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So lately (the past two days) my partner has been talking about not wanting to eat when he doesn't feel safe. Today he likened himself to a cheetah that kills its prey but then drags it up into a tree to eat. (We were talking about my D15, she just got back from an overnight at my brother's and I don't think she ate much as he has a different diet then we do.)

Well, last night it was even worse, and I am sure this gets into some codependency issues on my part which is why I'm asking for help here, now.

Yesterday he told me he didn't feel safe so he wasn't eating. Y'all are gonna love this. Yesterday he spent the day reading about therapeutic separation. Of his own accord. I half wondered if somehow he found my posts on BPD family and had been reading them but of course I didn't say that.  He made sure to tell me in some cases its not recommended. He said something that really irked me, said he knew all about it after reading about it. I had to laugh to myself at that one. Anyhow, here's the part I need help with:

I was really stressed out by his not eating yesterday In fact I said something ridiculous to him, don't facetime me until you eat something. When he repeated my words back to me I realized how silly they were but I really didn't want to be around him when he wasn't eating.

I am proud of myself for not "saying you know there's medication that can help with that, or you sound depressed, or  that that's not a good thing, that's a sign of mental illness," but its still bothering me. I did make a joke to him about him making a hunger strike against himself, to cut the tension.

I don't want to be around him when he's in that state.

What's a nice, polite, gentle way I can say that to him?

I don't have empathy for him.

I think he needs to get help.

I think he thinks I will have sympathy or empathy for him because I have PTSD but I don't think that kind of behavior is charming or endearing. His second suicide attempt is what brought me to the board in the first place 2 years ago. I'm not saying he's suicidal now but the reason he wasn't feeling safe was because he said his future was being threatened because I am being serious with him now about my boundary about filing for divorce. To me not eating is sign of serious depression.

I'm very uncomfortable when he says his future is being threatened because I am saying I need him to take action on his divorce or I'm going to have to take a break.

My former sponsor used to tell me how much pressure I was under in my relationship.

So, what's a nice, polite, efficient, BIFF, way to deal with him when he's not eating because he feels threatened? Meaning to say of removing myself from him for the day.

I was so anxious last night I couldn't fall asleep. It was bad. I do not want to be around him when he's like that, its not good for me. Its his right or choice not to talk to a doctor, therapist, psychiatrist, whatever, but I don't want to be around someone who's symptomatic like that. I find it disturbing and distressing.

(Also on the flip side I am thinking about forgiving him for deceiving me, I know that is my part, and that is what I have to bring to the table, and I'm working on it.

I've also been giving much thought to what it means to be in a relationship with someone with a mental illness. I had been reviewing some of my old threads where members had been talking about my partner's intense fantasy life about us being a sign of serious mental illness.)

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I think my SO may have some waifish traits... .even though he's a boy  :)

One thing that I see in this thread is a focus on YOU and your feelings, How you are feeling when you hear these things from him. This is a big step to discovering our own selves. It's an important one. Co-dependents often focus on how others are feeling, not a bad thing to be perceptive except that with an overfocus on others, we ( I'm including myself since I struggle with these traits) lose contact with who we are and what we are feeling.

So, your SO says something and you feel kind of icky and stressed. You tune in to "you" and find that this feels not so emotionally healthy to you. You don't feel empathy for him and you think he needs help. You feel uncomfortable.

It is important to recognize these feelings. You don't have to act on them.

These feelings are the invitation to the drama triangle. What do I mean? Well before I understood my role in my family, these feelings- would pull me into the drama as a rescuer. It was unconscious and automatic. It was also co-dependent. My feeling uneasy about someone else would result in me "rescuing" myself from these feelings and jump on the triangle.

Now, I see these feelings as a great sign to tell me "Attention, Triangle ahead" . Stop and do not proceed!

So what is a nice, efficient thing to say to him when he is not eating?

NOTHING. for now, nothing because what he is doing ( possibly unconsciously) is dangling out a flag to be rescued by you, from his bad feelings. What takes away his bad feelings? Blaming you- a focus on you. Just about anything you say can get you into these discussions and relieve him of his feelings- which will likely leave you feeling bad. Anger feelings can act like a drug. The triangle drama can be like an addiction- for all the players.

To take a look at this one incident ( part of a larger pattern) what is he saying? Although we want to help people who need help, caretaking is taking care of someone who does not need it, usually to make our own selves not feel so bad. We don't want to enable people.

Is this something unexpected or unfortunate? No. Is this something he is not responsible for? No. Whose responsibility is it to take care of his basic needs? He is. He is an adult. Even a 6 year old can make a sandwich. He can too.

Why would he say something like this? Is he starving or in dire straights? No, the only reason to say this is to make you feel bad. It is manipulative behavior. This is that icky feeling that you get. When I feel this around manipulative people, it is my signal that I am possibly being manipulated and invited onto the drama triangle. That is when I stop, do nothing and think.

If I feel I need to say something, it is something empowering to the other person. It affirms their capacity. " I have confidence that you are able to take care of yourself" But before I say anything, I have to process my own emotions, so that I am speaking from an emotionally stable place. I can't do that when I am feeling icky, otherwise I am not able to resist the comments that could follow from anything I say.

The "icky feeling" is a signal for me to do something to take care of myself, not the other person. Take a walk, a long bath, listen to music.

Although you are feeling yukky right now, don't try to get rid of that feeling with any co-dependent behavior ( trying to help/fix him). The icky feeling is you needing attention from you! Pay attention to it. Recognize it. It is the stay out of the triangle sign! :)

My pwBPD's eating habits are all over the place.  Now, she doesn't give any excuses like your partner does, so I'm not really sure how to help with that.  But as Notwendy said, the last thing you want to do is try to "fix" this for him.  Once, after eating a lot of food, my pwBPD said to me, "You have to monitor what I eat because I can't."  I just looked at her and then continued with what I was doing.  She's 23 years old.  If she hasn't figured out by now that eating a bunch of macaroni and cheese, a large wrap, and a bowl of ice cream at one time is going to make her stomach hurt, there's nothing I can say that's going to make her realize that.

I have to admit that, early on, I fell into this trap of doing what she did, to try to make her happy.  If she decided she didn't want dinner, I didn't eat dinner.  If she wanted to drink a lot, I drank a lot.  But that didn't make me happy.  I like dinner, and I don't really like drinking.   

Growing up with a mother with BPD, I was used to being affected by someone else's emotions and feelings. It was as if I became very perceptive to them as a survival mechanism ( we monitored mom's moods). I had a friend in college who had an eating disorder and it was hard for me to eat when I was with her. It was as if I could sense her feelings. They were not my feelings. I didn't have an eating disorder.  but I could sense them so easily.

I think this is perhaps a skill many nons have, and it is a good one, in context. I think it is good to be empathetic. But if we grow up with poor boundaries and we are sensitive, we have to learn to be empathetic and also say " this isn't my problem".

I am astounded when I meet people who this is easy for. Also astounded for people like my mother who seems oblivious to how anyone else feels. This is possibly because she is so focused on her own feelings, she doesn't see much else. The problem with being co-dependent, is that the co-dependent is so focused on other people's feelings, that he/she doesn't see their own.

Boundaries/middle of the road/ what is yours and what is mine is the challenge. For nons it often starts with focusing on us. This feels self centered but it is a step towards healthy boundaries.

His body- his food- his eating- his responsibility. Yours is yours.

Wow thank you!

Not Wendy wrote


It is funny : my mom, my ex and my partner all cause me to feel these icky feelings so getting rid of my partner will only solve one piece of this puzzle.

What you wrote is so empowering.

I hate it when my partner talks like that, it makes me feel icky as you said.

It's just like his choice to sell his house and move into the basement of a warehouse. I didn't make that choice. I wouldn't make that choice.

Thank you both of you for your posts.

It is funny how my partner pushes buttons my mom installed.

Both of them have issues around food.

One thing my partner did was lose weight to try to appeal to me, now he weighs less then me, according to what he told me.

My partner and my mother would both deny being manipulative .

I am shocked that after 3.5 years my partner is still trying to manipulate me. That doesn't make me feel good about the relationship at all.

As I said many times I lost a sponsor over this relationship.

I have a new one now.

I'm going to add on to my own thread, this morning I woke up to two different messages from my SO saying
I paid attention to my icky feelings. I don't feel that way at all. I'm not his companion. I'm never once been to see him. He's come to see me but I don't need a companion. I'm very happy carrying about my daily activities independently.

I didn't respond to either of those texts.

Not Wendy do you have any advice for this other problem?

He wrote another text where he is apologizing for having his ringer  turned off yesterday by accident. He's apologized at least three times. Again I got the icky feeling. I had told him no big deal, it's to be expected in a long distance relationship . Then he said he's sorry on many levels. I do not want to pick that up.

Do you think it's a good strategy to ignore text messages that make me feel icky "I'm lonely for companion" "I'm sorry on many levels". ? I don't want to pick up his feelings this morning. I have enough problems on my hands with my ex which I may have to post about on the coparenting board. I have three problem people in my life.

I get that icky feeling most around my mother. Our FOO issues impact our relationships. The icky feeling is a good one to recognize.

Really, even though I have learned to manage my mother, I feel as if I have to take a long shower to wash the ickyness off afterwards.

I don't think we can respond to others from that feeling icky place. I really have to take some time to get my feelings together. Not responding doesn't mean the silent treatment, reacting, or punishing. It means I have to get myself together before I can handle another person.

It is OK to disengage and get your feelings together, but sometimes it is good to let the other person know that you need a time out. It is up to you to judge. I might ignore some texts that are irritating. Or, I may say " I need some time to think about this".

This is a great response because, it simply states what you need. It doesn't criticize, blame, hurt. That doesn't meant he other person will like it and they may test it. But then, after saying " I need to think about this" you don't have to reply further until you want to.

Or you can say "thank you for the apology" or "I am sorry you feel that way. I will be busy for the next few hours and won't be able to talk, so talk to you later" then ignore.

Thank you not Wendy, I printed out some old replies to one of my old posts and I may start a new topic about why I am staying in the relationship.

My former sponsor said my r/s was putting a lot of pressure on me.

I'm also having problems with my d15. My d15 refuses to see a counselor so she may or may not have a disorder.

Maybe I'm a bit hardened after being with a husband with BPD all these years, but a silly hunger strike like this wouldnt be worth my concern. He doesnt want to eat, fine. He's not going to starve to death. My husband pulls things similar to this. It can indicate a need for comfort, so I'll try and help him talk about what's really bothering him. But if he persists in playing games like this, I'm not going to keep trying. I will emotionally disengage and then spend my time and energy on something worthwhile.

Thank you Anna 17. I really like what not Wendy said about identifying when I'm feeling icky and taking a step back. I don't want to know how my partner is feeling. I'm want him to take action to solve his problem (being married to someone else). I have no sympathy for him as long as he is married to someone else. That's why I'm undecided and not staying. I can't even marry my guy yet.

I think that's a great strategy!  |iiii If you feel up to it, you could consider a brief reply before you ignore (like Notwendy's I need time to think, or I'll be busy for the next few hours). But then ignore whatever he says in response to that.

I also agree that you should really think about WHY these things are causing the icky feelings. Do you think maybe you just feel icky about being in a relationship with him at all? Him missing you (to an extent), calling you his companion or mate, sending you appropriate gifts, calling you pet names, etc all seem like they could be perfectly normal things for a person to do and say to their fiancee of 3+ years. You and he are "in a committed relationship."

Re: the eating, I don't think it's "ridiculous" at all to not want to talk to him when he's in that state. Being hungry can seriously exacerbate emotional dysregulation, and you don't want to be around a ticking bomb.

this again wrote


I pulled a bunch of quotes from form flier, flour dust and chump from a previous thread about being called emotionally abusive by my partner so that I could think about why I am in this r/s.

Previously I had stated to get help with my daughter, but that's available to me in a limited fashion from a parental stress line, so that can't be the only reason.

I also emailed my sponsor about dealing with a resentment against my SO for lying to me for 3 years to keep me in a r/s with him. That resentment comes and goes.

Tomorrow he is meeting with an attorney again and I hope it goes well.

I really would like my SO to step up to the plate and marry me and be my D15 SD, that's what I want, however he can not give me that when he's married to someone else.

I would like to be able to put back on my engagement ring.

Thank you for hearing me out about not wanting to be around my SO when he's not eating.

Yesterday he made a point of telling me he was going to eat something, and then he fell asleep so when I tried to call him he was unavailable. I am glad I didn't pick up the part about telling me he was going to eat something until today.

I'm trying to stay on message with my SO: I want you to get a divorce, that is the best thing you can do for me.

I think it is a reasonable boundary to not want to be involved with a married man. One can not be engaged to a married person because he or she is not available to be married.

He may be having a difficult time with this boundary because it means he has to make a decision. Although he may blame you for his discomfort you did not cause this. He is the one who got himself in this pickle- engaged while still married. He wants you to be OK with this but your truth is that you are not OK with that and you have a right to your boundaries. This is not OK with you and if he wants to marry you then he needs to not be married to someone else first.

Your side of the fence is to take inventory of your own behaviors and any of your contribution to the drama in your relationships. It is great that you have a sponsor. We have to keep our side of the fence clean. Their side is up to them.

Thank you not Wendy it sounds like I have a lot of work to do on the PI board.

We all do... . :)

I think you are doing really well with figuring out your FOO dynamics, getting help from a sponsor and holding on to the boundary of your SO being divorced before committing to you.

We are all a work in progress!

Thanks Not Wendy, he says he is meeting with an attorney tomorrow to put her on retainer but I don't know if that's enough for me. I took off my ring, I don't refer to him as my fiancé, but he still talks about wanting to marry me. Next time he tells me he's committed to me do I tell him he can't be committed to me until he's divorced from his wife? I'm almost certain that will dysregulate him.

I was actually looking for some of my old threads about what to do when he starts talking about wanting to marry me was talked about. The problem is I already accepted a commitment from him before he was divorced so now I don't know what to do. When I accepted his marriage proposal I was inexperienced  and naive and didn't fully get that you couldn't be married to one person and engaged to another. A lot of people do that, but that doesn't make it ok or healthy or sane. Now I realize its not even a valid marriage proposal so there's not even an engagement to call off. He's just my boyfriend, although he wanted to dress it all up in fanciness and fluff.

We always have a choice in our agreements with other people.


Engagement is just that. It isn't marriage. Why do we even have engagement- if two people want to get married, why not just do it?

I think the purpose of engagement is blurred in today's times- people know each other pretty well by that time. But in older times, the purpose of engagement was to see if two people were compatible before they made the more serious commitment to marriage. In some cultures, this even meant dating with a chaperon. The two people were supposed to learn about each other. Then, if they decided they were compatible, there was a marriage, and if not- the engagement ended.

So, you accepted an engagement and then discovered that your SO was hiding a very important detail from you- he is still married. I am not a lawyer, but to me that would mean the engagement is null and void.

I know that this is simplified, but think of it this way. Someone offers to sell you a car. You agree to buy the car. However, before you pay for it, you discover that the car belongs to someone else. You can't buy it from him, because someone else owns it. You would not be obliged to buy the car. In fact, he can not sell it to you.

Marriage is a legal contract. One can not be married to two people ( at least in western culture). Your SO can not be engaged to marry someone when he is still married.

I think you can agree to get engaged after he gets divorced, if you still want to marry him, but if you don't, then you can also not promise to marry him. You can stay in this relationship if you want to, but you can also not stay. You have a choice, even after marriage, but marriage is a much more serious agreement to break. Engagement is the time where one can choose without breaking marriage vows. Your choice is yours to make.

Does calling yourself "committed" or not affect anything concrete about your day-to-day relationship? You're not dating other people, you would give it a lot of serious consideration before you broke up with him, he's very involved with your daughter and family, you talk every day. His involvement with your daughter is more characteristic of a spouse than a fiance (let alone a boyfriend). That sounds like a committed relationship to me? Telling him something like that sounds like more quibbling over labels and symbols that ultimately don't mean anything real.

And I agree with everything about how wrong it was for him to lie about being married, lie about the divorce, etc... .I'd just encourage you to think about some options for meaningful actions you could take (not things you could say) to try to improve the situation for yourself. Can you think of any?

This again, well, I looked up the attorney he's going to put on retainer and she's a bankruptcy attorney not a family law attorney.

I don't know what I can do to improve the relationship.

Not Wendy he sent this message to me an hour ago


I don't know how to respond to his message. What he is saying to me about being able to count on my (narcissistic) father is not true. In fact in my last therapy session my therapist gave me the traits of npd from the dsm. She said to me in parting not to expect my dad to do for my daughter what he couldn't do for me. My pwBPD knows this.

I don't either. You've done a great job of defining your values and telling him exactly what you would need to continue in this relationship. A lot of us have lost relationships after implementing the Lessons here, because of clarifying our values and enforcing our boundaries.

But if you want to continue in the relationship, or in the meantime while you're deciding, what can you do to reduce the emotional strain this is placing on you?

Here are some example ideas - you might reduce the frequency and/or length of communication, never bring up your feelings or opinions of the status of your relationship, refuse to engage in any discussion of the status of your relationship, refuse to take any responsibility for his divorce, reduce or end his involvement with your family and ex-husband (which it sounds like you might be doing?).

No need to explain why you wouldn't do any of those. You know better than I do whether any given option would be right for you. It just seems like the status quo is not sustainable, and the way you'd like the status quo to change (him hiring a divorce attorney and filing) is out of your control.

And the nuclear option would be to end the relationship and go NC until you get a file-stamped copy of divorce papers in the mail or some other satisfactory proof. But you'd have to be prepared for the chance that it might never happen, he might be proposing to some other woman within a month, etc.

This again, thank you very  much for your helpful reply.

I am working on reducing the amount of contact. He asked me if he would be seeing me on facetime tonight, I told him I communicated my thoughts to him, he responded by saying I've made my choice, and that's where we're at.

He's very introverted so I'm not worried about him proposing to another woman. He assures me he's never felt this way about anybody but me and I believe him.

I've been trying to disengage from conversations about the status of our relationship for a long time.

He's not actually involved with my ex husband anymore but he does have a relationship with my brother and my daughter.

These were his last messages to me which I did not respond to.


I had told him to call the bar and ask for a referral to a divorce lawyer after I found out the attorney he was seeing today was a bankruptcy attorney. He canceled that appointment claiming I was complaining about the attorney he picked and asked me to pick a divorce attorney for him.I don't even live in his state, much less his county.


That's where things are at this afternoon.  

It appears he is holding the relationship hostage and threatening to leave me if I do not comply.

This is cruel on his part as he knows I am an adult child of a borderline mother and he knows I struggle with abandonment issues however I am not responding to him.

I'm definitely not ready to go nuclear today. I hope I can stand my ground and not give in to him. What I am asking him to do is very reasonable. What he is asking me to do is not.

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Modified to add:

As I was closing out of my web browser I found these messages from him which I have not answered


This is a position he likes to take, when I uphold my boundary, he accuses me of breaking up with him. I'm not ready to leave him yet. I've told him if I get to that point I will make it clear to him that I am leaving him. I have said nothing to him about leaving him. I simply stated that I expect him to call the bar, ask for a referral to a divorce attorney, and let me know he has done that. He is telling me he expects me to do that for him. I am telling him I will not. That's where things are at. I did not engage with those text messages.

It's interesting, in a way you're both doing the same thing (refusing to talk until the other calls a divorce lawyer). And both accusing each other of the same thing, holding the relationship hostage when you could easily fix it by calling a divorce lawyer. You're both stirring up each other's abandonment fears.

The difference is obvious to us Nons: it's his divorce, not yours. But you two have struggled with boundaries for most of the relationship. You haven't established a clear division of what's your business, what's his, and what's shared; way too much has been made shared business. And pwBPD are naturally bad at boundaries. So I'm not surprised that he's failing to recognize that it's obviously his job to call the attorney to start his divorce.

Depending on how you approached the earlier conversation about the bankruptcy attorney, I can see how he might get frustrated and say "well fine, you do it then!". I'm getting the impression that he feels overly criticized and very confused by how you've been talking to him about the relationship. And he has some basis to be feeling that way.

I'm not sure how best to handle this, just making some observations really. I'd maybe consider trying to validate any feelings of frustration that came up during the bankruptcy-lawyer portion of the conversation. And clearly reiterate your position, that his divorce is his responsibility and you don't want to talk to him anymore until he's retained a divorce lawyer for the purpose of divorce (or until he's taken some other step of the process if you prefer).

Or, if you're sure that you communicated your boundary clearly to him, you could hold your ground and see what happens. I think this boundary is a huge leap forward in your progress that you should be very proud of.  |iiii But I can also see how it could be really jarring and upsetting to him, partly because of his own BPD stuff and partly because of the high-conflict relationship patterns to which you've both contributed. So I don't think it would be the worst thing to help him out a little with some validation and a gentle reminder of the boundary.

One small point of clarification, I did not tell him he was holding the relationship hostage, I told the board that. I know better then to tell him that. I don't really think that way, but I know that's how he sees it. I would prefer to use the language I learn from this board rather then the language I learn from him.  :)

I am pleased to report that he called me to tell me he would capitulate and do what I asked. I told him he was going to have to wait till the morning to do that and he said he would talk to me tomorrow. I did read a bit about brinkmanship and that is definitely not a good tactic to take in a personal relationship. I am glad that I did not budge. This is a first in our relationship, we usually connect every night on FT. Tonight is the first time that we are not connecting as a conscious choice and not the result of a dysregulation.

He used the BIFF method of communication with me which was kind of amusing. I didn't exactly like being on the receiving end of it but it was better then his prior  verbal abuse.



We will see what happens.

I would like to move back over to the staying board but I do need him to put a divorce attorney, not a bankruptcy attorney, on retainer in order to do that.


Thank you very much for helping me to get to this next step. This is truly one day at a time. I'm not going to get my hopes up but I'm also not going to be cynical. I'm going to wait and see what happens. I will probably need my hand held through this process by this board. I appreciate you all being here for me. I do have a sponsor to help me with my adult child issues but in terms of my partner issues this board is it. There is no 12 step group for partners of borderlines.

 |iiii  |iiii  |iiii  |iiii  |iiii

Hopefully he follows through, but maybe more importantly, I see you coming out of the FOG and that's awesome. Glad we were able to help

Thank you this again, I will report back tomorrow to let the board know what happens. He said he will have two lawyers for me to look at tomorrow and he wants me to help make a choice. I don't mind doing that because that means he took the initiative to call the bar and choose two lawyers. I will then tell him I expect him to put this person on retainer. I don't know how it works when you put a lawyer on retainer. I will have to look that process up to find out if the lawyer gives the client a signed document. I'm assuming they do. My own divorce was very simple, I went to a family law center, got a lawyer, and filed for divorce.

Its funny you mentioned the FOG because I met with my NP today and I actually told her that I didn't want to put myself in a position where I was dependent on my pwBPD for anything because I did not want to feel obligated to him in order to make clear decisions about the relationship . It looks like things are moving in that direction. I appreciate all the help I've gotten from this board.

This board is helpful but for a group for partners of borderlines, I think the best fit is CODA if you wish to check that out. I would venture to say that all partners of pwBPD struggle with codependency at some extent. I also think codependency can (does not mean in all instances )occurs in addition to being an adult child of dysfunction and also forms of addiction.

I know people who attend more than one 12 step group. The process is similar for different situations.

I don't have any advice as to how to reply or communicate with your SO or what to do in your relationship at this point .I think you have stated your boundary and I hope he follows through.

Thank you Not Wendy, I actually was a member of CODA as a teen. Little did I know that as an adult I would be  a relationship partner of a pwBPD. I even worked the 12 steps in CODA with a sponsor. I guess they didn't take the first time through.  :)

He said he would capitulate and call the bar tomorrow and ask for a referral to a divorce lawyer so we will find out in the morning if he has something for me.

I hope he does.

There should be a signed agreement, and he should be able to get a copy.

Definitely enjoy your night of peace and quiet! But sometime soon I think you should start planning for how you're going to set and enforce boundaries along the way to the divorce. (Along with thinking about whether this is still the relationship you want in general, as people have mentioned in other threads.)

I'm wondering what happens if he talks to the lawyer but never shows you a signed retainer, or retains the lawyer but drags his feet on filing, or files but then says they gave him a trial date in 2017 (could be a lie, could be the truth), or gets into years of drama with his ex-wife over a settlement... .you get the idea. Do you think that might happen?

I think it would get really ugly to have to threaten NC in order to get him to take each next step of the process. That would be "brinksmanship," as you described. Not the way to work toward a lower-conflict relationship, and would probably continue eroding at the relationship until you're left with nothing.

So be proud of yourself for setting this boundary, but also start thinking about how you want this to progress.

Do not believe him when he says you are breaking up with him.

That is your choice. You know if you made it or not. He cannot tell you that. No reason to fear those words from him.

Also no need to prove to him that you haven't left him yet. No need to argue. Don't engage it at this lev (if at all!)

Thank you this again, I was referring to brinkmanship in terms of his behavior of trying to make me call the bar for him. I would never engage in that kind of behavior myself, its not in my nature. I didn't give in so he capitulated. So I think the next thing I will tell him I expect from him is a copy of the signed agreement between him and his divorce lawyer. In terms of when he files, I will encourage him to file between work projects. He is looking for encouragement from me. I can encourage him if he is moving in the right direction. Calling the bar tomorrow morning is moving in the right direction. We will go from there.

Thank you grey kitty for those words. I think that's the first time I've heard something like that.

In the future if he accuses me of leaving him or the relationship I will simply say for my own sanity's sake "I am not breaking up with you", unless I make the choice to leave, which means I will be posting on the leaving board, not the undecided board.  |iiii

Oh my goodness.  Am I imagining things, or didn't he say a couple weeks ago when you first informed him of the end-of-year boundary/limit you were setting, that he HAD contacted a lawyer and he HAD told her that you would probably be calling her?  Wasn't that when the humiliation discussion happened?

I don't think calling the bar for a referral for a family law lawyer on Dec 30 is what your original boundary entailed, was it?  He is pushing-pushing-pushing this to see if you mean it.  Thisagain's point above is right -- it's important to be very clear with yourself and with him about what your boundary means.  Tomorrow is going to come and go and AT MOST he is going to have called to schedule an appointment with a lawyer he has not yet met.  If you continue in the current relationship on those terms past Thursday (Dec 31) I'd say he has effectively called your bluff.  And, at this point, it is too late for him to accomplish anything else.  (And the responsibility for that being the case is entirely on him.  You gave him plenty of lead time.)

Unicorn, if you want to hold onto your position, I don't see any effective alternative but to tell him you'll re-engage him in a committed relationship (not an engagement) when and if he has actually filed for divorce and you've seen that divorce petition with a "FILED" stamp on it.  He is testing to see if you meant what you said.  He did NOT do what you said you needed, if I understand that original boundary conversation correctly.  Have you backed away from that since?  If you have maintained that position, about concrete steps toward divorce -- he has not done that thing.  Plus it sounds as though he continues to tell untruths (the story about the lawyer he said he told about the likelihood you would call).

I think you have much to gain and little to lose by being ultra clear about what the line is and what your minimum requirement is to go forward in a committed, more-than-friends, relationship.  I'd suggest a divorce petition that says "FILED" date-stamped on the front page.

Patient and clear, he has met with an attorney twice last week, and was going to meet with her a third time this week when I found out she was a bankruptcy attorney. I pointed this out to him and he canceled the appointment and told me to pick a family law attorney for him. I told him I would not do that and that he needed to call the bar himself and ask for a referral.



He wants me to sign off on the lawyer because he does not want a lawyer I disapprove of. The lawyer he met with last week was actually his second attempt at getting a lawyer. The first lawyer he picked was also not a family law attorney.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

He is providing me with names of lawyers and I am looking them up.

I feel comfortable about investigating the lawyers without contacting them myself. I do believe his divorce is high stakes so I can understand why he might be anxious about it. I did talk to my brother about this last night and I think he has a good take on the situation.

I already pointed out to him that he cannot be committed to me while he is married to someone else.

I am not completely without empathy towards him. I didn't have empathy for him when he wasn't eating, but I do have empathy for him about contacting a lawyer. I can only imagine what he is going through. He is my partner but he is also my friend and as his friend I do have empathy for him.

I do want to validate the valid.

I need to stay focused on the positive.

I think this is a very good point.  You set a boundary, yet it appears that you have got involved in taking responsibility for his part of 'respecting' that boundary.

You essentially are making sure he doesn't break it.  And now you are moving the boundary... .to further allow his 'success.' Essentially putting his 'success' above your values.

This is not a good precedent or foundation for a long lasting healthy relationship.  It communicates to me that when you set a boundary, I can pretend I don't understand it, I can get unicorn involved in being responsible for it until she actually is so invested in me not breaking it that she moves it.

I think that is why boundaries are made up by starting with values.  The value was that you did not want to be involved with a married man who was not actively seeking divorce?  Well... .you helping him part of the way in 'seeking' divorce, is still not him taking responsibility for divorce. I see this as a problem. His divorce is his responsibility, not yours.  To get yourself involved with that essential basic issue... .is really blurring things and setting a poor precedent... .and just not a way to enter a relationship with an available/willing man.

Why not allow him to keep the bankruptcy lawyer and communicate to him the consequence of your boundary?  (Vs 'helping' him)

I was thinking that something about this bothered me but I couldn't exactly put my finger on it.

I think it is a lot like a drama triangle... .  Except you are playing the roles of both persecutor and rescuer.  You persecuted him by threatening the end of the relationship with your boundary setting, now you are rescuing him from the consequences by enabling him.

I am not saying that you actually have persecuted him in any way... .yet that was his perception.  By rescuing him, you in a way, validated that perception.  Helping him do something he is capable of is a way of putting him in a victim role.  He is capable of getting a divorce without your help at all.

At this rate of speed and with the complexity around each decision and action he takes, this divorce is going to take a very, very, very long time.

Have you read the divorce postings on the Legal board?

None of his stories make any sense at all.

If he's supposed to be hiring an attorney for a divorce, why would he go see a bankruptcy specialist not once, but twice, with a third appointment scheduled? What do you think is happening in these meetings? I'd assume they are talking about filing for bankruptcy. If you go to a bankruptcy attorney and say you want to file for divorce, she'll say that's not her line of business and refer you to someone else. She won't schedule more meetings to talk about how she can't help you with your divorce!

It's not hard to find a divorce attorney. They advertise. They're on the Internet. Your boyfriend knows how to use the Internet. I just typed "divorce attorney mycity" into Google and got back pages and pages of hits. Lists of attorneys with their addresses, business hours, phone numbers, websites, even reviews! Elapsed time of the search: 0.45 seconds.

Your boyfriend is willing to spend days, weeks, months JADEing about why he can't/hasn't found a divorce attorney, but he's not willing to spend 0.45 seconds actually doing it. Why do you think that is?

The only reason that makes any sense to me is a very simple one. He doesn't want to. He could clearly do it if he wanted to. But he doesn't.

You can go down three paths here.

1) You can argue that he does want to and buy into or JADE even more stories to explain why he hasn't spent the 0.45 seconds finding an attorney. This is avoiding reality. This is the wrong path to take.

2) You can wonder WHY he doesn't want to get a divorce. You can confront him or speculate -- all sorts of scenarios are possible. Considering he is someone who has built his entire relationship with you on lies, it's not much of a leap to imagine what else he might still be lying to you about. But this is also the wrong path to take, because it's still about dysfunctional, deceptive engagement with him.

3) You can use radical acceptance. He could have found a divorce attorney, but he hasn't because he doesn't want to. Accept that. Let your feelings about it play through you, without reacting to them. Then ask yourself what that means for you and your relationship. You have to decide what's right for you, once you accept who he really is. That's the right path.

Sunfl0wer he chose to cancel the appointment with the bankruptcy  lawyer, I had no say .

I have not read his messages yet. He wants me to help choose a lawyer. We will see if he sent me three lawyers. I will give some thought to whether or not I should be involved in his divorce.

Unicorn

Just be cautious with this whole thing like you guys advised me , do you think he is triangeling if I may ask ?

I personally think that your involvement in his divorce is both inappropriate and toxic.

Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

Toxic because you and your SO have been in a control battle over his divorce for years now, and every step of it involves you nagging, him delaying and deceiving, and both of you becoming more hurt.

Boundaries are about knowing what is yours and what is his.

His divorce (making changes to HIS marital status) is his business. Not yours.

His current status (married to someone else) is your business.

What you do in your relationship with him is your choice. How long you continue while he is married and what you do in these circumstances.

He probably is, but since I already agreed to it, I couldn't back out. I chose the lawyer and told him to call the lawyer in the morning and call me after.

Thank you Grey Kitty, I appreciate the clarity. I realize I've sent him mixed messages, allowed  him to have a relationship  with me from July 2012 when I found out he was married and he told me he was filing for divorce until September 2015 when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed. The question is what to do now, moving into 2016.

Is there a way I can state this to him, Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

I will be the first to admit I am very confused.

I, too, suspect that your partner would be hard pressed at this point to say what your bottom line -- what he needs to do for you to feel satisfied -- is.  Clarity about expectations and needs helps a lot when the other person is trying hard to dislodge your boundaries, argue that they did in fact meet them when they didn't, etc.

To address Grey Kitty's concern about involvement in the divorce, how about something like this:

"Unicorn'spartner: hi.  I've reflected a bit and reached a couple conclusions about the need for me to do things differently.

First, I want to stop picking at you over little things that aren't even necessarily wrong, when what's bothering me is the more longstanding issue that you are not available to marry me when I had thought you were, and my understanding of what is happening on that front (divorce) keeps proving inaccurate.  That (divorce) issue is big for me, but because I have no control over that, I have been focusing on current dynamics between us when they probably are not really the problem.

Second [if true], I still want the plans we made and the connection we've shared.

Third, because your status as still married matters a lot to me, I've allowed myself to become involved in that process when really, it is your business and these are your decisions.  I care which choices you make, but it is not my job to make them.  It isn't my role to help you get divorced, pick the lawyer, or clear the way, and if I keep doing that, we are both going to wind up resentful, I suspect.

So.  Let me just say that I still feel as I said a month or so ago -- that I will be glad to resume a committed relationship with you when and if you've filed for divorce.  I would love for that to happen but I can't be organizing that.

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from."

***

I'm no expert at the communications tools on this board, so others may be able to present the same information better, in SET or DEARMAN format.

And then, until he files for divorce, you need a very clear understanding of what you are willing to do by way of communication if you are suspending your committed relationship.  It should look pretty different from the committed relationship, otherwise the boundary has little meaning.

Hi patient and clear, that was very helpful and I copied and pasted it into a note to work on it myself. I've identified I'm depressed. I actually saw my np yesterday and I am suffering from moderate depression. That falls under the self reflection step so I will write about that when these threads are locked.

What I meant here was
What I am saying is I allowed my partner to have a relationship with me from 7/12 to 9/15 with the assumption that he had filed for divorce. When I found he hadn't that changed everything. When I say I am confused I mean I am confused about how to go forward from here. He insisted he filed and his lawyer did not. The facts prove otherwise.

I really appreciate your continued input on my threads. The position I am in is very embarrassing to me, I have to be very careful not to beat myself up for not seeing the light sooner. These past two nights are the first two nights in all the years we've been face timing that I've taken two nights off. So I'm taking baby steps to taking space. I also stopped sharing my location with him today, and I turned off his calendars.