BPDFamily.com

Last one reached some kind of limit so we can continue here.

Thanks for all the comments people are sending me privately, I appreciate it. Woke up at 6 to work on my community project, even that I'd much rather stay in bed. I need to finish it within 2-3 days because my new study program is starting in less than a week.

I contacted private detectives to look for help with what I wanted to do, but it seems it's illegal in that country and they wouldn't help. So now I feel worse. I might go back to my original plan - become friends again with low contact, wait for a meet up for coffee to catch up and then never show up. Or drive us "somewhere nice", stop in the middle of nowhere and tell her to get the ___ out of the car.

Hey NCEA. I've read through the previous thread. I'd like to know what you think you'll gain by taking revenge?

I'll be honest in saying that I tried to take revenge on my ex by emailing her dad, trying to humiliate her. It got me absolutely nowhere, all it did was reaffirm her narrative that I was a horrible person who hurt her greatly. That narrative wasn't true at all when she left and replaced me, but after I took that "revenge" that narrative was absolutely true.

You are making a lot of mistakes and assumptions about the person with BPD. You are making the very dangerous mistake of assuming that she will react to being humiliated in the same way you did. This is not an even playing field. Being this reactionary will do nothing for you, it will only make her behaviours worse.

I know it is hard to overcome these feelings of anger, but you said you have been feeling bad for 3 months. That is nothing in terms of recovering from a traumatic breakup. If you have been struggling with this for this long, it might be time to consider therapy if you haven't already in order to overcome the damage that has been done by this relationship.

Hi NCEA

I agree with makingmyway. You are dealing with someone who probably doesn't think they have done anything wrong. Imagine if you where dumped in the middle of nowhere and in your mind hadn't done anything to deserve it. What would your thoughts be and how would you react? You would probably think your ex was a psycho and you would tell everyone about what the crazy ex did to you.

Yes you are hurting and wanting justice. Ive been there. You are dealing with a child in adult form. If you look at everything she did as if she was a child in the school playground (school yard for the Americans here) then you will see how similar it is. Does a child think they have done anything wrong? Does a child weigh up the consequences of their actions? Even when caught red handed a child will think punishment is unjust. What a child doesn't like is being ignored, is seeing people doing better than them and having more fun than them. A child wants to be special and the centre of attention. By taking that away and thriving you will hurt them ten times more than any revenge you can take.

Yes, please get some therapy, try to heal and abandon this revenge plot. You're not thinking clearly. If you were seriously looking into something that private detectives had to inform you was illegal, then you need to rethink your state of mind. You're hurting, sir, and it's potentially driving you to do something unnecessarily hurtful and damaging.

It's illegal only because they have med laws over there. You can't even follow around someone unless you are a husband. If you're a boyfriend, they can give you a report but no photos. Nothing else is allowed. So it doesn't mean anything about my state of mind. 

But the obsessive behaviour does NCEA. I don't mean that in a bad way. Im not saying theres anything wrong with you but you like most here are dealing with something that the majority of people will never understand.

Im certain I had PTSD by the end of my relationship. I was obsessive, I wanted revenge, I was addicted to her still. It hurt that someone else could have what I wanted. It hurt to feel discarded and worthless.

Understanding what drives us can help. I realised that I was just as angry at myself for being taken in and allowing my ex to do what she did than I was at her for what she did.

Ive seen my ex wife want me back as she was jealous of what I had and what she was missing out on. It felt good. It felt like I was twisting the knife without even having to do anything. I saw the look in my exgfs eyes the other day when we talked and when I mentioned I wanted to be mortgage free in a couple of years. They went sad and I realised that she knew I could do it but she never would. Even though I don't do these things intentionally I can see how they upset my exs. I realise every holiday photo of me off having fun put on fb must have hurt them. Every small interaction with friends must wind them up. Their minds race when they don't know what weve been doing and they come to the conclusion that we are now happy and thriving while they remain where they always have and always will be.

This project I'm working on now, it's a project I came up with with her (but my idea), we started working on it together but just throwing ideas around. It should be online within days, I'm sure she wouldn't believe I've actually gone thru with it. I wish her nothing but pain and suffering and if it's mind hands it's better.

It is a natural reaction to want to hurt the person who hurts you.

This tendency comes from the reptilian brain -  the primitive, instinctive brain function that is shared by all reptiles and mammals, which is wired to fight or flight.

(https://bravetherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/reptillian-brain.jpg)

Will revenge give your relief from your upset and make you feel better and help you get over the relationship?

In the extreme, we read everyday of the guy that killed his girlfriend for hurting him. This is a particularly graphic one nydailynews.com/ (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/florida-man-disemboweled-girlfriend-sex-cops-article-1.2369154). She wasn't even awake.

But most of the time its something less intense. Smear campaigns are a favorite - especially remote campaigns on the internet. Here is "hold nothing back example: mentalillness-bigfish.com/index.php/whore-diseases (http://www.mentalillness-bigfish.com/index.php/whore-diseases)

Dimitri Doukopoulos has 6,700 internet citations.  I'm sure a lot of girls want to date this guy.

Are these guys poster boys for emotional maturity?

We all have these thoughts. The deeper the wound, the more likely we will have these thoughts. The depth of the wound has to do with what happened and/or our propensity for narcissistic wounding.

But very few act.

Talking about it on a message-board provides some relief. In this sense, the more members say "don't do it", the more relief.

Just some thoughts... .

Living well is the best revenge. Trust me they will fall on their own. I'm 40 and have yet to see unfortunately one of these girls do anything but get in bad situations. Karma or God or life or nothing whatever u believe in will get them .BPD or any event they have had to deal with is no excuse to treat people like ___. NC!

Dude, just a personal story for you. A little bit over a year ago, I was ghosted by somebody who I thought was my "soulmate". It felt like the love of my life, the person I exchanged 100 texts/day for 6 months straight, died in a car wreck. The first 2-3 months out, I am fairly certain if I submitted myself for evaluation, I'd probably be deemed to be certifiably insane. My mind was flickering between a suicide on one end of the spectrum and ordering a hit on her on the other end of the spectrum (I was seriously wondering how much it would take to order a hit). This is coming from a guy who would rather catch a fly and open a window for it than to kill it.

Here are I am 13 months later and I can honestly tell you, this $hyt just isn't worth it. Walking away, getting your head together and leaving the person who doesn't want to be in your life out of it definitely is worth it 100%. If she is indeed PD'd, she doesn't see things the way you see it. What you think of as a "revenge", who knows how she will interpret. In the end, it all doesn't matter. Can't move forward if you keep on wasting brain power on the past.

Great post. It's difficult, though, when the person you're trying to forget seemed so unique and special and one-of-a-kind. It's hard not to feel like you'll never experience that kind of love again.

Revenge is definitely not conducive to healing, though. Some anger is fine but when you're trying to strike out at your ex, well - BPDs have ways of foiling those plans and making you wish you had kept to yourself.

^^^exactly, revenge to the BPD is what they want. Action and reaction for their own entertainment is the BPD girls code they live by. You really want to mess with them... IGNORE.

Believe me I wanted him to get what he deserved . But honestly the holding onto a grudge or revenge will only change you into a spiteful, bitter, vindictive person. Many people get used and abused in this life. It's a terrible thing! Especially when all you did was love and care for this person. But they are not normal. They have a mental disorder. She didn't set out to hurt you. In their mind they playcate themselves into thinking this time it will work and be different and when it doesn't they blame the other party. If you do something to her like leave her somewhere or pretend to care and then leave her. It will likely hurt you as well as her and it will keep your attachment to her going . It is not a healthy route to go for either of you. I feel consumed by thoughts of him still and that pisses me off. But once you make a decision to let go . Time is the only thing that will give you the proper healing and prospective. They don't get off Scott free! Their lives are always in turmoil . Even during the idealize phase. We may think it's so great but they are experiencing different feelings. Fear, is a big one of them. And anxieties as well.  So even when they are idealizing you they may have fears come up that they won't share . And starts the Devalue in their mind. They think and move at a different process than us! They always look for the negative and they are super sensitive and thin skinned so everything can hurt them. They have a lifetime of regrets and losses. Don't think she screwed you over and you're the only one to suffer. She's done that to many guys before you and after you she will continue and she won't be happy herself. Planning a revenge will take up your time and emotional and spiritual energies . And when you finish I bet you that you won't feel as satisfied as you hoped. And all that time and energy you put into planning and plotting it now you have to start from scratch to let go again. It becomes a vicious cycle . Take the high road. They'll never learn their lesson and always blame you . 

Exactly. It is a passing feeling for me. I remember that I love(ed) him very much. I would never want to hurt him. I hate that I had to end it. He said at Christmas that after his kids leave, his life would be so hollow without me. I know that is true; however, mine is chaos with him  :'(

Guys... .if you make someone lose their job, which is what I'd like to do, there is NO WAY to not get hurt by it or twist it against you or whatever. Her work enables her to travel where she meet up with all her lovers, it would devastate her totally. I'm working 18 hours a day on my social project, I'll get back to all the detailed replies soon. Thanks!

Good luck NCEA I hope you get your revenge. Were on the same page over this. if someone betrays someone or hurts them, of course they deserve payback

In cases where infidelity and its hurt is at stake, a revenge plot designed to deprive the cheater of something that was critical in your relationship (basically your rivals or the means to them) is begging. It's an aggressive, elaborate and disguised way of crying and saying "I'm so sad and helpless, please feel something." But because the ego cannot accept this and the person cannot bring themselves to saying this (due to social and psychological reasons), they come up with a more acceptable (to the ego) way of dealing with this. In most cases, there is a fantasy that the deprived cheater will come back crawling to them and they will be the ones doing the rejection - like we saw in the other revenge example example. Even if she never knows who did this to her, you will have begged to her. If that gives you satisfaction, if you feel that it restores your pride, do that really. It will not change the world in any particular way anyone notices. There will be one mentally ill person deprived of men and one man who begged. The world can live with it. It's one of those supposedly self-serving things that doesn't even serve the doer ultimately - and paradoxically.  

Trying to disguise this under justice doesn't work really, again the world has other definitions of justice.

You don't want other people to be hurt by this person? Expose her legally and openly, without hiding behind secrecy. Justice doesn't hide. If you are really doing this for the sake of other people, you've got to give them the right to be the judge here. So, present your case openly in front of a crowd, tell how your relationship started, what went on, what you think your mistakes were and how this person is ultimately "evil" in your eyes. Let people decide. They will protect themselves if they want to. Anything less than giving reality to people under the disguise of justice is, again, begging.

You don't want to deal with the consequences of dealing with a mentally ill person this way? Start looking at the causes, effects, workings of Cluster B relationships (which are more symptomatic than personal really) and educate people on these. This truly saves lives.  

You don't choose to put effort into that? You can donate some money to organizations that are doing this.

You believe in personal payback by trying to make someone lose their job (so that they can't find men and feel devastated!), what does that say about the man doing this? I don't know if men here attribute "power" to this behaviour, I as a woman don't see anything powerful in it.

It would cut her supply and humiliate her. I'm well off. I wouldn't put any energy into it. In a perfect world I'd pay someone $10k, send them away, and would only want an email saying "it's done". I'm not into drama or keeping contact, if I could have it my way it would be surgical swift accurate and clean. It's simply about getting even and I have no doubt that emotionally I'd cut my healing time by half.

Regardless of her actions, your actions are yours.

Its not revenge. The relationship is over, heal from your wounds.

All it would do is continue your involvement.

NCEA, what help would you like in this thread?  What advice are you seeking?

Well, it seems he wants that we basically validate his intentions, even if we explained him carefully - multiple times - that revenge is pointless in the long term... .

Perhaps some members could take something valuable from this thread... .what does it say about us when we continually persist in explaining a moral concept... .to someone who is refusing to hear us (doesn't 'get it' ?... .Haven't some of us participated in a similar dynamic before?... .

We're all in this together... .

NCEA is obviously hurting bad... .he lost someone he loved.

NCEA, what help would you like in this thread?  What advice are you seeking?

I think I'm trying to offer a different view.

That our hurt is irrational and deeply emotional due to the humiliation factor. And that letting "time" heal us is basically saying that we're waiting till we FORGET. Forget their face, their smile, their sex.

I'm suggesting something that sounds childish, yes, but also different, saying that the feeling of hurt should be dealt with "head on" by retaliating and restoring personal power via ACTION against our aggresor.

Not popular? Maybe.

Sounds crazy? Sure.

Might cut a year or two of suffering by half? Probably.

Can you honestly say that making them suffer just a fraction of how much you did wouldn't make you feel better? Give me a break. I'd literally give away a month worth of my income for that. I wouldn't even think about it twice. Just send me a PayPal account and it's done in 20 seconds.

So this is your goal: "(retaliating) Might cut a year or two of suffering by half? Probably."

Skip, what is your opinion about this?

NCEA ... .as others have suggested... .this is an ego reaction on your part.

If I reacted with my training and physical presence/cunning to every slight I 'felt'... .my life would be a chaotic mess and I would have been incarcerated multiple times by now.

My peace comes from acceptance of another persons behaviour towards me that says absolutely zero about who I know myself to actually be... .and speaks volumes about who they are.

ps... .my understanding is that codependents have a tendency to attempt to mitigate conflict and chaos with support, empathy and insight... .I think thats why your anger and desire for revenge have recieved so much attention on this thread(s).

I understand all of this on a primal level. I make the choice to put that rage and energy into myself; making myself better so I will attract a better quality lover next time around. Hang in there.  |iiii

Please tell me I'm not the only one who is sitting here wondering why we are still talking about this.

I've read through all of this, and here are my thoughts, based on previous comments.  

NCEA - You mentioned once that you "know" your ex would never commit suicide.  I'm sorry, but this isn't something you can ever know.  I am a high school teacher, and my ninth grade students (ages 14-15) just observed the one year anniversary of a former classmate's suicide.  This young man was in 8th grade and had lots of friends.  No one knew how much he was hurting inside, until it was too late.  My dad's cousin committed suicide.  The night before, he ate dinner with his family, just like he did every Sunday.  He didn't seem distant or anything.  He laughed, talked.  And then, he left, drove out into a field, and killed himself.  A woman my mom went to nursing school with committed suicide.  The night before, my mom went out for dinner and drinks with her and a few other classmates.  All you have to do is search the internet to find stories of people who took their own life after showing absolutely no warning signs.  My BPD friend tried to commit suicide in June.  The day before, we laughed and joked and made plans for me to help her with an activity she was doing in one of her classes the next day.  The next morning, I didn't get any texts from her like I usually did, but she had been devaluing me for weeks, so I didn't think much of it.  Then, I showed up to work and didn't see her car in the parking lot.  I went to her classroom and didn't see her.  I texted.  I called.  I left messages.  I texted more.  I called again.  And then I finally received a reply:  "I'm so sorry SummerStorm.  I love you."  She sent me that right before the ambulance came to take her to the hospital.  

I will echo something that EaglesJuju said in Part I, which is that your ex, if she truly does have BPD, hates herself more than anyone else.  When people ask me why I still talk to my BPD friend, I always say, "Because, at the end of the day, she hates herself more than she could ever hate--or claim to hate--me."  

Believe me, I have been through hell and back the past 7 months.  I spent a majority of the summer in bed.  I've walked around my house and looked for places from which I could hang a noose.  I've been angry.  I've been sad.  I've been everything in between.  

Do I hope that things don't work out for her and karma bites her in the rear?  Of course.  And I'm saying that as someone who is still in contact with her and recently considered going to see a movie with her.  And really, I know that things won't work out for her.  Since August, she's been with at least four different guys.  She graduated from college with a teaching degree but is currently working the night shift at a gas station.  She can barely pay her bills.  She lives in a crappy apartment.  Her mom recently told her that she refuses to give her any more money.  And I didn't have to do anything to make any of this happen.  She did it to herself.  

There are times when it really does seem like she gets joy out of hurting people, but I know that's not really the case.  She tries very hard to be a better person, but she just doesn't have the emotional maturity and coping skills that would allow her to do that.        

If you are taking revenge do your best. Make it big and never look back, that is forget about it and most important never regret it. Karma doesn't exist at all. I wish you good luck from the dephts of my heart. Only someone that hasn t been hurt as much as I was would recommend to stay NC.

Newton, I understand your point but I don't think the attention given to threads is only directed at the starter of the thread. In this sense, I think the dynamic is different from, say, interpersonal relationships involving two people only or digital settings where users send private messages to one person. Even if there is something codependent in this, I think different contributors also get the chance to see how many other people have experienced similar things (validation or a hint for us to change), what ideas helped them to get through etc. so it's actually beneficial for all of us. Some comments made me think of boundaries in ways that didn't occur to me before.  I personally think this more communal aspect of open threads always helps more than one person.

thisworld ... I agree totally... .hence why I offered personal advice to NCEA... .and to other members in my responses (plural)  |iiii

Yes, I know:)) The mode of interaction and questions in this thread is great for self-awareness and so are alternative and constructive attitudes. Sometimes we learn by doing:)) 

Sometimes we do learn by doing, when repeated behaviour... ends up with significantly negative consequences for us ... (my response to post thread) or zero consequence (my response to contributing members on said post thread) ... often we just repeat that behaviour and we feel like crap, frustrated, even more hurt... even more of a victim.

In order to break this cycle... at some point we need to adopt the position of observer consciousness and refuse to give in to our base reptilian responses to stimuli and/or herd mentality.

|iiii

NCEA,

Skip asked you what advice you need and you've replied that you are offering a view. Given that you don't need advice (which everyone should be completely OK with), I'd like to focus on the latter, your views - which are actually not childish or anything - as I would expect you to be well aware of. But, I'll say, let's do justice to those views as well;  I don't think we are treating them properly here.   

I also thank you for bringing up this topic that goes against the grain and focuses on something other than forgiveness, roots of which go back to the origins of Christianity in some cultures. I think ideas can only be enriching as we get a chance to see where we all stand in life and how this contributes to our healing. 

I think I have stated before that I don't believe in forgiveness, and I'm on your side in this feelingwise (though I'm not in practice because I think targeting someone's job because you were cheated on makes you just another aggressor, not a victim - this is exactly what Judith Herman was describing.)

However, I think, for ideas to be enriching (especially for the purposes of this forum), there needs to be dialogue. Or basically, some people just become an audience for an idea that doesn't develop or lead anywhere. Maybe that has uses, too, I don't know. I personally feel, so far, that I get your view and unless you expand on it a bit, there is nothing left for me. I'd like to carry on interaction here but of course, that's completely up to you. You don't have to expand on your view or approach it critically for purposes of healing just because I like your view. Completely understandable for me.       

If you'd like to offer your views on your views though, I have the following on my mind (and I'll connect these with the questions others have asked you from opposite/different perspectives and you haven't replied):

So, I don't think your views are crazy. On the contrary, they require the cool head of beautiful Greek Antiquity. As I think you very well know, you are talking about Nemesis, a form of retribution. I personally am tremendously enjoying the fact that she was "the goddess of indignation against, and retribution for, evil deeds and undeserved good fortune. She was a personification of the resentment aroused in men by those who commited crimes with apparent impunity, or who had inordinate good fortune." (Theoi.com)

I am also loving the connection that she was the avenging agent in the story of Nikaia (what a nymph, is she related to your nick?) and Narkissos. I personally love this because modern psychiatry has only recently discovered what Ancient Greeks probably knew all along. The BPP-NPD dance is famous. In one word, I love Antiquity. But it should be treated with respect. Not every act of revenge can be based on Nemesis.

Nemesis: righteous indignation. In Nicomachean Ethics (ETHICS!), Aristotle describes this as a reaction. People who use this feel betrayed because there is this belief that bad things happen to the bad, and good things happen to the good. For Aristotle, nemesis isn't a virtue but it still appears at the bottom of a list of ethical virtues.

Now, Aristotle had to put it there because he is talking about ethics. That's why he has to work within proper definitions of good and bad. Otherwise, this beautiful concept becomes something like "dog eat dog/homo homini lupus" It's not about good/bad, right/wrong, everyone is hurting everyone, let them do what they want basically. That needs no justification and there is nothing to talk about. Some people feel good with this, others don't. What is there offer in this? We know this. 

At the moment, this is where I see your "revenge" is. You mentioned protecting boundaries retroactively but haven't replied Mutt's question - which, to me, is the only thing that can define a framework. Here is his question again:

This is your relationship history.

"I guess where we met - in Greece, 3 years ago. I've met her and her friend outside of a vacation house.  We spoke the three of us, and as they are French and are very open sexually, we ended up in sort of a 3some. I slept with her friend, but not with her, she watched us and kissed me, but no sex. At the time she was in a relationship that was falling apart. Years later I'll understand what it meant.

"Three years later I'm living in Argentina for a couple of months and post on my FB "who wants to visit me?" . We only wrote each other a few times in these past 3 years but now she wrote that she needs a vacation and "sort of a in a break from the boyfriend" and wanted to come. I said yes.

She came over to visit me and we spent 9 days together and "fell in love". She went back to Europe and started love bombing me, and we went into a long distance relationship."


The question: How do you define boundaries?

My question: You say these women go on about hurting men. How can you justify that when you were her knowing partner in crime? What's your ground for Nemesis?

If you don't have a ground for it, a framework of ethics, how can you say that hurt "should" be dealt with in a particular way? What's your ground for "should"? What is it that you want to convince us, what's your backing for your ideas other than your psychological state, which doesn't imply "should" at a collective level. (If it does, why?)

If you have been simply talking about your frame of mind and your personal desires without any backing,

Awakenedone asked this: "Can your ex be "crazy in love" with someone after 4 days? Or is she just doing something that is crazy that you shouldn't take personally due to the fact of her being crazy?"

(To which you replied, ":)oes it matter?" I hope you can see that it does.)

Unless you explain yourself a bit better, you seem to be offering as a view nothing more than this: Ugly behaviour is OK if (we feel) someone wronged or hurt us, if we have personal reasons for it and justify it by saying that it is relaxing, healing whatever.

This as a view is neither provocative nor very original. At least on this forum because our BPD partners operated exactly along this anyway and we are very familiar with this. For some of us, this is the very reason why we left them.

Can you offer us anything beyond this?

I always am interested in individuals' definition of 'appropriate ' in these situations. ... .where's the line/boundaries.

I think the op is similar to many of us. He has intimacy issues and thought that he could be vulnerable w her. Then blammo she burns him and needs him less than he needs her. My  opinion--what he gave her was a gift. Freely given and if she abused it, that's on her. Apparently the op feels differently and wants to play the Dark Knight and exact personal justice. That's cool, just don't let the baterang smack you in the face cuz when Batman gets all tingly over a chick the Dark Knight rises. My 13 year-old kid told me a joke like that.

I've humiliated my bpwBPD, but it wasn't ex post facto. It was at the moment I felt wronged. It was relatively direct, to the point and bent. Looking back, I feel meh about it. Wasn't some lasting cathartic experience and basically I was mirroring her. Playing some faux BPD. In the long run I realized I'm better than that and so is she. But words are cheap and you'll need to go there for yourself. Romantics, such as yourself, I'm surmising, believe amor vincit omnia, but some women wind up teaching things beyond a previous philosophy. Don't hate the player but the... .

OK. You have a "view" and want others to see the wisdom of it. Hopefully you have your response and we'll move forward after this second thread on the subject. Talk is good.


To answer your question directed at me.

Bowen says we mate with our emotional equal. In other words, we have within us, some of the same elements of emotional immaturity that our exes do. A core feature of BPD is a personality that operates with low executive mental functioning - more of a reptilian brain.

That was sobering for me to learn. It took me a while to peel back the cover and see it, but it was there.

So sure, I can operate at that level. I could have road rage. I could avenge every narcissistic wound. I could affect payback on everyone that wrongs me. I could live by fear - fight or flight.

My focus (rightly or wrongly) was to "grow up" in my recovery and be more mature than I was in my relationship. I invested my emotions, time, and money in three givebacks to my community. I reached out to people I normally would have passed by. This website was one of those.

The road traveled was not one of punishing a little girl for her mental illness, but to feel how her immaturity hurt others and understand that know that mine did too - and it did  - and I worked to change it. Hopefully, I have.

NCEA, for what's it worth, I have had the opportunity to see a lot of different recoveries here over the years. I know some members that have gone the revenge route. And while I can't speak for all, or say they all had the same reaction, I can say that for the most part, these were very angry people that only got angrier in time - that they focused their recovery on the feelings injustice of their relationship - and it only grew.  I know of more than one man that eventually killed himself over this.  I know of more than one man that was ostracized by family or friends over their bitterness.

One size doesn't fit all. We all deal with this matters differently. Maybe you might consider alternative ways to invest that one month discretionary salary that you have. Maybe you have to follow the course you have already charted.

One thing that does "fit al"l is that we come here to learn from each other, so that hopefully we don't have to learn, first hand, the hard lessons that some of our brothers have already learned for us.

I know you hurting, man.

Damn, Skip. I wish I had known you IRL. You have great qualities.   :)

Just tell him that he is "sexy on the internet" and virtually make out!

I all seriousness, my BPDex-wife is miserable.  Every day I know she is.  She hated seeing me happy when we were married.  She hates it more now.  She loved to talk to me after my breakup with my BPDex-gf.  The difference is.  I know that I attract what I project.  I learned to attract my BPD ex-wife over 15 years.  It's all I know.  I am now learning to cope with it.  To look inside myself.  I am not saying that my ex-wife didn't do "me wrong" by having multiple affairs and getting pregnant with some other dude's kid.  I am saying that there were things I did to make it worse.  Before she got pregnant, I openly told her that I was going to cheat like she had.  She couldn't handle it.  

I still don't know if it was the wrong way to do it but my actions certainly influenced the outcome.  She likely got pregnant on purpose to snare him like she did me.  We were emotionally abusive to each other.  I was told a week ago that he was physically abusive in his previous marriage, too.  Now my kids are living with him, too.  I pay child support.  

Just understand.  You attract what you project.  I am co-dependent and avoidant.  Fear abandonment.  

My mates/ex-mates are absolute train wrecks compared to me.  It make me wonder if I am one, too.  (I don't think I am, but it's weird to ponder)

I know that my ex-gf has 3-5 bad days out of 7!  What a horrible way to live.  She doesn't know how to handle it.  She told me to "force her, cajole her" to work out with me.  Then she changed her mind.   My blood pressure was 95/62 at work today.  At work!  That is awful damn chill.  We all have our moments.   I am a rookie here, though.

Most of us can self-soothe in healthy ways.  Most folks with BPD self medicate or soothe in unhealthy ways.  Makes things worse.  I pity my ex-wife.  Truly want the best for her. I know that "the best" isn't going to be too good, though.  I left her with enough money to pay off the house and live for 15 years easily.  She will blow through it in 7-8 years.

Thisworld - I practice radical honesty. When we met she learned how open and honest I am about my relationships and that I simply tell everyone who and what I am. I don't believe in monogamy and I don't believe in lies. I don't believe in cheating and I wouldn't hurt a fly. She "loved" that in me and when she returned back to Europe she started breaking off from her lovers, and broke up with the ex. She presented herself as being changed and growing and wanting to be different. Then she went back to the ex and I gave her my blessing. Then she kicked him out after a week. Then she "couldn't wait" for me to move to her town , and then she stabbed me in the back... .I connected the dots only weeks after we broke up. I was in love and couldn't see thru the fog. I knew she was bad news but I kept repeating to myself "you don't choose who you fall in love with" not realizing that this love was very much manufactured.

She doesn't seduce men, she manipulates them. There is a difference. Then she hurts them on purpose. She could simply fall out of love with me, that's fine. She could have just break it off. But this is different, she helped me pick up the apartment on Airbnb one day, let me pay for it, then ten days later "be crazy in love" with someone after 4 days and cut me off like garbage. A person with 1% of decency would protect my feelings, not tell me about him, say that it's simply too much for them me moving there for them, etc... .But she shoved it up my face.

Now I need to face the fact that I've decided to go with it but it's "illegal" and would be difficult to orchestrate. If someone has an idea for a revenge, private message me.

Skip, thank you for your reply.

Re: we attract people with the same maturity level. People say lots of things. They also say "we don't choose who we fall in love with" and "love is all you need" and "love isn't enough " or "why walk when you can run? " but also "why run when you can walk?" and they all ring true to us on some level but wrong on another.

Yes, a devoutly Christian who would only have sex after marriage wouldn't go out with me, I attract wild adventurous women who are "crazy" like I am. But some people are "wild" because they push boundaries and are curious about life and want to take things up the edge. Others are wild because they're attention seeking, distorted and sick. I'm nothing like this woman. So no, we're not on the same level of maturity.

I'd never hurt a fly and I'm not reacting out of my reptilian brain. It's been NC 85 days. I wouldn't act impulsively and out of anger hurt her just because I'm a little child who got hurt. It's been many months and this is me being cold and logical. The put it behind you and grow is nonsense. What it advocates is "wait until you forget it enough not to care". Sure, I COULD do it but let's face it, it's not the mature thing to do, it's the weak / accepting victimhood thing to do. It doesn't sit right with me, it's not who I am. I don't care her life is, it needs to be from MY hands.

I just wish these private detectives wouldn't be such nerds and would take up on this.

...

*mod*

Thanks for removing the request for revenge ideas.

We're going to respectfully close this one at five pages (100+ reply in the two threads) with the OP having the last word.  :)