BPDFamily.com

  everyone

I thought to bring you up to date.

One of the things my significant other likes to do for me is buy me things and since going to confession I really don't want to return to the old way of doing things. My significant other said he met with a lawyer twice this week and he's going back next week.

I've really been thinking about what others are saying, taking space, not being toxic, not being emotionally immature, not destroying what relationship I have.

So today when I told my significant other that I didn't want to send him the wrong message (by accepting gifts from him before he's filed for divorce) he said this in reply:


I've often thought recently  that by accepting gifts from him I was obligating myself to him, along the lines of FOG.

I think its kind of ironic he's telling me we're in a committed relationship given the nature of things.

Its like he expects something from me by saying that. Furthermore I don't like being talked to that way, it feels like I'm being lectured. (I haven't said anything to him about it yet.)

I don't know what I'm supposed to feel for him anymore. As I said many times I know he's helpful for thinking through things when I have to problem solve in regards to my daughter, in the moment. I have to remember that.

I would like to tell him that I don't like it when he tells me "we are in a committed relationship". I'm pretty sure you are going to tell me to take some space. I have been. I've really cut down on the amount of phone time, facetime, text time.

Any other responses other then take some space? Because really that would be "I'm going to take some space from you because I don't like how you're talking to me".

Can you clearly restate your boundary here please? 

Was he to get divorced?  Show you proof of progressing towards divorce? Specific papers?  ... .etc? 

What was the action you decided to take for enforcing stated boundary?

It sounds like he thinks he has expressed to you that he has 'met the requirement.'

Yet you feel otherwise.

Sunflower, he said he's meeting with a lawyer again on Tuesday. I said I need to see proof he did so he's going to give me a business card. That's why I asked him to hold off on making the purchases until he gives me the proof. He likes to get me stuff for my pantry.

I think what I'm processing now is that I was in a relationship for over 3 years with a  married man however I did go to confession so I need to move forward. I need to be absolutely certain he is making steps to change this and I think for me that means talking to his lawyer. Then I can rest my case.

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I think I'm a bit gun shy because of all the times I've taken him at his word and it fell through.

Will a business card satisfy your requirement?  It seems rather an easy item to pick up from any lawyer's receptionist. I thought you were looking for proof of actual progress toward filing.

Yes I am which I will have to call the lawyer on Tuesday after he meets with her. Thats the only thing that will satisfy me. Its embarrassing but its what needs to happen. Or I can ask him to show any papers which were signed which is what he promised me in the beginning. This is very frustrating.

Pardon my bluntness, but a business card is not proof that anyone is followng through with divorce proceedings. 

I am also confused still on the exact boundary and also the boundary enforcement.

Your original boundary was for him _{to have the curtesy} to provide you with a signed lawyer/client agreement?

Considering all circumstances... .this seemed more than reasonable.

I think the boundary enforcement was more general than pantry items, no?

It is important to be very clear on what it is in advance that you are setting a boundary for and also the enforcement... .otherwise you may appear reactive and controlling vs someone simply living up to stated values.

If it was your value that you feel: it is his responsibility to "prove" he is moving forward with a divorce, and if I were you, I'd not feel satisfied with a simple business card.  If I took the initiative to have to call a lawyers office... .I'd feel resentful.  Also, what happens if they are off for holidays?  Then you are in a bind appearing unreasonably blocking an important event.  Do you really want to take on this type of responsibility?

So far... .the boundary... .the lines of the boundary... .and enforcement all seem blurry at this point to me.

Hi Sunflower, I am sorry you are confused. He met with a lawyer twice this week, he's meeting with a lawyer again next week. I guess I will have him show me something after the meeting.

I think the reason you are confused is that I am totally uncomfortable with this whole situation.

The point of the business card is so that I can call the lawyer. I don't know if you recall me saying that or not.

The reason I made this post is I was thinking about the FOG and about him buying me things makes me feel obligated to him. Then when he made his comment about being in a committed relationship that really rang my bell.

He told me the name and the location of the lawyer.

I'm not sure if he's going to sign anything with the lawyer or not.

Wait a minute, this topic got moved, I thought I posted it on the saving board.

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I guess I'm back to deciding on a direction again. I already chose a path but I guess I have to choose to stay again.

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Do "normal" or "healthy" people feel the need to tell their partner "we are in a committed relationship" ?

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I didn't really  make this post to talk about what's going to happen next Tuesday, I was more interested in talking about how him wanting to buy (necessary) things for me makes me feel and also about his comment "we are in a committed relationship" that got under my skin.

It makes sense that you want to focus on the aspect of FOG, gifts and his reply to you regarding gifts in this thread.  Thank you for helping me understand. 

Sorry, I don't know what to say about that. 

Thank you sunflower for trying. I posted once before about trying to get out of the fog on the staying board. I don't want to feel any obligation to him so I can make clear decisions. I really don't like the fact that I'm pushing him to meet with a lawyer, at the same time he's telling me he's missing me when all that time took place on his clock, had I known the truth about what was going on I would've pulled the plug a lot sooner on his visits.

Hi unicorn,

what I see happening here is a cross roads has been reached.   

you can take the advice that has been offered.   take a time out.   focus on positive interactions.   work towards zero push/pull, manipulations, dodges, complaints and reactions  (that Skip pointed out.)  Stick to constructive comments.   Accept that while not the relationship you want, this is the one you have.   For right now.  Work on your own serenity.   Think of the quote:


Or you can continue down the road you are on.   Which is to have to relationship be picked apart day by day, item by item,  text message by text message.    the compulsion to pick at this wound will keep it bleeding until one of you collapses under the stain.   whether it is pantry items or business cards or the tomorrow's yet unknown issue,   constant unrelenting conflict will destroy trust, affection and any hope of a future.

I think the choice is up to you.     which road do you want to go down?

'ducks

Unicorn--seems to me there is a lack of clarity about the status you are choosing pending knowing whether he is proceeding with the divorce. If you don't feel you're in a committed r/ship, due to his past deception and current status (still married, not yet having shown he is actually divorcing), then maybe the boundary around the divorce needs to be drawn differently.  As of now it seems you have said "if you haven't made concrete progress toward divorce that I can verify by Jan 1, I will need to step away from this r/ship (permanently) (or) (until you show you have taken those steps)."

But your feelings about not wanting to accept the normal tokens of a r/ship (gifts) and your annoyance at his assertion that you are in a committed r/ship suggest maybe your actual boundary is "I can't be in a committed r/ship with you till you are (divorced) (taking verified steps toward divorce. If that happens, let me know."

My only caveat is: if you already told him the first version, changing up now may feel quite scary and unfair to him--not that the second is unfair in itself, but the change from one set of boundary requirements midstream may feel like not fair play, especially if his stance is he is trying to meet the first boundary. Can you tough it out and set the ambivalent resentful feelings aside for one more week till you find out what the status is on boundary one? That might mean accepting gifts that go along with a committed r/ship and not stressing about about that. Are you giving him gifts for Christmas?

Baby ducks I hear what you are saying. I read a lot of the lessons last night. I don't know if I want to be in a BPD relationship. Last night my partner hung up on me and then demanded an apology.


I do not want to be in a relationship where my partner can treat me this way and talk to me this way.

You all are telling me to take space. My partner won't allow it.

I am a big believer that language has great power.  The language we use in our heads in our internal dialogues, and also out loud.

This language communicates to yourself that you are powerless.

You are not powerless.

Taking space or not taking space is a choice you have made.  Own it.  It is ok to learn and harness your power.

Patient and clear, yes. The gifts weren't even Christmas gifts. I personally had no money in my budget this month for gifts for anyone. I just recently drew up a budget (this month) and it's tight. I am making steps to increase my income.

Last night before he hung up , after he called me back, he started talking about missing being with me, not the doing things. Luckily my daughter started talking to me right then so I didn't hear it and didn't have to respond. I don't miss him at all. He came to see me under false pretenses .

There was a part of our relationship I haven't talked as much as about and it probably doesn't matter to most but it matters to me.

A year after I met him his wife came over and threatened to sue him for all he had, according to him. So he withdrew his divorce, according to him to file for bankruptcy. (Now when I looked him up there was no record of that filing either and all he said was he couldn't explain that.) I was very upset by this but at that time I wasn't on BPD family. After awhile I had had enough and told him if he didn't file I was leaving him. This was before I asked for proof. Then more time passed and nothing changed and that's when I asked for proof.

As far as I'm concerned this whole relationship has been a deception. I don't care how he feels about me, that doesn't justify it.

I know some people think I'm engaging in BPD behaviors (push/pull etc) but I'm not. I'm struggling to come out from under the fog.

I hear you sunflower. I also hear that it sounds like some people at BPD family are getting tired of me. I don't know if I have what it takes or want to be in a BPD r/s. Last night my partner hung up on me and then demanded an apology from me.

The one thing I can say I am proud of is I didn't play his game and I didn't fall into his trap.

He's been saying things to me these last few days that have been shocking to me but not because he's changed, because I've changed. I have another set of text messages last night I haven't looked at. Then this morning he's back to his usual affectionate self.

I know some others think I'm engaging in push/pull behavior but I'm not.

I will say it's possible I'm still enmeshed and that's why some others are attributing his BPD behavior to me. The ironic thing is my partner thinks enmeshment is ok.


I can definitely can say one goal I have is to become unemeshed. I've done too much therapy to have his BPD behaviors attributed to me. I'm not willing to pay that price. I know I need to create more space or distance in the relationship.

More of last night's dysregulation , his words except for my interjection
I am proud to say that I did not pick it up , I did not call him back, he actually soothed himself and called me back.

On the other hand I don't know if I want to be in a relationship with someone who's brain works like that. I don't know if I have the energy to constantly be fielding attacks like that. I used to react to them. My reactions to them cost me a friendship. I don't know if I want to be in a relationship where I have to not react to stuff like that.

I know where all this is coming from, my dad. He's emotionally abusive and has been since he was a teenager.

There are no sweet words or no gift he can give me that will undo the kind of damage those kinds of words cause.

I think patient and clear said it best. I need to ride out my resentments until next week and see what my partner produces from the lawyers office, not a business card, but a legal document, and if there is no legal document I'm going to have to tell him to call me when there is. That is my boundary. The repercussions of it are going to be nasty because he's going to accuse me of ending the relationship.

I don't know what the outcome of next Tuesday's meeting is going to be.

I do know I've been strung along for three years and I'm very sick of it. I am waiting to take space until I find out what happens. I know it is my choice to take space and I am choosing to be strategic about when I take space because of the energy it's going to take to uphold a boundary. My partner is like a hurricane and I need to make sure my levies are strong . My partner really scares me, as you can see, and for good reason. We are not equals.

here is what I see as possibilities.

Accept that there are problems in your relationship right now.   It is what it is.  You can't change history.   No one can.

Accept that there is a high level of conflict in the relationship right now that is actively detrimental.

Stop making it worse.   Don't JADE.  Don't argue or explain.  Take a time out in a constructive way.

Let him settle his own emotions.    Allow him comfortable space to move into when conversing with you.

Let your own emotions settle.   

Sunflower is right,  taking a break is something we do for us, a gift we give ourselves to allow things to cool off.

'ducks

Baby ducks, I will try my best.

The conflict isn't in the relationship, it's in me. He's perfectly happy to hang up on me, accuse me of being rude, then text me and demand an apology. That's his normal. I'm the one who is changing. Last night was the first time I saw the ridiculousness of him hanging up on me and then demanding an apology for being rude.

I will review the JADE lesson. I know I have a problem with that. Another one of my partner's philosophies is that partner's should explain things to each other.

What is happening here is I am growing and changing and my partner is not so things I used to take at face value  are now beginning to strike me in an unpleasant way. It's like I'm waking up.

Thank you to you and everyone for taking the time to read and respond to my posts. It really means a lot to me and I really am trying. The age difference makes it really hard for me to stand up to my partner as he's used to getting  his way with people. He was the boss in his business, calling the shots, the one in control, and it shows in how he talks to me.

For some reason what comes to mind for me to share... .

A therapist once told me that the issues we have leaving a relationship, are the ones we carry with us to the next.

Now I am not certain I believe these words.  I am spending a lot of time working in therapy and in other ways before I decide to open myself up to the possibility of dating again. _{I don't believe I require a partner to do such work.}.  So I hope to enter my next relationship in a better place and with more skills and growth than I left the last one.

Yet, those words were about 20 years ago and left an impression on me.  Sometimes I have wanted to have an attitude that, "Well, this relationship is over... .I may as well stop exhausting myself working so hard... .  May as well throw gasoline on it and burn it to the ground... .to create some nice fertile farming land of course.   " Metaphorically speaking of course.

Well, I always consider her words... .and I see great value in how I contribute to the ending of a relationship.  (I realize I am writing in 'undecided,' however, just sharing a perspective... .not encouraging leaving.)  i admit that my last relationship, I am not proud of some of the behaviors that I engaged in at all.  However, this fact aside... . 

Even when the relationship appears to be at an all time low... .

There is much to be learned about ourselves.  This can be a huge opportunity for personal growth.  The way we endure such insurmountable challenges can have a lasting neurological imprint on us to really do some significant self work, that will have lasting benefit to us!

I will always recall my last months of my last relationship... .

(Thankfully, I was still having solo's with MC to help me stay centered.)

-As things started naturally detaching and getting space... .  I was really able to open my eyes and see things from a perspective that I had no idea existed.  It was like seeing color for the first time after having been color blind the whole relationship.

-I learned an unforgettable skill of being able to keep an objective perspective while lots of chaos was happening. 

-I learned to distance enough to stop reacting.  So well that the idea of reacting actually seemed as silly as yelling back at a crying infant.  (No, I wasn't 100% not reacting... .but enough to know enough to keep reaching for this state of mind and how crucial it was)

-With my new perspective, I was able to see so much of his behavior for what it was.  It was soo disordered, it was unbelievable.  So much that instead of becoming upset, I literally sometime looked at him as though he turned into a magical unicorn before me.  I was less angry, more dumbfounded.

-Analyzing his behavior... .and also mine... .and also how the interactions were playing out was like being able to watch a movie.  I was able to easily see the cycles, predict possibilities, and see it all for what it was.  No longer was I having the view as the person within the movie who is unaware of what is happening. (I forget what this perspective is called). I now could hear the scary music and take in all the cues as if watching the movie vs the victim in it.



_{Excuse the wordiness... .it is hard for me to explain.  I was more redundant than needed... .eh.}

Oh... .by the way... .

What caused the detaching was my partner not liking a boundary and getting PA about it.

Before the PA was ongoing triggering from both sides.  So bad that facial expressions, sighs, and even silence could trigger someone.  It was awful!

After his PA... .(he has avoidant styles... .less clingy... .more distancing type)... .well it was only after the distance that I could think objectively.  As I was hypersensitive to the ongoing triggering emotion. 

(Just sharing in case this helps give some understanding as to why some may be continuing to say to you... ."Take space!"

I remember at least being very grateful for having this objective perspective to "see" things and it helped me feel more satisfied with my efforts both in the moment and past efforts.  I had more peace with myself because of this.  I still think back to this time and draw much from it.

Thank you for sharing Sunflower, I really appreciate it.

My partner totally denies his PA and gets really upset it if he even thinks I'm implying he is.

This is my second time on the undecided board.

I am taking space today. My partner sent me 2-3 good morning texts and I replied to one of them politely and that was it.

I am trying to follow Patient's advice to deal with my resentments until Tuesday when I will find out what my partner has to offer me from the lawyer. I am pretty clear on what I am going to tell him, I need to see a legal document that shows that he took some action to move his divorce forward and if he can't show me anything then I will tell him to call me when he can.

I'm quite clear now this whole relationship took place as a deception, so its like I'm building a whole new relationship. As I'm spending time alone I'm thinking about the things I appreciate about him as those are what I'm going to need to build on moving forward.

A perspective I gained this morning is telling my teen to clean her room reminds me of the effort I've been putting forward to get my partner to divorce. I'm very clear that I'm not going to carry that effort into the new year. I don't want a relationship where I'm nagging my partner to get a divorce so if he hasn't been able to take action by the end of the year then we will pick up again when he is. He has told me there will be no separation, if I do that then the relationship is over and I have told him that's not what I want but I accept that's what he's going to have to do. He kept trying  to pin it on me as if I'm the one who would be ending the relationship. So yes, there is an underlying issue in the relationship.

Its funny you mentioned the next relationship because I was thinking that I am no in shape to get in the next relationship. I definitely do not want to bring these issues into the next relationship.

I find being warm about the small stuff that is not the source of the trouble, and clear about the big stuff that is the source of the trouble, leaves me feeling more at peace. Here, the big trouble is the divorce and movement toward it or lack thereof, plus some question about the implications of his extensive deception in the past.

On your big boundary, he is bullying you or trying to shake you from your position by threatening The End if you move forward as you've said you would. I think the best response, if true, is to say "I don't want that" (if you feel clear you do want the r/ship if the divorce moves ahead). "But that's your choice."

I think the odds of him ending things forever just because you enforced your boundary are not great. Nothing is certain of course. At the same time, the way he will find that out is if he does proceed with the divorce albeit more slowly than your current timeline for avoiding a separation. He has choices to make here.

Thank you patient and clear, that helps, that's why I'm remembering the positive things he does for me while gaining clarity on the ground I'm going to need to stand on next Tuesday.

Basically the way its going to have work moving forward is we're going to have to build a whole new relationship. I confessed to having a relationship outside of marriage, that's cleaning my side of the street, in my religion. I would have to confess that regardless if the person I was having a relationship with was married, divorced, lying, telling the truth, that's my behavior. I am very clear on where I stand now, I can't engage in that kind of behavior anymore. I've had men in the past tell me nobody wants to be with somebody like that, and I don't care.

It bothers me that he claims to have grown up with two Christian religions yet conduct himself the way he did, but that is none of my business. It bothers me that he claims the reason he acted the way he did is because he didn't think he was married. That is my business because he clearly was married, at least according to his wife, and definitely according to legal record.

I know a lot of people who live apart even though they live in the same house. My marriage didn't afford me such a luxury, I lived in a 2BDR apartment, there was no faking it, I was either married or not and when I couldn't take it anymore I asked my husband to leave. My partner lived in a 4BDR house so I could see how it would be very easy to fake a marriage with all that space available to hide out.

I really appreciate what you said about putting resentments aside. In the 12 steps you deal with resentments in step 4 and they are deadly. I'm working an adult child program of recovery now and I'm on step 10, and there are some good inventory questions that I think will help me get at the root of the problem.

I wanted to call attention to something I mentioned earlier: I recognize that my father has been emotionally abusive since he was a teenager, based on things he has told me. My father conditioned me to accept emotional abuse as normal. Sunflower had mentioned her therapist saying we carry our past relationship into our future relationship. I have a lot of work to do to get over being emotionally abused and accepting that as normal. 

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I also wanted to add I appreciate you pointing out his behavior is bullying. I was willing to take a therapeutic separation, that was my last post on the staying board, but he wasn't, he told me if I did that I would be ending the relationship. I responded as you suggested and said no I wouldn't but I understood if he needed to leave me. He said I was the one who would be leaving him and there was nothing I could say in response to that.

I think what is going on here is I was accustomed to emotional abuse as normal. I still have problems with my dad and my ex husband and they are both emotional abusive. I really want the buck to stop here. Regardless of what happens with my partner I never want to get into another emotionally abusive relationship again. It would be safe to say that I will do whatever it takes to avoid that, I feel so strongly.

I was posting on the saving board but it got moved over to the undecided board so here I am again. I don't mind reviewing the undecided lessons, I'll do whatever it takes to get it. This time around I'm going to read all the articles in the suggested reading, last time I just went through the lessons.

Unicorn, do you think you could work on slowing down and being less reactive to these little things? Him calling you sweetie, saying "we're in a committed relationship," sending you gifts, etc... .are all totally out of your control and really not that big of a deal in themselves. You're choosing to see a larger significance in these little things (which always seems to go back to the divorce) and get yourself all worked up about it. And you move at a breakneck pace from one little thing to the next, so by the time people have responded to your thread about one issue, you're saying that's old news and what you really want to talk about now is this other thing he just said.

A relationship with a pwBPD requires a much higher tolerance for obnoxious little comments, and much lower reactivity than you've been showing. What if the next time he says something that irks you, you don't react? Change the subject, come up with a reason to end the conversation if you need to, but do NOT say anything to him about the little thing that irks you. Don't even post about it on here. Distract yourself whenever you start to ruminate about it. Wait overnight, or for a few days. Then if it's still bothering you (if you even still remember it), ask yourself if your negative feelings about it are really just another manifestation of the divorce frustration.

I think it could really help you to focus on the big picture instead of playing whack-a-mole with the thousand little things (sweetie, gifts, committed relationship, mate) that remind you of how upset you are about the divorce. As long as you're unhappy with the handling of the divorce situation, any conversation with him is going to include something that reminds you of that. The way out is to address the underlying problem, not continue pecking at the little reminders.

This again I appreciate what you're saying. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that I didn't respond to his comment but brought it here to process. Its actually important for me to bring the things he says to me to here that seem off to me to process. I don't know if you read my posts or not about realizing I'd been conditioned to being emotionally abused by my dad and that I was really trying to break free of that legacy now?

I know its seems like I'm overreacting and that is most unfortunate.

I can say without a doubt I must be enmeshed with my partner because I am being held responsible for all his BPD behaviors. The only thing I can do is disentangle myself from him so I am no longer enmeshed.

I'm also not so much talking about the divorce but the realization that the whole relationship took place under deception, the whole reason I entered into it is because I thought he was getting a divorce, so what I am processing now is while he is telling me he's missing me, I'm not missing him at all because of what I allowed to happen.

I'm also not sure if you read that part about where I cleaned up my side of the street, participating in the relationship in the first place, and that now I'm trying to move forward?

I'm sorry if my posts are tedious to you or bore you, I really am trying to break free of my legacy of being emotionally abused. I really do want a normal life.

Oh I should also add that I did not react to him wanting to send me gifts. The reactions you are seeing from me here are not the reactions he is getting. I am very controlled with him, perhaps too much so.

I will know that I have succeeded when his BPD behaviors no longer get attributed to me, that is what I am shooting for.

What to you would feel normal? This seems like a pretty well-defined boundary or value, but each of us (and him) may define it differently. What's normal to you?

Turkish that is a good question as my partner wants things to be normal too and I find that kind of ironic coming   from him.

For starters he gets divorced, that would normalize things.

Then if he and I had the same emotional experience that would be great.

There's a whole slew of articles on healthy relationships and there's the personal inventory board.

I appreciate your response.

Its too late for me to modify my post so I want to add that normal also includes no deception.

Patient and clear hit the nail on the head when she said
Right now I'm struggling with the fact that I feel like my whole relationship was built on a deception, from when he said he was filing for divorce in July 2012 until when I found out the divorce wasn't filed in September 2015. That's over 3 years. I would have never given the go ahead if I understood the implications of his deception about being married. I believed him when he said he didn't feel married, his wife was a roommate, he was never in love with her. That may have very well been true but it didn't matter as she very much thought he was married to her, and legally he was.

To make things worse my first marriage was filled with deception around my ex husband's drug and alcohol use . So I've never experienced 'normal'.

You're right Unicorn.   That's a lot of deception.   It would naturally create a bunch of stuff.   Stuff internal to you and your unique experiences, feelings and past.   Stuff external to the "how do we put this relationship together" practicalities.

When there is that much stuff going on I find it helpful to pull back to the 30,000 foot elevation.   To try and look at the big picture and take one thing at a time.   For me it takes time and quiet to sort through the myriad of emotions I have.  

what path can you take moving forward, that depends only on your actions,  do you think might help with your feelings of being deceived?

'ducks

I don't think you are engaging in BPD behaviors.

I think you are struggling with your values and spirituality.

This situation is challenging you on a spiritual level. Good and evil. What is right, what is wrong. Your posts are filled to the brim with small events that have enormous impact on your thoughts of right and wrong. Your hurt and anger over being tricked into a relationship, the guilt and pain.

Every thing he is doing and saying is like being struck and beaten. You feel every blow.

It must feel so demoralizing to have taken the steps for yourself into a new spiritual practice that aligns with your own values, and then find yourself in such a struggle with a loved one, your self, and that here you are, feeling like an OW and all the associated morality of that. It's tearing you apart.

Every effort he makes, from his side a loving one, from your side if you accept the tokens and word of love, are directly counter to who you want to be. And you are feeling compelled to be in the hot seat while he is riding the fence all this time.

It seems your relief is only going to be found in detachment of some sort, instead of this daily struggle to every contact with him.

Are you speaking of how you feel - or how you are making him feel?

You don't feel push/pull. I think we see that. You have a mindset in which everything you do makes sense emotionally (not necessarily intellectually). OK.

But how is it received by others. For example when you pronounce a "boundary" (ultimatum, might be more descriptive) and when he meets it, he still get rejection.  If it was me, I would feel push and pull. He has told you it feels push and pull. It scarring him and the relationship  - and those scares will be as deep and the deceit has been you you.

So when you say, you are not doing "push and pull", what does it mean in the context of what is happening? Just that you don't feel it or don't intend it? Isn't that how it always is with push and pull?


Herein lies the push/pull.  You tell him you want the relationship to work, but you only have conflicting feelings. He has picked this up.


Normal? I'm not sure that is the word. Are you meaning uncomplicated?

I don't think uncomplicated is in your future with this person - less complicated, maybe. You say he has a personality disorder. You say you have a Trauma- and Stressor-Related Disorders (PTSD). You met and became engaged when he was married. It's a long distance relationship. He has significant tax issues. You have basic honesty and communication problems and the near term road a head has either more procrastination on the divorce or the high stress of a divorce.

If you are looking (or waiting) for uncomplicated, its not in the next year for sure.

Same bad things have and are happening in this relationship - every week. Both sides.

I don't think this is going to survive what the two of you are doing.  I know you say a therapeutic separation with third party over-site is not a priority fr either of you - it might be your only chance. Someone has to be in the middle explaining to each of you what you are doing to the other.


I agree with thisagain on this.

Skip, I can't bring about a TS if he is not willing. I also explained to my mom and her friend last night that a boundary is not an ultimatum.

Baby ducks, I don't know if I can recover from the deception. Last night I was reading my old threads and was reading a lot about taking space. I was trying to find the thread about how to deal with it when he said he wanted to marry me. I'll keep looking later.

Daniell85, you hit the nail on the head however in this case I think my family and their friends feel sorry for me and think I'm being taken advantage of. Part of the problem in my FOO is my mom and dad have different values. My dad doesn't have an ethical problem with the situation my mom does, however she didn't raise me with ethics so it's a bit hypocritical of her.

(I will respond to some individual quotes later.)

Thank you everyone for your responses! I'm having a really hard time right now and I really appreciate this board.

I do not know at this point. I can't tell him how I feel because he has a PD. I think the fact that I have accepted  I've been deceived is huge progress for me . When people first started telling me I was being deceived I couldn't hear it but for better or worse I believe it now. I still don't think it was willful or deliberate on his part, but the effect is still the same.

Quote from: unicorn2014 on December 24, 2015, 09:47:01 AM

I know some people think I'm engaging in BPD behaviors (push/pull etc) but I'm not. I'm struggling to come out from under the fog.


I hear what you are saying now and I realize he probably does feel the push/pull dynamic and that's because I can't tell him how I really feel. I can't tell him I feel deceived, I can't tell him I want to put the relationship on hold until he gets divorced. He has told me if I do that he will leave me. I have to be willing to lose the relationship if I tell him that and I'm not ready to do that yet. I also can't tell him his being married to someone else is causing conflicting feelings in me because he will probably make all kinds of excuses and attack me. I have to be ready to deal with the results if I speak my truth.

Quote from: unicorn2014 on Yesterday at 10:02:33 AM

Turkish that is a good question as my partner wants things to be normal too and I find that kind of ironic coming from him. For starters he gets divorced, that would normalize things. Then if he and I had the same emotional experience that would be great.

skip wrote


No, I'm meaning healthy as defined in the article on healthy relationships. I think that would be an issue for the personal inventory board.

Unicorn, it seems to me a key question for you at this point is whether, if your partner fixes the divorce situation now, you are willing and able to forgive the past deception and move forward.

All he can do at this point is fix it as quickly as possible. He can't change history.

I can understand why the deception is so hard for you to swallow. Especially when it was ongoing this fall with the implausible stories he was producing to fend off your questions.

But--if you are ultimately going to forgive him, you want not to shred the goodwill between you on the way there. On the other hand, if you are not ultimately able to forgive him, making him go through a trial/test now (taking concrete steps toward divorce) seems beside the point.

I would assume that question will need some time and, ideally, support from a therapist of your own. (I know there are resource issues about therapy.)

patient and clear, I am in DBT and I do have access to an individual therapist for myself. What I was saying is I can't pay for a therapist to supervise a TS that he doesn't want to do. I really appreciate your post and your contributions.

Not complicated. Don't call it trial separation. Call it relationship rehabilitation.  When each of you talk privately with the psychologist, you tell the psychologist what you want and let him deal with your _______ (formerly known as Prince)  *)

I suspect your boyfriend would be glad to pay for some sessions if it would resolve some of e conflict.


Isn't this what you found repulsive about his deception. He didn't tell you the truth because he didn't want to suffer the possible risk of consequences - so he lied to you.  

If was bad when he did it.

How is it when you do it?

This is toxic stuff, unicorn2014.

You both are trying at some level, but there is a lot of dysfunction in the way you deal with each other - he was handing it very poorly - now you are too.

Its good that he is talking to an attorney, but the way you too interface with each other is steadily deteriorating.

Skip I hear what you are saying and I was able to tell him today that I wasn't happy with the way things were.

I'm not going to ask him to pay for a psychologist. I'm trying to the best of my ability to follow patient and clear's advice to compartmentalize my resentments until Tuesday when my ____________ (and that's an appropriate way to denote him at this point  :) ) talks to the attorney again. In the meantime I have emailed my sponsor and asked her for help with these resentments as they are over my head.

My __________ really wants to be involved in my life right now in a way that he can't be and its frustrating to me that he thinks like this.

I had a thread on the staying board that dealt with what to do when he talked about wanting to be married to me at this point in time, that is prior to his divorce. I think some one might have said I could end the conversation at that point. If I find that quote I may pull it and review it again in a new thread as I think the original thread is locked.