BPDFamily.com

Note: Boy, I think I will make angry a lot of people here by writing this post, but it came to me like an epiphany few hours ago. I also read some BPD forums, where BPD persons write their own experiences. Maybe that messed up my mind.  :)

Ok, the general idea here is that most of the people that are members of this (great) community think that they are the victims of their previous BPD partners. Who wouldn't think of that?

Just read those topics:

- Destroyed relationships after so many sacrifice

- Crazy behavior (drinking, cheating, lying, manipulation)

- Emotional abuse

- Passive aggression

- You name it... .

So you have every right to be called "a victim".

BUT... .



What about them?

Are they also victims of our own behavior? Now you will say to me: "What behavior? I gave every atom of myself in that relationship! And she/he still did all those nasty things"

But, let's face it. We were also emotionally unstable in those relationships. When you read all our topics, you can see that we also didn't love ourselves. We shove codependency issues, NPD elements, savior complex etc.

We also need to understand that we triggered their behavior by our own emotional issues. Not that we are guilty for their behavior!

In short: It takes two to tango... .

So, I believe the best is to separate. Instead of doing this "I am the only victim", we need to work on our issues... .Love our inner self.

I agree it does take two people and that all of us have our own faults but I do also believe that its more one sided with pwBPD.

Some of us at the start of the relationships were healthy non-dependant people and being in a relationship with someone with BPD or NPD and all between it breaks you down over time, changing you for the worst.

So to say it takes two is very true but a lot of the time they make you that second person through the situation rather than just also being in the wrong.

This can be seen clearly by people saying how our exBPD r/s had a similar pattern with their ex's and their future ones after us. As with us, we move on, move forward eventually and you don't see many come back to this forum. We are in a loop like a rollercoaster but it does leave that loop eventually. pwBPD however their cycle hardly ever ends.

I do think all of us here think we could of done things better but I don't think blaming yourself for who they are helps you heal. Yes we can all be better people but not for the r/s that was broken before it began.

I don't know, but I disagree with this. I believe you cannot be emotionally stable person and enter a relationship with BPD person.

Yes and no. While I agree some (but not all) nons were a bit messed up to begin with, in no way does this mean we deserved the verbal, physical, emotional and financial abuse inflicted by these cretins. Nor did we deserve involvement via outside agencies (i.e: police, lawyers), infidelity, social shunning or character assassination. The cruelty was bone chilling, and no one deserves that.

Good point.

www.cbwhit.com/Victim-to-survivor.htm

Sorry, but I didn't said that we deserve this. :)

I agree that both parties have a stake in the blame. I've recently noticed a more senior member here suggest what appears to be that all of it is on the non, which baffles me. Maybe due to having spent too much time here, who knows? Either way, the "two to tango" verdict seems the correct one to me.

Sure, it takes two to tango, but I did everything I could to please that girl, and up until the end I was always trying to keep her positive and fulfilled, even when it became tougher and tougher to juggle my life and hers. Was always positive and encouraging, and there for her when life got rough. In the end her needs won and she left. I believe that with textbook cases the best you could have done was delayed the inevitable, and by that point your ego and self worth would have been whittled down to nothing more than a shell of yourself before meeting them. If they don't recognize their problem and try to treat it your relationship will follow the same predictable trajectory, and in that case I don't think we're to blame.

Completely disagree: the non's behavior is not harmful to the BPD, but the BPDs behavior is harmful to the non. That is what you are forgetting. So the it takes two to tango remark does not apply in a BPD relationship.  And yes we were victims of an abusive traumatic relationship.  The BPDs were not.

You are correct.  But this is the scenario.  You end up with two screwed up individuals because of one mental disorder.  I came here to find the answers to all the questions I have come across for two decades.  I did see my wife as a victim and the only victim but that was a big mistake.  No one is a victim here, but the disorder does cause them to portray themselves as a victim.  It's part of it. 

There is no more gratification as a parent when your kids start to see the disorder itself and the healing process in the non. 

It does take two to tango, but as I was trying to tango with her she was to busy doing the cha-cha!

I agree that these relationships are tough and the black and white thinking is destructive.

I do believe that it takes two to tango and one to stop the conflict. I would argue with my ex wife when she had borderline rages and if we hold the position of persecutor for too long a pwBPD will emotionally collapse. I felt so angry and resentful and it was so much negative energy.

I really don't like conflict but the way that I spoke to her was invalidating and I had to be right all of the time. She taught me how huge validation is, to validate the valid and not the invalid, I may not agree with her perspective but she does have valid things to say. It's not my fault that she's unstable at times or that she's in a dysfunctional coping mode but I could have stepped out of the house instead of engaging her. I now have boundaries on myself that I won't JADE when she is baiting or unstable and validate the valid.

On the topic of victims the thought of being a victim never crossed my mind and I say that because not everyone necessarily thinks or feels the same way. I always thought that I was a survivor and all I wanted to know was what was wrong with my wife and the truth. Someone could call me a victim but it doesn't necessarily mean that opinion defines who I am.

I think that's what blackbirdsong point is that we don't have to cast all of the blame on our partners and separate. When we relate with someone often it becomes a relationship, relationships give us realistic feedback about ourselves with what we put out there.

Well, my opinion is that we need to separate from them. Because it is unhealthy relationship. But, I agree with you (or you with me :D) that we shouldn't blame only them for this unhealthy relationship because we were also emotionally unstable. And probably, by projecting this emotionally unstable behavior, we triggered faster/more/harder their BPD behavior.

Not that we are responsible for their BPD behavior, cheating, lying, manipulations etc! Some of you constantly misquote me about this. Whatever we did, no healthy person won't do that. But we (we "the only victims" + BPDs) represent magical connection that makes hell of our relationships.  

Sorry, but you cannot convince me now that you allowed your BPD partner to do all these things to you for 5,10,15 years and call yourself emotionally stable person. I am just not buying that.

Hell, I were only 3 months in relationship with my exGF, but considering the fact that I thought I loved her, that she loved me,  and the fact how we connected, and how bad I felt to let her go -> I definitely think I have issues that I have to work on.

Apologies if I split from the topic but this reminded me of an interview I saw with Jonathan Davis from Korn. He said that his bodyguard was a healthy person when he started working for him but a few years later he had taken on many of Davis' traits. He had become ill just by being close to Davis for an extended period of time. Davis' words confirm what people say about mental illness being contagious. Sent shivers down my spine.

Again, I believe this guy definitely didn't have solid emotional foundations at the first place. Emotionally healthy person will recognize this behavior, and won't allow that mental disorder influences him. This guy could say: "F*** this, I will fork for minimal wage for someone who is normal and won't hurt me. But I won't allow this to myself."

What about the Non's who walked away from these relationships fairly quickly, after getting a taste of what the reality of the situation was going to be? Not everyone that entered into a relationship with a person suffering from BPD was emotionally challenged and/or had self-esteem/self-worth issues. (I agree that some Non's do have their own issues to address, CoD being fairly common, but not all of the Non's.) What about the people on the Staying Board who clearly know what they're into and understand the challenges, but have chosen to stay? Do they all have emotional/self-esteem issues? If you read on that board, I think you'll find that that's not the case. People of all types enter relationships of many kinds, with many different kinds of people, for many different reasons.

A pwBPD being the victim of their disorder, I couldn't agree more. Afflicted with BPD entails all the pain and punishment of the disorder. In the end, usually, they lose the very people that cared for them the most. That, in itself, is a terrible liability in life, excluding all of the other hardships BPD presents.

I broke up after 3 months. That was fairly quickly, can you agree? But it is not the point how soon you leave but how you leave, in general. I am talking about persons who think that they are in love with BPDs, and that BPDs love them. I am saying that they are not emotionally stable persons. That is my opinion, of course, we can disagree... .

Because of all these things, because it was hard to me to leave, because it is still hard to me, I think I am emotionally unstable person that needs to work on my codependency issues, NPD elements etc.

And probably, by projecting this emotionally unstable behavior, we triggered faster/more/harder their BPD behavior.

I wholly disagree with this. The disorder is the problem, not the Non. There are countless examples of a pwBPD repeating the same behavior(s) over and over again with numerous, different individuals. The Non becomes a trigger because the pwBPD became emotionally attached to/emotionally intimate with them. One hallmark characteristic of the disorder is chaotic interpersonal relationships for the pwBPD, not meeting ppl who cause chaotic interpersonal relationships.

Yes, I agree that BPD is the problem. Completely agree.

But you are referring to the other partners as Nons.

But I think we need new name for some of those partners, we need to divide them in two groups:

a) Nons without issues: Emotionally stable people, who recognize BPD behavior, don't involve too much/deeply in relationship and leave soon without many consequences for their emotional health

b) Nons with issues, people that fall in love with BPDs, adore unhealthy idealization phase of the relationship and feel broken after the relationship ends

In relationship with Nons with issues, BPD is not the only problem, because they also brought issues into the relationship

Blackbirdsone,

The order was not consistent. I got involved with her as a teenager.  It fully manifested into her 30s. If I was thirty and met her yes I would have moved on. That is the issue she is facing.  There are also 200+ manifestations of BPD and there are types.  It's not like you go into it an see the same characteristic right away.  

Sorry but my relationship was not 3 months.  It was a long complex one.

Of course that will make a lot of people on here mad. Many people on here are extremely NPD and totally unaware of it.

Blackbirdsong, Do you consider that your BPD ex is a victim of you?

It is very complex question but I would say NO.

Because now I don't consider myself as a victim, also. It is not like she ambushed me in an ally and raped me. Every second I had a choice to leave, to realize that this is unhealthy for me. But I didn't, because of my issues.  

We need to realize that healthy people are not helpless, they have inner mechanism that helps them to see what is wrong and what is good for them. I didn't have that during my "love phase". Now I am working on this.

We are all victims only how much we let them to hurt us. Yes, she did emotionally abuse me, but why didn't I leave when I realized that. Why didn't I realize that she is abusing me? Even, when I did, why did I tolerate this? Why did I fall in love in this person?

Because of my issues, not because of BPD, ladies and gentlemen (:imagining that I am presenting my final word in front of the jury: :D).

AMEN Apollotech!

Lol. This describes a BPD relationship perfectly. We tangled up to do the Tango. It looked, smelled, acted like a Tango. And it even felt like Tango at first. We stepped on toes a bit and it felt awkward at times but in our minds Tango's aren't perfect and the Tango can be FIXED right? Wrong. Not when one is actually doing the cha-cha

a) Nons without issues: Emotionally stable people, who recognize BPD behavior, don't involve too much/deeply in relationship and leave soon without many consequences for their emotional health

b) Nons with issues, people that fall in love with BPDs, adore unhealthy idealization phase of the relationship and feel broken after the relationship ends

Again, emotionally stable people can get involved with emotionally unstable people, for many different reasons. Some of them choose to stay in unhealthy relationships. Also, I have never heard of/read of an example where the nastiest parts of BPD were in the very beginning of the relationship, devaluation never occurs before idealization. Emotional attachments are formed before devaluation occurs. Idealization only becomes unhealthy when the relationship is not allowed to mature out of it and progress into something much more substantial and deeper. (Idealization does have a courtship biological function in any relationship.) With a pwBPD, engulfment steps in instead, then the wheels fall off. Again, these are all characteristics of the disorder, not the Non, of any flavor.

blackbirdsong, kudos to you for recognizing issues within yourself that need to be addressed. That may be the blessing in disguise from your relationship.

We weren't the "only" ones  though. There were probably many. How do you think you triggered yours blackbirdsong?

I still disagree, can you give me some short example? :)

I agree that stable characters can be attracted by unstable person, but they can't fall in love with this person.


Didn't say that. Idealization always comes before the devaluation part. But what kind of idealization? Read on :)


But the way how we enjoyed this idealization is unhealthy. This is the main issue. They idealized us and we liked that, this ideal image fed something that was missing inside us. We felt great about being something important to someone - to be needed not to be loved.

And this is something that I found unhealthy. Ok, every relationship has idealization part. But in our case it was too extreme from both sides. Extreme = unhealthy


Thank you. I hope it is.

I guess in a twisted way, I am grateful for the abuse. I have learned firsthand what I will not tolerate from anyone. I have learned about boundaries and a pwBPD caught me once as a non-with-issues, shame on her. If I do it again after all I've learned, shame on me.

Since, I found this board, I have not found a person or read a post where the member is portraying themselves as a victim.  What I see are wives, fathers, husbands, mothers who are just trying to make sense of their situation.  And when we find hundreds of people that have lived similarly to us, it provides a sense of healing.  I have four kids with my wife.  I wish I could just walk away cold turkey but because of those four kids, I can't.  No matter what, we will be connected for the rest of our lives.  

And no I'm not NPD or codependent. I did have to go to therapy this time around.  I was just manipulated.  I guess that is where you don' see what we see.  Our partners are not being malicious.  I guess I was built a little more compassionate towards people who might have problems.  

Because I have NPD elements. NPD, in relationship thinks: If I feel bad it must be my fault. This is unhealthy.

BPD thinks: If I feel bad, it must be his/her fault. This is also unhealthy.

And this is endless, unhealthy cycle. Borderline rages, and you are feeding its rage by thinking you can/should fix it.

And by thinking that way, you are feeding their rage. You are triggering even worse reaction. Adding fuel to the fire.

Really? You didn't see anyone claiming that he/she is a victim? Even in this topic we are discussing is someone a victim or not.

I also see this board as a place where we should find healing. I have compassion towards those people, I am also "that person". But that doesn't have to mean that I don't have a right to an opinion. I am also confused and trying to find my healing path.  Currently, my theory makes sense to my feelings and comparing to everything I have read in last period of my life learning about BPD relationships. But, every problem needs to be observed from different perspectives.

Also, my opinion is that kids are not a reason to stay in unhealthy relationship. You can still be their father by not living with your partner.

Yes, it is much harder when you have kids, I admit. The connection always exists, but you can't let this connection with her hurts you.


Ok, I respect that. I don't know you.

But just for your information, your passive agressive response to me:

You don't see what we see

I was built a little more compassionate towards people

is a book example of NPD element :)

BBS,

The idealization itself was not unhealthy. Again, that serves a courtship biological function for attraction---it alters brain chemistry. We are supposed to be attracted during idealization, that's normal. But, we're not designed to "stay" in this state. A BPD relationship, in my opinion and from what I have read, doesn't mature out of this. This is where the addiction lingo comes into play: yes, we were addicted... .to our very own self-produced designer drug, our own brain chemistry. This overstimulation over an abnormally overextended period of time can cause PTSD (Unfortunately, some members here can attest to that. When the push/pull finally arrives, now there is constant overstimulation.) So, idealization is normal to a degree and for a period. We are supposed to be attracted to our partner during that time. This is a natural occurance, regardless of the Non's mental/emotional well-being. We cannot escape our biology.

Yes, you did not say that devaluation occurs before idealization. I was making the point that the emotional attachment is formed before the full extent of the disorder is revealed/recognized.

I don't know your story, but I think that you're sharp and very self-aware. I suspect that as you learn more about BPD and look back on the events of your relationship you will discover that you, nor your partner, exercised much control over the relationship. BPD, for the most part, drove the bus, and y'all were passengers.

Yup, agree with you. I see you are much more expert here, you studied even chemical process of idealization.

So, I agree with you that idealization is part of every relationship. This is that "stomach butterflies" part.

But again, I am talking about too extreme idealization. This too extreme idealization occurs when non-with-issues (I like how someone quoted my term  :)) and BPD met and then you have this cinema love case that most of the people are describing. This is unhealthy. This is not normal idealization, like when two emotionally stable persons fall in love.

Also, you said:

I was making the point that the emotional attachment is formed before the full extent of the disorder is revealed/recognized.

Again, agree. The full extent is not showed. But signals definitely exist. And my thinking is that emotionally stable person recognizes this. It doesn't mean that you need to run away. But your inner alarm needs to raise on this event.

Because I have NPD elements. NPD, in relationship thinks: If I feel bad it must be my fault. This is unhealthy.

BPD thinks: If I feel bad, it must be his/her fault. This is also unhealthy.

And this is endless, unhealthy cycle. Borderline rages, and you are feeding its rage by thinking you can/should fix it.

And by thinking that way, you are feeding their rage. You are triggering even worse reaction. Adding fuel to the fire.

BBS,

Your being afflicted with NPD didn't trigger your ex's BPD. Her emotional attachment/intimacy with you is what triggered her. That cycle that you describe above is told over and over again on these boards, by ppl without any PDs. That was something within your partner; you didn't have control over that. Yes, to some degree it can be managed or made less severe by applying the proper tools (such as S.E.T.), but the BPD is still there and not Non dependent.

Thank you for this compliment. But it actually scares me. A lot.

Because this way of thinking is different. Even radical. A lot of people here disagree.

It maybe shows me that I have very developed NPD case. Because NPDs like to be different, special. I don't even know if I have NPD. I just started to go to the therapy. But considering everything I have read, I see a lot of elements. I think I am not too severe NPD, because they usually don't even admit that fact.

I don't know. But currently, I think that this theory is aligned with my current feelings and opinions about my relationship.

This is something I need to discuss with my therapist.

So , I guess I am not so self-aware :D

Hi blackbirdsong,

You sound eager to do some self-examination, to prepare yourself to have more satisfying relationships in future.  That's a good attitude to have.  In order to learn from your experiences in a relationship with a pwBPD and apply that learning to future relationships, it might be helpful to focus on the specifics of what happened. 

Can you tell us more about why you see your ex as having been the "victim" of your behaviour?  What specific behaviours do you believe you engaged in in the relationship that caused harm or triggered your ex emotionally?

Your opinion is that anyone who stays in a relationship with a pwBPD must be "emotionally unstable".  In what ways do you feel you were emotionally unstable in your relationship?  And what did you find yourself saying and doing, when you felt unstable?

Once you know what your feelings and behaviours were, you can start to look at what emotional needs you were trying to meet with those behaviours, and find more effective ways of meeting those needs that don't harm yourself or others.

eeks

Hi, I already talked about "victim concept" in this thread. Maybe I have express myself wrong by giving an example of us being victims, and stating that they can also say that they were victims also.

In short: Now (I did after the breakup, even I initiated it) I don't consider myself a victim. Nor do I consider her as a victim of my behavior.

But her emotionally abuse caused me to feel like a victim. But I were not emotionally stable enough to take care of myself, recognize this pattern and stand up for myself saying: "Ok, I understand that you have issues, but you can't pull me in depression. I can try to help you but within these boundaries: ... ."

Also, I believe I entered this relationship with codependency issues. I wanted to be needed, and not to be loved. This is something I see a lot in topics here. We think that we need to save this person in order to be loved, we need to fulfill their irrational requirements to help them, not thinking about ourselves. This is wrong image of what love actually is. Love needs to offer reciprocity. We just gave ourselves to them, not demanding anything back. And we thought that was love.

So it is not some specific behavior (She did that, and then I did that), it is our emotional state that triggered even worse BPD behaviour, because we were feeding their irrational needs and like I said: adding fuel to the fire.

Also, I am not responsible of doing her harm. Her disorder does her harm. I just didn't stood up for myself and didn't took care of myself. And by doing that I fed her disorder.



Yes, that is my plan also. Thank you for your advice. I think I already addressed some FOO issues and behaviors I nurtured so my plan is to start solving this.

Right on!

I agree that some nons may also have issues going into the relationship with a pwBPD but I think it's a minority.  If anything many nons get sucked into a relationship because they tend to be very caring and have a desire to help others in need and they attracted to something they sense in a pwBPD.  Then they allow themselves to be brutilized by the pwBPD due to the overcaring nature.  If a non was in a relationship with a normal person these traits can be very beneficial and make a beautiful relationship. 

No one deserves to be treated like described above by Beach_Babe. 

[quote author=steve195915 link=topic=287199.msg12706347#msg12706347

I agree that some nons may also have issues going into the relationship with a pwBPD but I think it's a minority.  If anything many nons get sucked into a relationship because they tend to be very caring and have a desire to help others in need and they attracted to something they sense in a pwBPD.  [/quote]
Data point of one here... .I just got the report back from my psych eval.

"[shambles's] ability to cognitively empathize with others, born out in her testing, often results in ambivalence and difficulty with decision-making, even when she is treated poorly by others. When relationships are rocky, it's hard for her to hold onto her own perspective and experience. Her ability to think and rethink of new possibilities and various points of view may obfuscate simple facts that show she is being mistreated in relationships."

Doormat Personality Disorder. 

I must agree with Steve's assessment here. I can't speak for others, but my BPD/NPD ex played a great victim too and I assumed a caretaking/ rescuer role.

Where true love is concerned, I believe two individuals come together and care for and love themselves first, then eachother. They enjoy verbal, emotional and physical intimacy. This is in stark contrast to the BPD relationship where manipulaton becomes fair game on both sides to fulfil each person's needs. Of the two, I believe the non is in the best position to achieve balanced love.

Once the non has healed some of the wounds around self love and caring , we don't need or want someone to idolise us any more. There's no open need to fulfil and we start to ask healthy questions of those who idolise us or seem overly helpful. The magnetic attraction with a disordered person is gone.

I disagree. Although there are often red flags, I don't think it's human nature to walk around analyzing every encounter we have with people saying "this one is BPD, this one is NPD, this one is schizo, this one is paranoid, this one is xxxxxxx". I think it is good to give people the benefit of the doubt. When she was hyper sexual at the start, I thought she was just a sexual person. When she told me she had childhood issues, I assumed she just had a rough go in life. I never expected what I was entering was a relationship with a disordered individual. In fact it's not until you've been IN a relationship with them for a few months that you begin to realize the gravity of the situation. And then yes, maybe the "healthy" thing to do is to leave. But if a person loves another person, cares about their well being and now has an established romantic history with them full of memories and emotions, who would leave right away? We leave when our ability to tolerate the pain is completely overwhelmed or the pwBPD leaves before we can.

If every person she's entered into a relationship with... .if all the people all of our exes have entered into relationships with are unhealthy... .then the world must be a very unhealthy place.

I rest my case  lol

I need to reformulate this (I think I actually did on my previous posts).

I mean, every person that enters into a relationship with borderline and finishes with "train wreck" feelings after/during this relationship, has some emotional issues.

I think most normal people would love the feeling of their SO showing so much love for them.  I'm not sure exactly what is meant by idolize but the first 3 months my BPDex was on perfect behavior, always said wonderful things about me but not excessive, was happy most of the time but occasionally played the innocent victim so I can come to her rescue, like when asking for money when her car broke down.  I thought it was just normal behavior for having a strong connection of love.  Yes we connected fast but sometimes healthy relationships start that way too.  I don't see how I manipulated her at all.

I don't feel I have an unhealthy need to be idolized but it's a wonderful feeling to have a SO think highly of you and to not be afraid to say so and show it.  Prior to my BPDex relationship I was in a wonderful relationship with a nonBPD SO (8 years) and she treated me wonderfully, always showed love and said good things about me.  Very similiar to how my BPDex treated me except it took longer to get there and was real and not part of manipulation.  The only difference was that my BPDex was much more active and unbelievable in bed, like porno sex.  

Unfortunately my relationship with my non ended because I wouldn't marry her with her 4 daughters.  Probably a big mistake on my part.  

The only thing I would be suspect of the next time is if it happens fast like it did with my BPDex.  I would be definitely be looking for the BPD signs.  

Blackbirdsong,

I don't think that there's a one size fits all for a relationship with a pwBPD. I've read a lot of member posts and some members didn't have FOO issues. I think that what was common with the members that entered our doors is that they all suffered from an emotional wound from a relationship break-up.

That being said we're all different people from different walks of life and we're here to help each other and challenge each others perspectives with what we put out there so that we grow as individuals.

I think that we would be hard pressed to find any partner that doesn't have emotional baggage going into a relationship? Would you agree?

Throughout all of my past relationships I really thought I'd been a really great partner, all in all. I probably was but I (ME!) was attracted and attached to people that had struggles of their own.  At one point years before my exBPD, a therapist asked me if I had ever looked into co dependency.  Oh lord no! Not me... .I'm the opposite of the needy clingly jealous wimpy stereotype of a "co dependent"

I didn't give it a second thought.  That is when "life" brought out the big guns with my uBPDex. I was in denial that I had any issues.  A few years removed from it now I feel like life was telling me  "OK--Soo do you get it NOW?"

A lot of us enter these relationships Naïve.  We want to believe the best in people and that everyone operates by the golden rule.  They don't and that is a hard lesson.  I lived it.  I'm much wiser for my experience.

The idealization is as much a dysregulation as the "bad stuff".  I see that now... .I didn't before.  I thought it was true love.

We want to believe all that pedestal building was real, and all the venom was a result of a disorder, but they go hand in hand.

It just swings wildly one day to the next. Both are NOT healthy.

Apollotech has been very informative on this thread.

I firmly believe that a healthy person can become entranced momentarily, but also that there are limits and boundaries that are crossed beyond a reasonable person's tolerance that many of us on this board struggle with.  A reasonable person's personal boundaries are not an easily erased line in the sand. A reasonable person does not move the line to accommodate their disbelief that someone who claims to love them could possibly consider trampling them. ( read 2010, I'm paraphrasing but shes a remarkable contributor)

I think I once said on these boards... .I wish I had stronger boundaries at that time, but the end result would be the same. Far less time would have been invested. Either I would have left after a few warnings, or he would have left because he was unable to live within my reasonable expectations. It does take two to tango.

Agreed, something I don't like is when people make sweeping statements BPD relationships and the nons who enter into them. This is something I have learnt to avoid through my time here. Everybody needs to remember that despite how similar a lot of our relationships were, the pwBPD and us are still individuals who have had very different experiences with our ex. We all had very different reasons to enter into, stay in and end the relationship with our ex. It can be very dangerous to generalise and assume that our relationships were all the same.

When I first discovered the existence of BPD about 5 years ago, including this board, I remember reading about my part in the dysfunction and dismissing it.  At that time, I couldn't see my part at all, only felt like a victim of his behaviors and true to most of us nons and our behavior, I wanted to help "fix" it.  It was a very slow dawning of realization that I did in fact have a part. 

In looking at the relationship, I know that when I met my ex, I was vulnerable.  I was a few months out of an abusive marriage and had the mistaken idea that leaving that marriage was all I needed to do to heal.  I now realize I looked to the idolization of my relationship with my BPD ex to heal me, and that is faulty thinking.  I had to do the work deep inside myself and because I didn't, I was vulnerable to what kept me in the relationship for as long as I was.  There WERE red flags early on, and I chose to believe the things I saw in idealization rather than the red flags.  I also believed I could help or fix him, which I think is a part of me leftover from my FOO as well as my career (I'm a teacher in an inner city school).

My vulnerability at the beginning of the relationship doesn't make me a victim, but I know that's how I felt for a long time (once devaluation began and I began questioning some of the lies I was hearing).  It wasn't until I began to take control over my own responses to his dysregulations, and began to love myself in ways I couldn't before that I began to see my part. I don't blame myself, except perhaps to wish I had worked on myself before entering into a relationship with a pwBPD (even though I didn't know it at the time).

Despite the lies, abuse and devaluation, I don't feel like a victim.  I take responsibility for not responding appropriately and I have been working hard on working on those things that I need to so I ensure I am never in that position again.  I am taking responsibility for me, and refusing responsibility for his behavior.

And this is actually my point and reason why I started this topic.