BPDFamily.com

I'm not really sure where to put this. 

My wife asked me to get accident/life insurance for the family on 11-19-15.  I'm just now getting over the shock of that because my wife also told my son this morning something like ":)addy’s going to a different church than Mommy" when I told my wife that I wanted to visit a church we used to go to today. 

I'm not sure what to think.  I plan on confronting her and asking her why exactly we need that. 

 

Aside from anything else, having life insurance as replacement income is a good idea for anybody and part of a sound financial plan. When you say "for the family," however, do you think she meant all of you? She doesn't work, and kids don't need life insurance since they aren't income sources. Does it worry you given her erratic behaviors, like if she wants it on herself that she may be planning something?

I have policies on the kids through work, $10k each, enough to cover funeral expenses, which is the purpose, because that's the maximum they offer.

Given her behavior it's very concerning to me.  I think she wants it mostly for the family in the event I die

While this may be triggered by her BPD-like fears off loss, it's otherwise pretty normal. I used to assure my Ex that she'd be ok given just my Social Security death benefits (for the kids). I don't know your financial situation, but you could look into it with AAA or your car insurance company. A small policy may not be that much. If you can tell her in a validating way, that you'll look into it, that may buy you some time.

I didn't tell her no.  I just let her know I understood she wants life insurance and that maybe I would look into it soon.  I plan on looking it up tomorrow.  It had really bothered me for couple days and it's still on my mind now and then.  I hope she's not planning on anything crazy.

 

 

If it's just you then, do you fear for your safety? What you said does buy you some time.

If you are heading into divorce or pondering doing so, get legal advice.  Could it be that if you get life insurance now before starting a divorce that a divorce court may rule that you need to continue with such life insurance policies?  Would you keep flexibility to select and reselect the beneficiary?  If you died, would you want a lump sum going directly to a disordered parent who might splurge and not use the money sparingly for the children and stretch it out as long as possible?

I have term insurance until my child is an adult and a little beyond.  The beneficiary is not my Ex, it is a trust.  A trust is needed because a minor can't be a direct beneficiary where I live.  There are no assets at this time so there is no trust now.  In the name section of the beneficiary form I wrote "in trust for {child} pursuant to will dated xx/xx/xxxx". My will names the trustee and a couple alternate trustees.  None are my Ex.

That is the way my ex and I handled it also - and my ex is not disordered. It's just a really practical way of handling life insurance and estate proceeds.

I suppose that I do.  Not to the point where I will flee her right now though.  It's not an overwhelming or paralyzing fear.  I suppose I just kind of wonder and think about it though.  I don't know how else to describe it.     

I think it's better not to get the insurance.  My wife may have a legal right to be a beneficiary whether I list her or not.   This whole thing still really creeps me out.   

It's really common for both spouses to feel afraid when the relationship is unstable, whether there is BPD or not. Is your wife diagnosed BPD? Does she have any other mental illness? Is she suicidal at all, and projecting those thoughts on you?

I felt very afraid toward the end of my marriage and imagined the worse. It's good to listen to your gut. It's also good to pay attention to patterns -- the Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker made me realize how smart my intuition is, how good we are at knowing when there is real danger. I used that wisdom to take care of myself and put some safety plans in place.

Has your wife ever been violent toward you? Or toward herself?

Yes she has thrown things at me, around the kitchen, and on the floor in the past and has threatened suicide on multiple occasions.  She closed the bathroom door and tied two towels together and made it look like she would kill herself.  She hasn't done any of those things in a couple months but still this stuff in the back of my mind.     

It's hard to know. My gut sense, even when things were at the peak of psychosis, is that my ex was more likely to take his own life than mine. That didn't stop him from making threats.

I just think when the relationship is in the midst of crashing, emotions on both sides tend to escalate. The key is to be safe while at the same time try to minimize conflict. It's hard.

Sorry , I missed that part of the post.  She is not diagnosed BPD at this time.  The therapist she saw said because she responded to consequences (when my wife threatened suicide I called 911 from work and met the policeman at home.  After that she reduced her suicide talk not stopped it) she thinks that my wife doesn't have it.  However, my wife never really responded to her therapy.  According to the therapist my wife just stayed silent when the therapist challenged my wife's thoughts.  That therapist wants me to take her to a psychiatrist.  My wife is willing to go to that only because I said I will definitely divorce her if she doesn't.  Otherwise she won't go. 

She was diagnosed with post partum depression.  It's been almost 3 & 1/2 years since she had a baby.   

When I comment on the likelihood of a person's recovery - I am not a therapist, counselor or lawyer - I always place at the top of my list of factors this item:  Will the person let go the Denial and really work to address Issues and Behaviors?  You can't do it for the person, the person can't even do it for you or the marriage, the person has to want to do it for himself or herself in order for improvements, if any, to last.

If she's going to sessions reluctantly just to avoid a divorce, it's hard to imagine real success.


For a while I thought my ex had PPD too.  It started after our son's birth and continued until she stopped nursing 14 months later.  I hoped, "Aha! Now it will be better."  Sadly, it didn't last.  Two months later she got triggered by a friend, called her a 'traitor', and relapsed.  She never improved after that, her Paranoid PD traits kicked in and it was downhill after that.  We separated when our son was about three and a half years old.  High conflict divorce, high conflict afterward.

I don't know what it is about the preschooler ages, it's likely to worsen as the child gets older and seeks normal increased independence.  You or she can't blame it on PPD, IMO.  You better have a plan in place, several additional backup plans and be documenting as well.  If she has entitlement as a mother (Mother of the Year) then you're in for a rough roller coaster ride.  Maybe the sessions will help limit the discord and conflict, maybe not, but at least it is invaluable as historical documentation if needed later for a Custody Evaluation.

Is your wife is willing to see a psychiatrist, perhaps suggest that she undergoes the MMPI-2. This is considered an "objective" diagnostic evaluation, as opposed to talk therapy, a more subjective form of evaluation.

I have a good T who has been practicing for 30+ years and she has had BPD clients who fooled her. Only twice has she been sued, and both times were BPD clients that were discovered to be BPD in custody evaluations involving the MMPI-2. It is possible to fake answers on this test, however the result can come out "results suggest that respondent was presenting falsely." So there is some risk you won't get a conclusive diagnosis that way, however you will establish that she is not considered credible.

Taking a diagnostic test can be a very anxiety-inducing thing whether you are BPD or not. It's important to keep in mind that she may feel like the test will expose the deep loathing and shame she feels, and act out in response.

It's hard because she'll say that she doesn't want to do worst things that she did.  However, she won't admit to the lying and manipulation she still does now.  It's hard for me to get recognize right away when she's doing that so she gets away with it.  I 'm trying to work on detecting that.  She still seems to think the kids should be able to choose which church they go to but she's really trying to choose the church she wants to go to.  She doesn't seem want to be around people who really challenge her.

I don't blame it on PPD.  It's only a documented diagnosis that she has.  I do think that there is something majorly wrong with this woman that she doesn't want to deal with honestly.  I do think if a person won't deal with their core issues that they ultimately won't have success in sublimating their behaviors even with cognitive-behavior therapy which this therapist tried and failed.  It gets confusing when I have a therapist tell me that even though she failed that the next one may get a hold of my wife.  It tends to give me false hope.

I agree that I need to continue getting in better position.  I've been trying to get a hold of a psychiatrist in the Vancouver/Portland area with no luck so far. 

Right now my plan to get the most documentation and evaluations that I can on her.  If she throws things at me again I'll call 911 and ask the policeman to document the incident.  I do have people that could watch my kids in the event of a dual arrest.  I also have the dissolution papers nearly filled out and safe in my work locker where she can't get them.

I'll have more in another post but I gotta go for now.

Thank you for your words.  They are of huge help to me.   

     

This is great advice.  I will request the MMPI-2 whenever I can get a hold of a psychiatrist.  I also appreciate your warning about how she may react to the test.  I wouldn't have thought of that on my own and can prepare a response beforehand now that I know what to expect from her.   

One thing I learned is that not all psychiatrists are trained in how to administer the MMPI-2. I'm not sure if you have to find a forensic psychiatrist? Or maybe just one who is trained to administer it?

Would it work on someone who has perhaps a grade school level English proficiency? My wife isn't the greatest English reader or speaker but isn't terrible either.  It may take her awhile to understand a complex question.

I suppose another option is to just turn the papers in to dissolve the marriage, take a chance on letting her having custody to start, and wait for her to mess up.  

I suppose I'm asking myself the question if the therapy didn't work, then why would going to a psychiatrist do anything? 

This is not a strategy that tends to work for our cases. Whatever you arrange in a so-called temporary consent order or temporary custody order can become unbelievably difficult to change. The courts call it "substantial change in circumstances" or something vague like that. Judges do not like to make decisions about family matters, as odd as that sounds. There has been a massive shift toward setting things up so that parents agree to custody arrangements, under the belief that if the parents agree, then they must want that arrangement, therefore it's best for the kids and they will follow it, and stay out of court.

People with BPD lack a stable sense of self, and splitting makes it so that one moment they see the issue one way, the next moment or day, they see it opposite. Impulsivity makes it difficult to follow the court orders, and you are left to enforce the compliance.

The best strategy for many of us (and by best I do not mean easy) is to ask for what you know is best for the kids. Chances are low you will get exactly what you want, but courts tend to compromise so if you aim low, you will get something even lower than that because they will be trying to find the middle ground between your request and what your wife asks for. And she will most likely make an unreasonable demand in which she gets everything and you get nothing.

The purpose of getting a psyche eval is to establish what you are working with. If she is compliant now, and agrees to get an evaluation, it's possible that you can use that in court as evidence for you getting primary custody. Remember that custody is split into physical, legal, and visitation. Primary custody is like having an advantage. Legal custody means you are the decision maker on major medical and educational decisions -- this can be huge. You cannot imagine the conflict that goes on when your ex spouse denies basic medical services or educational help and you have no legal leg to navigate. It's incredibly painful to stand by and feel absolutely impotent as your child's life slowly falls apart.

And then there is visitation. This might be where you start off with 50/50 time. So you would ask for primary custody, and joint legal with decision making or tie breaker status. Then perhaps you ask for 70/30 to give you room to negotiate down to 60/40 then 50/50. Then, over time, if your wife destabilizes, and you think it's best for your kids to stay with you, go back to court and ask to modify the order.

Don't make it easier for yourself in the short term because that is guaranteed to make your life miserable in the long term. Court is a chess game and your first moves largely determine how the rest of the game will go.

Sad to say. But true, in my experience.

LnL stated excellent reasons to take charge of your case so well, all I will write is DITTO!  You know that being compliant, appeasing and passive didn't work in the past, it would be even worse to sit back and let things happen at this late stage.  Yes, you can't get everything, not even if it's in the children's best interests, but you have to at least try your best for yourself and your children.  Why you too?  If you're not in a good parenting position, then your parenting will be negatively impacted for years to come.  As they say at the beginning of every air flight, "In the event of an emergency, put on your oxygen mask first before helping others."

I always say to get the very best temporary order possible.  I'm not saying to be unreasonable or vindictive, the reality is that in our high conflict cases being reasonable, fair and nice will get you and your parenting trampled in a stampede of allegations, obstruction and noncompliance.  It might not be so bad in your case if she has an extensive documented history of interventions and therapy... .but don't count on it.

I recall back when I first separated and my then-spouse had Threat of DV charges pending in another court, over in domestic court she got defaulted to temp custody and majority parenting time.  I was stunned, the magistrate only asked our work schedules.  I had a regular 5 day schedule.  My ex claimed she "worked from home" despite me having possession of the home in my TPO.  My lawyer said, "Shh, let it be, we'll fix it later."  A year into the case the court's own social worker recommended I get more parenting time and a Custody Evaluation to determine recommendations for custody.  Well, the court ignored the schedule change but did order the CE.  The initial CE report stated, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody".  Court did nothing but proceed to the next step.  So "we'll fix it later" ended up being some two years later in the final decree. :'(  That's why I say, get the best temp order possible.


A psychologist may be sufficient, they can evaluate and make a diagnosis, they can guide therapy.  The major difference I've concluded here is that a psychiatrist can give prescriptions for meds.  Meds can help, they can moderate the behaviors to some extent, but the individual still requires effective therapy.  This is not like Bi-polar which can be treated primarily with meds.

Also, a diagnosis can help the judge recognize that something different is going on than the usual mud-slinging high conflict divorce.

It is possible that you seek a custody evaluation as part of your divorce process, and in that case, both of you undergo psychiatric evaluation. So if you don't do it now, that doesn't mean you lose all chances to get one.

It's just that having her be willing to get one (and not you) signals a powerful message to the judge. She complied.

It gives you a much-needed advantage, especially if your court is biased against father's having primary custody.

No, that alone will not suffice for her.  The psychologist she saw refused to diagnose her and I could never get her to agree to talk to another one without the psychiatrists assistance and even that may not happen with her.  The only reason she is agreeing to a psychiatrist is that she thinks the psychiatrist is a specialist.  Her psychologist is hoping the psychiatrist will diagnose her.  Then the psychiatrist would refer my wife to another psychologist is what her therapist said. If the psychiatrist doesn't do that, I don't know what I can do then.      

As things stand now, the court would award her temp custody 12 of every 14 days in the event of a divorce.  I would absolutely ask for full custody and negotiate down from there being satisfied with 50/50 with me being the ultimate decider.  

From what you're saying it seems like taking her to a psychiatrist would get her diagnosed/scoped and if this did go to court, they would maybe approach things differently than they normally do.

I suppose there is no harm in trying this.

If you have any other thoughts, please let me know.        

I was commenting on general experiences.  Just as we see a wide range of behaviors from our spouses, so too with the agencies' actions and reactions.  The fact that your spouse has been seen by a few professionals already is more than many of us accomplished.

In my case the court was more focused on doing things the usual way.  The fact that my ex was facing charges in another court was listed on a form before the court but it was never discussed, the magistrate could very well have ignored that line item.  Even if he had addressed it in court, it could have been categorized as adult behaviors that may not necessarily affect the child.  What has the general potential to get the courts attention are poor parenting behaviors.  Even then they have to meet a high bar - what the professionals term substantive behavior - to be considered actionable.  I recall a couple times calling my local CPS... .


I guess what I'm writing is that you need to have enough expressed concerns acceptable to the court to enable or prod the court to not follow the typical default actions.

What you are trying to do is collect as many data points as you can so that your L can tell a compelling story about why you should have majority custody. Documentation is critical to this, and third-party professionals are considered far more credible than anything you say. It's important to pick good psychiatrists, and good psyche evals. Other tactics include depositions, though this may not make sense for your case. Or another tactic is a custody evaluation, or parenting coordinator, if your state uses them (even in states that do use them, the extension of their judicial authority varies).

It's hard to do when you're reeling and probably experiencing moderate to severe depression, but it's important to have a clear goal (like majority custody, 50/50 visitation, etc.) and then discuss your strategy with your L (who works for you!), and then weigh the pros/cons of different tactics. If you know your goals, and your L says, "You can't do that," then the next question is Why? If it feels like the lawyer is talking you out of what you know is best for the kids, it could be that he or she is a loser, or doesn't have the litigation skills, or doesn't want to set your expectations too high because then you'll blame him or her for losing.

What your lawyer might not understand is that our divorces and custody battles are marathons, not sprints, and our strategies and tactics need to take that into account. We might not "win" the short game in terms of what we ask for, but we have to aim twice as high to offset the irrational entitlements that our disordered spouses bring to the negotiation table. Also, if you are going to be in and out of court, it's best to start and stay with a consistent message. "I thought it was going to be ok, but now I changed my mind" is not as strong from a negotiation perspective as "I am consistently asking for the same thing. We will be back again and again until the court sees I know what needs to happen to keep us out of court."

Judges do not want repeat customers. 


Couple of questions:

Why would the court award her 12 out of 14 days? Is that based on what she would ask for? Or what your lawyer thinks you will get?

What other documentation would you use to show that your wife is not a capable parent?

12 out of 14 days is what the lawyers think the court would give me.


All I have that is outside of my own documentation is the post partum depression diagnosis with a hospitalization, A therapist that thinks my wife is immature and believes the kids would be best in my care,

Also 2 911 calls for an ambulance.  One was when she said she doesn't know if she can stay alive.  Unfortunately the ER dropped the ball and didn't get her the 72 hour examination that should have happened.  They believed her over me and I ended up getting rebuked.  Her therapist knows this and she even said the ER dropped the ball.

The other 911 call I told her I was leaving for a church that she didn't like or want to go to.  When she heard that, she started hyperventilating.  I called 911 and told them my wife was hyperventilating.  I told my wife "I got 911 on the phone".  When she heard that, she said "I'm okay, I'm okay" and started to calm down.  The 911 operator asked me why she was hyperventilating and I said "Because I'm going to church."  After  my wife calmed down I cancelled the ambulance.

Unfortunately when my wife was at her worst, I wasn't strong enough to be able to call the police.  I can say with confidence that I am now.  When I saw that my wife was playing games I got stronger and started to take care of myself first.

My wife can see that now and knows I will not tolerate this bad behavior so she's stopped.  However, her core issues are still there and she still believes that it's not her fault.  She just doesn't blame me anymore to my face, try to make me stay home from work, throw things at me, name call, yell at me in front of the kids, say I have another woman, complain about sex, threaten to kill herself, make me to lie to my parents, threaten to go back to Japan, put me down in front of other people.  She's a lot better than she used to be.  However, that's because she knows that won't work either to weaken me anymore.  I believe that she will do this stuff again because her thinking and heart haven't really changed.  When the fear of losing me and the kids wears off she'll start this again. 

She still doesn't want to go back to that church and wants to go to a certain church and will say that my son wants to go there and should get to choose.  I think though that it's just another game she's playing to have control of something.  She's still in control of the finances, she still wants me to herself.  She still wants control.     

Sorry, I went on longer than I was supposed to but it's what I feel like posting now.  Let me know what you think please.  I appreciate all the support.   

12 out of 14 is 85/15. Even my ex-husband didn't get that, and I had plenty of documentation about his substance abuse. That's roughly 4 days a month 

I'm confused why the lawyers would give you such a bleak outlook. Does your wife have documentation to use against you?

Each one of us has to make a choice about how much we can tolerate. If you are done, you are done. If you feel that your current documentation is not enough, and that things will slide back to status quo, and that this may help you strategically in court, knowing that it is best for your kids, that is only something you can answer. Meaning, can you stay longer to collect evidence for a stronger case? Hard question.

When I left, it was crystal clear, no second guessing. There was 100% no way I could stay. However, it took me roughly 4 years to leave, and a full year of planning, including strategizing with a lawyer, documenting what was going on, and putting an exit strategy in place (complete with my own post office box, credit card, storage locker, and private cell phone). I used that year to prepare for my divorce like it was a military operation. Because my ex was a lawyer, and I was psychologically beaten down, I was genuinely afraid he would get full custody and destroy me in court. Sheer anxiety and devotion to my son kept me going.

What turned everything around is that I stayed five steps ahead of him the entire process. I had a goal, I understood how things work where I live, I had a strategy, and tactics.

But that last year was hell on earth.  :'(

If your lawyers are giving you a bleak outlook and you know in your heart that the kids need to spend more time with you, then you either need new lawyers, a new goal, a new strategy, or all of the above. Or, you take what you can get and prepare to fight your way back.

When we're depressed, we don't think clearly. We have a harder time making decisions. We do things because we want something to go away, not because they're the best thing for us. The hard thing about family law court is that you need your senses, and you need a plan. You need clear thinking.

That's why we're here. Keep working the boards and use us to help you think clearly about what is best for you. If you need to get your feelings out here and share the distress you feel, by all means do so. You're married to woman with a confounding mental illness who you once loved, who is the mother of your children.

It doesn't get more complex than that. We understand and we're here for you.



LnL

She does not have documentation as far as I know.  It's possible that the judges here are really biased against men. 

The way the lawyers explained it to me is that because my wife is with the kids 24/7 that it's really hard to move this court away from what is already existent unless I have a mountain of evidence and/or she ends up getting a job and spends time away from the kids.  It seems the hospitalizations/PPD diagnosis don't matter much. 

The lawyers recommend that I force her to get a job and move closer to my family.  However, I know I can't prod or trick that woman into getting a job.  I've already tried many times.  The most likely reason she's still in the marriage is because she doesn't have to get one.  She's had all kinds of problems with my family in the past when we lived closer and I don't anticipate anything different this time because her thinking has not changed.     

I think I'm really close to leaving now rather than later.  I recognize that sticking around would help build my case.  I want to leave because I can't trust her and I believe that she'll do this again.  It bothers me that I'm still with her.  However I recognize the situation I'm in as well.         

Then this is a request to make to the court, probably repeatedly, that the divorce means she'll have to start working to support herself.  You have no authority in her eyes but court is The Real Authority.  These days raising children is no excuse not to work.  Child support is not intended to allow the parent to avoid work, it's to pay for the extra costs of caring more for the children.  At the least, any support ought to credit her with imputed income that is within her training or capability even if she doesn't work.

My ex was regularly imputed with minimum wage when child support to her was calculated.  This last time, when I got majority time during the school year, the court declined to impute wages or calculate child support to be paid to me, claiming incomes were, ah, the price of being a man.  I've had my income with me every time and she'd never provided any every time but with me able to get CS now... .

However be aware she will likely claim she has no skills or can't find a job.  Sometimes the working parent has paid some spousal support for a short period, maybe up to a couple years, so that the other parent can get job training or career certification.  That's still no guarantee she will get or keep a job, but at least it would remove that excuse.

Oh, and having to care for children is NO excuse to avoid work.  Millions of parents, both genders, juggle work and parenting.  If they can do it, so can your spouse.

When I almost left a few weeks ago she indicated that she couldn't make it on what I would give her and would leave for Japan.  The statement on life insurance and that I know she wants the kids indicates to me that she would fight me on custody of the kids. 

When I'm at home I feel like I don't want to be around her.  When I'm in the car by myself to drive at work it's a relief because I can express how I feel.  Yesterday I cried even though she isn't doing a lot bad to me now. When I think of all the things she did to me around the kids and the fact that she would almost certainly do it again it repulses me. 

Well, I just found a toothpick in my large tofu puff.  I never would have known if I didn't bite on it.  I know that toothpicks in tofu puffs are nothing unusual.  I couldn't eat the rest of my chicken of course.

My wife is acting really good though.  She's doing things around the house, giving me coffee, and watching the kids.  But I found a toothpick in my tofu where I could not see it. 

Well, if you do divorce then you and your spouse will have separate lives. If she wants to move to another city, state, province or country, that's okay, you can't control her life choices.  However... .your consistent position needs to be that YOU are and always will be a deeply involved parent.  That means the children don't move away with her if she moves away.  Of course, most of us found out rather quickly that we are no longer seen as having any authority in the household and without outside support we are somewhat 'stuck' with a spouse who isn't listening to us.  Well, domestic court is The Real Authority an entitled parent cannot ignore or steamroller.  So even if your spouse won't listen to you, she will have to listen to the court when it agrees that you have some level of parental rights too.

Are you aware that some countries are not a signatories to the Hague Convention on Children?  That country has a reputation to give solid preference to their native parents, ignoring non-native parents and not follow other countries' custody orders.  So be sure to get solid legal advice before allowing her to take the children out of the country.

Hmm, we've strayed form your initial question about life insurance.  Would you like to start new topics describing better your additional concerns?