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Is anyone actually in a emotionally stable relationship with their Bpd? Is anyone actually happy?

 Emotionally stable?  Lol no that is not been a hallmark of my relationship at all.   A little while after I met my girlfriend five years ago we talked about what we valued in a relationship.  I remember saying one of the things that I wanted was consistency and stability.

You will notice here I say was instead of is.  My relationship has morphed and twisted into something completely different than what I hoped it was going to be.  I adjusted my expectations,  and eventually adapted to the situation. And the situation of this relationship is that it is anything but emotionally stable.

Am I happy?  Yes, we have had some amazing good times together and I love her.

Am I happy all the time? Of course not

That said,  she is currently dysregulating and sending me numerous negative texts.  She hosted her first Thanksgiving and that was stressful.  Tomorrow my boys are coming to visit me and that's always been stressful for her. Her birthday is next week and right after that she starts her period (keeping track of this has quite possibly saved my life) and of course we have Christmas around the corner.  So stress and emotional instability are in my immediate forecast. 

The point here is there's always good and bad in any relationship.  And when you're in a relationship with a pwBPD it can at times fluctuate wildly, and sometimes to the extreme.

I try to think of my happiness in percentage.  I would say I'm happy 70% of the time.  My unhappiness often stems from not having things people who are not in one of these relationships take for granted like being able to bring my uBPD GF to a social event without having to fear the negativity and hypersensitivity will lead into a more severe Dysregulation. But in those good moments I am really happy 3 years later, but of course those are the moments when I am totally focused on her.

I would say my r/s is stable but I am not happy.

Seeks,

Thank you for your honesty and openness. I'm just gathering information if I can stay on this roller coaster or not.

I agree there are good times and bad, but the good are difficult to come by while the bad are worse than I feel a normal person should have to deal with.

We own a business together, which he has already tried to sabatage at one time by shutting down. I have dropped into anxiety and depression mode, crawled out of it twice (luckily my business gets a lot of positive recognition and reinforcements, thus my work-a-holic nature has somewhat saved our marriage.) but he is dysregulating again. Bpd H - and im not sure how many more cycles I can keep living with. Each time it pulls me down and I have to crawl back out. It gets harder and harder every time.

He is in DBT therapy 3 hours a week for the next 6 months, he's competed one month. It's been almost 5 months since his last escalation. Threatening to leave. Divorce me. All because I gave him a look of disappointment because he didn't reply to one of our clients.

I'm just really not happy. He gets jealous when I hang out with my friends, saying "who are you." Because I am much more social than when I lived in Hawaii.  I think most of the time I pretend to be okay, for the business, or I hope it to be something it's not. But I'm losing that hope because I don't think it will ever be like it was in the beginning. I'm just realizing what gas lighting is and that its been done to me.

Sounds like you are tired of the roller coaster and role playing the good times, even feeling disingenuous.

Few people are happy 100% of the time in any relationship. I think in a dysfunctional relationship you can still be happy but it may be balanced differently. I think the key is to find something about THIS relationship that is giving you something you wouldn't normally have. Your little nugget if you like, That makes it easier to get over other things that may niggle you.

Making escalating conflict a thing of the past is a major benchmark, as that is toxic and makes it hard to hold on to respect and let resentment go.

Hey, sorry.  It sucks being half alive.  Understand.  Had 400k, and my ex ruin everything.  God did i love her.  She just couldnt love like we do.  I honestly really saved her life.  Well by the time i was broken ready to end it all my life as well...   ex  after getting love and everything else just wanted me dead.  Funny how they can hate, but love is just to much.  Well so ending it all, for me.  Lead to my current relatiionship.  I have never really undetstood love like this, i feel loved now, and slowly im healing.  Please save your self.  If u get divorced.  Just plan, some BPD will kill, or even themselves.  But get love, go you deserve it.  You only live once

I think this is an individual decision. I think some of us here could read another post and think " I couldn't stand that! but someone else's relationship is not for us to judge. People can be happy in different situations. There are plenty of people who do not have BPD and I could not see myself romantically attached to them. It really is to each his or her own, I think.

We are all with our SO's for some reasons- we "match" them in certain ways. One part of growing emotionally in our relationships is to learn about ourselves.

Being unhappy is a clue that we have something to learn about ourselves.

It could be that our needs are not being met, or our boundaries are being violated- and those boundaries could impact things we value- financial security, fidelity.

It could be that we are giving up too much of ourselves and need to be more who we are.

I am happier, but this is because thankfully, major boundaries were not being violated- there was no cheating, physical abuse or other situations that would have posed a larger dilemma for me. I am happier because I have been able to reduce conflicts and deal with my own co-dependent behavior.

I could not be in a romantic relationship with someone like my mother- who has severe BPD, but then, I am not suited to be a romantic partner to her. My father, on the other hand, was. He was not always happy with her, but I believe overall, he was. I think they did have their special moments together.

As WW said, probably nobody is happy all the time. I guess one has to look at the whole picture.

Yes.   My relationship is emotionally stable and I am happy.   As waverider mentioned no one is happy 100% of the time and every relationship has some challenges.   There are no extremes of emotion in our relationship, no extreme highs or the corresponding lows.   We communicate well together.   We have made some adjustments in how we approach things.   Every once and a while, she will dsyregulate about something, which no longer escalates into an argument, and lasts about 45 minutes.   She does struggle with hypomania as she is also diagnosed Bipolar.    I sometimes struggle with depression but we are making it work together.

'ducks

A year ago I couldn't have imagined that I would be as happy as I am now. I was chronically pissed off and totally frustrated with my husband. There's so much more for me to learn here in the lessons, but I've been taking baby steps and by far, the most important lesson I've learned is not to invalidate. I still catch myself doing that sometimes, but then I try to repair it when I can. All in all, this has helped our relationship's "emotional bank account." And those minor slip-ups on my part are much more easily forgiven by him. Another thing, now that I've cleared out a decade of anger and frustration--although still little remnants re-emerge for me, is that I can see ways I truly appreciate him and the good things he brings to my life. Appreciation is so important, and when you're chronically angry, it's absent.

Hanging, how long do they dysregulate for?

Cat:

This is all really helpful advice and a good perspective on the matter. I am really angry on the inside often. If it's not him hating my friends, it being annoyed how much I work, or how much money were not making or... .Or... .Or... .And yes you can imagine the confusion, anger and resentment that has been built up inside of me.

I know I need to practice skills more. I will be joining h Bpd in his DBT therapy every so often to learn to use them. But I find it hard to validate feelings he's having that are flat out lies. Often when he is feeling insignificant he will make statements like I'm not good at the job or you're saying I don't know what I'm doing... .And I am like no, I've never said that, I always tell you how quick you are to learn and how much of a genius you are. It's very hard to validate flat out lies. Because in me teaching him new skills for our business (based off my know-how) I run into these feeling of his often. He states a lot I'm retarded or stupid. - those two words have never been in my list of adjectives for him so it's hard to validate those lies his head is telling him that I feel towards him.

I struggle with critique that I do with normal training and just letting him mess up, but our costs are tight being a new business so mastering and perfecting the job during the training is the goal. But in correcting or fixing the way he is doing something it becomes a full out escalation event - him putting me down and getting slightly emotionally abusive and upset for the rest of the evening up to three days after the matter- and this can happen just from saying you need to crimp the sides of that tighter.

Man my chef who trained me would smack our hands if we were using the wrong technique and say no stop that. And show us how to do it right. And you have to just listen. And in the end you did the job right. (It was a light smack on the hand, not hurtful in any way)

It's just a very confusing thing for me to wrap my head around.

Joem,

Before therapy at the DBT center it was 2-3 Times per week or once every week and a half. Now after therapy he hasn't dysregulated since July 12, almost 5 months, this is big!

But when he does it lasts maybe 20 minutes to 45 of freaking out (depending how invested I get in the argument or if he pushed the right buttons and I can't keep my cool) if I keep my cool or walk away I can control the length of time he escalates to or de-escalates, then he leaves for hours, then silent treatment, then sulking for a day or night, then extremely needy or clingy for a day or two.

Hanging : I can understand why you're not happy. DBT helps. In my class you can not be the sexual partner of another member. I noticed you said you were joining him in his. Do you think it might be better to take your own?

Unicorn,

I don't know his therapist suggested I go every so often so that I can express struggles and I also think to know what's really happening in our home because my husband doesn't really open up fully to what's really happening. My husband is Bpd. I have my own therapist for my anxiety and depression.

Ok your therapist has a different policy about sexual partners being in the same group.

I've brought my partner to some of my therapy sessions but have not been to his.

Hanging,

I, too, worked with my first husband (BPD/NPD) in a food business. He would get mad at me and walk off the job, leaving me to finish up by myself for hours. Very challenging to work with a spouse with a personality disorder.

My current husband is a "city boy" and I'm a "country girl" and we live on rural property. There's so many things I know how to do: fixing things, animal care, building stuff, hard physical labor. All that is foreign to him and not something he wants to be involved with. Unfortunately when things break, or an animal needs medication, sometimes I need a helping hand. When this happens, lots of times he starts to dysregulate because I'm telling him what I need him to do. So often he's completely clueless. Because he feels inept, he accesses his "shame burden" and in his mind, I become some tyrant, even though what I'm saying is "Hand me that big wrench."

I too, had mentors along the way that didn't suffer fools and I really appreciated learning how to do things. Unfortunately, my husband interprets instruction as criticism and shaming, rather than information. It really gets in the way when you need to get something done.

I am down right miserable... .

as WW stated


He has referred to the "little nugget" in past posts. I have been looking for that nugget for the past two years. I think I have lost hope in finding it. Have been married to her for 4 years now, together 4 1/2. This past Friday was a major turning point for me as far as losing hope.

It is the first time she really physically hit me. Hit me in the temple. I let her know it didn't hurt. I felt it for over a day and it was a reminder of where things are really headed. After 4 years of having my character and integrity degraded, I can only take so much of it. Personality disorder or not. I believe I have reached my threshold.

The only thing I can figure is that the people who stay in these relationships find that ONE thing that keeps them hanging in there. I have lost myself and I have to find my way back up. I never wanted to hurt her emotionally but I think the only way to find myself is realize she will end up being hurt emotionally. That is hard for me... .to see another person hurt.

I wish you the best in finding your happiness     

Hanging, teaching a pwBPD is hard if your are in a relationship with them. They fear being exposed as useless,in their own eyes, simply by competing (and yes they see it as black and white competing) in doing something they know you can do better.

To be second best, even compared to their "teacher" is failure. I struggle to teach my wife anything it simply gets hand balled back on a "you do it, I'm hopeless at it" attitude. Even the most basic of actions. When she tells herself this enough times eventually all she feels is "I'm hopeless", as that is the criticism she picks out of that little sentence. Thats when the escalation starts.

I cant even teach her what garbage goes in the recycling bin and which goes in the general waste, or stack the dishwasher.

It comes from an insecurity, often drummed into them when they are young, by an overbearing parent possibly, that their efforts to do thing are not up to scratch. So their motivation is to impress rather than achieve the objective for practical reasons. So once they are exposed as not being the expert at something, either by being so, or at least bluffing, the motivation to do the task evaporates and they handball it.

They dont want to make the pastry because it needs to be done, they want to make it to show how good they are at it. If they cant look good then there is no residual motivation to get it done. Showing how good they are is the reward. So they are not giving effort they are buying reward. No reward=no point to it.

My wife will let dirty dishes stack up while playing hours of a game on her iPad. (which I should never say anything about and I don't) If I go to wash the dishes or place them in the dish washer she will be critical of how I stack the dish washer or how I fold the dish rag over the side of the sink when I am finished. My wife usually lets me know when she feels she can do something better than me even though I am doing it without complaining. If I fold the dish rag in half and then lay it over the edge of the sink, I have done it "wrong". She used to throw spoons away that I ate my cereal with because she thought I should use the larger spoons to eat with. She said well if you don't start laying the dish rag over the sink properly I will start throwing them away. 

What she does is let me know from time to time how she appreciates me and then if I ever say anything to her about being critical of me she let's me know that she tells me all the time how much she appreciates me and that I am an A$$ whole for saying anything to her.

WW do you believe this is the case most of time?

Thanks, that explains a lot actually. When coming home from work I'm often surprised that my wife, after having been home all day, has not done a single household-related thing. I end up having to go shopping and then cook dinner.

What she's done during that time are often things to gain external approvement, not to do things that go unnoticed as you say. She's into projects where she can be in control and shine.

And to answer the thread question: no, I'm not happy in the relationship. It's bearable currently as things have improved, but my love for her has not come back.

Cat,

It's good to know someone can relate to all my woes lol - and it's nice that I can also relate to what you are saying. I've definitely experience him checking out, or walking off the job and me having to, sometimes even in tears, finish the business part and try to detach the personal part.

The funny thing is my therapist and another one I had when we live fun Hawaii both feel it's a good focus that both of us can work on together... .Because as much of a burden it is at times, other times it's a goal that we equally work hard for, and it's my main talent and gift and to see him sacrifice free time to attain our goal with my talents is kinda cool - especially with someone who is very "me" focused. I mean don't get me wrong he is a chef as well and it is a mutual dream to own a mom and pop, but the business face is mine. So I have to give him credit for that!

You sound like a bad a$$ chick! I wish I knew how to do all those things you mentioned! My close girlfriend has a farm and I love seeing her use her goats for milk and chickens for eggs... .It's nice to see farm to table in action!

Its very hard to make golden rules for all pwBPD, all the time. The best we can say is that any trait is very commonly to be found.

In my circumstance I think it underlines all motivators, much of it is very subtle though and it goes down to the smallest things. This is what sabotages most attempts to get better, the underlying reason for change is not authentic. This leads to much parroting behavior and apparent "insightfulness".

There is a big difference between being responsible and being seen to be responsible.

By faith,

Thank you for sharing! It has been a little over a year since the knowledge of Bpd and about 8 months of my h Bpd being diagnosed as such.

I suppose my nugget is our business. But yes the ups and downs and back and forths are enough to make a person go mad! I am mad, and angry, and tired. And you're right about the losing yourself to, in my business which is focused around my strengths I find myself daily, and I get to share what I love with people... .That has saved me from getting lost. But on my days off or when I have to walk on egg shells to hang out with my friends I'm like what the uck am I doing?

But it is sad that I can't find that sort of joy in my husband. That what's keeping me is the fact that I haven't drowned in his belittling, disrespect and painting me black. But yes, so many times I ask myself the same sort of thing, why am I allowing this person to degrade me and put me down on a weekly or even daily basis. Why do the simplist things like trying to help someone become the highest form of disrespect and explode... .Because they are saying they're tired and you just want to help speed up the process because the insist on working?

It's all mind blowing and sad, they make us sad, but how sad is it to feel the way they must feel all the time  man!

I hope you also a less stressful journey! It's hard to detach caring for someone you've committed so many years to!

By faith,

My husband Bpd one flipped out because I flipped wishes to dry so that water doesn't pool on the inside... .His way, facing up is the right and only way... .And when I get dishes that the handles aren't scrubbed or the undersides aren't clean, I don't mention it... .I just re-wash it. Lol if I called out everything he didn't do like me, or every imperfection, that may encore WW3 in our home.

Waverider - your information and thoughts are always the most insightful and helpful - thank you 

Great questions that sure got me thinking.  I'm 2 years into my relationship with my BPDgf.  I would say it's not emotionally stable in that I always feel at any time she can blow-up about something and break up, or that she may be looking for a replacement because her insecurity about being abandoned.  By understanding BPD and using validation techniques, our relationship is much more stable with less arguments lately but there's always that thought in my mind that at any time something bad can happen due to her BPD.

Am I happy?  Well sometimes I am very happy especially when she's showing so much love.  During these times of bliss I don't even think of her BPD and am so happy with the relationship but then all of a sudden I will get this unjustified brutal verbal abuse and that gets me so frustrated and feeling terrible and sad, and wonder why do I stay in this relationship and put up with it. 

It's an emotional roller coaster that I'm on and I'm still not decided whether to stay on or get off and I'm not even sure if I do get off whether I can stay off. 

What you learn is that it is not all prevention techniques, as you can't prevent everything only reduce the risk of things getting out of hand by better "maintenance actions" if you like.  You will also gain confidence in containment and repair for those times when things go over the brink.

This ability to put things back on track more readily creates less apprehension about them going wrong in the first place. This goes a long way to reducing stress and anxiety

The biggest mistake I made in owning a business with my first husband was to not separate business from pleasure. I was constantly thinking of new products we could make or talking about employee issues or complaining about something that was going wrong. Though he had lots of issues, my ex could easily separate work from other parts of our life. I could not.

I created and managed a home based business for my first husband. I am never doing that again.

Is your partner a contribution to your happiness or are they the provider?

This is the real difference as to whether it is possible, or not, on the final balance

  I am happy.  I'm also hopeful and confident that my future will be "happier" than things are now.  BPD doesn't have to be "fixed" in order for me to be happy.  My experience with this site and the tools and techniques (and seeing them work to improve things) is a big source of my happiness and hope for the future.  One critical "mindset" that I have gotten from this journey with BPD is that many times I need to "separate" myself from whatever is bothering my wife and let it bother her and let her figure it out.  Yes my "plans" get upset sometimes, but I have a number of "go to" standbys that I can do when BPD gets in the way.  Grabbing a kid or two (or just myself) and going fishing (while my wife figures out her issues) is a great standby activity to do.  Helping kids fish is a great source of happiness.   Last thought:  My nature is to be a "glass half full" kinda guy.  I try to focus on what I have, vice what I don't have.  Sure there are times the BPD thing gets me down.  I don't try to avoid the feelings.  They are real.  Feel them, do some thinking to see if there is a solution or a boundary that can be done better, and then get to work on something "I" can control to improve my situation.  Mindset is critical for long term BPD relationships.  If the focus of your life is how bad the BPD thing is, that is not good for your long term "happiness".                

FF

Cat

Again another true thought! I work on that very very hard! I get super into the business it's a thrill and exciting creating, so yes I am very mindful now to enjoy normal activity, but I have to really be mindful of those things for sure!

Waverider, I've definitely Learned to not rely on the h Bpd for happiness. There are times of happy with him, but I find fulfillment in other things now. I do however wish I could have some real heart to hearts with the man I married without it being about him and his feelings or him just walking away mid sentence. This is definitely not what I imagined marriage to be and find myself still in the depressed/denial stage of grief. Acceptance that this is our lot in life is hard. I do my best to focus on the golden nuggets of his positive attributes he brings to this marriage.

But this is a hard question that I feel I need to mull over more. Small statement but mug thoughts!

Steve

I can very much empathize with you! I felt like I was reading a picture of my own life. Part of me also feels badly due to not knowing ever if I want to stay or go. I feel like how horrible for the other person who is very sensitive and can probably always sense I'm on the fense.

I am happy. With that being said, I am not always happy, and there are times I want to rip my hair out. But, the more tools I learn, the more I practice mindfulness, the more I take myself out of the equation when he is having a dysregulation (IE not taking things personal, not expecting him to be able to do things he can't do), the better it gets. The reasons why I love spending time with him and love him are interwoven with the things that drive me nuts. It's a package deal.

As everyone said, every relationship has it's ups and downs, but a BPD relationship just dips more often, and dips and higher and lower than a 'normal' relationship.

I often wonder if my BPDgf can sense that I'm having thoughts of ending this roller coaster ride.  I always act positive around her even when I'm having doubts and have convinced myself that I am in this permanently unless she initiates a breakup, or cheats in any way.  Weird thing is sometimes I feel like she is on the fence and this feeling occurs when she is verbally abusive and puts me down or makes completely unjustified accusations of me cheating. I think if she truly thinks I am cheating, why would she still be with me or maybe she will use that to justify her cheating.  When she puts me down I wonder why she would want to be with someone she thinks so lowly of.  I'm now trying to attribute her words as just part of her insecurities and mental illness and trying to be optomistic. 

Steve I can relate to being on the fence. Even though I'm on the staying board I'm still undecided. In my case I'm waiting for something to happen. The question is how long will I wait?

Her words ARE a part of her insecurities. Have you ever heard the phrase, "You don't have to put my light out to make yours shine brighter."? To a pwBPD, you do or your light isn't worth anything.

They do not process negative feelings well (or positive, for that matter). It's not meant to be abusive to us, rather it's a reflection of the turmoil going on inside them. It took me a long time to learn to step back and listen to what my husband is NOT saying, rather than what he is. It's still tough sometimes. I still let some of what he might say get to me. But when i can refocus my mind, the hurt sheds off. He is mentally ill. He does not think the way I think. I cannot expect him to.

Cold ethyl, do you ever get tired of having to have compassion for a mentally ill person?

Of course I do. Even caregivers of physically disabled people get tired sometimes. But, my son is Asperger's, my brother is paranoid schizophrenic, and my husband is BPD. I have dealt with the mentally ill my whole life. What makes a difference to me with whether or not someone is actively trying to get better. Right now, my husband does. He has opened up and talked so much more than I ever expected. He now admits fault when he couldn't previously. He is respecting boundaries. He works with me on our relationship and we continue to grow together as people.

That's more than most 'normal' spouses are capable of.

I put myself in his shoes. I would hope like heck someone would be there to love and care about me if I was having those kinds of issues. I can't imagine what he goes through, what my son goes through, what my brother goes through, etc.

When I start to feel burnt out, I take time for me. I go out doing some photography alone for an afternoon, or I play some video games, or I go to the local bookstore and enjoy a nice coffee and novel.

It's important to take care of yourself, too.

I'm in the same boat, waiting for something to happen.  I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic and trying my best to make things work but at the same time I'm reading the other boards on recovering or getting over a BPD relationship and trying to get myself strong and learning how to keep NC in case we do break up again.  I don't want to be in a recycled again.  I guess I'm waiting for something bad to happen, I know she won't get better and that we live happily ever after.  The most positive I can expect is to manage any of her outbursts, and for me to not take her verbal abuse personally and for the relationship to be slightly better.  I also think I don't want to get married to her and be 'stuck' if she does do bad things.  Eventually she'll want to be married, maybe early next year, so I am waiting to see what will happen to our relationship then.  

So what are you waiting for or expecting?

I think happiness is directly related to the level of gratitude we experience. 

Regardless of the circumstance there is always something to be grateful for and thus always something to be happy about.

Hence my quote on here haha

Yes I hear you and my SO is doing things to improve like taking medication and rebuilding a relationship with his family. He's not in therapy or DBT but at least he's doing some things, so I can't totally complain.

Hi Steve, I take it you're not familiar with my story. I'm waiting for my SO to divorce and relocate. Its been 3 years.

Steve,

Just remember a lot of what she's accusing you of doing is really what she feels about herself. Remember a lot of their stuff they pin on you is actually projection.

My h Bpd totally will be escalating and while he is losing it to the point of shaking, he will be yelling at me "you're escalating." While I'm calmly sitting staring at him like What the heck?

Moselle that's a nice quote, but even military men in battle suffer from PTSD under constant stress. I think happiness is yes the way you perceive things and what you chose to focus on, but it's very hard to remain content while someone you spend the majority of your time with is putting you down. Especially if they are not getting help. I am lucky mine is. But if it goes back to like before I don't think any person would be able to be happy in a emotionally abusive environment.

         I agree with this statement.  That is why boundaries are important.  Each person has a choice, and a responsibility for what environment they chose to be in.          

FF

Exactly. That was a huge boundary that I put into place that he does respect. No more name calling. When he starts, I tell him I care about what he is thinking and feeling but I will not listen if he is going to be rude. If he continues, I tell him I am going to leave until he decides to be civil, and I will be back in 15 minutes. If he is calm, we will talk again.

So far, twice I've had to threaten to walk out of the room (but didn't have to actually do it), and both times he stopped his name calling. This has been over a year period, so that's pretty good.

         Way to go!   |iiii   Unfortunately, I tolerated name calling for far to long.  I just didn't know better.  I still occasionally have to walk out.  My walking out has made things much, much better.          

FF

*nods* I really was surprised at how quickly he took to the boundary. Coming to this site has been a lifesaver for me.  I didn't know before coming here that pwBPD actually prefer to have someone setting down what is and is not acceptable. He bucks and fights sometimes... .but wow it's such a huge difference than in the beginning.

This is the irony, they dont have structure or consistency, as a result they need others to provide this. meanwhile they do everything to undermine your structure and stability, then they disrespect the persona they turned you into...

ie They trash what they need, then complain when its trashed...

In order to press on through this you need self confidence and determination. This is why you need your head outside the relationship, as conditions within are not conducive for building that ability

That fits right into the other thread about getting them to help with chores. They complain about the mess... .but make the mess and don't clean themselves. Then, they blame you for it.

This is quite profound and true!

Thanks Waverider, you have just cast a ray of light on my understanding.

My structure and stability is coming back... .slowly... .

but surely.☺

I never knew I was such a taskmaster, a perfectionist, so driven until I got together with a pwBPD.  :)  I certainly don't see any of those qualities in myself. Rather I think of myself as quite lazy.  *)

They dont always latch on to ideal role models either, in fact those they should latch on to probably would'nt get involved the first place... which is a whole new topic... :)

*mod*

The topic of discussion has reached it's post limit and is now locked. Its a worthwhile topic and you can start a similar or new topic. Thanks.