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Just wondering... .one thing I saw in the wisdom of the ruling giving BPDex primary was how much containment was put on her as well.  Our counselor who is experienced at high conflict preaches containment, containment, containment... .says that is the only way to deal with high conflict personalities.

Now we have it--BPD mom has to take the boys to the therapist twice a month, the same therapist who testified she was an alienator, and she has to let DH take them twice a month; all of her communication to DH has to go through a third party, and that third party can make recommendations that they have to follow AND can report to the courts.  She can't move with the boys (as I am sure her first plan was).

Prior to this BPD mom ran the show.  When we had a GAL involved (who was dismissed last year, thank God), he let her break the order right and left and call the shots.  That won't work anymore.

All that to say, although there is a chance she may succeed and tow the line (judge told her if she didn't she would lose the boys), I just can't imagine it.  Anyone have any similar experiences?  Is it bad I am giving her three months?

I think odds are very likely she won't be able to stick with it.

It's sad.  Why not just give custody to the responsible parent that doesn't need the court to threaten and contain and be done with all the drama so everyone can move on?  The court won't be able to control a BPD.  It makes no sense.

For my husband's ex, she was not able to maintain having the kids full-time and the high expectations that go with being a custodial parent.

But she tried very hard and did the best as she could.

Being a single mama with kiddos is tough. Even tougher is when you are at war with your ex who isn't willing to offer support in any way because of the constant conflict in the parenting relationship. Even tougher is when you suffer from anxiety and depression and could use the support any chance you can get.  

She eventually realized it was so much easier (financially and emotionally) share custody of the children. 50/50 custody was the best thing that ever happened for her --- we just had to take the longest, most expensive and emotionally draining route possible to get there.

I think you're wise in seeing that the judge is trying to reduce the conflict in the situation. I'm also glad that the Judge is seeing that mom isn't helping facilitate the relationship between the boys and their dad and is offering solutions and penalties for that.

I also try to hope for the best.  

Maybe you can become acclimated to this new arrangement. Let her be the parent for a while and do all the heavy lifting. It sounds like for the first time, you are happy with the professionals involved and they sound capable. That really helps when you have faith in that sense and maybe just maybe, they can help repair the affects that all this turmoil has had on your family.

My husband and I were always able to make it work. Even when the child support sucked up a lot of our money. ($2000 is a lot -- that was what my husband paid when they were in daycare!) I also know that there isn't an amount that would ever make her fiscally responsible, so she always tended to struggle. Boundaries were really important in that sense, with my husband often having to decline any monetary requests for extras. Never rude, but just stating that it wasn't possible.

This road has been so long for you, sanemom. I hope that you can find some much needed peace.  

My experience was that my court always wanted to make the least amount of changes, baby step improvements.  For example, when I got custody they didn't want to change the equal parenting time.  Predictably I was back in court a year later and after some 17 months I did get the majority time but only during the school year.

Your DH went from clear majority time to slight minority time.  That's surprising, I would have figured that at worst court would have done no more than down shift to equal time.  As I wrote before, I think the court wanted unemployed mother to be sure to get her Child Support.

Anther factor is that I was a father fighting for more time and then mother lost only a little at a time.  With DH, it was Mother fighting for more time and she got a bigger chunk.  Yes, the judge excused it by saying the boys wanted more time with her but at the same time said she was trying to alienate the boys from their father.

We still have the societal impression that mothers get more response and consideration from court than fathers get.

Final thought, Ex's strategy will be similar to what worked to overwhelm older SD.  SD has aged out of the system, mother wants CS again for the few remaining years the boys are minors.  Yes, it's about the controlling/manipulating the boys but also about the money.  She's unemployed and not getting any CS for SD any more, how could it not be about money?

I think a huge part of the judge letting the boys move there to a 60-40 schedule was seeing what great lengths that the boys had gone through to hurt DH (making those false allegations to CPS).  He told my husband that he was worried that they may try to "burn the house down", and I think that was based on all of those allegations that were clearly lies and ruled out.   The judge could only really give her primary OR give her supervised visits, and the boys are too brainwashed to understand that right now.  Maybe in time they will realize what they put us through.

I am still angry with them--CPS could have removed my children from the home based on their lies, and that is scary. 

The boys told their counselor that they were relieved that their dad was not mad at them when they came to get their stuff.  She told them that a part of him WAS angry, but he wasn't focusing on that part now.  I think because they aren't my kids, and they dragged my kids into this, a bigger part of me is angry, and it is going to take a while to get over that.

The tricky part is that the counselor is saying that they are not going to hear about the truth about what happened for a while (because they are not ready for it), but my 17 year old DD knows the truth very well--am I supposed to tell her to keep quiet?  She is very angry with them; she googled CPS and read about all of these horror stories where she was thinking that she and her sisters may be removed (she didn't tell me about this until after we went to court so I had no idea she was worried).  She was pissed that they were saying things especially that could have gotten my youngest DD (5) removed from the home. 

Hopefully with going to counseling weekly they will start to wake up.  I am pretty sure that BPD mom does not want them to know the truth so not sure how this is going to work.

I guess I am glad that we still have space from them because honestly, I am not ready for them.  I don't like how you cannot use your typical conflict resolution skills with brainwashed kids.

I've been where you are sanemom, (BPDm) filed false charges of physical abuse between me and SD. It was horrific. The first thing the attorney said was that my children might be taken out of my home. I was floored. It was infuriating that she could file something so willy nilly and not even feel the least bit guilty about it knowing it was entirely made up in her head.

I don't think I'm over it still to be frank. What kind of mother does that to another mother?

Ironically she then became my victim. She began to tell therapist and teachers she lived in fear of me. Then approached me on the school yard and said hateful scathing things one inch from my face out of the blue. I turned tail and booked it out of there. She didn't seem to scared, but I was!

I think her guilt at knowing what she had done ate at her and she expected some retaliation, which made her hate me more

I think you and DH should sit those big enough boys down and show them reports, court records and rulings and let the darn chips fall where they may. You guys have pussyfooted around her crazy for so long! And let's face it, she has done much worse and gotten more custody. What are the courts going to do? Who's going to tell them? And who's going to believe her?

I know it's all fantasy life to expose her and say devil may care  but I'm sick of it, you guys are sick of it, I can't think of a reasonable reason not to.

I have kids the same age as your boys and I'm telling you, they aren't innocent. They know they falsified evidence. I would just say, that's too bad you felt you needed to do that to us. It is going to have a high cost for our family financially, emotionally, and relationship wise. Why couldn't you just talk to us about what you wanted? Oh mom said do it this way? Well, how did that work out for everyone?

I know this is difficult. I'm just venting today. I'm mad enough about our own BPDm drama.

I hope you guys are at least being good to yourselves.

Know what?  Peacemaker though I try to be, I agree with this perspective.  Emotionally at least.  The only variation is that information released should be coordinated with the counselor and parenting coordinator.  They're not in elementary school any more.  I'm guessing one's a senior and one's a sophomore.  They're not little kiddies. they're almost adults.  They may only see (1) they have more time with mother and (2) they appeased mother.  Their mother sees (1) my manipulation of the children worked again, (2) my aggressive strategy worked again, (3) I have money coming in again and (4) I beat exH yet again.  All she sees is that she got rewarded for it all and expects to be slick enough to keep skating the edge.

While I think anger and a desire to vindicate yourself is all normal when it comes to this... .

I wouldn't involve the kids to see your side by doing that which we condemn the other side of doing - showing court papers and sharing the financial consequences. Morally, legally and ethically, it's really not OK.

Dealing with Parental Alienation is very complex and it won't help the situation as far as your husband's relationship with his children.

Unless I'm mistaken, the counselor was willing to discuss at least some things with the children, such as the drug-free test results.  I can imagine in a less imperfect world... .

• Did you know I have the test results from DH & SM drug tests?



• Did you hear the results in court or from either of your parents?



• What do you think, would the CPS case and emergency court order have been warranted?



• Hmm, okay, what do you think, if on the other hand they had passed the drug test, which they did, would the CPS case and emergency court order have been warranted?



• So why would you think the CPS case and emergency court order were warranted?  That is, what was the abuse or neglect?



• Why did you think that?  How did you reach that conclusion?



• Are you aware that the court did not change the parenting schedule because of the CPS investigation or the emergency order?



• Do you think there was any added hardship on your father and SM because they had to deal with the CPS investigation and emergency court order?



• What do you think the impact of all this was on your half-siblings?  Does that matter to you?



• How do you think it became so great an issue that at least 4 agencies or groups got involved, CPS, court, counselors and lawyers?



• Why don't you ponder whether there would have been ways to address your concerns without the investigations and emergency court orders?  We can discuss your thoughts at our next session with you and DH.

That's just it... .the counselor does not seem to want to address these things, but she wants the parent facilitator to.  I don't know what the plan is; I just know we are supposed to act like nothing is wrong until we are ready to address it.

And I can't right now.

The counselor said that now that BPD mom got what she wanted, the boys are excited about coming over when it is time.  And that just triggered me big time... .counselor said it is because the boys are relieved the conflict is decreased.  Yay for them, but at what cost to the rest of us?  It is like they are glad they screwed us over or something... .I am sure that is not it, but that is how I feel.

And back to the topic at hand--BPD mom is all cooperative now about the counseling and even sending "warm regards" to the counselor she hated last week.  So maybe she is ok with being contained for now... .it would be nice if it would last, but I guess you take what you can get day by day.  Right now I don't like it because it is like she is all full of herself.

I'd say you're CHARITABLE to give her three months!

"I am not ready for them."

I am so glad to hear you say that... .not because you're not ready, but because you know what you can and cannot handle.

I think this is important in learning how to deal with this. There was a time, when my kids were making accusations about me (the aforementioned phone-throwing incident), that I considered giving up on them. Horrible, right? But what ran through my head is this: "If they're willing to make THIS up, what ELSE will come out of their mouths? Am I going to be a kid-beater, or a molester, next?" As much as it would have killed me to give up, I think it was important to me to come to the realization that there are limits, even for your own children, and that does NOT make you a bad parent. I hope you have come to that realization too. And don't run away from that - from what I can tell, when those kids end up back at your doorstep (and I think that's inevitable), you won't turn them away. That doesn't sound like the way you and your husband are built. But you'll have a better sense for your own boundaries, and when you have that, you can deal with the kids on a far more effective basis.

Agreed, but I also think it'd be appropriate to confront them about lying and making it clear that there could have been consequences to stepmom's relationship with HER children.

At some point my kids started making things up about me too, and as a result BPDm tried to limit me to supervised custody. Because that would have cost money, and I was basically destitute, that would have meant never seeing my children. In fact, i believe that was the entire purpose of the endeavor on BPDm's point.

I never went into the court papers or any of that, but I did make it clear to them that if the court had bought their BS, it might have meant me not being able to spend ANY time with them. Turns out mom never let on that this was a possibility. They never knew what the consequences could have been. How would they? I think it was important for them to know that their stories to whoever was investigating our case needed to be truthful. And it also made it clear that I was not going to tolerate that behavior from them. I might have been a dad in a divorce, but i was still their parent, and this made it clear that I had every right to set boundaries for their behavior.

I guess there is a time and place for everything.  It feels like this philosophical conundrum--to what extent are the alienated kids responsible for their programmed behavior?  I don't think any of us truly know where that line is, but perhaps to let them know at some point what consequences their behavior DID have (I had to deal with my kids' nightmares, anxiety about being moved to a children's home, etc) and could have had would be helpful when the time is right.

The ironic thing is that a couple of years ago, DSD greatly exaggerated a story about her dad and our youngest (who was then not quite 3) that made it sound like abuse, and DSS (then 13) was really mad at her for doing it.  He had no idea the distorted version of the incident was documented in court paperwork, but he had heard her talking about it with their mom.  Well, now he is guilty of the same thing but worse--he told CPS a very distorted version of what happened and CPS was investigating DH for physical abuse of our DD5 (it was ruled out, fortunately, because DD5 didn't even know what the investigators were talking about, and my DD17 told the un-distorted view).

Clearly they know right from wrong, but I guess they cannot always implement when being pressured by BPD mom.  The boys are aware that they are going to have to deal with this incident with their dad soon, and it will not be ignored, so as long as I know they will eventually be told the truth, I guess I can hang tight (and I am assuming that is the plan).  When I say the truth, I am not talking about showing them court documents; rather doctor's notes and the drug tests results that prove that DH is not an addict who skipped rehab (as BPD mom has been telling them).  They (the counselors involved) are saying to show them that right now would also be alienation because they are still at the place they want to believe BPD mom's story.

BPD mom is fine being contained for now--probably still happy that she "won."  She wasn't happy at first (the judge gave her quite a verbal beating), but I guess she has managed to regroup in her head... .the parent facilitator is still needing to set up initial appointments so that containment hasn't started yet.

What has bugged me since yesterday is why and how Ex has been so successful in subverting the minds of her children.  I can understand how it happened with SD, she had more time with SD and she overwhelmed her over time to the point of manufacturing memories of imagined child abuse.  Fortunately the experts knew otherwise.  But the boys were mostly raised by DH.  How, after all this time, was she able to subvert them and set up an incident now.  I get it that with SD aged out of court and child support realm earlier this year that now she has shifted focus to the boys, now teens.  But how could she have gotten to them so quickly and thoroughly?  She must be extraordinarily manipulative and convincing.

I woke up thinking she must be co-morbid with Histrionic PD.  But those traits didn't quite match.  (Though Theodore Millon identified six subtypes of histrionic personality disorder, among them Disingenuous, an antisocial trait: Underhanded, double-dealing, scheming, contriving, plotting, crafty, false-hearted; egocentric, insincere, deceitful, calculating, guileful.)  So I must admit I'm not good at figuring this out.

So I'm thinking perhaps she's co-morbid with Antisocial PD?  That one can apply to con men (and women) - slick manipulators who have little or no remorse.  She's somehow managed to derail the minds and sensibilities all three of her children to the extent that they've become her duped enablers.  Even with our variety of difficult cases, this case stands out to me.

I can tell you what the boys' counselor finally discovered after working with the boys for years... .she had no idea what was going on either, how BPD mom managed to manipulate so easily, until she saw it in her own office.  Then it all made sense to her.  Here is a paraphrase of what she wrote me:

I have seen BPD mom at work now, and I know why it is so easy to get sucked into feeling like she is "good" when she is really being "bad." I feel it when I meet with her too. She appears so genuine, and so sincere, that it really takes someone who is psychologically savvy to see the subtleties of what is going on... .She has trained the kids to look for things at your house that are problems and then report back to her. So, then she gets to be empathetic to them, and caring, and then work to protect them. This is the main way the kids have been able to engage her in caring for them. 

Basically they are so mom-deprived because she left when they were so young that this is the main way they've learned to get her attention over the years.  How is that for messed up?

The two most important points are this:

1) While she's feeling all full of herself that she won, take DreamGirl's advice and let her do some of the parental heavy lifting. You need a break. A break in s being offered. Take it! Doesn't matter how it happened. Just spend some time focusing on your DH and your kids. This is likely to be the closest thing to a break that you will get. Which brings me to point #2, which is this) Eventually she is going to implode. Hope for the best all you want, but she's a mentally ill parent. She won't be able to keep it up and the level of conflict will shoot back up and be all consuming all over again.

As for containment, it does really help. But only for the purposes of documentation prior to going back to court. Having half a dozen professional eyes on may not change her behavior one bit. It didn't for my skids BPDmom. She simply could not do what she was supposed to do because compromising or doing something someone else wanted made her feel engulfed, suffocated, and like she didn't exist. But having all those professionals come to court and say she simply couldn't do what she was told to do is what got my DH custody. Now she is living the good life with her boyfriend and doesn't want them back. So she hardly ever sees them, uses the mandated phone calls to grill them for information and mess with their heads and we get no break. So I'm raising them full time with their dad with every responsibility of a full time mom, except if she so much breaths in their direction they'll throw me under the bus for her without a second thought. (Which goes back to why it's good to take a break while you have the option.)

That is soo sad  :'( :'( :'( and it also does make sense.

Parental Alienation creates so much conflicting emotions between those it happens to and their kids... .one minute your furious, then confused, then hurt, then sympathetic, then understanding, then feel sorry for the kids who are being manipulated... .then right back to furious again!  It's exhausting.

Even what the therapist describes causes conflicting feelings... .Sad that the boys are so desperate for a relationship with their mom and infuriating that they didn't care who they hurt in pursuit of that relationship, and sad that their mother would use and manipulate them like this and yet these kids played their part as well.    

I think at this point you and DH should just watch and wait, the kids think they won their mom back but haven't yet realized what they have lost and that they really won the "booby prize".  Their mom thinks she won the kids (and the money that comes with them) but has no idea of the demands that come with it and the stress it will put her under.  I don't know when, but if your situation is anything like mine the house of cards will fall down around mom and the kids... .probably sooner rather than later.

Panda39

While I agree that we have to be very careful to not undermine or alienate the children while defending ourselves. I think there is a distinction between saying "your mom made you do this" and "you said these things about us, and these things were untrue and you knew it, that's not ever going to be ok, or the right thing to do for any reason."

I say expose the truth, and expose the untruths that were told, and let them own the consequences. If THEY point the finger at mom that's a great opportunity to teach them that it is not right to lie for anyone. And if mom or anyone is asking you to lie, what can be learned from that? If you are not in the wrong you don't need to ask people to, lie for you.

It's shedding light on the manipulation without blatantly tossing mom under a bus.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that these boys are more than old enough to deal with these concepts.

NOPE, I beg you, lie to me. 

When I read your posts I want to run away from home. lol

It reads like my future and I just know it's going to end up the same way here. 

I have no idea why I'm doing this anymore. My SD treats me like her captor. BPDm just quit her T, because she "fine". And I'm doing ALL the heavy lifting.  :'(

So the boys jump through the hoops to get a relationship reward with mother?

Wikipedia references Classical Conditioning - example: Pavlov's dogs, etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning)

As for her imploding, I don't think she'd ever let them go, she didn't with older SD.  I guess we'll have to wait and see whether the court takes action on any new incidents.  A lot depends on how strict the court is on misconduct and where it sets the bar for compliance or actionable noncompliance.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to make it sound so bleak. Deep down the kids know who they can count on and who they can't. But you can't expect a kid to be able to deal with the reality that they can't count on their mom. I keep hearing that the reward comes when they grow up and realize everything you did for them.

I keep holding on to my own horrible experience as an alienated child. It was very dangerous for me to want to have anything to do with my dad. My mom would literally become enraged and physically violent when I'd come home from visits with my dad because she would stop trusting me. So I wrote my dad off, told him I wanted nothing to do with him, and told every court professional that he was horrible, I was angry at him, and I wanted nothing to do with him. Yet every other weekend, he'd drive two hours to where we lived, demand to hear directly from us that we didn't want to see him, and then drive two hours home, often alone. Often having just the memory of me coming to the door long enough to tell him to "go away". This started when I was nine. Then one weekend when I was twelve and I decided to go for a visit with him things changed. I was walking down the steps to go home at the end of the weekend and I decided I didn't want to. I was in a place where I wasn't getting hit, wasn't getting screamed at and called names, had food and clean clothes, and adults were actually awake during the day. I decided the reason things were so bad at my mom's was because I was too much work and she'd be doing better if I wasn't there. So I told my dad I didn't want to go back. Laws were different back then,particularly regarding kids aged 12 and over. So I didn't end up having to go back. Shortly after that, the full weight of what I'd endured finally hit me and I refused to even see my mom unless there was a third party present. In the end my relationship with her was so utterly destroyed that there was nothing left worth saving. I'm NC but polite if she's at a wedding or other major family function. I talk to my dad on the phone about three times a week and have for years and we visit each other as often as possible since I live out of state.

In the one conversation we have ever had about the alienation and the way I treated him, all I said was, "Good on you for not taking me seriously."

Good on us for not taking our skids behaviors seriously.   

Nope,

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

Panda39

The court basically said she has to keep taking the boys to counseling and has to keep using the parent facilitator (and do what the facilitator says), and if the boys do not have a good relationship with DH, it is "100% on BM" and we can take her back to court anytime and she will lose them.  

I am hoping the judge meant what he said.

Right now, our attorney said that although her lawyer was supposed to draft the order, he clearly is not in any hurry to do so (probably not getting paid) so our lawyer is going to write up a partial order to get the professionals officially appointed.

And I just found out today that she told the boys' counselor that she doesn't have to send the boys to DH this Thursday since the order hasn't been written up yet.  WHAT?  Then if we go by the order that HAS been written up, we should have the boys all but two weekends a month.  I don't get what she is thinking.

I have a feeling she is not paying her attorney, which means he will be in no hurry to draft an order, but we don't want to foot the bill for that when she is supposed to (she was the movant on the TRO that started the hearing).  

I have no idea what we will do if she starts playing that game... .

Can you contact the mediator?

Do you have a L? Last month we were in court and and she was representing herself. She got the email address of the judge. Yes, it was priceless. She couldn't resist, and sent some crazy stuff to him. :)

Anyway, you might be able to get a hold of someone in the court, his clerk ? to clarify for her immediately.

I would at the very least get a copy of the transcript on order now in case you need it to show someone  to help you get your time.

Never ceases to amaze me what lengths they will go to to make drama.

Maybe the boys are relieved that the pressure has been taken off of them. If mum was guilting them into doing what they did then maybe they feel that this is the end of it. Someone else has made a decision for them so they have to do that which means they wont upset mum as they have no choice.

As for mum feeling she has won I can understand how it would get to you. What I would say is she is being watched and any slip ups are going to have consequences. I played the waiting game and my sons have been living with me for nearly six months now and haven't spoken to their mum since they left her. I can be patient my ex wife cant and always messes up.

Has she said this to you and DH?  Right now it's a threat.  If the kids don't show up Thursday try and get her reason for not sending the kids on an email  (documentation) and counter with with what you said above.  She can't have it both ways... .or she can and you go right back to court. 

Doesn't sound like she got the message in court. (I don't think any of us are surprised  )

Hang in there,

Panda39

Was that emergency order dismissed?  Is there paperwork about that?  Then her claiming she doesn't return the children without a new order cannot fall back to the emergency order.  That's how I (not a lawyer) see it.

Panda is right, at this point it's only a threat or expressed contemplation.  It's not actionable until it happens.  If it does, will DH and his lawyer be prepared?  If they go to court and say, "Last month Ex did this and that... ." the court won't see it as important as if Ex had just done it.  Well, unless they want to accumulate multiple infractions?

More or less, courts go by technicalities.  Whether that applies in this case at this time, who knows.  But this would appear to be her way to obstruct father yet again.  I would email/text her to follow what was agreed in court.  I wouldn't threaten court or whatever.  State the case simply and let her strut her gloat/entitlement stuff as she wishes.  Then if she fails to return the children as agreed in court, would your lawyer file for emergency court action to enforce his parenting time?  Frankly, though the judge is hoping a new schedule will resolve everything, if he hears nothing he will assume it's working.  It's up to DH and his lawyer to inform the court by the proper means.  Yes, a parenting coordinator was decided upon but if one hasn't been assigned yet, I don't think DH has to wait for however long before one is assigned, they should let the court know that ALREADY there is obstruction.  (IMO)

I agree, getting a transcript of the evidence, statements and decisions that were put on record is important.  She will try to twist everything to her favor and interpretation if she feels she can get away with it.  My county allowed me the option to get a download of the verbal record and/or use a transcription agency to write it up.  To save money, I made my own unofficial transcriptions of the important passages.  Having that in hand allowed me to be more confident in my handling issues thereafter.

Hmm... .wait a moment.  This puzzles me... .Ex blocked access for a month, CPS and court decided there was no basis BUT DH gets alternate weekends starting not the next weekend but the following weekend?  That doesn't make sense.  Blocked for a month, why didn't he get immediate time or at least the next weekend?  On the other hand, I shouldn't be surprised.  I know my court firmly believed in granting then-stbEx retroactive child support going back 2 months to when I had filed but at the same time failed to give me makeup time after being blocked for 3 months.

Court was on a Friday, and he was supposed to get the boys the following Thursday, but she is telling the boys that they aren't going to see their dad on a Thursday until the order is signed.  He is supposed to get them again this Thursday... .it is a mess.  Her attorney isn't returning calls or emails.  I think we need to get her in front of a judge ASAP--in less than a week she is already not doing what the judge said.

Our attorney is swamped this week, but I hope he can think of some sort of strategy.  She doesn't care what the order says--the rules don't apply to her, and she has had 5 years of a GAL empowering her (who is now not on the case).

She is reinterpreting to her favor, to be expected.  Maybe she can't oppose the judge's order or stated instructions but she is claiming she doesn't have to comply until there's an written order.  And of course her lawyer isn't responding to queries.

Court instructions:

• She gets 60% and child support



• Father's time with children begins on the next Thursday



• Father brings children on alternate counselor sessions



• Written order to follow

Mother of course is sabotaging by delaying the judges instructions and claiming children don't return until the new order is written and ordered by court.

Question, who is to write the order?  The judge?  The other lawyer?  DH's lawyer?  Where's the delay?

I asked this before, what order is in effect right now?  The temp ex parte one she filed?  The judge's instructions?  The longstanding order with Father having majority time?

I'm not a lawyer but... .Could DH's lawyer file paperwork that states since Ex isn't complying with the judges instructions (this is where you need to quote judge's instructions from the recordings or transcripts and in contrast list that she blocked two Thursdays already and probably by that time also one of father's sessions with boys and counselor) then ask that meanwhile the court confirm a return to the preexisting/current order where boys lived primarily with father?

This way the judge is officially notified mother has been obstructive to the court's instructions and DH's attorney has a solution.  From what I've read, the 6 month threshold is to determine boys' relationship with father.  This is immediate obstruction of (at least the intent of) the judge's instructions.

Me?  That 70% success balloon has a huge leak.  And it didn't take 6 months either.  Even if the judge is reluctant to stir the pot more at this time, it's more documentation of her obstructing father by continuing to block his parenting time.  (And 15/17 year old boys not willing to vist without mother's unilateral approval.)

<peeved>

I'm of a mind to take oldest son aside, once an adult (months away), and show him the claims, allegations, etc mother has made over the years.  And the outrageous expense of legal costs over the years that could have been better used toward more productive family activities or college planning.  I don't know if that's proper but if he's aged out of supervision by the court it might not have too many repercussions.  Only risk is what court might think if/when younger son hears things thirdhand.

</peeved>

Her attorney is supposed to be writing the order (she is the movant since she filed the TRO against us "drug abusing" people... .lol), but I am guessing he is in no hurry to write it up because I suspect he is not getting paid by her.

Our attorney requested a brief hearing for the judge to "grant relief"--whatever that means.  The problem is it won't be until next week (which would be two Thursdays blocked).  Of course, maybe if she hears about the hearing, she will let them come on Thursday.

I am sure the judge will blow a gasket when he hears about this, though.  The therapist can say that the boys were told that they aren't seeing their dad until the order is signed... .after the judge was so emphatic that she give him time with the boys.  Crazy.

Which is why you and DH don't tell the Ex, the boys or even the counselor that you're filing for relief from the court.  Let Ex run rampant.  Let her continue sabotaging herself.  Do no more than ask for the expected visits or time.  Let's hope the lawyer puts some teeth into his request for relief.  Rather than just dad get to see boys, he ought to ask that pre-existing order for dad's majority time be resumed, that the current pending change be 'reconsidered' by the court and perhaps even ask for Decision Making concerning all issues including Parenting arrangements.  (In other words, no more groveling to Ex.)

Why the multiple options sought?  To give the judge lots of options.  I get the feeling that judges won't change (or go beyond) the status quo unless it is requested or sought.  For example, if DH's lawyer only asks for relief to get to see sons, that may be all he gets.  If the motion is forward looking, quotes judge from transcripts that mother is alienating father and also includes additional ways to limit Ex's future misbehaviors, then the judge may decide to use some or all of them.

Yes, I'm a bit strong in my thoughts and words, fingertips on fire, but by now everyone, including myself, should be losing patience with Obstructive Ex.

Our attorney had to let BPD mom's attorney know that we were filing for a hearing next week (have to show that you tried before you get the hearing time).  BPD mom's attorney is on vacation this week, but he was not answering the court appointed therapist last week about mom's shenanigans.  However, suddenly the attorney's assistant contacted BPD mom and lo and behold, BPD mom is now saying that she did not understand what "expanded standard" meant and is acting like she will cooperate.

I am quite certain without her attorney being told of a hearing, she would have kept going, but she plays the ditz so well.

Just wanted to update you:

1.  With the threat of court, she reluctantly gave up her weekend before the Thanksgiving break and just wasn't sure how she would make up that time with the boys... .yes, she wrote that.  She was upset that DH didn't take his time the previous week (her attorney later said DH should have picked them up from school if he wanted them; um--my DD drives to school and they typically go home with her).

2.  The boys have now seen their non-drug addicted dad for two weekends.  DSS15 is starting to realize that the "parenting islands" concept will help his lack of trust so he won't be confused by alternate perspectives.  He also seemed to be starting to realize that his mom got him all worked up about his dad's situation without need.

3.  BPD mom already has stopped cooperating with counseling--canceled last appt 10 minutes before and won't sign the counselor's paperwork.  Her lawyer threatened to sue the counselor.

Dss15 was saying it helped him to see his dad to realize he was really ok; counselor pointed out that dad was trying to see them, but they refused contact.

I really want DSS to get to the angry stage of how he was duped... .then I will know he gets it.  I know he will always love his mom, and I m good with that; I just want him to really get how she did this so he can be more aware next time she tries.

Well it didn't take very long for the ex to show her true colours, did it, with regard to stopping the visits with the counsellor? As for the lawyer threatening to sue, threats are just an empty parcel of words. Given that attendance at the counsellor is court ordered, this is not helping her situation at all.

I am glad that DSS15 is starting to see a more accurate picture of the situation. Hopefully you can all build on that.

Good luck with everything.

All the BPD has to do is threaten suing most therapist and they pucker up like a dried out prune. Our T is reminding us monthly that she's worried about BPDm suing, and has told us horror stories of how BPD's have ruined the careers of many T's she knows. It makes me 

They get so much traction from their threats it's no wonder they continue them, it works! The rest of us are all still stuck trying to use our manners while engaged in a knife fight.

I so wish you could just tell those boys their mom is trying to ruin their relationship with DH and you out of spite because she is so miserable herself. It's funny but I always say " the truth just rings true" there is something in a lie that doesn't go in our ears or mind as easily as the truth. Maybe you could drop that mental tidbit in their ear ( not specifically talking about the mother, just in general life) and see if it doesn't resonate with them over time.

If BPDm isn't taking boys to counseling, then can you call counselor and take them on your time?

The counselor arranged it so that DH and BPD alternate weeks so DH has taken them twice... .BPD mom has next week so we will see if she does it.  Really, she's only missed once, but we haven't even gotten the order finalized yet.  The counselor is just nervous because BPD mom hasn't signed the forms, and she has asked her to for 2 months.  I guess we will just add that she is required to sign them to the court order draft (our attorney ended up writing it).

I have to say it was VERY validating to read:

Parental Alienation

   THE COURT makes a JUDICIAL FINDING that BPD mom has alienated the children subject of this suit against Sanemom's DH  The following ORDERS are found to be in the best interest of the children.

Parenting Facilitator

IT IS ORDERED that Ms. J is appointed as parenting facilitator.  The Court finds that this case is a high-conflict case. 

That is very " validating"! Lol it's nice when the court actually validates us! We spend so much time validating everyone around us, we forget that we need it too.

My fantasy judgement says "until BPDm grows up and starts acting like a  parent instead of a child, including being able and willing to support herself, she needs to move back home with her parents and no tv until her attitude improves"  lol

It has often been said here that our lawyer have to be the ones to write up the order from note or transcripts.  The other lawyer is almost surely going to water down or even subtly twist what was stated by the judge or agreed to in the court room.  You already found out about another reason, the other lawyer's delays.

Plus in my experience, they don't want to pay to have the orders written, even when it's their motion.

Also, they can then say that our attorneys wrote it wrong in our favor and they can't fix it, the poor victims that they are. 

They seem to all have the same play book. Where do we get a copy?

And she is cancelling the boys' therapy appointment again today... .so she has yet to take them since court and was not taking them when the judge ordered it the first time.

Our attorney sent the drafted order... .I am certain we will need a motion to enter and then we can get the counselor to talk with the judge about her refusal to cooperate already.

I am just wondering if BPD mom is consciously concerned about the boys going to counseling and finding out the truth about what happened?  Is that why she has been blocking counseling (first for DSD and now for the boys) for years?  Or is it something else?

At least we get to take them twice a month, but still... .

My empathetic view.

Fear.

As a mama, when I've taken my kids to counseling, I'm so worried that I've failed them as a mama. It scares me that I've completely screwed them up. I'm afraid of being told I'm a terrible mom.

I have the skill set to know that them going is more important then having to deal with my fear.

A pwBPD does not have the best skills when it comes to regulation of such a hard emotion. So avoiding the situation is a very easy route to take.

That's my best guess.  :) 

That is probably a very good guess, DG.  The judge has already told her as much--it is in the new court paperwork that she is alienating the kids (after she testified for an hour that she has not alienated them at all so clearly she doesn't understand).  What, for most families, would have been a brief stay in the hospital to change meds and to get blood pressure lowered turned into a huge CPS investigation for drugs and a motion to modify due to BPD mom's histrionics and lies and how she is so able to get the kids riled up.  At least one of the kids is starting to see how that was a hoax.

Not sure where you are located, but here in ca, if the order is broken, like not attending court ordered therapy. You must file some "incident report" which can be done on the phone with the police so that it gets turned to the court. If you don't document it that way, then it may get swept under the rug. ( BPDm gets away with so much, she's prob counting on it)

I would at the very least, send group email to attorneys, therapist, BPDm, and state:

" I have been made aware that BPDm has now failed to bring boys to two court ordered therapy sessions in two weeks. I would like some reasonable explanation or a solution to rectify this noncompliance. If it is necessary for me or ms.sanemom to bring the boys to the court ordered therapy every week, then I will make the arrangements with therapist, but it was my understanding that the judge felt that BPDm and mr.sanemom should alternate bringing the boys to see therapist for balance. If there is something I am missing in this situation, now is the time to address it, I am keeping an open mind. If I don't hear back fromBODm or her attorney by next week,I will have to ask the court to make other arrangements so that the boys get the therapy they require."

I think you have been very fair with BPDm considering what she has done, and that she is thumbing her nose at the therapy is over the line (in my opinion).

Dream girl, I wish I could see the BPDm in our case like you do, but for some of us BPDm isn't a worried grown up with a child's mentality. Some of the BPD's we deal with like the one I deal with and I'm thinking the one that sanemom deals with is a much more malicious and conniving person.

BPDm in my case is a very mean, vindictive and hateful person. She actively seeks out and does things that hurt me, my family and my SD, and does not miss a single opportunity to do so.

Once you have lived under that kind of terrorism you begin to be jaded and self protective. I always appreciate your alternative view of how the mentally ill person is feeling and how much compassion you have for your SD's mom. But if you had to watch your SD ( or SS) be abused mentally, physically, and emotionally to the degree that some of us here do, you would understand our staunch, and yes at times hostile attitude toward the person who is doing so, for whatever reason.

At the very least, there are many occasions that justify holding the line, or boundary for the greater good.

I definitely think our BPDmom has some antisocial traits, but I think the reason she doesn't bring the boys to therapy is that she believes the therapist is judging her (the therapist is the one who saw her alienating the kids and testified to it in court) so what DG says there rings true.

The order isn't signed yet so I think we can bring up her noncompliance with the counselor when we go in front of the judge to have the order entered (bc I know that she will not just sign it that easily).

At the same time, I felt that this CPS mess was fueled by her conniving maliciousness... .the phrase seen repeatedly in her texts and emails to DH was, "I don't want to hurt you", and I feel that is EXACTLY what she wanted to do.  She works for CPS... .she knew EXACTLY what buttons to push and how they act around here.  I could have temporarily lost my kids, and she knew that.  I could have lost my ability to work in my career, and she knew that.  Although she is the one who left DH and remarried, she is mad that DH moved on and is happy.

 
I appreciate that there's a scale and you may not think I understand. I am lucky in that she's been neutralized for the most part.

I've also spent a lot of effort, time, and money to find a certain kind of medium. I've been to court. I've been falsely accused in court documents. My husband AND my son as well. The most difficult time was when she was married to a police officer... .harassment charges and a no contact order.

I could keep going.

My approach is different. I don't use catastrophic language like terrorism and abuse.  I prefer to understand her and accept that she's difficult. I don't advocate court when the solution lies in compromise. I've also watched my husband unjustly treated by a court system that still has bias. I have hard boundaries too, I just don't express them harshly. I learned how to communicate effectively with her. I humanize her because she's not a monster. It took a lot for me to get here, but it works for me. Not right or wrong, just right for me.

But don't think I don't know the effects that having a borderline soul in your life means, because I do.

Well, you figured that she'd probably revert back to type at some point.  Even though the judge was somewhat hopeful, you had that little voice in the back of your head saying, ":)on't count those eggs as chickens quite yet... ."

My five second thought is whether her non-compliance now affects the order that hasn't even been written yet?  On the other hand, was everyone told to comply with the court instructions while the written order was slowly being written?  I worry that she will slip by on a technicality that while the judge said what to do, there isn't a written order yet?  How frustrating for the judge not to put anything in writing.  I've heard some judges do that, expecting some level of working together.  Or... .maybe he wants to see what happens... .cooperation or non-compliance?

From what I understand about how the orders work until they get written down and signed, is that the judge speaks them in open court, he basically says the orders out loud and the attorneys are to get the transcripts write them out and get them signed, but until that time, they are the orders still, so if he said bring the boys to therapy, he meant for them to go to therapy right away. If she is not obeying them already, she IS in fact breaking the order. It may not be a law, but it is not to be taken as a suggestion either.

You could file a motion, to say "hey, judge she is already skirting the order two weeks in, any ideas about how to get her to comply?"

He may just look at the whole thing and throw the book at her, meaning she could get ordered into some classes for people that can't obey orders, he could give you more time, let you take boys to all therapy or most likely give her some financial penalty (we can hope

^^That's what I understand, too.  I am sure it will take time for her to even consider signing the order, and I am guessing she won't.

She apparently is very upset that the judge made a ruling that she is doing parental alienation and she doesn't see how... .she did end up going to one of the sessions for one DSS, and she took up his appointment last week flipping out about the ruling, but at least she came in.  BPD mom claims to have read up on PA (she probably did some googling) and doesn't think she does any of it.  I think the therapist is going to explain to the boys why the judge decided that (bc mom has told them that), and it will be based on their behaviors--refusing to talk with their dad, refusing therapy, and reporting things to CPS that were ruled out as untrue.  They don't even know that CPS ruled it all out yet.  I bet their mom has told them otherwise.

She is also assuming that we will be going back to court in 6 months--the judge said that if she didn't get her act together and support a relationship with the boys and their dad that we COULD go back to court.  Not sure if she doesn't understand OR if she just isn't planning on getting her act together... .lol.

This week we may get to talk about what happened finally with the boys... .I am going to ask the boys what happened from their perspective in the counselor's office.  Sunday night they understood that DH had an adverse medical reaction and he would be home on Monday; they were happy to see him in the hospital; by Monday they were demanding that he go to some kind of rehab for 90 days and were refusing to talk with him.  

DSS15 apparently has noticed that I am "being cold" (I think I have been cordial but distant), and he has no clue why.  He really doesn't get that he put my kids at risk due to his lying, and I am sorry, my Mama Bear doesn't trust him anymore.  I have a very difficult time being around either one of them.  The therapist wants to discuss how to regain trust... .not sure how we can at this point.

I've been there. It's rough. Sometimes I give myself permission to "fantasize" about not doing anything for SD or BPDm ever again. To "just stop caring", when I'm flooded with feelings about this mess I just check out for a bit. It's really all we can do. I eventually re-engage and come out of it, but I grow wearier after each battle.

I hear it all the time from everyone here and elsewhere about "self care" and the importance of doing things for bravhart once in awhile. I'll start if you will

I feel like my self-care is stepping away from the boys and taking care of my kids, and I seem to get "in trouble" for that, too.  Fortunately, not this time--the boys' counselor seems to understand why I can't stand to breathe their air after this mess.  I am trying to be happy about Christmas and not get too much bah-humbug about it (a bit difficult when money is this tight because of their BS). 

BPD mom claimed she hadn't seen the drafted order before she went in to see the counselor, but I really doubt that is true--I think she saw the PA part and got upset about it, and that is why she was all up in arms with the counselor.  Otherwise, I don't think she would be thinking about it (she would probably be pretending it didn't happen). 

BPD mom did not pay the counselor still--claimed that DH hasn't paid child support yet so she can't (gee--she hadn't paid child support in years and we still managed to pay the counselor).  The counselor is just a copay--wait until she gets the bill for the parent facilitator. 

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