPD you will hate them less or not even at all after a while. Eventually you might feel sorry for them and wish them the best even from a far with no words exchanged.

2. Now begin to look at everything from a spectators seat at a theatre toward the past relationship film. Play every moment back in your mind casually but with a thirst for knowledge when you are ready in bits or all at once. After playing the film back you might see that some things that you thought were happening weren't and things that you thought weren't actually were. Absorb all you have learned.

3. After Step #2 is completed, place what you have learned about yourself (the good and / or the mistakes and the realities) in a file in your brain space to help use in the future.

4. Live long and prosper.

Awakenedone I agree that in the beginning self reflection isn't a good thing.

You need to get through the initial hurt.

You then need answers and unfortunately you will never get all the answers to all the questions.

Self reflection is an advanced tool and theres a lot that you need to understand before it is of any real use to you.

It probably more of a personal inventory topic than a leaving one.

For self reflection to be of any use you need to be in an unbiased place. Its like post game analysis. You need to see what your team did that was good and bad. A real view of this cant happen if you are upset with the result. There can be a lot of blame that the other team cheated or the ref was biased but very little fault placed on your team.

Maybe there should be a left board for when people have been out of the relationship long enough for the more advanced ideas to be helpful.

Awakenedone,  I generally agree with what you have outlined in your steps to healing with one exception.  I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through.  Relationships are a two way street (act <-> react).  I would think this requires at least a some personal reflection in order to truly understand.

enlighten me wrote---

For self reflection to be of any use you need to be in an unbiased place. Its like post game analysis. You need to see what your team did that was good and bad. A real view of this cant happen if you are upset with the result. There can be a lot of blame that the other team cheated or the ref was biased but very little fault placed on your team.

---Yes, and they can also put a lot of blame on themselves---if only I had practiced more, if only I ran faster, and very little responsiblilty placed on the other team

Stein wrote---

I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through.  Relationships are a two way street (act <-> react).  I would think this requires at least a some personal reflection in order to truly understand.

---In my case it's true... .I should have validated more, I should have been more assertive, I gave too much space at times... .but to think that our behavior "contributed" to the BPD behavior is risky. It's important to keep in miind that they are like this with everybody. Often even with strangers. And definitely with people they spend more time with. Sooner or later, the pwBPD is going to act out their BPD behaviors with everyone; they will split everyone (whether or not they say it out loud), they will push everyone away in some form, etc.  Yes we can trigger them at times, but to think that we contribute to their behavior is risky.  They have a serious disorder with serious symptoms, and they will experience those symptoms with whoever they are close to, whether those people are saints or not.

I think that most posters agree that reflection has a place. It's a question of timing and we all process things at a different pace.

The question I would ask is what's the alternative?

If we never examine our part in these relationships where do we end up?

It's easy and very understandable to get stuck in anger and blame, I've done it myself, but that doesn't help us detach and move forward.

And I think apportioning blame is rarely ever helpful - taking responsibility for our choices - not the choices of others - allows us to learn and grow stronger.

Reforming

What I have learned is that there is a lot of BS on these forums that you have to tune out to get better. There wasn't any history of abuse in my family at all, and my parents simply don't show signs of any personality disorder. I know the standard response is, 'oh, you must have repressed the memory' or 'oh, you must not recognize the signs' or 'oh, denial is the first sign of... .', but that's a load of crap. And it really hurts the healing of people who didn't follow that path who aren't able to tune out clear nonsense the way I had to when I was relying on this board more.


The pwBPD reacts to stuff in their own head, the fact that a badly broken person gets mad at normal compassionate behavior does not mean that the person acting in a normal and compassionate manner contributed to their behavior. I didn't do anything wrong when I told her that I was fine with whatever worked for her on a particular week. I wasn't being unreasonable when I asked her what a number she blurted at me was for so that I could remember it. I wasn't insinuating that she was fat when I offered to make her a side, she didn't want it, and I didn't offer a different one.

I think viewing things like this is a good way to continue being a victim for the rest of your life. Abusive relationships are a one-way street, and it's sad that there's so much victim blaming on an otherwise helpful board. I refuse to accept any blame whatsoever for her emotional abuse.

Gonzalo wrote---

The pwBPD reacts to stuff in their own head, the fact that a badly broken person gets mad at normal compassionate behavior does not mean that the person acting in a normal and compassionate manner contributed to their behavior.

---True. A pwBPD has a psychiatric diagnosis with severe symptoms which seriously affect his relationships and communication.  And part of that disorder is to push people away (with or without triggers) and pull them back. So, like other people on this board, no matter what I could have done or not done differently, he would have pushed me away.  And he would have done this to anyone else in the world, no matter how well they treated him.

I'm not sure that this board is guilty of victim blaming or advises people to "tune out" - not sure what you mean by that.

Do you mean condone, or accept?

I would never defend or justify my exes choices or behaviour, but at a certain point I think blame is an exercise in futility. It doesn't change anything

I think the board does encourage us to become more self aware and educated about how we relate to others whether they're disordered or not. Pretty useful skills I think no matter what your family background.

Very few of us have perfect childhoods and some of us have been more unlucky than others. We all have strengths and vulnerabilities and learning about this can help us make the most of our lives.

Reforming

if we arent careful, we can lean a little hard on labels and diagnoses.

which is true: "my ex has BPD so theres nothing i could have done" or "theres so much i could have done, im to blame"?

the answer is likely somewhere in the middle, less black and white.

codependency is another label we can lean a little hard on or throw around. its not one im at all comfortable applying to myself, but i sure did learn a lot from examining it. we do have a high percentage of members who relate to codependency, and we have a high percentage of members who have made profound connections relating to childhood (there is a reason its one place a good therapist will start). it doesnt have much to do with childhood or my family, but in my case, i do see a clear path i took that led me to, and partly kept me in, a relationship with my BPDex. i feel it was ultimately very valuable for me to examine.

Falling in Love with an Unavailable Person (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a117.htm)

i can see a little bit of myself all over this list. not a bit of that is about blaming myself.

ps. we learn about BPD and it understandably makes us feel a great deal better, soothes some of the greatest fears we have coming out of these relationships. how far do we take our learning? what do we do with it now?

I disagree completely. My ex has BPD and wasn't willing to address it or even admit it, so there's nothing I could have done. There isn't any grey area at all, there was no path I could take that would be a win. I would have had to either give up on all happiness for myself and kept accepting her abuse, which would have eventually led to me being committed or dead, or I could have set better boundaries - which would have ended the relationship sooner. The myth of the middle ground is destructive.

My therapist, who has talked to both of us, agrees that unless my ex- had been willing to admit her issues and go into therapy, I was in a losing situation. Realizing that you can't always make it work was very healthy for me, and makes it so that I now don't feel bad if I need to turn away from a relationship because of red flags. The myth of the middle ground would leave me blaming myself for her problems, and endlessly replaying things in my head trying to find the right answer.

Victim blaming has happened in this very thread, for example "I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through." If she reacts badly to someone acting like a normal, caring human being and trying to interact with her like an adult, the problem is with her, not with some alleged 'contribution' from me. The worst part is the implication that if I had done things differently I wouldn't have 'contributed' to her attacks - it was a hopeless situation, and the only thing I did wrong was to not get our earlier (or, more completley, to set better boundaries, which would have led to me getting out earlier when they were violated).

The board doesn't advise people to tune out, what I had to do was tune out the victim blaming and middle myth stuff while paying attention to the useful advice and sympathetic stories. If I bought into the idea that I was 'contributing' to her issues, I would have been stuck trying to keep the relationship going or restart it after figuring out how to stop 'contributing' to her. That would not have been good at all.

I think that there are different interpretations going on. Unless I had been a lump of wood I would have triggered problems with my ex so therefore I did contribute. It doesn't mean I am to blame for her behaviour though. Then again I think even as a piece of wood she would have tripped over me and I would have been in the doghouse for getting under her feet.

By understanding what it was that set my ex off has actually made me feel less blame for what I did. I realise that my behaviour wasn't bad and it was actually her not being able to cope with things or behave in a healthy way that was to blame. Before this realisation I still believed it was probably my fault.

By realising how our interactions may have set off our exs isn't a case of taking the blame. By suggesting this isnt victim blaming. Its just another piece of a very confusing jigsaw that helps to see the bigger picture of what happened.

Could I have done things differently?  Of course!   There is always room for being a better partner. 

Would it have made the relationship work or changed the outcome?  I don't think so.  Eventually the anger and splitting comes out and you become the enemy.   This is because no matter what you do, the other person has a mental illness.

Speaking for myself and trying to avoid any generalisations - my relationship, my time on this board and educating myself has made me much more aware of my own behaviour and potential red-flag in prospective partners. I think this pretty useful

If I've had some of those skills and strengths early in my relationship I might have handled things better.

Do I think the outcome would have been different?

I don't know for certain, but I think it's very likely that the relationship would have ended sooner which would have been healthier.

We all make choices and I'm prepared to own mine.

Again speaking for myself - I also said and did things which I regret and some of my exes observations about my behaviour were valid.

That doesn't mean I defend or accept her bad or destructive behaviour or blame myself, but I recognise that how I behaved had an impact on our relationship

I don't think understanding our behaviour equals blame. It's about improving our self awareness

That's just my perspective and I'm totally comfortable with the idea that others have equally valid and different experiences and perspectives.

Reforming.

Once removed wrote---

which is true: "my ex has BPD so theres nothing i could have done" or "theres so much i could have done, im to blame"?

-----THere's no getting around it---if they are diagnosed with BPD, it is a serious psychiatric diagnosis, with serious symptoms.  Those symptoms are  evident especially in relationships, no matter how well the partner treats them.  We can focus on coping skills.There is nothing we "could have done" to remove or change their BPD, nothing.     We can suggest they get therapy and stick with therapy, and they might get better, but we could not have changed their BPD. We can learn coping skills, and we can hide when they rage, but sooner or later, no matter who we are, they are going to act out the BPD symptoms with us.  No matter how great we are, and no matter how we treat them. I realize it's hard for some people to accept this reality, and I realize it would be nice if we could "do something" to make them better, but we cannot.  Unless they don't have BPD.

In my honest opinion

Yes i DO have some codependency, and yes it made things more difficult for me in the relationship.

However, my ex did have BPD, she was a serial cheater on every boyfriend she had had, and was an almost compulsive liar. On top of that she has all the other borderline criteria, engulfment and attatchment triggers etc.

Put simply, she was proven to be untrustworthy, and it wasn't logical to expect or hope for any kind of improvement.

Had i been healthy, i never would have gotten involved with her, of if i had done, i would have left very, very early on.

My part in it, and probably most of ours was staying too long.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit. It's a worthwhile discussion, so please feel free to start a new thread to continue.

Turkish