BPDFamily.com

My story is here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286047.0

I haven't spoken to my ex in a few weeks. We agreed that I would give her time and space for a month, but the time is coming up where the month will be over and we'll have a phone conversation again. Long story short: it's been a confusing rollercoaster of alternately hearing from her that she "wants to be allowed to love me again", "wants to be friends/family", and "wants to care less."  

Anyway, after a month of very low contact in October, then a dramatic, confusing pseudo-fight on the phone, then a month of no contact, I'm feeling like I'm approaching "done" with her. I still have feelings and wishes and dreams and desires related to her - and I'd love to have a nice, moving-forward kind of talk with her, but I'm honestly scared to talk to her, after our last conversation spiraled out of control.

Does anyone have advice about holding your ground with a BPD as a non, while continuing to be validating and calm? Or about actually being friends with one despite them pushing away (but not too far away)? I'm on the fence still. I'd love to recover this relationship, but I have my doubts.

Hi MapleBob,

When the emotional part of our brains hit the ceiling, that makes it hard for our more problem-solving oriented half of the brain to help us think. With people who have BPD, that emotional side of the brain hits the roof very easily. BPD sufferers are more easily triggered and it takes them much longer to return to baseline. As others have said before, intimacy itself can be very triggering. In many ways, your ex is taking care of herself by pacing these conversations so that she is not feeling so triggered all the time.

I agree with baby ducks in your other post that talking about your relationship status with your ex, and demanding or expecting some kind of agreement, may in fact be perpetuating the push/pull, at the very least it could be aggravating it. I'm not BPD, and even so, when I began dating my current partner (also not BPD), it made me feel anxious if he tried to make things go faster than the very very very slow paint drying pace I wanted our relationship to go.

It is hard in BPD relationships to take a step back and examine ourselves because the anxiety often in these relationships compels us to move closer to our loved one, even (or especially) when they are pushing us away. This can be as simple as "how am I feeling when she does not contact me" or "why am I feeling so upset in this conversation," and choosing to reflect and respond instead of react (a tenet of mindfulness).

How do you think the conversation would go if you allowed the conversation to focus on neutral topics instead of the relationship status?

I heard from her tonight! We're talking on December 6th. Pretty short, tactical text conversation, but I asked her if she had anything in mind for our talk and she said: "Ha. That's a hard question to answer. There's always things on my mind." Hoo boy.

A few things have changed, actually, and I think that the remaining changes that need to be made are hopeful ones. At the very least we each definitely have a very different understanding of the situation than we did months ago. I just don't know if she's there. She's probably not, and I don't know if she will be.


That *does* fit very well with what she tells me. Actual quote: "I really believe that this will kill me before it kills you," along with the "you're more dedicated, and nicer, and more capable, and better at this than I am!" stuff that she says.


I want to say that I would be okay with moving slowly, as long as we were moving! Our level of engagement is intentionally sparse, and that's hard on me. It's a sacrifice. I mean, that's really the question here: is this relationship meeting my needs, or how long can I wait patiently and lovingly until it does? Will it ever? But I really do feel like it's best to drop the pressure. I have some conflicting instincts, I guess.


I find it almost impossible to believe that a conversation between us that doesn't at least touch on relationship status is even possible. She takes it there as often as I do, like she expects me to have a solution or some kind of new wisdom to sprinkle around about it. She's pretty cautious about what she *gives* to those parts of the conversation, but she's always been very curious to hear what I have to say. Then it devolves from there. Avoiding those topics all together would be difficult, and it's equally possible that being seen to avoid them might set her off too.

You feel it's best to drop the pressure... .and yet you're struggling to do this when you're in conversation with her. Understandable! Learning how to improve our communication skills takes practice.


Do you want to focus on this one thing for now? This would entail learning how to gently divert the conversation when she tests to see if you are willing to engage. First, though, you have to be clear that you don't want to engage. This is a boundary you set for yourself, not a boundary to control her.

Is this something you feel ready to do?

It's this awful catch-22 where I really do *want* to talk about the relationship and process and get clear with each other, but another part of me sees that it gets us nowhere good, because she triggers easily (and sometimes I do too). That just isn't working. Not yet anyway. And when we're not talking for a solid month at a time (so that she has time/space/etc.) it's hard to imagine not checking in about our relationship in those rare instances when we connect.

I see what you're saying. It makes perfect sense that you'd want to see where the two of you stood, especially after not talking for a period of time.

To me, it definitely sounds like you need to find your center independently of her and your relationship status. In hindsight, when I was going through a similar push/pull cycle with my pwBPD, I realize that I could have given myself a lot more mental space. When I did, my ex didn't seem so out of sorts.

This is definitely a difficult thing to get good at, though. Are you seeing a T at all? That might be a good place to start.

I did see my therapist again about this, about a month ago. I've done pretty extensive therapy work, so I have a good base of skills. It was helpful, and I trust her opinions and advice a lot.

But dammit if I didn't get into a text discussion with her this evening after all, and of course I asked how she was feeling about things, and of course she was overwhelmingly negative and emotional and hair-triggered and split me/her/us black from head to toe, and of course she dropped at least one bomb that still has me spinning: "I don't think we want to be friends with each other. I think we want to be together but we can't be anymore so we are doing this f**ked up thing."  

It's also now painfully obvious that she's seeing someone, and probably has been for quite some time, and hasn't been telling me, and yet still says things like that, so... .whoa.  red-flag

Hi Maple,

I like what valet said about finding your center independent of her and your relationship.  Sounds simple but was a new way of thinking for me.   to me finding my center meant identifying my own emotions, thoughts, ideas regardless of what was going on with my partner.   my emotions can't be based on hers, or reactive to hers.   that's just sent me rocketing off into space.

what makes you say it's obvious that she is seeing someone, did she mention that during your text exchange?

'ducks

Well, I wound up asking her directly after I posted that and she said that she isn't, so I don't know. Just discard that idea. Late-night paranoia maybe.  

Finding my own center isn't impossible for me, but yes, there is a lot of buffeting that occurs around her. She's still giving off a lot of mixed messages. I could type out a bunch of stuff she said, but the main points are "I don't think we want to be friends with each other. I think we want to be together but we can't be anymore so we are doing this f**ked up thing," which she then clarified to ":)on't read into it too much, please. I meant that I feel we aren't good at loving each other in a friendship way. And I absolutely do not want to be together now. Just to be 100% clear," but then we ended the conversation with "I get your frustration. I AM impossible. And I don't know why. I'm trying (really!) to let go of being angry and sad, but it's slowwwww," and "I love you. I'm not really an a**hole, I swear. I'll talk to you soon.  "

Oh, and "I really don't know why you ever ask me how I feel. I always get it wrong! You asked where I'm at, and I told you. Next time just don't ask. I know you try/tried. I know I don't try hard enough. That's part of the problem, I get it."

Let's split everyone black! The love/hate is driving me nuts. I really want her to get diagnosed. This is SO borderline.

Seriously  .

I'm really not happy with my options with her, and I'm spinning and overthinking tonight. I'm supposed to text with her next Saturday, then talk on Sunday. I don't know the right thing to say or do. Ugh.

Do borderlines push us away and try to hurt us so that we'll leave them and reinforce their mistaken beliefs about them being awful people? As a non I just can't wrap my head around that.

I don't think the reasoning is that specific. It is more of a situation of 'can't'. Some people can't do some things emotionally, and it's very hard to ascertain why unless they spend a lot of time in therapy exploring their own stuff. It is generally never about us. Understand that the shame and guilt she lives with (and projects when triggered) is her own. It is not yours.

The best you can do is remain upbeat and true to yourself, while offering your support if she asks. These situation are kind of like untangling a big knot. We have to work slowly and carefully, or things will only get tighter and more difficult to separate.

I know that sounds difficult. It will be. Accepting your role as the more emotionally mature person (her caretaker, in a sense) will benefit you quite a bit, especially during this rough patch. How would you describe the dynamic emotionally at this point?

It's been a pretty long rough patch at this point, but this is a particularly rough patch of the rough patch.  

The emotional dynamic is that no matter what I seem to do, she's pushing me away/running/apologizing/splitting me black. I think the most telling thing she's said recently is upthread, the one about how she's "really trying to let go of being mad/sad, but it's slowwwww." I probably need to be doing more *emotional* validating, but I feel like I need (for me) to do it without validating the ensuing behavior based on her feelings. "Feelings aren't facts", that's really hard to get through to her. Reading between the lines, it's that she feels hopeless, so things are hopeless. And anyway, she doesn't have the time or energy or know what to do or what she wants or yadda yadda yadda... .

Two months of low-contact bordering on no contact has calmed her not one iota. I still hear that she's obsessed with thinking about our relationship, but she also says that she doesn't care. That's a favorite.

being validating doesn't come naturally to me.   It got a lot easier when I accepted that my partners emotions are very real to her.  I don't have to like them, accept them, or agree with them to acknowledge that they are an important part of her and meaningful to her.

Oh, I'm sure that her emotions are real for her, and I can validate them. But if, in her mind, feelings are facts, and ever-changing (I typically get 3-4 moods out of her in any given conversation), AND she bases decisions on these ever-changing fact-feelings, well, that's pretty hard to cope with.

This is a big part of what makes her who she is. Whether you become friends or lovers, this is the person you love, and she is like this. Some people decide this isn't something they can tolerate long-term. Some people develop skills that seem to work. Since you are living long distance and aren't technically together, this might mean that you work on one thing during the calls you have. A chance for you to experiment with some of the lessons here.

It's hard for anyone to transition from lover to friend. In your mind, what would signify that you were doing this successfully with your ex?

Based on what I've been saying, where should I start?


That's a really hard question. I think that setting some clear intentions towards being friends and NOT harboring hopes of reconciliation on either side would help, but I'm not sure I can do that yet - and no matter what she says, I'm not sure she can either. It would take some actual engagement on her part, in a consistent fashion. Actually, consistency in general would be really really a huge relief at this point.

It's true, though: I'm not 100% sure or unsure that I can hang with someone who, over the course of literally an hour, will say "I love you" AND "I don't care", "I want to say goodbye" AND "things will get better between us", "I feel calmer when I'm not talking to you" AND "I think about this all the time, I get surprise anger, this makes me insane, I'm obsessed with this relationship, etc." It's like I'm supposed to be able to have the exact right reaction to what she says in the moment, only to have to turn on a dime scant minutes later when she says the exact opposite thing.

She's also started doing this "I don't even feel like I really know you or your life anymore" as a justification for pushing me away, even while admitting that she's done everything within her power to keep herself from being in a position to know me! That would have to stop. So yeah, consistency. One way or the other.

Two years ago my ex suddenly veered from being super close and open with me, to holding me at arm's length (at the same time, he started to date someone else, an obvious explanation for the shift; I was aware from some publicly available photos, though he did not tell me at the time and did not realize I knew).  It hurt my feelings a lot and I took a while to process.  Finally I raised it with him -- not in terms of the new woman, but in terms of the subtle but real shift in how he was dealing with me.  He was upset with me for saying this (I was starting to threaten our to-that-point very secure-feeling friendship, in his view), but he asked what I would need for things to be better.  I told him what I needed was for him to sustain what he started with me -- a level of closeness, a conversation, whatever.  Not to suddenly change what we were doing.  "Consistency" would have been another word for what I was asking for.

In retrospect, there is nothing I could have asked that would have been harder for him.  His feelings and impulses are all over the place.  He may be able to work his way back around to me and to what we were doing, but to show up consistently in the same emotional state and posture toward our r/ship -- I might as well have been asking for the moon.

I think what livednlearned is saying is that your SO is not a person who is emotionally consistent -- nor can she be.  It is really important to accept that this is true.  Expecting that to change sets you both up for a hard fall. 

Disengaging from the circular argument might be a place to start. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107

People with BPD have very labile moods. That doesn't mean you have to engage every single one. Can you listen to her without taking what she says personally? This will be hard -- you are attached to an outcome (wanting her to want a relationship with you).


Consistency is something we have to provide, the non-BPD partner. If your ex is BPD, you are going to have to provide the structure and be the consistent partner in the friendship or relationship.

What do you think would happen if you told her you want to be friends, and may need some time to disengage?

Okay, lots to reply to here:


Well, that does give me some perspective to go on, and could be seen as consistent. Maybe she white-knuckled her way through our initial romantic relationship of 14 months (well, the mask started to slip fairly early on, actually, to hear her speak of it now, though I didn't notice it because she tried to hide it). She has said that she "felt like a good version of herself" during the time we were together - as in, she was able to wear the mask of a sane, rational, safe-feeling person under the effects of the honeymoon period? But she isn't an emotionally consistent person, so she just couldn't continue being that way. That's very interesting, actually.


It's pretty difficult not to take personally sometimes, but most of the time I actually feel exasperated. I'm not taking it personally anymore (most of the time), I'm just frustrated at being handed conflicting messages and being expected to make sense of them and act on them. So I need to learn - and be given the opportunity to practice that with her, I guess, which is a big "thing I'm not getting that I need".


I can work on consistency. I think I'm pretty consistently on-message with her, but I voice my frustrations more than I probably could/should. I could play those closer to the chest for now, until a "mood opportunity" presents itself.

Well, first of all, I guess I should be clear: being friends is "settling" for me. I'd much rather be with her in a romantic relationship than in a friendship, but a romantic entanglement with her is very very fraught, and is likely asking too much of both of us (right now anyway). If I asked her for time for disengagement she would accept that happily, I think. It's almost something she's begged me to ask her for. She doesn't understand why I like her, or love her, or want to know her, or want to talk to her or have anything to do with her. She's pondered that loudly and repeatedly and directly, and I can give her reasons and validate her having doubts (and I have my doubts about that too!), but she can't hear or feel or relate to or accept my answers. She's begging me to leave sometimes, it seems, although I know that me leaving is also a fear of hers, and that my staying is the very biggest (and most frustrating) form of validation that I can give her.

I'm feeling really angry and hopeless going in to this talk, and she's threatening to "say goodbye", not because she wants to, but because she feels like it's the right thing to do at this point. Ugh, help.

You don't want to be dangled (feels awful), and sense that she is trying to end things.

How do you want this to go? End angrily? That might make it easier to step away.

Or do you want to draw boundaries that might be difficult in a different way, where you can avoid an angry phone call, yet still decide to step away.

It sounds like she is trying to stop the bleeding. 

The thing is: I don't actually know if she's going to. I think I could prevent it, but to what end? I feel like I would need something clear and solution-based to present to her to keep her around, but I don't know if I have that, or if that's even possible. Stopping the bleeding AND getting her to engage would be great, but that might be at cross-purposes right now. She's been apologetic, and promised that we'll have a better talk, and said that she loves me, but she's also pushed away and threatened to say goodbye, and said some pretty ridiculous things to me too. I think there's some validity in the "we aren't friends; we want to be together but we can't anymore" statement.  :'(

How do I *want* this to go? I *want* her to feel safe, and to soften, and not leave, and begin to slowly build something with me again. I *want* her to accept that hard things have happened, and to be happy that I'm still here, and to drop the defenses/rage/sadness and let herself love me (love as in the verb, not the feeling), like she says she wants to be able to.

You are asking for the impossible for someone with BPD.  They can act normal at times but the defenses/rage/sadness will always return, feeling safe and secure is impossible due to their failure of abandonment and they find it very hard to accept responsibility for their actions, its always someone elses fault and there's a lot of other issues too.

If you want to be with her and find some sort of peace within yourself, I suggest learn as much as you can about her illness and to have realistic expectations, to not take things personally, to accept things as they are, and to learn validation and empathy to make things better.  Tell her you love her and will always be there for her no matter what. Love is "unconditional" and she has an uncurable illness.  Ask yourself if you love her unconditionally and if you are prepared to ride this emotional roller coaster.  Remember, You are not alone, there's so many of us that are going through similar situations. 

I know. That's just what I *want*. I guess I'm trying to figure out how close to that I can get and still be happy.


Learning lots here! And all over the internet (although there are some real negatively-skewed articles out there, sheesh). I absolutely will be telling her that I love her, and that I won't leave/abandon her, regardless. I'm feeling pretty close to unconditional here, even after all of this - that doesn't mean I wouldn't LOVE things to get steadily better, but I can hang in there, assuming she does. That's my worry at the moment (and has been for a while): that she's going to just bail. I honestly don't know why she's even still talking to me at all, given the things she says.

"At this point I feel pretty strongly that we should just say goodbye soon" and then literally ten minutes later it's "I care about you and I'm sorry for my part. I'm so tired of us saying that but it's still true ... .I love you too. I'm not really an a**hole, I swear. We will talk and it will be better than this." 

What am I supposed to make of that?

It's the mental illness speaking.  I feel the same way as you in my relationship in that I can hang in there for us if I felt she was just as committed and I worry that at any time she can blow up about anything or a made up thing and change her mind.  Using validation, empathy, not taking things personally, ignoring her attacks and just plain keeping my mouth shut has minimized any outbursts and fights.  For me I'm giving it my best effort but if there's another breakup, or if she cheats I tell myself I will need to move on.  Expect your emotions to be all over the place due to what seems her changing feelings for you, one day you will feel like she loves you immensely and be on top of the world, next day it may feel as she loathes you and you are the scum of the Earth.  Things aren't going to ever be smooth with a BPD so if you decide to stick it out , you better be prepared to love a roller coaster ride. 

She isn't diagnosed, but she IS seeing a therapist and I'm prepared to ascribe to her certain STRONG BPD traits, if not the full-blown disorder. Just to be clear about that.

And yeah, I hear you. I guess I'm going to try to focus on being emotionally centered when I'm in communication with her (IF I'm in communication with her), not be pushy/pressuring, validate... .basically what I'm already doing. Sigh. I can think of so much we could do to improve our relationship if she would just relax into this. At least relax.

I've got some more time in me to wait this out.

Your're doing what you have to do so hang in there and I hope it works out the best for you!

I'm pretty sure she's a goner. I'll never understand it. Why do they cling so hard only to then push you away so hard? And so coldly?

I feel like there's this element of: well, if things ever got okay between us, we would be together, and that's too much, so here, let me sabotage some things.

She may have a fear of intimacy (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79300.msg782064#msg782064) that is co-mingled with her fear of abandonment.

Well, that's almost certainly true. Hard to get through one without triggering the other. 

I think the long distance makes this particularly tough. She can manage her fears very easily by deciding whether to pick up the phone, or not.

That puts you in a really tough position.

Explain?

She is in the tower in the castle, and can lower the drawbridge when she wants. You are outside the moat.

She lowers it a bit, talks about lowering it, brings it back up, talks about how she wants to lower it. Watches to see what you do. Wants you to stop waiting there. Wishes she could let you in. Can't let you in.

Meanwhile, you're outside.

It puts you in a weak position, and that is not a good place to be with someone who is BPD. Your options to be strong seem limited here. One: do not engage about the relationship during calls with her. Two: tell her you are moving on.

Are they other options?

That is SO MUCH like a metaphor I've used with her! I've said that it's more like she's behind doors with elaborate locks that she expects someone to be able to open, when she could just open them herself!

It's true: not a lot of options here. Settle for less and hope it gets better, or settle for none and be able to at least know that it's over. But I feel like it'll never be totally over with her. Even during the breakup she was constantly saying "I'll be in touch somewhere down the road", just like she's always saying "talk once a month *for now*" in the present. Ugh.

This is underestimating the fear in her fear of intimacy.

Fear of intimacy in an intimate relationship can feel like annihilation.

It's that powerful.

I'm sure it must be terrifying for someone with abandonment AND intimacy issues to know that I've seen her at her very worst and stayed and loved her anyway. She's done and said straight-up f**cked-up things too, and voices assumptions about me that are patently false and have been proven so, and I'm still here, and I still love her. Because I know who I am, and nobody's opinion or assumption is going to change that. That's what she *desperately* wants for herself: calm self-assuredness, so yeah, it must be pretty hard for her to feel like she can get on my level sometimes. I'm a walking/talking/loving-her metaphor for her own inadequacy. And she's hurt me, and is genuinely apologetic. There's actually a funny pattern I've noticed: when I actually start to lose my cool and be like "hey, X behavior/thing you said, it sucks and it hurts me and I'm trying here, so come on", she responds pretty well.

 |iiii

Because you are showing her boundaries. It's possible to show boundaries without losing our cool. In fact, when you have a handle on them, it's much less likely to happen because other skills are available.

Giving up too much of ourselves in these relationships comes across as weak. We become devalued. We teach others that it's ok to devalue us, and then wonder why we're being devalued 

I'll give that some thought/research! It's a pretty fine line.

I suspect that what I'm going to get when I talk to her this weekend will be "we should say goodbye, for a while at least, UNLESS YOU CAN SELL ME ON A BETTER IDEA... ." So I need to have a response for that, a Plan B.

How would you feel about saying, "Ok."

Or, "I understand. I'm sorry about it, and I'll miss talking to you. You know how I feel."

I'm thinking about my mom here. She is a very generous, very kind, very loving yet codependent person. It is so easy to dismiss her or walk all over her because she equates having no boundaries with love. As a result, I feel bad when I'm around her. I love her, I also have some disdain for the way she allows everyone in our family, myself included, to disrespect her. I am the one who has to have twice the boundaries in our relationship because she cannot assert her own, and frankly that is a lot of work. I need to take breaks because the effort becomes exhausting.

That's why I was suggesting that you try something small with your ex, assert a boundary to show that you can -- for example, don't talk about the relationship. Can you do that?

I've thought about saying "okay", but it's not "okay."

Not talking about the relationship is easier to contemplate.

She really wants a plan, though, and it sounds like she wants definitions.

Am I a complete idiot for still being there for her? This is a girl who got all disappointed and angry that I didn't show up at her house 300 miles away in another country to win her back after SHE broke up with ME. 

Why not see how it goes, having a boundary with her. Contemplate holding that boundary with her during the call. See what happens -- this is a new strategy. You might discover there is a shift in the dynamic that is positive, you never know.

If you were to be with her long term, having boundaries is essential. Essential.

Even just practicing them now will help you locate your own strength. You do have agency in this dynamic.

I'm interested in trying that. We actually have a Saturday "text to check-in" / Sunday "phone conversation" planned. I guess I could tell her on Saturday that I don't want to talk about or make decisions about our relationship or stuff from the past right now, until things settle down. I'd rather hear about her life and break the ice and have some laughs instead anyway. That might open things up a little.

'Bob,

This is hard stuff. She's been increasingly pulling away for two months and is saying "I absolutely do not want to be together now - just to be 100% clear". I think where this is headed in pretty clear. You're in stage "RED" on the emergency response scale.    

You don't have a lot of moves to make here. One thing for sure, doing more of the same is not going to help. If you want to keep this from going off the cliff, you need a new plan today.

She say's she is angry and sad. What is she angry and sad about? What is this idea about a "plan" - a plan for what, exactly? . Can you explain this a little more?

Skip

Yes, it's very alarming! Especially when she's ALSO saying that she loves me and wants to know me and wants to keep me and that she's "supposed to have me in her life, she just knows it" and that, despite the increasing pulling away/pushing away behaviors, she's still thinking and feeling and obsessing over our relationship!

She's angry and sad about the things that have come to pass between us, and the things that have been said, but mainly what I hear (once she's exhausted herself usually) is that she can tell that I love her, she can see that I love her, but she can't FEEL that love. It's hard to know why exactly, or what even to make of that, but my assumption is that she was desperately, impatiently, and codependently in love with me, and that she wanted me to move there and be with her, but it was taking time, and required her to make some sacrifices for me, and to reach out of her comfort zone in certain ways. On my end, I had to be very strategic and calming and solid, and I guess that doesn't look enough like wild crazy codependent love, especially long distance? I don't know, I've never understood that part. To hear her narrative: we had a great 3-6 months at first, then things got "real" and the obstacles became clear, and she needed someone to blame and that guy was me, so I got devalued. (She didn't vocalize any of this to me at the time, by the way.)  I didn't change my approach from day one - I just increasingly heard the kind of non-committal, nitpicky complaints that were dealt with in the moment. I read about the classic "here's the pattern of a BPD relationship" and it was *exactly* what I experienced: fantasy "on a pedestal" whirlwind romance > clinging needy behavior with little actual basis for its necessity > splitting > devalue > ditch the relationship, but leave the options open.

As far as a plan goes: it seems like she wants to be able to have a casual friendship with me where she remains calm, feels independent, and no one is hurting over too much or too little contact. I also get the sense that maybe that casual friendship could progress into more some day, but she doesn't want that to be an *expectation*.

Granted, this has been going on for ten months now, and there is evidence to contradict probably everything I've just stated, and to confirm it.

So she wanted you to be wildly and "throw caution to the wind" in love with her and that bubble has burst. This is a pretty common the pwBPD scenario.  She idealized the relationship (unrealistically) and is hugely let down.  You responded to it by justifying its reality which, unknown to you, was systematically invalidating her and making demands. She knows there are good things about the relationship - but the fantasy has died - and she has pulled back. You responded by pulling and getting a clingy... .

I hate to use the word clingy, but I know no man wants to be considered clingy, so it makes the point.

This does not sound totally lost, yet, but you probably need to change your tactics significantly and fast. The pending phone call is teed up for a let down. You don't want to consummate that.

One tactic is to ask for space (not decisions). Drop all discussion of the "relationship". Focus on making whatever time she gives you, fun. Take all the pressure off without saying, I'm taking all the pressure off (saying it is pressure).

One really important thing - do this in a way that you are not a doormat or a puppy waiting for scrapes from the dinner table. Do it with strength, benevolence, compassion. Be a awesome good guy.

Change the game. She is more likely to respond positively to this than that track you are own. It takes strength.

Just an idea... .

Skip

P.S. Spend some of that time here learning the tools and assessing your long term relationship goals.

Anybody else agree with Skip? I'm buying into taking the pressure off, not discussing the relationship, taking a breather with lighter communication... .*doing* the relationship as it is right now, and moving it to a safer place. For starters.

Now what if she comes at it with a hard-nosed "I'm saying goodbye to you tomorrow" approach? Just accept that maybe it's too late? "I don't want that, but okay," sort of thing?

Be positive about it and make it about her and don't put cement on it or cast a life-net. "I want you to do whats right for you right now. You deserve that." Avoid "have a great life", "I'll always love you", or "give me another chance". This will have the most positive effect of this situation. You can come here after and share with us.


Can you get this done and sidestep the showdown?

How does it work with the two of you? You schedule text times and phones otherwise no communication?

It's going to be really hard to validate her walking away.  :'(

Yes, for the past couple of months it's been "let's talk around X date", text closer to that date to confirm and see where things are at, then phone conversation. No contact in between. Still Facebook/Instagram connected, etc.

I might be able to side-step the showdown, yes. I think that could be done, with the right approach. "Hey, I've been thinking... .Things have been hard, and I'd like to just have a nice conversation with you, get the update on your life, etc. I miss that, and some calm talk between us could really help." Not like that exactly, but you know. Drop the pressure, invite some calm interaction, be prepared to not "go there" or let it "go there".

Just an side question here - is this pressure for you to step up in the relationship?  Is the "plan" about marrying her or some higher level of commitment?

No no, not at all. At least I don't think so. I think "the plan" is how she's referring to the process of stabilizing this relationship, into a place where it feels good for both of us, and is reliable and not trapped in circular arguments/pressure/guilt/wanting more/wanting less. She uses the word "calm" a lot.

And yeah, I get it: I can't give her calm (and certainly not by processing relationship matters). I can only remain calm, validate, and roll with it.

I definitely feel that pressuring her to make decisions on the relationship will most likely make her run the other way.  I understand completely your view in that you'd like some resolution no matter what it is so you can move in a particular direction but you have to be patient if you want a relationship with her.  So yes tell her you care and are there for her and always will be, that she can contact you anytime if she wants to talk or just wants someone to listen, that you think she is wonderful and has so much to offer.  Then have the lighter communication, show an interest in getting to know her better, show her your humor, intelligence, but mostly show that you are interested in her interests.  If you do that will all of a sudden she want to be with you?  Probably not, but in time she may gravitate towards you.  She will think of you as a place for support, comfort, safety, and a real friend. If she responds with mean things and says she never wants to talk to you, that she's done with you, just respond kindly and reiterate that you care for her and aren't giving up on her and will always be there for her.  Then leave it at that and know that you did all you can. 

On way to sidestep this (described above) is to apologize via text and take the blame for your part  in the "circular arguments/pressure/guilt/wanting more/wanting less" (not to be defined - that's complicated) and tell her you just want to let go of your dialog that, in the scheme of things, really isn't important. You appreciate her for who she is. You can even comment on how you can get mired and not see the forest for the trees. Obviously, I not scripting you, just tossing out ideas.

When you get on the phone, have something interesting to talk about (outside of the relationship), agree with what she wants, make no demands (or more importantly, impart no guilt) and end the call on a positive note at the first lull. Don't prompt her with "I love yous", that often demands a returned "I love you" which is pressure or I'll always be there for you which is guilting. Listen to her, and be supportive. Don't talk about future call frequency... .no demands. Basically, take all the objections away and forfeit all control. And then wait for her to contact you.

Crazy?

Think about the alternative. If you stay on the path you are on, even with adjustments, you are going to end up with Auf Wiedersehen (or you will be taking one step closer to it).

This approach is totally disarming. She can't fight it. She can't be mad. She can only be cautious (is this too good to be true). She will get off the phone feeling positive about herself. Hopefully that will translate to healing the anger and getting back. That will take a little time depending on how angry she is - and how much she needs proof that you meant what you said.

Read this, it will give you a sense of how much things have eroded and how significant an action is needed to recover to baseline (stage 1):

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Lastly, I am not telling you to be a doormat, or be weak, or have bad boundaries. I'm saying stand confident, be strong, end the drama, give her time to see the guy she was crazy about in the beginning.

While your waiting this out, work the boards here - for relationship skills and to sort out what has been happening in your relationship.

I *have* been pressuring (didn't know better at the time), but other than that I feel like I have been trying to do this. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. She has said from time to time that she gets more out of talking to me than she does from talking to her therapist! She acknowledges that I'm a good guy and a good person. I think this is more about "oh my god, I'm treating you so badly, why are you still here?, I'm a failure and an a**hole, you should go be happy and forget about me, etc." Like I'm making the right moves, but she isn't; and she knows it, and feels like a disappointment. And yes, I've been disappointed! Breakups - especially really confusing open-ended ones - are really disappointing!


Wait, what message exactly am I trying to impart here? Taking responsibility for my part, apologizing, and surrendering? (<--- I don't necessarily feel negatively about that.) Leaving the ball in her court with no pressure for her to pick it up? After giving her a nice, stimulating conversation? I like that!


Yeah, that's pretty grim. She's definitely been stonewalling for the past two months. It's funny because we wrote these letters to each other just before that happened. We wrote one set of letters to get out all of the angry/sad things that we hadn't said, then we wrote letters about how much/what we loved about each other and our time together. She had the strangest reaction to these letters: the angry/sad ones seemed to make her more committed and more apologetic and more present. After we did the loving ones she got REALLY angry - mostly to the tune of "yeah, things were really great, but really awful things happened too! I can't just forget them, they don't just cancel each other out! It's like you expect me to make a choice between them!" When really all I wanted was things mutually out on the table and a chance to feel better and emphasize the positives (there were reasons for that at the time: we had been getting along pretty well and then she suddenly got super angry with me out of nowhere, and I felt that we should talk about it). That's when she started really pulling away and acting out and stonewalling.


Yeah, it IS going to have to be me who ends the drama, isn't it? That's going to take some pretty firm boundaries, and I hope that it isn't already too late for that to work. I guess I just have to be the adult here, but not appear to be "being the adult" necessarily.

When the current tactic isn't working, change it:

(http://www.t.sonypicturesstudiostours.com/uploads/img/std_content/pre_12.jpg)

BTW, while all the things we discussed will help in a crisis, you will want to start the work necessary to be able to deal with the problems that landed you here.

That's a thing that is happening. I may have gotten things out of order, and hoped that some quick-fix things would have worked (they have before). She didn't really take any solution-based talk to heart. Probably because the air hasn't been cleared yet, and safety was/is still an issue.

Boy I've really been through the ringer here with her, huh?

Oh, question: so say I invite her to just have a nice, non-relationship-processing talk with me on Sunday... .Should I text her that intention soon, or wait to hear from her on Saturday? Saturday could be the day she potentially tells me that she wants to say goodbye on Sunday.

I'd pre-empt it all with the apology text before Saturday. I wouldn't announce a discussion format - just go with it.

Wait, what do you mean? What should I say?

I actually have some important job-related stuff coming up, so I could be like "hey, I need to not get riled up this weekend, can we just have a calm, ice-breaking, catch-up talk on Sunday?" and buy some time with that.

I sent her an email, pretty casual, just asked her if we could drop the heavy stuff until after christmas and just have a nice talk and catch up on each other's lives.

Phew. "I feel good about that. I've been having kind of a shi**y few weeks, so that definitely works for me." Reprieve!

*mod*

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