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I'd thought yesterday was an "okay" day for BPDh and I. I mean, he ignored me for most of the day, but there weren't any conflicts. Well, right before bedtime, my 19 year old daughter asked to talk to me. She had huge eyes, and she told me she thinks BPDh hurt my 12 year old cat. She heard BPDh say "you F-ing, worthless, piece of sh#t", and she heard my cat crying loudly.

What's weird is that I'd just asked BPDh just that morning if he wanted me to get rid of my cats, because he hates them(less so the one HE adopted), and he mocked me and said "you'd never get rid of Chester". I've had him 12 years, and he's a good cat. No litter issues, he's just good.

So when I went and asked BPDh about if he'd hurt the cat, he got angry, and said he didn't hurt the cat. He said he didn't even touch him. Now, I don't believe him. The cat was downstairs, hiding and cowering, and this IS NOT a timid cat with anyone except BPDh. This cat can still back my now17 year old son in a corner when they play.

He then went on to tell me he wants me to leave, to just get out, and that he's been trying to tell me he wants a divorce. He does this every year about this time. He gets super depressed, super mean and volatile, and he wants out of the marriage. Last year was the first year he actually physically left, and I filed for divorce(because he refused to come back... .he's still mad that I filed, although he'd seen his attorney to file). We reconciled, things were so much better for a while, he was bragging to people how glad he was I'd taken him back, but now he's back to saying it's all my fault, and that I never change.

Now, I've ACTIVELY worked on the things he's asked me too, but even though there is clear evidence, he denies it. I've stopped calling his girls derogatory names, and it's been two months. Believe me, I've kept track. These adult girls of his are breaking his heart, because they refuse to see him as long as he's married to me. Yet I'm the only one he takes his rage and blame out on. I've apologized to these mean girls for things I didn't do, I've kept the door open, and tried for peace over and over. They just want BPDh all to themselves, and they want total control of him like they used to have.

He left me for them before, and I'm afraid he's about to do it again. He gets depressed, and he can't see ANY good in me, or in our marriage. And frankly, his kids will welcome him back with open arms if he leaves me, and he knows that.

What do I do about my cat? He already drove my son off, and he's now living with my parents. BPDh has me, a wife that has great compassion for him, and wants to be there for him, but he just pushes me away. He's having issues with people at work, his kids want nothing to do with him(except his son if he wants money), and he's pushing ME away, the only one who shows him true understanding and acceptance.

He says he'll get help for the depression, but if I ask him about it, he'll explode on me. How do I handle this? Do I give him his way and give up my cat to my parents? How far can I let him keep pushing me and controlling me, just because I'm scared?

Help, please!

  Uggg, this is a horrible situation to be in.  On the one hand, you know what happened.  On the other hand, there is not an eye witness.  There is also DV history here.  My understanding (ok it's really my guess, but I think it's an informed one) is that people that have crossed the line into hurting people will also hurt animals.  OK, please have another talk with him.  Don't challenge him, but ask him to describe the incident.  What was the cat doing crying out?  I've been around cats (as have you).  I've seen (heard) cats vocalize when they feel threatened but aren't actually touched.  So, the more I think about it, it is possible that they were having a standoff.  Hubby cussing and "threatening" the cat and the cat "vocalizing" or "screaming" and the cat never got touched.  It's possible.  I see it more in cat to cat behavior, but I have seen it in cat to human.  There is lots in this post, but somehow figuring out if it was physical or verbal would seem to be next step.                     

FF  

I am sorry that he is putting your though this.

I think when it comes to creatures that need to be protected, ( including children) one has to do what is best for them.

Is it in the best interest of the cat to be there?

From what I have read about how your H dislikes your son, I think you did the best thing for him which is to have him live in a home where he is safe, loved and wanted.

The best place for the cat is to be where the cat is safe, loved and wanted.

You have chosen this relationship, but your son, and your cat did not.

I think one can look at this as you giving up something ( and it seems that you have) but I also think one has to consider what is in the best interest of the cat.

I know you love your son, and your cat, but I don't think your H does.

I'm sorry he threw you straight into this dilemma. 

Can you leave for your parents' house with your daughter and your cat in order to get some time to sort things through in your mind? Your daughter will need you to take the lead during this crisis, I think.

It is in the interest of kids and animals for their owner/loved one not to send them away in order to maintain a relationship with someone who hurts them (physically or emotionally).

I respect that this is a Staying-themed board, but saying that it is in the best interest of son or cat to separate them from mom/primary caretaker seems to miss the obvious solution that is actually in both son's and cat's best interest.  I get that maintaining the r/ship may be what CB wants.  But that is not the same thing as it being in the best interest of the dependents.

CB --  .  I worry for you when you say you are "afraid" he will leave you, after you detail all his nastiness toward you.  You are inventorying all the pieces of you you can give away to keep him happy.  You are proactively offering to give away your cats to make him happy.  I don't think carving off pieces of yourself to make your partner happy is likely to be successful, and meanwhile, you run a real risk of losing yourself.

Well, I'd like to think it was just my cat yowling at BPDh to "back off", but I've never seen him do that to anyone other than my son while playing. With BPDh he just cowers, and runs and acts scared. Which is so unlike, my feisty cat. He's sort of a bully outside, so I keep him inside. I've never not had a cat, from the time I was born, our cat slept near my bed.

BPDh's story just doesn't ring true. Plus, he lies to save himself all the time(wish he'd realize this just makes trust impossible, and drives people away), and I really feel he did touch/harm/hurt my cat in some way. He said he was trying to get both cats into the finished basement, which also doesn't make any sense. The cats roam the house at night, and we never lock them up. Why would he be trying to get them to go in the basement? He's never done that before, and it was right before bed. There isn't even a door to keep them down there, as both levels are living space. The story was just so ludicrous, I didn't even think to ask him why he wanted the cats down there, as there is no way to keep them down there.

I didn't hear any of this, but my 19 year old daughter is convinced he hurt the cat. She too has always been around cats, and is a huge cat lover. She knows all our cats different cries, and I trust her when she said it sounded like BPDh was hurting the cat.

I guess I probably need to consider letting my cat go stay with my parents. The cat is really good at staying away from BPDh most times, in fact, he slinks as far away from him as possible, and it's sad to watch. It's becoming sadly obvious to me that BPDh lacks self control, and I can't even trust him around my cat. I'm just heartbroken because this feels like another loss. I keep having to give up people and now animals I love, just to make BPDh "happy". No wait, he's never happy. It's about power and control. Simple as that.

We cross-posted.  I think we pretty much said the same thing.  I think your conclusion about the futility of making him happy by sacrificing aspects of yourself that mean a lot to you ("I've always had a cat" is very important.  If it won't work, why pursue that approach?  Especially if it costs you so much?

I'm not scared of losing myself this go round. I definitely was there before we split up last year. My son now living with my parents, was a hard, hard choice to make. I miss him every day, but in some ways, our relationship is better. He used to be terribly disrespectful of me, and now when we spend time, he's much, much more respectful. I see him often, it's just not every day like I'd like. I absolutely know though that he's better off not being around BPDh, and he wanted to finish high school at the school he'd always attended. It was actually my son who told me to save my marriage, and my daughter who lives with us, who told me not to take BPDh back! Weird that they now have a super close relationship. BPDh will never be close to my son. He doesn't seem to ever change his views of people, or forgive, or see that people can do better.

I don't view it as losing myself, but I do feel he's trying to isolate me. I feel he's trying to make me make choices to see how much I love him? Talk about insecurity. I feel he is really insecure, but he tries to hide it. I feel his huge need for control, is so he can make his world feel "safe" too. He's a bully, but I don't think he sees it that way. I just try to remember that while he seems cruel to me at times, that inside, he's probably really hurting. Or scared, or lacks the skills to deal with his emotions. Heck, I don't even think he's in touch with his emotions other than rage, and self pity.

I don't want to give up my cat, but I will if I think he's being put at risk. I can't watch him 24/7, and although BPDh isn't home all that much, I'd hate for anything to happen.

I always worry when animals are harmed. Firstly for the animals but secondly what this actually says about the person. The first thing I think of when someone hurts an animal is ASPD.

Is your husband definitely BPD?

I agree with patientandclear in principal, but in this case, the son has been sent to live with his grandparents a while back. He is a teenager. I am not speaking about the idea of sending him there to maintain a relationship- but sending him there rather than live with a stepfather who is hostile to him.

If the cat is being abused ( this has not been established at this point)- then it may be something to consider for the sake of the cat.

The situation of giving up what is important to you to maintain a relationship is an important topic, and this involves CB and her H. However, a cat and a child did not choose this circumstance. Neither choice- to send them to live with grandparents, or not, is a perfect choice, but their own safety - both emotional and physical- is a separate consideration.

CB's H seems to be creating a situation where CB needs to make choices: his family or her family, her kids, his kids, her son, the cat. This is a difficult situation, but it involves him and CB. If the son /cat/family are drawn into this, then they become part of something they didn't choose.

  OK, let's deal with the factual side of things first.  From the story, there is no way to tell if BPDh hurt the cat.    One reason I relayed the story is that we have a 10 year old cat that is very reclusive and "clingy" to oldest daughter.  It is so rare to ever hear any vocalization from her.  She had some kind of encounter with another cat (not ours) and I was shocked at the sound our cat made.  NEVER have I heard that, or heard of that before.  I would drop any and all thinking of what actually happened to the cat.    Why would you stay in a situation where you wouldn't consider having your loved ones stay  Please don't rush to answer this.  Consider this carefully.  There is a pattern here in your life  You have a choice to make to continue that pattern or not.    Can you describe the choice that I am referencing about your loved ones and your choice to stay in your r/s?                

FF  

FF put his finger on what I was circling around, with the question about staying in circumstances where it is not safe to leave loved ones.

CB--undoubtedly your H is putting you in situations to give up things you care about "for him" due to his insecurity. He is looking for proof of love. I know from experience (not with my recent BPD ex but from my abusive ex H) that there is no bottom to that project. I finally drew the line at a friend that my ex H felt threatened by. I knew if I gave that up, I would indeed be giving up a big piece of me. I remember vividly how afraid I was to draw that line and insist that I was keeping the friend, and if he wanted to stay nonetheless, great, but I was done with the model of sacrificing important things to me in a futile effort to reassure my H.

Your H is doing these things out of fear and insecurity, no doubt, but that doesn't mean appeasing will work, and the cost of that approach is huge.

CB, I really commend you for how truthful you are with yourself. It was hard for me while still in my marriage to see things as clearly as you see them. I know you want it to be possible to find some way for the relationship to be what you believe it can be. 

               Let's also be clear that appeasing has a very low chance of working and it hasn't worked up until this point.  Basically, appeasing doesn't work.  In fact, it usually makes things worse.  Because they will continually want more in order to satisfy their dysfunctional desire to feel "secure" that you love them.                

FF

This is a topic that I think was discussed on other threads concerning the son going to live with grandparents.

This is a pattern that worked for my mother with BPD. Growing up, we were presented with this choice: " If you don't do this, mother will leave". This being a number of things: behaving, doing what she asked, but also involved once giving up a pet " If we don't get rid of the pet, mother will leave".

Well what kind of choice is that for a child? Of course I had to give up the pet. I didn't have the choice to keep the pet and have mom leave. As a younger child, I was terrified of the idea that mom would leave.

This behavior worked for my mother, because we would do anything she wanted to keep her from leaving.

I know how it feels to give up parts of yourself to stay in a relationship. However, I think we all have a bottom line whatever that is- our kids, our pets, our families, perhaps a value such as fidelity or honesty. Maybe that bottom line is where some people haven't encountered it yet, but when we do, we know we have to take a stand for that part of us we just can't give up. If we have a relationship that has established that pattern, then making changes can be difficult. If the SO's behavior has worked for them, and then it doesn't- they may keep trying it ( extinction burst).

The partner also has a choice- to stay, leave, adjust to the new changes, not adjust and fight them. Taking a stand for what is important to us also involves that risk.

  I wanted to separate this out so as not to confuse with other posts.  The points made are different but very important.  You obviously like cats.  It appears that has not been hidden and was a known issue going into the marriage.  You regretted ( and it's obvious it is still a raw wound) your choice to have your son move out.  I believe you will also regret making choice to move cats out.  I'm not the biggest "pet guy".  They are ok, but I would be fine without them.  My wife would not.  I knew this from the moment I met her.  It would be wrong of me to try to get rid of pets all-together.    Think long and hard about what you are considering giving up.  Also consider that it is fine for him to want you to give that up.  He is not wrong if that is his desire.    As long as there was no deception about your status as a pet person going in the marriage this is a big deal.  It's part of you.                

FF      

Patricia Evans books have a model for these dynamics. In her cases it is a male-female relationship but it could be either gender. The man has an image of his ideal partner - his "Teddy" who conforms to his ideals and is there to sooth his every wish. Teddy is essentially an extension of himself.

The "problem" is that, whoever his "Teddy" is, is a real person- a separate human with his /her own ideas, feelings, and wishes. Each time this person appears differently from "Teddy", the man feels wounded and abandoned, and in Evans' books becomes abusive- acting out of his own pain and also to bring "Teddy" back by hurting her into submission. Often this works because the woman tries very hard to be a good wife and meet the partner's need. However, being that she isn't "Teddy", she is bound to fail at her attempts at some point.

The wife my do this assuming that the husband will reciprocate and do something nice for her or meet her needs, but "Teddy" does not have her own needs because "Teddy" is an extension of him.  Teddy's needs are his needs- his wishes, his priority.

If this is the case, then it isn't about the son, or the cat, but the pattern that seems to be played out each time CB's H wants something, or doesn't want something and this is different from what CB wants. This is inevitable- they are two separate people.

Evan's books give some steps to help with this. I don't recall them immediately, but understanding the dynamics was a help to me.

               And understanding that the real person "teddy" has little to do with fixing it.    I've not read the book, but my guess is the advice is to not take on the responsibility and not take it personally.    Basically to leave the other person to their own devices to sort out their "teddy" within themselves.                

FF

From my experience, cats seem pretty adept at sensing emotions.  My old guy pretty much loves everyone, but when W is in a rage mood or loud, he goes to hide, and gets quite testy with her.  Out year and a half old kitten has been on me like glue since W's suicide attempt, and I don't think that is a coincidence. 

W has at times yelled and screamed at the cats, smacked them, and thrown things at them.  Lately, though, she has been quite lovey with them.  Back when she was nasty to the cats, I almost considered that a breaking point for me.  Violence towards animals is a HUGE red flag. 

Many years ago, an acquaintance was visiting and while we were chatting in the kitchen, my cat was sleeping on a barstool adjacent to my "friend." He decided he wanted to sit there, so he swept the cat off. The cat was so unaccustomed to being treated in this manner that he fell to the floor before he got his feet underneath him. I gave this person a talking to about disrespecting animals and never again invited him to our home. I realize this was a case of obliviousness rather than intentional abuse.

Abusiveness to animals (or people) is a deal breaker for me. One strike and you're out.

How can the decision to send a cat to the grandparent's home be any harder than the decision to send a child there?

If that is the better place for a child, then it is the better place for the cat.

Yes, loving the cat and the child has meaning here, but somehow it was evident that at the grandparents' home- the child was welcome, whereas at his mother's home, only one parent wanted him there. The issue is the conflict in the marriage. If the son had stayed, he may have been the focus of conflict. With the child out of the way, the the conflict moves on to something else.

Said from the perspective of  a teen whose mother would tell her that her parents wanted to send her away. Yes, the teen son said "save your marriage". I would have said the same thing at his age, because I thought going away to college would make their lives better. I was completely shocked to learn from younger siblings that the issues they had continued after I left home.

It's a gift to have a home where you feel chosen and wanted by the adults and are not in the middle of their conflicts. If that is the best place for a child, then why not a cat as well?

  Notwendy, I see where you are going with your thinking.  Not saying it is wrong.  Questions:  After the cat goes, then what is next?  With the kid you have a "one of" situation.  The next decision establishes a pattern that reinforces BPDH's worldview.  Also, from CBs posts I clearly "felt" that she felt bad for making the choice to send her son away and wishes (CB please correct if I am wrong) that she had made a different choice.  Also came through loud and clear that after sending away the kid things didn't get better.  The deal didn't work.  Here is the big question:  If it is not safe for a child and a cat, what is CB doing there?  Please note:  I'm not saying it is a safe environment and I'm not declaring it unsafe, that is ultimately a decision for CB to make.                

FF  

FF, the pattern of appeasement does lead to a "what's next?"  How much to give in is too much?  Is the environment a good place for CB? I don't have the answer to that. I think that is an individual decision that CB has to make.

What I am focusing on is the distinction of who makes the choices here. CB can choose what she wishes to do- what she wishes to live with. However, a child can not make this choice, and neither can a cat.

There are two aspects to this choice.

One is the pattern of giving up something for the relationship.

The other is choosing what is in the best interest of a living creature who can not make a choice.

There could be some different scenarios.

One is to hold ground and the cat stays. That could cause an angry response in CB's husband and the possibility that he would take it out on the cat.

Substitute child for cat and it could possibly be the same thing.

Keeping the cat will not solve the conflict and it will possibly continue, however, holding ground and not giving in has some effect on the situation.


Another is for CB to send cat to grandparents. This won't likely solve the problem and is possibly appeasement , but the cat is safe from abuse.


Perhaps this can also be placed on the victim triangle. If CB gives up the cat, she could feel like a victim. Or, she can decide she is not a victim and made the choice that was best for the cat ( whatever that is) The act of giving up the cat is not what determines who is giving up too much, it is the mindset upon how the decision was made.

Victim role is stepping on the triangle. However, there is a potential real victim here, and that is the cat. Everyone else has choices, but the cat does not. The cat is a small, dependent, and living creature. The H is a grown man.

It is up to CB to decide what is safe for her or not. She may have ways to protect herself that a cat does not. Ultimately, she has a choice to be there or not. However, the cat does not have a choice and depends on his humans to protect him, and she has to choose for him.

The H may have a different threshold for being rough with a human or a cat. It is illegal to assault or murder a human. It isn't illegal ( at least not to the same degree) to do this to a cat. ( but it is horrible).

To be clear, I am not suggesting that sending the cat away is a solution to the conflict. The cat is just the focus of the conflict at the moment. Sending the son to live with grandparents didn't work either. Neither will work because the cat and the child are not the source of the conflict.

However, sending them to live in a place where they are welcome gets them out of the conflict and keeps them safe.

Kinda like the King Solomon and the baby story.

The argument is over the "baby".  (cat)

One solution- to hold ground might put the "baby" in the center of conflict and so "cut it in half".

The other is to give up the "baby" to save it.

I wonder the same. It sounds to be like he could be more ASPD.

A cat on the Karpman drama triangle... .and I thought I'd seen it all. lol

Is this a natural progression? Maybe one day CB will be living at the parents. With her son and cat.

Broadly, I agree with chilibean. There seems to be more going on here than BPD.

One of the things that happens to people in relationships with BPD or ASPD (sociopaths) are the development of "trauma bonds". Which make it very difficult to leave an abuser. Anyone who is interested could look into the book Trauma Bonds, or google the term. There is a lot of stuff out there.

Just about anyone or anything can be drawn onto the triangle for someone who relates to others in that fashion.

However, as adults, we should not take the victim perspective, for we can forget that we have choices, even if they are difficult ones. There is a cost and benefit to being in each of the roles. I think some of us are familiar with the cost and payoff for being in rescuer role, and victim role is often absolved of responsibility for the conflict.

Children, pets and the elderly are particularly vulnerable. They have no choice and they are dependent on the adults on the triangle to take care of them and protect them. The could become true victims- no choice, no benefit from the relationship between the adults when caught in their conflict.

There is often a price and a payoff to being on the triangle. Otherwise, people would not be acting in that fashion.

A romantic relationship, even a difficult one, has a payoff. For some it is the love bombing, or sex, or something between two people. However, cats, children, do not get a payoff from being involved in such a relationship between the two adults. Yet they can get caught in the crossfire, be projected on ,or blamed for problems.

A partner/spouse may have a reason to stay or choose the relationship, however, a child/pet will not benefit from it- or being involved in the drama.

Furthermore, there is a huge size difference between a man and a cat. An angry kick to the cat could be fatal.  

Well, BPDh definitely knew I loved animals, cats especially, when we started dating. I even used to be into dogsledding with a boyfriend, but didn't like the way some dogs were treated. BPDh even let my cat live with him when we were dating, because I couldn't have him where I lived. He lived with him for about six months. I had no idea he hated my cat, but then, I didn't know a LOT of things about BPDh. He acted like he was one person, but he was/is actually another.

My cat has avoided him for years, but I thought maybe BPDh just yelled at him sometime or kicked at him(no contact). Well, my daughter is still talking about the incident today, and saying she's sure that BPDh hurt the cat somehow, and how could anyone do that? She's in college getting her psyche degree, and she's pretty convinced something is seriously wrong with him, which I've known for some time. I strongly suspect he's APD.

My Mom has given me the option for my cat to live with her, but she agrees I have to at some point draw a line with BPDh. I let my son live with my parents because he wanted to finish high school where he'd attended, and because it really was best for him to be away from BPDh. I love my son far, far more than the cat, of course, but I think this is my line in the sand.

BPDh has also wanted me to "give up" a couple male friends I have, and I refused to do that too. I don't see them in person, but they've been my friends before I knew BPDh, and I just wasn't willing to give them up. We talk occasionally, and I'm very transparent, and BPDh can read my texts anytime he wants. I have nothing to hide, and I'm glad I didn't give these friends up.

For now, I'm keeping the cat here. The only way I'll send him to my Mom's would be if I see a pattern, and know he's actually hurting my cat. Also, my son would really love having the cat with him. For now, I'm choosing to stand my ground on this.

You are all right, I can't keep giving in just BPDh's demands, because it will be an endless cycle. I've seen that already.

               There is a lot going on here.  Let's be clear.  We don't know if the cat was hurt, touched or anything.  I'm also assuming that the cat looks fine (please confirm this).  CB, Let's slow down the thinking/deciding.  If you see your hubby hit the cat you will (fill in the blank)                

FF

Forgive me if someone else mentioned this, but it occurs to me that your husband might be jealous of your attachment to your cat. It seems a common thread for pwBPD to destroy relationships that the non has with others and isolate them.

Here's some answers to a few questions:

I don't think BPDh is jealous of the cat, although I could be wrong. I LOVE having the cat around, and am very attached to him, but I'm not one to pet the cat often, or have him sit on my lap, or carry him around. I've never really gotten a jealous vibe off BPDh in regards to the cat.

As to my son, I did actually think it was best for him to not be around BPDh. I love my son, but he can be typically(maybe more than some teens) disrespectful towards me at times, and BPDh just did not deal with it well at all. I thought the fact that BPDh had raised four kids(and I can't imagine they weren't way mouthier than my son, because they are now mean, PD acting, adults), that he'd sort of roll with it. Well, after we'd married, I found out he didn't "roll with" anything. It just escalated, and one time he even put my son against the wall by the scruff of his shirt. This was yet another time my daughter told me of BPDh's abuse. I wasn't there to witness it, but I sure had a say about it after the fact! BPDh never got physical with my son again after that, until the day he threw both my kids out, and I thought he was going after my son, and I stood between them. I got hurt, but I'd die before letting anyone hurt either of my kids. BPDh was acting crazier than I've ever seen anyone act. It was pure, unadulterated rage. I never wanted my son around that again.

My relationship with my son is now much healthier. Yes, I DO still wish I lived with him, but I have to say it was a constant stressor having to worry that BPDh would go off on him, or that my son would mouth off, and I'd be judged for not handling it correctly. My son had anger issues almost from the time he was born, and he was always somewhat of a challenge. He actually got better as he got older, but the teen mouthiness was a huge issue. I do resent BPDh for expecting me to "choose", but I look at my choice as doing the best I could in a bad situation. It almost killed me to move away from my son, and I grieved, and I do resent BPDh for it. I work on that, because resentment is not healthy.

My son is WAY more important than my cat, but I think I've just seen how badly I felt after I moved away from my son, and I don't want to keep letting BPDh give me orders and ultimatums. I may decide to send the cat away, if it's in the CAT'S best interest(if I determine it is unsafe for him).

I did check the cat out, and other than being shook up and scared acting, he's fine. I questioned BPDh more about it today, telling him that my daughter is convinced he hurt the cat(because I know he might not care what I think or feel, but he sure does care what my daughter does). He said he doesn't think he stepped on the cat. Uhm, I've stepped on him before accidentally, and there is no mistaking if I did or didn't!

And I've read Patricia Evans' book. Actually I read if right before I met BPDh, and I had him read it because he had me convinced his ex fit the profile of an abuser too. She does, but I now know BPDh does too. From what I remember, the advice was about not engaging, and staying safe, maybe even leaving.

Oh, and if I ever saw him hurt my cat, the cat would immediately be taken to my parent's house. And I'd do my best to try to get BPDh some help. I think if he's capable of hurting a pet, that I'm looking at way more than BPD. I'd probably really have to consider leaving too, because if someone can hurt a pet they've lived with for years, it doesn't seem far off to get mad enough to hurt a human? I guess I'll have to think about that... .

I think it is a good thing that your son isn't subjected to your H's abuse.

It comes back to choice. You chose this relationship, your son didn't. Whatever positive you see in the relationship, he doesn't get that positive. The man is not his father, and they have no reason to have any relationship whatsoever with each other.

This may not be what you wanted or expected, but it is what it is, and I think it is good that your son isn't living with this.


In a marriage, it is important for the bond between the parents to be strong, however, when the parents are also each invested in the children, this bond doesn't result in triangulation.


Abusive/people with PD's tend to project their issues onto something/someone else. It isn't them. It's usually their SO, their boss, their child, their job, their something else that isn't them. There is also a sense of magical thinking that if the offending object or person changed, or is gone, or the job was different, that they would be fine. However, the problem is them, so it continues in different situations.

Whether this relationship is safe for you or not is up to you to decide. There are benefits ( and costs) of this relationship that are unique to you and your H, but they do not apply to your son or the cat. You are also larger and stronger than the cat.  Yes, your H could hurt you physically, but he could more easily hurt the cat. Emotional abuse on the other hand, does not depend on size. You will make your own choices with the circumstances you have.

  There is a specific issue here that I think has been talked out:  Status of the cat.  There is a long term relationship dynamic for CB to consider if she is happy with or wants to change.  She chooses to give away her power and her husband chooses to take it.  Whenever there is a perception that CB is taking her power back, this causes stress in the r/s because of the dynamic change.  CB, what is the status of going to MC?  Conversations such as what happened to the cat and other "high stakes" conversations are more likely to be successful if moderated by a professional.                

FF

I am likely butting in, however, I did want to make a point... .And will try to be helpful in doing so.

I agree 100% with Notwendy.

However, I see two issues.

1. The possible need to protect the cat.

2. The opinion of a daughter who feels that H may have been abusive.

I haven't heard much about addressing daughter's concerns properly.

I wonder how CB's daughter's perception of what happen fits into this all and how CB' behavior is witnessed and processed by daughter.

I don't have any answer towards this.  Just bringing up for consideration.

Edit: srry CB to speak of you in third person.  I don't like that... .my mind isn't sharp this am... .and my words are sloppy that way.  I do see you're put in an awful and trying position with this situation... .srry!

I find regardless of 'evidence' of cat abuse, a D IS in fact fearful, these feelings are legitimate.  And it may appear D turned to CB for action.

Good point Sunflower,

The discussion of the cat is an entry point to some questions that I think are worth discussing. Posters are bringing their own points of view into the discussion.

I raised the topic of "choice" because I think it is important to distinguish the people/pets who have choices and those who do not.

How children ( even older ones ) perceive the choices their parents make is important. How children perceive the adults and the situation is something to consider too.

Was the daughter's concern validated or minimized? Were her boundaries and values reinforced? This is an important topic. The daughter is seeing her mother and stepfather's relationship and behavior. If she sees abuse- to cats or humans, and this is minimized or invalidated- if her "voice" is diminished- could this set her up to tolerate, minimize abuse in her own relationships?

I think in a sense, it is a powerful move for D to have presented the opinion of:

My gut tells me that H abused the cat, now what mom?

It seems to push you, CB, into a corner to address something her gut is experiencing.

Any move you make, will be a loud and powerful one.

Even an absence of appearing to make any move at all... .will likely be loudly heard as a powerful move.

I feel D is challenging where you draw the line... .

Do we respond to our gut?

Do we need to wait for 'proof?'

Do we say no to emotional abuse, or wait for a strike?

Etc.

               Interesting way to look at it.  D19 is an adult and can make own choices.  However, I'm 46 and I still pay attention to what my parents do.  I'm also interested in "why" they do things.    My own .02cents worth on parenting is that whatever CB decides to do here that there are two very separate points/explanations given to D19.  1.  My decision is (describe action) 2.  This is why (describe this)  Be clear that disagreement is OK, that you are not looking for her to agree, but that the prime concern is that she understand the reality of CBs decision making process.    I find it really helpful to get to know people and how and why they make decisions.  That way when faced with a decision to make I can think through this is what my Dad would most likely do, this is what Notwendy would most likely do, Grey Kitty, etc etc  You have touchpoints to guide your own decision making.  Last thought that needs some help from the group.  I believe it would be really helpful if D19 and CB get on same page and approach hubby as united front, in a non-accusatory way.  1.  Make it clear you are not accusing but are expressing a fear/concern. 2.  You heard the cat "screaming" (or however you describe it) and it had something to do with hubby. 3.  We are looking for solutions to reduce tension that is obviously present for cat, d19, and CB.  Good idea to ask and not "tell" or suggest that hubby feels a certain way.  Thoughts?                

FF

This 'united front' in a 'non accusatory way' is an oxymoron in the mind of a PD person.  A 'united front' is likely to cause him to react as tho he was ganged up on.  He will feel justified to lash out.  Imo.

If someone IS being a bully.  I have always found it better to decide without their awareness what to do to protect myself or another.  Confronting them only provides an opportunity to try to control and change my mind.  It makes it seem like dealing with potential abuse is a collaborative effort which 'should' include the potential abuser... .it is not.

I think it is better addressed with guidance re boundaries.

I also think the cats reaction is valid... .as well as the daughters reaction... .as well as CB reaction and feelings of fear.

Fear can be addressed, boundaries can be set... .without 'proof.'

The proof is... .people feel threatened in some way.

Boundaries and actions can be set on that, no?

i bring up choices and examples because of my own experience.

Some of the issues I have wrestled with as a child of a mother with BPD:

Why did Dad excuse behaviors on her part that were inexcusable if I were to do them? Why would I get punished for doing/saying something that upset her, yet she was allowed to do/say basically whatever she wanted to with me, or other family members- even if what she wanted to do/say was hurtful?

Why- if I spoke the truth- that mother was being abusive to someone- Dad, me, siblings- was my impression silenced/ignored/punished?


FWIW- we had to give up a family pet for her. We were told we had to give it up so that mother wouldn't leave. The choice was, the pet or mom. We were little, so we, in tears, terrified that mom would leave us, gave up the pet.

A question that I don't know the answer to but, given the choice, would dad have given us up for mom? The fact that this is something I wonder about is a clue to how secure we felt as kids in that family.

I was taught, either directly or indirectly, that to be loved, or cared for, I had better be very very good all the time and not upset anyone.

Kudos to you for bringing this difficult situation to these boards to discuss, CB. Others are sure to be seeing themselves in your questions.

In this general family dynamic, it's often the teenage son who intervenes at some point to protect his mother, his sister, or an animal from an abusive adult male, isn't it?  (Often with disastrous consequences, so I agree it's a good thing your son is not there.)

Have things changed in the household since your son left? Has your daughter begun to step into the protector role? Her role until this moment has seemed to be a very different one, from what you've described.

I can't help but see danger lurking for everyone in the home now. And definitely believe he hurt the cat, as a proxy for hurting you.

ADDED: CB, I also wouldn't challenge your husband directly at this time. Things seem too volatile.

I agree on the idea of choices.

One choice can be... .

The cat feels intimidated.  Let's allow the cat a place to live where the cat feels more comfortable.  This seems to send a good message... .and resolves the issue.

(Yet FF may allude to a bigger issue... .I think baby steps and simplifying the issue to the cat is a good movement.)

_{However, this is where I am stumped with the possibilities and boundaries and why I peek in here on the staying board to learn from all here who are pro's at that part.  So I'm interested how others work this out.}

I think this is a winning strategy and will buy you more time to work on other issues.

               If there is/has been verifiable improvement as a result of CB choosing to have the son live somewhere else, then I may grudgingly go along with this.    My impression of CB's story is that there was no improvement.  My memory of her story would lead me to argue it made the situation worse.  CB please clarify.    But, let's be clear here.  The issue is not the cat or where the cat lives  It would be one thing if this was a brand new situation, newlyweds.  That is not the case.  CB and her husband have chosen a relationship dynamic that seems fairly stable (very different from saying it is good) for many years.                

FF

I'd like to clarify my post:

I do not think the situation in the home has improved since the son's absence. I only think that it is better for the son not to be in the home, as he would be the natural candidate for physically challenging CB's husband.

               This may be true.  And CB and her daughter should have a reality check to see if they have the skills to approach the hubby in a (from our point of view) solution focused/non-accusatory way.  Just because there is a chance a pwBPD may twist something, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.  Especially when the situation is unclear.  Give them a chance to communicate.  He has denied it, so go with that.  The issue is not the event, it is the feelings of D19 and CB.  Serious consideration needs to be given to how a pwBPD would view things if he didn't touch the cat, the cat vocalizes, the other people in the house are now "after" him for something he actually didn't do.  Talk about a nuclear situation, So the boundaries and discussion should be appropriate for the situation where we don't know.  I'm all for boundaries and if he is not receptive to a discussion, then that is the only tool left.  And, to be clear.  I think he probably did "do something" to the cat.  But figuring that out via discussion/interrogation (in his mind) is going to cause way more damage (IMO) than a solution focused discussion on what the people living in the house can do to lower "feelings of tension" or some other appropriate label.  All parties should have the opportunity to suggest steps they can take to reduce tension.                  

FF

               Completely agree.    If the son is not able to refrain from going physical, he needs to be somewhere else.  And, most teenagers I know don't possess those skills.  Since CB has described him as "mouthy" my guess is that he would be an above average candidate to push hubbies buttons/try to make the world conform to his teenage mind.                

FF

  And I think there are a couple different "levels" of issue here that perhaps need to be understood better.  Not that I'm saying any of these are ok.  I think a hubby that is reactive to a teenager pushing his buttons is one thing.  I think a hubby that finds a cat in his way and roughly moves the cat is another thing.   I suspect cat has figured this out and will be fine.  I think a hubby that gets mad, seeks out a cat to take out his anger is a completely different thing, much, much worse.  Again, none of these are ok.                

FF

I'm not sure evaluating things from the perspective of what hubby did or his intentions/motivations... .helps simplify things. It feels complicating to them. That is unknown speculation... .not sure how it would be helpful to determine.  The result tho... .IS a known.

I like how Notwendy focuses on what IS known... .

Cat appears intimidated and fearful

D appears cat was intimidated and fearful

CB feels what she feels.

I feel addressing it from the angle of hubby's intent... .could be a never ending unresolvable loop.


A value can be that it is every individuals responsibility to find a place of comfort for themself vs intimidation.  Except in the event that person is a minor, or pet, then they may require the assistance of another.

A boundary can maybe be... .when I feel fearful... .I can ________, which helps me feel less fearful.

D, can simply avoid situations.

The cat IS trying to avoid situations, yet still appears intimidated.  May need help.

Caution:  I have experienced persons who are enraged at me when I am fearful and take a 'victim's stance' appearing like I need to protect myself in any way.  It has been received as an insult to my perpetrator... .thus 'forcing' him to the persecutor side of the triangle.

To me, the elephant in the room is the daughter's perception that the H has harmed the cat.

If nothing changes, then what is communicated to the daughter is that the H can do whatever he pleases without consequences, which, from the writing of CB, I assume is the reality.

This puts the female members of the household in a victim stance.

I actually did ask him about the cat incident last night, sharing with him that my daughter is still asking me about it. Neither of us think he seriously hurt the cat, but we can't rule out that he may want to. I think she'd more trying to reason out what's wrong with BPDh. She's taking a ton of psych classes, and we all get "diagnosed" at times. She has not stepped into any type of protective role. In fact, she's quite happy being able to lead BPDh around by the nose. For some odd reason, maybe because they are both hotheads, and difficult, they have this mutual respect thing going on. In fact, my daughter is much more likely to be rude or confrontational with BPDh than he ever is to her. He gets all worried and upset if she's mad at him. It's the total opposite of how he is with me. Of course, he was seems to have been the same way with his kids, so I think my daughter is filling a void for him.

My daughter knows I'll do what I think is best. She knows I'd never keep the cat here if I thought BPDh would really hurt him. I just feel I have to have a line in the sand somewhere.

Like Formflier, I often wonder what my parents would do, or I seek out their advice. I'm 47, but I have two really solid, dependable, smart parents. I was raised in a pretty functional family. All this is just baffling to me. I feel like I've spent my life surrounded by difficult people, starting with my sister who was 10 years older than me. I try to please, they get mad, I try to do damage control. It has to stop somewhere, and I'm working really hard on having boundaries. The issues are everyone always seems to be stronger willed than me, or maybe I'm just always more willing to compromise(I think this makes me stronger than them, actually). I'm finding that there are some things though that I'm unwilling to compromise on, and yet they keep pushing.

It's just sad that pwPD keep trying to have us prove things, or put us in a position where we have to make tough choices. BPDh has backed down on the cat issue for now. He said he changed his mind, and I don't have to "get rid of my cat".

And no, this isn't really just about the cat. It's about the fact that he keeps putting me in this same position over and over. ":)o this or else we are done". It's seriously sick. I see it is, I just haven't figured out how to deal with it in a totally healthy way. I mean, how do you negotiate with a terrorist? It's like he's an emotional terrorist. Maybe that's harsh, but that's how I've come to see him, even though I do have compassion for him.

Caution:  I have experienced persons who are enraged at me when I am fearful and take a 'victim's stance' appearing like I need to protect myself in any way.  It has been received as an insult to my perpetrator... .thus 'forcing' him to the persecutor side of the triangle.




Yes.

In my mother's situation, there can only be one victim. Her. So if we act as if she has hurt us, it enrages her. It also causes a dissociation - she can not process that she may be the one hurting us.

The day after one of my mother's night time rages she would act as if nothing happened. I don't think she remembers- I think she was in such a dissociated state that it didn't happen to her. Also, her shame reaction is so strong that she can erase such events, like a dry erase board.

We were not allowed to say anything about it-not to her, not my father, not anyone. They would get angry at us and tell us it didn't happen or say we were not allowed to mention it.


At the time of the angry rages, I believe the person perceives themselves as my victim and they are fighting back at me.  It is very interesting to hear my mother speak of some situations where I thought Dad was the victim ,but she is completely convinced that she is the victim.

CB, I think it has been said that you don't negotiate with a terrorist.

If negotiation is not possible, it may come down to you making a choice. That isn't an easy choice, but so many relationship choices are not easy.

We all have something that is non-negotiable. Perhaps for some, they have not encountered that non-negotiable or they don't know what their non-negotiable is. For others, that non-negotiable may be infidelity, physical abuse, criminal behavior...

For some relationships, the couple doesn't encounter a non-negotiable. Each person knows what that is and respects it, or it is a mutual value. If it happens that someone crosses a non-negotiable boundary, then the other person is left with a tough choice- accept the behavior or not, but not accepting it can risk the relationship.

For instance, infidelity is a deal breaker in my marriage. It is a strong value for both of us. For my H, I know it would be unforgivable. It would end the marriage. However, that isn't the reason I don't cheat on him. It's an internal value for me, and so I don't do it in order to respect my values. Someone else may choose to respect a boundary out of not wishing to hurt the relationship.

Other people may not feel this is a deal breaker. Some people may be OK with an open marriage. The point is, your deal breakers are yours. When, and if your relationship encounters a deal breaker, then you would be faced with a choice.

It could be the cat, or the child, or maybe something else. However, I think you will know what that is if it happens.

Also, the choose this ( cat, child, holiday, whatever) or me, and if you don't give this up I will leave tactic is one that is used because it works! It only works for the person doing this if he or she knows that the choice to give up the relationship is not an option. Hence mother could use it on us kids because she knew we had no choice in the matter.

She doesn't use that one on me now    Not that she is in fear, my relationship with her is voluntary. I choose to be in a relationship with her. However, I think she is also invested in the relationship and would not put it on the line, knowing that I do have a choice.

CB, your H has some investment in the relationship too. Would he give you this choice if he believed you might choose the other choice- and not him?

Well, I don't feel like a victim, because I choose to stay, and I do feel he has a mental disorder of some nature. If I really thought he'd hurt the cat, the cat would already be at my Mom's house.

I don't think he does this because it always works, but I do think it could be a case of me intermittently reinforcing it. I've sometimes given in to him, so he keeps trying it. See, I've tended to think of it as "marriage takes compromise", yet I think he sees it(or just feels the need) to have control. I think he views every compromise I've made as me "giving in". Plus, I don't always compromise. I said no to his desire for a threesome(this totally goes against my morals). No matter how much he complained, I won the TP war of which direction the TP goes on the roll(I'm home more, and I change the roll). But I am a huge believer in compromise, and when he's asked ME to work on an issue, I'll knock myself out trying. Maybe he sees this as weakness, instead of as just being a good partner?

I don't know. I thought I had all this BPD/NPD stuff mostly figured out. Not that I could change it, but that I could circumnavigate, and work on ME, and not "make him worse", radically accept that only he can change him, and it may always be this way. It just seems that the more accepting I am, even while holding a few boundaries, that he keeps trying to up the ante.

He thrives on chaos, which is why he's having issues at work, issues with his kids(although the reason they are mad is truly not  his fault, they have their own control issues), and issues with ME.

We do plan on getting back in MC, but I also dread that. Last bout went horribly, and we got nowhere because he won't work ANY issues. He just wants to tattle, take zero responsibility, and have me work on things he views as MY issues(and I'm always working on imagined issues he thinks I have). He takes zero responsibility for verbal or physical abuse, and our last MC totally minimized that issue. All I want out of MC is to be able to communicate with him, to some small degree. I can communicate, he can't or won't. He does admit that is true.

What worries me is that he wants to see the therapist first alone, I'm sure to try to triangulate. I'm just so tired of all his machinations.

CB, do you think that if you compromise enough it will make your marriage better?

Do you think that two people should reciprocally compromise for each other- that if one does that it will result in the other one making compromises too?

Is what you want from your H - to see him compromise for you?

No, I long ago accepted the fact that compromise is never going to be reciprocal in this marriage. I don't feel that gives me the right to act as he does though, and never compromise. In an odd sense, I think it means I compromise more, because he can't or won't. I need to work on that.

I think in a healthy marriage there is negotiation, or compromise, there is good will, and there is mutual respect. I think due to his BPD/NPD or whatever his issue is, he lacks the general ability to display these normal relational behaviors, and he certainly lacks the motivation to change.

I never go into a compromise thinking "oh, next time maybe he'll compromise for me". I just write it off, and try to have the best attitude I can. If I can't compromise with a good attitude, I try not to compromise, because it just leads to resentment. That's why I am still so hurt over the decision I was force to make about my 17 year old son. It was presented as a "the marriage or him" type thing.

Heck, if I even point out some nice things I've done, BPDh explodes. Just the other day, I pointed out to him that I invited his son to dinner(trying to remind him of my effort and kindness). He exploded, and told me he can invite his own son to dinner(I actually just suggested it to BPDh, and he was the one who called and invited his son), and in fact he doesn't "need my permission", and I don't even need to be there.  

See what I am dealing with? I've never seen skewed thinking like this. I was pointing out to him that I was trying to be kind, and maintain the one decent relationship we have with one of his four kids, his son, and he explodes. He will often totally twist kind things I do or say, and I'm no longer shocked at being blindsided this way.

I can't crawl in his head, and make him see my good intentions, or make him stop turning good into evil in his head. I can only walk away, and let him think what he's going to think.

I view everything I do in this marriage as MY choice now. If I compromise, if I stand my ground, it's my choice. He can make ultimatums, throw a fit, threaten, but ultimately, the choice is mine. At some point, I may have to leave, but I am committed to the marriage, for now. I'm committed to working on me, and not letting emotionally unhealthy, controlling people ruin my day... .or life.

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