BPDFamily.com

Previous threads (background):

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286047.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286550.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286838.0

So, I talked to my ex last night. All in all it was a good conversation: four hours, good connecting, I was definitely cool and supportive and validating and made her laugh. We *will* have more contact soon, probably after her Christmas travel plans (three days in Vegas). We didn't talk a whole lot about our relationship, but she said that she wanted to talk more about that next time we talk.

What we did talk A LOT about (besides the normal catching-up chit chat small talk that we always do) was her ex-husband. A LOT. She cried and told me that she's been doing a lot of work in therapy about her relationship with him (they have a daughter, so they're still close). A little background on them: she left him about five years ago, when their daughter was 2, but they've remained best friends / enmeshed codependent exes, and she's getting tired of basically people-pleasing and being his constant go-to for support and affection and connection. I've met him, he's a pretty good guy (and definitely a good dad), but kind of a grown-up teenager. Anyway, he was a MAJOR obstacle in our relationship. Due to the long distance and their shared custody, my ex and I being able to freely be together in a way that would work for me to move there was, at best, complicated by him. He wanted to know me and be buddy-buddy with me before I could be a part of HER life, because of their daughter. The problem was: when I would visit, there was nothing we wanted LESS than to be hanging out with her fu**ing ex-husband! So I didn't get to know him, and she didn't want to rock the boat with him, so we never achieved liftoff on having the relationship that we wanted. Very controlling, right? So my ex is doing work in therapy to try to get free of those expectations, but still be able to have a relationship with him. (She describes him as a brother - "It's exactly like family", so this isn't a matter of them secretly still wanting to be together. Not AT ALL.)

So, she talked a lot about that, and cried, and got emotional about it. Honestly she's a mess about it - about learning to ignore his nitpicky comments about her life, about being assertive with him, about letting go of seeking his approval, about detaching. So these are good things! But they're also hard things for me to be hearing about and being supportive about, because this guy basically prevented her and I from getting to any kind of conventional place in our relationship. She has acknowledged that.

So, I wound up playing therapist, and that resulted in us not talking about OUR relationship very much - which was one of my goals for the conversation, so good! I'm proud of myself for being VERY calm and supportive and wise and grounded and validating and matter-of-fact. The little bit we did talk about our relationship was mostly vague. She said that things between us are "still confusing", and that she's still here, and that we'll talk more about it later, once things settle down. She asked if I felt like she was "using" me, and I said that I didn't, and that I wanted to be supportive of her, but that yeah, things are still weird between us and I want to get that sorted out eventually.

Long story sort: I left the conversation feeling like we connected, and like she was vulnerable, and I let her talk a lot and get some things out. It was a far cry from "I think we should say goodbye soon", at the very least. But I feel no less in limbo with her, I didn't feel much in the way of romantic vibes... .it honestly felt like talking to an adult child who can't handle her emotions or empathize very much with the position that she's left me in. I feel resentful to a degree that things with her ex are STILL keeping us from connecting about OUR relationship. So I don't know. I'm going to wait a day or two and drop her a text to thank her for being vulnerable and talking to me about things in her life, and reiterate that I'd like to talk soon after Christmas.

So I guess that basically I'm trying to get a grip on the dual potential realities here: the wishful-thinking one where I'm supporting her in getting to a place where we could maybe be together again (which does, at times, feel like the "friendzone", a term/construct that I honestly despise), and the reality where she's using our intimacy level as an excuse to dump a bunch of her problems on me with only slight reciprocity or consideration for the fact that we have some issues of our own to deal with!

Umm... .it sounds like you've been placed in the "Rescuer" role in the drama triangle, with ex-husband as the "Persecutor."

Rescuer is a sweet spot. You feel needed. It doesn't last, though.

Yeah, maybe. I *am* starting to feel somewhat taken advantage of. I texted her just now and basically got the brush-off. "I know we need to have a real talk, it's just a weird time." So, more waiting. Fun. My favorite.

Ugh, I hate this. Talking to her always makes me spiral out about what it all means, when what it probably really means is that she's going to hold me at arms-length for the foreseeable future (no matter how many "right" moves I make), until I can't stand it anymore. I haven't even *seen* her in almost ten months!

Sounds like this approach is working... .she started to let her guard down.


Patience.

Fours hours is a long call. I'd let it sit for a while and see what she does. Don't over-pursue. It doesn't work with where she is right now.  Write that on a side of a barn somewhere.  

You think the length of the call is significant? She did say that she didn't expect the call to go like that: she wanted to talk about TV shows and life and laugh and so on, but she wound up dumping a bunch of things out that she had been stressing about. And then today she was pretty ... .mixed? Dismissive? It felt like "yeah yeah, we'll talk about us later, leave me alone again." Like this isn't even remotely a priority for her, when it certainly is for me! /rant 

I mean, this is a woman who will force space between us for 3-4 weeks at a time and then spend three hours talking to me about her ex-husband problems... .sheesh.

MB, it probably isn't as much about whether you are a priority, as her inability to process or deal with this right now. My rule of thumb with my pwBPD is that it takes him twice as long as I imagine it could in my wildest dreams, to process anything emotionally heavy or complicated. Many, many days longer than I can identify with. There are many similar accounts on this board.

Something is broken in the relationship, bob. This is, of course, not normal. Now that you have made it past the doomsday call, and you have backed it off are giving her space, it might be worth trying to put your hand on it.

What do you think is bothering her?

I understand this, to a certain extent, but it's been TEN MONTHS. Granted, we've been through a few "phases" post-breakup. A no contact phase, a pretty fraught re-connecting/identifying-the-problems phase where I was pushing pretty hard for reconciliation and she gave a lot of mixed signals, a "let's be friends" phase, and now this new low-contact/monthly-contact phase where things are still confusing, and I'm still getting strong signals in both directions ("just give up on me!", "don't give up on me!" - all while ultimately, temporarily? pushing me away).


In terms of ... .?

I mean, she was pretty clear that she wasn't sure why our talk went the way it did, and that she had agreed/wanted to just have a nice catching-up talk where we'd laugh and get to enjoy each other for a few hours on the phone. She just had feelings up about her ex-husband that were present and distracting and she knows that I'm a good person to go to for support. Whether that's taking advantage of me or not is not really the issue here - if we were having a normal, well-defined, healthy relationship then OF COURSE I'd be happy to support her in whatever. It's just the one-sided nature of it right now that is kind of a problem, and the limbo we're in.

Yes, I think that being patient and supportive of her is helping, but I'm still being pushed away, which I don't like. I don't want to be a pest, but I do want to move things forward and get out of the darkness with her. It sounds like I'm going to have an opportunity to do some relationship processing with her later this month, I've been casually texting her a little bit again about light topics (though I'm going to step back on that for a minute), and I'm not sure where to go next. I feel like I could definitely get angry and direct and give ultimatums and cut through the B.S., but I don't think that's even close to my best move. I'd rather be patient and loving and actually see some progress from her about our relationship, as opposed to this "too much too soon, gotta go!" stuff I've been getting.

She thinks that she's the problem (and she is), so how do I deal with that?

Or maybe I'm completely nuts and she isn't giving mixed signals at all, and she selfishly just wants me to be her friend now because I'm really really good at it because I still love/want her.

Or maybe it doesn't have to be complicated. Maybe we don't have to over-analyze it to the point we're trying to mold the other person to be the person we know/want/hope they can be.

Maybe it's just face value stuff.

She called you because you're supportive. That's OK.

Ex-husband stuff is messy especially when there is a kid involved. There becomes a tug-of-war of time and values and lots of other stuff. I've been there and done that. I exhausted myself actually and pushed it to the point of breaking.

It's also her battle and demons to deal with.  

My husband has a sort of enmeshed, unhealthy relationship with his ex-wife (who is the BPD soul in my life). I can not change that. He seems to have found his place in it. So all my boundaries are about me. "I won't play therapist" is a good one. :) (Except you have to express it kinder, "Hey, I'm proud of you for working on your stuff with your ex. Let's talk about something else for a bit if that's OK?"



She doesn't need you to figure out what she's doing right and wrong with her ex. She needs to figure that stuff out. It's also not all that abnormal to lack boundaries in divorce. I did. My husband did. My exH did. You learn and get better about it over time. It does not happen over night.

All the things that she is doing is really good (working on her stuff). Expectations can be overwhelming when you're working on your stuff. Un-achievable expectations can be downright exhausting and defeating.

Being in a relationship (of any kind) is often about acceptance of the other person exactly as they are. Not some trumped up version of who you know the person can be (or who you want the other person to be). My marriage counselor said most relationships fail due to "unmet" expectations.

She expects what from you?

You expect what from her?

Is it feasible or reasonable?  

I know, and I told her that very very clearly. You know: "It's really really great to see you making progress with him, and progress in yourself, and I know that it's really hard and I'm SO proud of you." I was BEYOND supportive, and I gave her very good advice and counsel and I wasn't pushy about "us" stuff. I put it aside because she needed me to. As I said upthread (or maybe in my other thread?), he was a major obstacle to us taking our relationship to the next level. And she was very unwilling to do her part in changing that dynamic with him while we were together, so I am thrilled that she's doing it now, even if it's not necessarily so that she can have a better/advancing relationship with me.

HOWEVER, she's asking a lot and giving very little - and, sure, to some extent that's par for the course when someone is making major changes in their life - but I need at least a little more than this. I need at least some assurance! That's not a lot to ask for. If she would just say "hey, things are a little crazy in my life right now, and I have some messes to get past, but I want to have the best relationship with you right now that I can have, and I want to have an even better one with you some day, and I think we should see each other in a casual way until we're in a position to get more serious about this, because you make my life better and I love you, etc." that would be INCREDIBLE.


Those are very good questions with very unclear answers, because I hear everything under the sun from her in terms of expectations. If I cancel out all of the opposing messages: she expects me to have no expectations of her, and to be chill about this, and to be available if/when she wants me. What I expect from her is to be doing some work to get clear with me about her intentions for this relationship and how to get there, to not hold me at arm's length if that's not where she actually wants me (and to not jerk me back and forth between distance and intimacy), and to do her work to become stable and available and safe in her life while still maintaining her relationship with me. I think that those things ARE feasible and reasonable.

The fact of the matter is: we have NEVER had a serious talk after the breakup about what a reconciliation could/would look like. She has kept that off the table and danced around the issue for ten months. I can't tell anymore if that is about "not now" or "not ever", and while I vacillate about what to believe in that respect, I don't think I'm crazy for believing her to be on the fence about it.

Oh, and also: she didn't just call me up because she needed support. We had this talk scheduled a month ahead of time. I sat and waited and left her alone and bit my nails and read articles/forum posts and got advice and stopped pushing and set my intentions on having a fun, light-hearted talk with her. We wound up talking for four hours and at least half of that was emotional support about her ex-husband. And I'm her ex! Giving her support about her other ex! When our relationship is in a confusing, push/pull crisis!

I once read somewhere that two people in a happy and healthy relationship are independently happy (with themselves). They enrich the other person's life once they come on scene --- and life becomes more abundant of joy and happiness and you have a partner with a lower level of dependency (which is good).

It really sounds like that is what your ex is doing, trying to find the independent happiness.

Are you trying to do the same?

Are you waiting for her? Are you dating other people? Do you want to date other people?

Actions always speak volumes in these situations. She's expressing to you what it is that she needs and what she's willing to give here. Which sounds like it's bread crumbs at this point.

That's OK. It is what it is. I've done (trauma) therapy myself and it caused an insurmountable amount of issues in my marriage (at first). It was a two year long process (that was complicated by the death of my father) that landed my husband in an extra-marital affair. (I'm not so naïve to not know that my neglectful ways didn't push him away) I also could not promise a happy ending to anything at the time, because I was immersed in a bunch of drudged up crap. I was operating at a pretty low level at that point to give anyone anything. The only way I know how to describe it is that you're literally treading water to not drown.  

It's why they tell addicts not to get in relationships for the first year of recovery. Or newly divorced couples. Or a recent widow.

They're just not always emotionally available to be able to give a whole lot.

Maybe that's just where she's at?

Are your expectations reasonable? For this particular person?

Meaning that your expectations are reasonable (to be assured) but maybe not of her?

Maybe her plate is only as full as she's able to have it. Maybe supporting her in this friendly nature without a whole lot of expectations could help her feel more comfortable? Maybe space would help her not only be independent, but realize what it is that she wants (if that's you)?

So the question becomes what is enough for you?

What is not enough?  

For Board participants reference:

Now that you have stabilized things a bit and are laying low, its probably a good time to take this apart and examine the pieces. You may need to retool how you are looking at this.

A couple of things stand out from your first post, above.  Fourteen fast and passionate months, nine months of physical and emotional unavailability, her ex-husband is currently a focal point of her ongoing therapy, and you are proportionately holding the relationship together.

What is going on regarding the ex-husband?  How close did your relationship follow on the heals of her divorce?  What separated them?

I do think she is trying to do that, and I think she realizes that one of the big problems in our relationship was her wanting me to MAKE her happy, and MAKE it work. FOR her, not WITH her. Like I've said, I'm cool with that, and I encourage that, and that's a necessary step for her, absolutely.

I am casually dating, yes. I've basically gone back to what I was doing before I met her, but with the added difficulty of "I know which girl I want, I just can't have her right now, or maybe not ever." Which is okay, but not ideal. As far as I can tell she isn't dating anyone. I think she might have had a short-term rebound relationship (not 100% sure), but I'm fairly confident that she isn't dating anyone right now.


Well, here's the thing with the (probably fairly valid) "she just doesn't have it in her right now" argument: I have some pretty clear evidence that she DOES have it in her, just not for me. Me specifically. She has been perfectly capable of planning vacations and camping trips (she's going to Las Vegas with her ex-husband and daughter for Christmas), going out drinking with her friends, going to work and feeling bored and like she wants to take on more professional responsibility at her job, spending time with family, doing her book club, etc. etc. Those are all good things, and things that I want her to have for herself, but when I toss out that I'd like to come visit her some time and see how it feels to relate to each other in person it's "oh my goodness, I just don't have the time or energy or effort to expend on this or that or the other thing, I'm SO busy, and things are weird and hard in my life, oh my god stop pressuring me... ." I get that things are more complicated with me than they are with her friends or her job or whatever, but what would ME coming to HER for A DAY really set her back? And it's not even "I don't want to see you, I can't even think about seeing you again", it's "we'll do that some day, this is just right now." It wouldn't even have to be a "date", and I've told her that. I would absolutely travel the 300 miles to have coffee and go to a movie and talk with her for a bit and have a hug and a cry or whatever winds up happening.


What's happening right now is not enough. I'm not sure what would be enough. I think "enough" right now could be as simple as "let's hang out some weekend, I'll make time for that", or actually showing me some of this love that she claims to have for me. I don't need a commitment of undying committed love from her right now, I need to see her expending some effort to keep me around. Maybe I need to back away big time for her to make that move, but I just don't know.

Okay, good questions!

Here's the interesting part of the story that I guess I left out: they've been separated for five years, but are only NOW actually signing divorce papers (literally just started the process a month ago, but there were some paperwork hitches and it's dragged out a bit). She *really* wanted to know how I felt about that after she told me. I was really pretty chill about her still being technically married, because she assured me that they were, for all intents and purposes, divorced. And they are; there's no romantic vibe there, just a weird codependent friendship/family vibe (they started dating when she was 19, he's a few years older, and she's 34 now, so that's not super unusual to see after such a long time). I figured that as things got more serious between her and I, and as we got closer to me moving there, that she would take the initiative to work things out with him. She didn't.

She was unhappy in the marriage for various reasons, tried to work it out (counseling, moving out of their city to the suburbs, job changes, life changes), nothing worked, she cheated (keeps that secret to this day), moved out, started a relationship with the guy she cheated with, that didn't work out for pretty valid reasons (he was a financial drain and irresponsible), she dated around, stuck with one guy for around a year maybe until THAT didn't work out (he was a real weirdo apparently, but she liked his friends), then she dated some more and met me. She says that she knows that if it wasn't for their daughter she and her ex-husband wouldn't be friends, and that she's been scared to rock the boat with him until just recently (when it's gotten too painful NOT to) because she was nervous about a custody battle (although even I know he wouldn't do that). He's fairly abrasive, but a very committed dad (I've worked with kids in the past and met some terrible dads - he is not one of them), he's "always right", not very sensitive to HER sensitivity, and he is oddly okay with being single. I sort of can't blame him - he's got his daughter, he runs a business, his ex-wife is essentially one of his best friends and bends over backwards to make their relationship pass for functional, he has tons of friends, plays in a band in his spare time, etc.

When we wrote grief letters/love letters to each other a few months ago a lot of mine focused on her being unavailable because of her ex-husband, and pointing out the blatant and obvious dysfunction in their relationship. She wanted ME to reach out to HIM, because that was their arrangement. And she didn't want to facilitate that, which is bizarre. I made the metaphor: "Say I wanted you to meet my parents and have a relationship with them and get along with them and know them and that that was important to me ... .that's totally reasonable! But if I said that and then said 'Here's their phone numbers, and they're on Facebook, how about you go and make that happen?', that would be insane!" That's pretty much exactly what she expected me to do with her ex-husband. She did once try to arrange for us to all have dinner and a talk together, but he backed out at the last minute, and she called me up crying and told me about it, and I was reassuring, and nothing came of it. Any time I spent with him was pretty incidental - at her birthday two summers ago, getting a ride to or from somewhere when it was mutually convenient, that sort of thing.

She says that she's doing therapy work about him: about not being care-taking of him, about being less triggered and defensive about his little comments about her life, and about taking proactive steps to start distancing herself from him into a more independent place where she can make decisions for herself (OR with him) that she doesn't internalize as being reliant on his approval.

In a way I feel like she's taken my critique to heart, and that's good. I really could give her time and space to go through that process, if it felt like that was getting US somewhere. And besides, you DO NOT HAVE TO DITCH YOUR RELATIONSHIPS TO DO YOUR THERAPY WORK. I can't emphasize my belief in that enough.

Also: any suggestions as to how to do that?

That's a hugely significant back story. *)  Hopefully others will join in this conversation.

It goes without saying that any women who is going through a divorce and with custody at stake, there is going to be high levels of stress. pwBPD traits tend not to do well in stressful situations.  With a "high school sweetheart" for a husband, they are as close to being blood relatives as one can be - they grew up together.

There is also the consideration that you were the extramarital partner and, if you read about this, these relationships are often supplemental. A comparison is often made to a three-legged stool, with the affair partner supply the third leg not provided for by the husband.  Once the husband is out, the need for a romantic partner can change.

And this is a long distance relationship, which also tend to be partial in character - neither of you have to deal with each other on a day to day basis - they time together is more like vacation time or honeymoon time.  People who get into LDR often do so because they do not need or want or do well with a full-time partner (even subconsciously).

When someone is dismantling one relationship, it is often hard to thing in terms of assembling another one at the same time.

This is a lot of stuff to work through bob. I only share it to paint the larger landscape so you can start sorting through all of this.

She could be consumed beyond has capacity... .your demands, right now, could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I don't know her, obviously, but does any of this sound right to you?

I'm sorry, Bob. When I look at this story, I don't see the seeds for a future relationship. I see a relationship that ended, and a man who is clinging to any hope that it might start up again. She may be giving some mixed signals with language, but her actions are completely unambiguous. She's not willing to take any physical step (or let you take one) that would put you two back together in any way.

Yes, I think that some of that sounds right to me. I don't know about the third-wheel thing, though. That didn't feel like the dynamic to me. She was as frustrated as I was with having to negotiate our relationship involving him, she just didn't do anything about it. She wanted the whole shebang with me, I know that for sure - desperately, at times. But she was scared of the changes it would have meant. And sure, she may be better off getting through that transition before she adds someone else to the mix, I can see that. Unfortunately I'm here now.  

She has told me a few times that she thinks that, after leaving her ex-husband, she has subconsciously chosen serious romantic partners who all come with some kind of "romantic obstacle" that they have to overcome to be with her. Mine was being fairly far away, in another country. ":)o you love me enough to make this work? Please love me enough to make this work!" was absolutely the test that I was up against. So yes, that allows her to not rock the boat and not fully commit and let's her maintain certain exits. I think that the bulk of that probably has to do with her BPD traits, but at least some of it probably has to do with avoiding having to actively change the dynamic with her ex-husband. I think she's broken denial about what a messed-up situation she has on her hands, and I empathize. That's hard stuff, and I've been through it too. Again, unfortunately: I'm here now.

I don't know what her capacity is, but it's pretty low. I just want to make it easier on both of us, and figure out how to balance this imbalance without us losing each other.

Oh, and I don't think that custody is really at stake. They both love the custody arrangement that they currently have, and he just wouldn't do that. She knows that, deep down. But sure, that fear comes up for her, and it's real, even if it is irrational.

That might be very true, and I certainly think about that a lot. She somehow always stops me from walking away, and I stop her from walking away. I don't know what we're doing anymore; it's very confusing for both of us. The reality check is very welcome, though. I need to hear that stuff too.

Anybody else agree with flourdust?

I can hear that. Someone on the outside of my relationship would tell me to just pull the plug and get divorced now, stat, immediately. I can't logically tell them they'd be wrong.

There's an unattributed quote that I remind myself of often: "People don't fear change. They fear loss."

Even when we stand to gain more than we lose ... .we are still going to have to lose first.

What stands out to me:


If a persons words and behaviors are not in sync... .

Listen to what the behavior is telling you.

Don't minimize it.

Believe it.

I may have an issue of my own here as well. My breakup with my first serious girlfriend (*my* high school sweetheart, who I was with for 8-ish years) was very similar to this. Drawn out, limbo, rollercoaster-y, confusing ... .and when I finally let her go, she came back a year later and tried to reconcile, after doing a bunch of therapy work! I turned her down, when only a year before I would have *killed* to have her back. So I've been through this before.

"I'm not willing to make this work, can you? Because I really want you to, and then it'll be your fault instead of mine if you can't, and I won't have to change anything either way." ?

That sounds to me like childish, disordered behavior, not necessarily a contradiction in logic. And that is what SHE has taken to heart - that that way doesn't work. So she's fixing it for herself, and that's great.

Why don't you, by the way? If you don't mind me asking... .

I promised myself to wait until after the holidays before making any decisions. I'm getting more comfortable with the decision in my head, but I'm going to keep to my timetable rather than act impulsively. I might be fooling myself by stalling to avoid the unpleasantness. I guess we'll see.

What ACTIONS is she taking towards having a relationship with you?  Not talk, not words or sentiment... .but what behaviors has she DONE... ._{not said}... .that draw the two of you into a closer relationship?  _{Not draw you into her drama}... .but real things you value having in a relationship?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm not implying anything.  I legitimately do not understand what she has done towards making a relationship with you.

What is she fixing?

Bob, did you ever take something apart that has a lot of parts and started to get lost? The proverbial "Can't see the forest for the trees"? We are over "BPDing" the dilemma.

If you analyze this without "BPD" is a over complicated situation with a lot of forks in the road for her. This part has nothing to do with mental illness - anyone in her shoes would be flooded and not highly predictable as to where they will be in a year.  Your discounting this. It will not serve you well to do so.

Layer BPD traits on that, and you get fantasy and over/under reactions, and stress intolerance layer on top.

There are a lot of unknowns rand risks here. You really have little chance of successfully navigating this unless you grasp all in a way that sets a stage that she can favorably step on in her own time and way  - and do so without having her lose respect for you or you going crazy in the process.

For example - the standard advice for someone dating a person getting a divorce is to give them a year or so of all the space they need and do not make demands on them.  Why?  They can easily overload and just start eliminating things to keep their sanity.

Your nine months into this - there might be 6 -12 months more.  Can you live or work with uncertainty for that long?

I didn't think you were being sarcastic, sorry about that. We're cool, Sunflower!

Good question. Not much. And less as time has gone on and she's pushed away more, but she's been working on other aspects of her life. After a relatively calm, intimate period between us last summer where we were texting goodnight every day and talking pretty often, she took a trip to a place that we had gone when we were together and had a lot of feelings about me there, and cried on the train home, and then got very dramatic with me about it. I made a big move to leave because it felt like that stalled things out, and that underlying issues weren't being dealt with that were affecting the relationship progression. She sent me flowers, and begged me not to give up on this. She's sent me cards, she's reached out to me, we've written letters ... .and she has talked about a vague future where we are involved in each other's lives in some as-yet-undetermined way (yes, I know, talked about). She knows she wants to at least be family/friends, but we are way more intense than friends on both sides, and I think that she could be too scared to admit that she wants more than that, but can't see the way to get there, especially with everything that is going on for her, and the obstacles that remain.

I acknowledge that that could very well be at least 90% wishful thinking on my part. That would be understandable.

So sorry... . I know you say all is cool... .but this sounds harsh and I don't know how else to say it... .

WHAT are you trying to "save?"

What IS the relationship?

_{Her behavior communicates that she is not available... .and not emotionally ready to be available.  What I hear in her behavior is that she is in a 'working' relationship with her ex and you are serving to help a function in their relationship 'work.'  I believe this is exactly the position I was in with my ex... .he was too entangled with her... .stated he wanted to be free of her... .but he was drawn to her like a zombie... .mindlessly... .nonsensical.  However, that may not be allowed to be stated in this board?}

You're right, Skip. I probably am still being discounting. I'm getting worked up and frustrated. I don't know how much longer is worth it to hang in there. I don't know if I can be just her friend either, honestly, or if she can be mine. I don't know how much hope to have, or how little. It's all unknowns and contradictions right now. Neither of us are entirely willing/able to let go of each other yet, so I have to learn to work with this. I need to do what I can to settle this down, at least. Maybe that means walking away for a while, or more fully detaching. It sucks, because I'm ready to make the moves and do the work, but she's not. Not to the extent that I am. Timing. So key.

We're entangled and we don't know how to be together OR be friends OR let each other go. So we're struggling to define the relationship and its boundaries and its function. That's the best way I can put it. We were together, now we're not, but we're super intense as friends, and it feels stuck *in between*. I'm inclined to give a romantic another shot, and she favors being friends and taking space to do some work (at least "for now". It's tough.

Believe me, she wants to be free of him. She wants him in a brother role for her, and still a dad role for their daughter. That relationship has major work to be done on it before she can reach her goals, though, that's true. It's a priority because she is FIERCE about her daughter.

This is the"Saving Board" (not undecided) so please don't take anything I say as discouragement.  What I am trying to help you visualize is what it is going to take and the level of uncertainly you face in investing yourself in the relationship. I encourage to immerse yourself in that, think it through, conceptualize how it will evolve, get it all i under your belt. 

Then decide.

Right now you are vacillating between fantasy (this will fix in the next two weeks) and defeat and trying to choose between.  Get into the "nuts and bolts" reality here. It will take you a long way toward reaching her, finding inner peace, and knowing when your on a track and when you have hit a wall.

This IS the "Saving Board", and I want to salvage this relationship. I'm having a hard time picturing the middle ground in this relationship, so I think that's why I'm vacillating between "oh my god, fix it now, it hurts and it's confusing!" and "I gotta get out of this now, it hurts and it's confusing!" I'm trying to turn maybe a lost cause into a hopeful situation, and maybe that's not within my power. But I'm trying.

And really, truly, and sincerely: thank all of you for your continued input and advice, it's really helping me. Even the hard, challenging stuff.

Bob,

I don't know if you're ex has BPD but one common trait for a pwBPD is that their focus in a relationship is 100% on meeting their needs.  Her talking on the phone for hours with you to discuss her issues and then you getting the brush off later when you wanted needs of yours discussed is a classic example of this.  Yes it can be very frustrating on you when you have many unresolved issues and want to at least know the direction your relationship is going but you can't even start a discussion about it.  Right now it looks like she is overwhelmed dealing with her other issues right now and if you push her to deal with your relationship issues, you will be ignored and the more you push you will most likely get pushback from her even up to the point of her telling you she's done with you just as her way to avoid dealing with it.

So if you want to be in a relationship with her I recommend patience and understand and accept your relationship is not going to be a focus with her right now and find encouragement in that she was willing to use you as her sounding board in dealing with her issues.  Her being in therapy is also encouraging.  Though it may seem very unfair, you will get a better responses from her if you make yourself available to be there to meet whatever her needs are right now.  By telling her you were happy she opened up to you during your long phone call and that you are there for her if she ever wants to talk about her issues you may find her much more receptive in additional phone calls with you.  Just lower your expectations that she will be ready anytime soon to discuss your relationship.  

Thanks, steve. That's very sound advice. It IS tough to be the one waiting. I feel like it's unimportant to her, though. That's really hard to stare down and be okay with. I can get into the supportive zone really easily and really well with her, and that's definitely something that she adores about me. I don't know if that's NOT just being blatantly codependent, though. I guess that's something I need to settle in my own head.

You or her?

If you're trying to make sense of this, I'd open a thread an talk through some of the things that have been identified and overriding factors... .being a third party to a primary relationship, long distance relationships, divorce impact of relationship, etc.

Looking at the dynamics of each of these will give you a much more accurate picture of who and where she is and it will greatly help you relate to her.

I don't think she see things the way you think she sees them. You're evaluating it all with you and your relationship with her at the epicenter. These are not the epicenter right now and until you understand and embrace what it is an what it is all about, the two of you will be fencing.

What Skip said about facing "what it is going to take and the levels of uncertainty you will be dealing with" reflects my experience so I can speak to that.   The practical reality is my partner has two serious mental illnesses.    They are controlled right now but I can not expect they will always be.  My partner also suffers from bipolar and when the mania gets out of control she can become psychotic.    We have planned for what happens when or if a psychotic break happens.  I have plans in place that I have not shared with her to protect both of us in case of a medication failure.  That is the nuts and bolts stuff that Skip was talking about as it applies to my situation.

For me,  I had to grieve the relationship I had hoped to have and face the the one I could have.

There are no quick fixes.      Being in a relationship with a person with a mental health issue is a daily commitment to playing the cards you are dealt.   Living in the now, accepting the now, both the good and bad is an important skill to cultivate.   What if's are not your friends.

It takes a great deal of time to create something of substance.   With or without BPD.    Regardless of what happens tomorrow in my relationship I have the sense that I will be allright.   I can accept the risks and the rewards that tomorrow might bring.  It's taken me a long time to get to that point.  I think I got there by doing what Skip suggested.  

I was referring to me, that I'm displaying codependent behavior by settling for a friendship when what I really want is for her to re-engage romantically. And I'm probably trying to remain a viable candidate for future partnership while she works through getting clear of her ex-husband by being the guy who supports her and is there for her, only to have that result in me being used and discarded when I'm no longer valuable to her.

I know that I'm not at the epicenter anymore, and that hurts. I could do my own thing and hope that she comes around eventually once the life drama passes, but I have no reason to believe that is what's going to happen. It sounds like she and I will have a talk about "us" in a couple weeks. I just need to decide how to proceed with that right now.

I'd gladly put in the time and effort with her to figure out the nuts and bolts, and I'd go through the trial and error of finding the process that works for her. But she isn't giving me that opportunity. She's running and pushing away and (as said up thread) *doing* very little to keep me here.

And I'm still haunted by the "part of me wants to be allowed to love you", but "getting over being angry/sad is slowwwwww" and the other mixed messages I get. I know that when I press forward on that she runs and starts saying "I think we should just say goodbye", but ughhhhhh. I feel completely foolish for not just saying "cool then, see ya when I see ya," and sticking to it. 

 
This is really what I think is hindering you in this.

I mean what are her priorities?

What are yours?

From where I'm standing and if I put myself in her shoes (empathetically as a woman whose been divorced, rebounded, and dealt with unresolved issues in a past relationship) I see it a certain way where priorities are more about her. Not so much a relationship. With anybody. She's also in the famous mid 30's not-really-mid-life-crisis that a lot of women face. The "I'm getting older and not having babies anymore and I feel 25 but I'm not 25... .and what am I doing with my life?" I went through it and have lots of girlfriends who find themselves here. It's kind of a selfish and weird place to be.

You are welcome in her life as long as your demands are low and you are not a stressor.

So... .you can continue to be that and be in her life. Once a month. In a phone call with limits.

Or you can tell her that you want more and expect more.

And she'll decide that... .

Her priorities right now are her own mental health, and getting to a better place in her relationship with her ex-husband where she feels free to make those "what am I doing with my life?" decisions. That's pretty clear. She's definitely assessing her life, and I've heard lots about it. She literally had an Instagram post not too long ago with a joke about Spotify suggesting "here's the soundtrack to your mid-life crisis"! But she's assessing it without me in the picture. I'm starting to wonder if I was her last-ditch-effort "maybe somebody else can make this work for me" guy, and that me sticking around to hold her accountable and try to help clean up the mess and fix things solidified her decision to go it alone for a while. I think she looks at me being willing and able and helpful and compares it to herself and probably feels like garbage about her inability to reciprocate.

And you're right, it's "don't cause me any trouble and I'll deign to connect with you on my own terms." Even when I'm fun and casual and non-pressuring and validating and supportive and freaking awesome to her, it doesn't move things forward. I do want more, I do expect more. And I also don't want to lose her. She might come around once this work is done, but that's out of my control. I'm thinking real hard today about hurrying up this next talk with her and giving some ultimatums, but that sucks too! There are no good options here, except to settle. And settle hard. And "find hope in a hopeless place", as that dumb song says.

I don't feel encouraged to stay by her, I feel encouraged to leave.

Maybe it doesn't need to be black and white, "Should I stay or should I go?" (You have your song references, and I have The Clash song references  :) )

A lot of times it's accepting things as they are right now. Six months from now things could be different. Or the same.

Accept that what she's willing to give you right now is what it is. (Your ultimatums probably won't change that.)  

Accept that it's not enough for you. (Will her ultimatum of you accepting what she's willing to give change that for you?)

The thing is... .

It doesn't mean you jump off the bridge. It just means that she's willing to call you once a month.

And you decide where you go from here. What you do in the meantime is up to you. Do you hang on for dear life? Do you let the chips fall where they may? Allow space for her and you? Expect the worst, hope for the best? Grieve the relationship (if it fails) without cutting it off at the knees?

Or... .?

I hear you about having patience and taking the middle road, but it's getting to the point where talking once a month is too often to let go, and not often enough to hold on without ANY encouragement from her to do so. How I went from being hopelessly embarrassingly clung to to being priority zero I'll probably never understand.

Rejection sucks.

It's fundamentally knowing that "I'm not enough for her" but instead feeling like "I'm not enough."

Dissecting these situations (the way you already are doing that here) is really good for the soul. We get in these relationships for a reason. We put up with things most people don't for a reason.

All I'm saying is I don't think showing your cards at this point will help you win. I also don't think that folding (cutting it off completely) will exactly be helpful either.

It might be a place to usurp what it is that you're willing to be for her too. What are your values/boundaries in this? What are you compromising at this point? i.e. Talking (therapeutically) about her ex would be off-limits for me (and for most people). Not only am I not properly equipped -- I don't want to. Blech. That's what her therapist is for.   

You're completely caught up in the emotions of this all. We're human, it's what we do.

That's the beauty of this forum. We get to be the emotional messes and allow others to step in and help show us the reality. It's why Skip's suggestion of starting a thread about your relationship and how it played out (Long distance/still married/rebounding) is such a good one. It allows us a bird's eye view of what we did and how we got to the place we're in. Dissecting it to better understand all the roles of all the players allows us to move on. Learn from it. So we don't do it again.

With this partner or maybe the next one.

Hope is what you make of it. Maybe the relationship is hopeless. Maybe it's not even about the relationship as much is it really is about you.

Oh I'm certainly learning my lessons! And I won't forget them. The super frustrating part is that I feel like screaming "I get it now! We can make this better! Let's at least try! Meet with me, it's worth it!", but she is NOT there. And, if anything, she's just telling me over and over again to forget about it. And also passively NOT to forget about it.

She is not saying this, bob. She senses that this would be unfair, so she is releasing you.  This is the mixed message you are struggling with. But its not that mixed. It sounds like "Mr. Maple, I still care about you, but I'm at a mixed up place in my life and I am overwhelmed trying to sort out was is and what is not with respect to my existing family, and my own mental health".

You can't change this. Your efforts to do so make the situation worse. This is driving you crazy.  I think we all have been there a one time or another.

If you take all the pressure off and stop over-pursuing it will help. You've backed it off a bit, but I'm sure she is being very careful not to show any green light for fear you will come running over the border and she will have more to deal with. You are going to need to back away further and longer before she feels its safe to give you any positive responses.

The backing away, however, needs to be benign. "Not, I'll wait for you till the end of time" (Meatloaf) or "I'm already gone" (Eagles).  It's a fine line to walk.

Emotions are impulsive. She's impulsive. Things could clear up with hubby, there could be 6 straight days of sunshine, and then her thinking, I haven't heard much from "Maple man" lately, I hope he's not gone... .

  ... .and then the journey of rebuilding starts.

There are downsides, too. She may actually be struggling to lose the hubby. Couples can reconcile in divorce - especially when they see what they are losing.

This is really hard stuff, bob. No one want to feel helpless or having no control. Anyone would be frustrated.

Have you thought about marking this as a uncommitted relationship and exploring more than one option at the same time?

She's not going to reconcile with her husband. That just is NOT going to happen.

Should I give her a "soft" goodbye and then just give her all the space? It seems like that's maybe the right move. "I feel like I'm getting in your way, and that you've been telling me that, and that I haven't been hearing that. I'm hearing it now, so please feel free to be in touch with me if/when you're ready to DO some kind of relationship with me that has room to grow." ?

No. No no no. You need to not make it about you and your desire.

This is what I would say. "Hey, I can tell you've got a lot on your plate now. I'll give you your space. I'm thinking of you and hoping for the best -- good luck with all the difficult stuff going on in your life. Feel free to connect with me some time if you ever want to chat."

The end. Genuine concern for her well-being. No obligation. No expectation. And no manipulation!

I hear you, flourdust, but this statement brings up a vent for me that I need to vent, which I hope you don't take personally, because I value what you're saying here. So, proceed venting mode:

When is it ever going to be able to be about my needs and desires? I have them! They're hard to ignore! Relationships are supposed to meet both people's needs, at least a majority of the time. I don't think it's unhealthy to say that I'm dissatisfied AND that I'm open to hearing from her when she feels like she has an increased capacity to meet my standards for even a friendship. My standards are NOT insane! "Reach out to me when you don't feel obligated to do so, so that I feel like I'm actually important to you. Make time and space and effort to spend time with me occasionally. Invest *something*!"

I've heard in this thread: "Put the disorder aside, what is she doing from the perspective of a *non* to maintain your relationship?" and I say "not a whole lot" - and then I'm hearing "Well, she's disordered and consumed by life stuff, what do you expect? Forget your needs! Validate and meet hers!" It's frustrating! It's one-sided! I don't want relationships like that! I need some give and take! I'm capable of flexibility, I'm capable of giving her time and space, but how much space does she expect to be able to get and still have a relationship with me of any kind? Does she just literally not care about that?

Okay, venting over. Now I can say: You're right, flourdust, I need to be the adult here, and to be the one who has grace under pressure. It's just HARD. And it feels hopeless to expect that my bare-minimum needs will EVER be met by this relationship, no matter what I do.

Don't forget about your needs. The minute this detrimental or isn't working for you, let go and move on. I don't think anyone is suggesting you sacrifice yourself here - I know I made that point a few times. The point is that you can't compel her to make you a priority or to commit to you.

I do, however, get your frustration. I think we all do. There are many love songs written about this.

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