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I'm going on over a week now of no FaceTime with my partner until either I see from him, his lawyer, or on the county website he's filed for divorce. He tells me his lawyer tells him because of all the work he's done it should only take a couple of months for him to be able to file for divorce and move. That sounds like very optimistic news but I'm not celebrating until I see what I've asked for.

The board had been urging me to stop doing things like location sharing and calendar sharing. I had discussed that with some members. I stopped sharing my location after one extinction burst and he stopped sharing his calendars after another extinction burst which in turn allowed me to stop sharing mine without causing yet a third extinction burst, so now all is quiet on the western front.

I was actually able to give my relationship over to God the other day just like I gave myself over to God in my 7th step. I feel like my relationship has been cleansed of all that was wrong with it structurally, the location sharing and the calendar sharing being the last things to go.

If and when I see the divorce has been filed either from him, his lawyer or the county website then it will be time to start working on treating him better, to put it simply.

Hi unicorn2014




Letting go of the things we cannot control can feel scary, yet also be very liberating as it frees us to start working on the things we actually can control. The way you describe giving your relationship over to God, very much sounds like letting go of the things you cannot control, such as your partner's actions. Is this also how this feels to you?


Given all that's going on, taking it slowly before moving on with the relationship seems advisable. A great advantage of taking things slow is that it allows us to be more mindful of everything that's going on in our lives. This 'pause' gives you the opportunity to reflect on everything that has happened so far and continue your own personal journey of healing and growth.

Members have encouraged you to step back, dial back the intensity and involvement in each others lives, and stand strong to your moral values (and the boundaries needed to define them).

I don't think anyone is encouraging you to treat him bad until he proves he has filed for divorce. I know that I have warned you that this is a recipe for disaster.

As you describe things, and as he also see them, you are punishing him. Your are taking away thing he wants to send a message and manipulate him into action. You've tied your take away to he actions. You move the bar. You respond to his frustration by doing things that slap him back, more.  I assume if he get frustrated again, you will respond with something else.  Its a punitive parent routine. This is emotional abuse, Unicorn. You are showing him very little respect.

I understand that he lied to you. That's on him. It's bad. But it is not a reason or a pass to be abusive to him. We can back away from a relationship (which I think is the right thing for you) with integrity and compassion.

It really important that you shift the focus on to something that honors values and truth and openness and honesty. Right now, this is a relationship of deception (he) and manipulation (you). One a culture like this sets up, it is not reversible.

Kwamina , at the moment I let go of my relationship I was clear. I'm struggling with another resentment now, the situation that caused him to stop sharing his calendar in the first place.

I agree with you about taking it slow. He sent me a divorce schedule and that also stirred up bad feelings. I wonder why am I seeing this in January 2016 instead of July 2012 when he first told me he was getting divorced.

The time out is helping me feel my feelings as my partner shames me for them and demands forgiveness.

Skip I was making a joke about treating him better later. I have dry humor. I don't know how to indicate that online. I was able to apologize for being emotionally unpredictable and hurtful and toxic. He denies being evasive and ambivalent .

I was truly relieved he stopped sharing his calendar as that allowed me to stop sharing mine without an extinction burst.

I was encouraged to stop sharing location in line with a boundary.

My understanding of sharing locations and calendars is it has  become weaponized on his end. His turning off his calendar really hurt me because it was coupled with telling me he was leaving me because I was emotionally abusive.  I had to weather that by myself without support and it had serious consequences.

I found out on Thursday that he had further deceived me, not about his marriage, but about something else he had been doing which has made me lose faith in sharing calendars. He might have stopped sharing his out of shame. It has to do with the privacy/secrets dichotomy other members were talking about previously. I will try to write up the specific incident .

You can use an emoticon. 

To be honest, I'm not responding to just your comment here.  I'm responding to what you have been doing for the last few weeks.

Skip I admit and accept I have been emotionally abusive.

I am working on a new post defining a  value around not sharing calendar and location.

I suggest approaching this from the other side. Something like:

1. What relationship (friendship, ex, therapeutic separation, etc.) are you trying to achieve, and why should he and you want that __________. What does it include.

2. Then list what goes away.

3. Then discuss a mature and compassionate way to make it go away. (Hint, taking things away, one by one, in response to him trying to recover things is not mature and compassionate).

Get the focus on the good things.  Even if the good things are a once a week call and no other contact - make that call reliable and consistent and fun. No more punishment for disappointment.  *)

Skip, I will work on this. The calendar and location sharing have already been removed. So I will be starting from where things are now. FaceTime, calendar and location sharing have gone away. I think the value will need to be around phone contact. I am using the word value instead of the word boundary to take away the ultimatum component of boundary.

Hi again unicorn2014

Thanks for answering my question.


This is very positive that you are able to connect with your feelings :) What are you feeling exactly, can you put those feelings into words? You mention struggling with resentment, can you also identify other emotions you're experiencing since this time-out?


I am sorry this hurt you so. The way you describe it, I suspect this triggered some very intense emotions in you. Is that what you are referring to with the serious consequences? Or are you talking about something else?

Skip, can you elucidate the difference btwn "punishment for disappointment/taking things away he wants" and firm clear boundary enforcement?

I'm experiencing frustration that I am still a single parent after having been in a relationship for 3.75 years. I'm also experiencing a feeling of loss. When I met my partner I was much less mature then I am now, being exposed to the financial, legal, psychological, business,  and relational problems of an older, wealthier, more professionally experienced and more formally educated man had a serious effect on me.

This was discussed before and I am going to bring it up again.

I'm definitely feeling strong feelings of anger about this.

My partner's attitude when I first met him in the Spring of 2012 was that he was trying to protect me from his life which is why he didn't tell me he was married in the first place. He thought he was going to be able to unwind his marriage before I ever found out about it. He had dissolved his marriage once before in his 20s and he thought it was going to be just as easy this time but it turned out it was not. He had accumulated property, assets, a business.

I told him today that I wish that he had sent me the list of working on his divorce back in July 2012 when he told me he was first going to divorce his wife.

He response was trying to remind me that he was trying to protect me from all that. Back in July 2012 I was naive and I believed him. I was looking for a father figure and I had no idea the man I picked had traits of a Cluster B personalty disorder.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.





I'm talking about something else. I had blocked him on my phone and he sent me a series of emails where he was calling me abusive, telling me I had a disorder, telling me I needed to get help, telling me not to contact him again. I actually copied and pasted those into a note in preparation to post them here. I told him that was fine if he was going to leave me but I wanted to him to tell me that to my face on FaceTime instead of in email. He refused. I don't know who called who but we ended up getting in a big argument on the phone.

My d15 kept coming in the room and trying to stop the argument. After we hung up the phone we were still texting and she tried to stop me from texting, even though I was in the kitchen and was quiet as a church mouse. I was sick so she made me tea in an effort to get me to go to bed. She was trying to parent me even though I was trying to keep to myself in the kitchen. Then when I was in the shower she snuck out and didn't come back till the next evening. When I asked her if that argument was part of why she left she said yes there were "bad vibes". She had been acting out for 3 days prior: coming home at 2am on Tuesday after running off to go for a hike at 9pm, staying out till 8pm on Wednesday after I told her to come home right after school and lying to me about being at the school library when in reality she was in another city she was not allowed to go to, Thursday she had two boys walk her home from school and then she locked them in her room when I got home from the store which in resulted in me confiscating her laptop for the first time in her life. I had already taken away her phone and her iPod. So when I got in an argument with my partner it gave my d15 the perfect excuse to run away.

The unsolicited and unexpected email my partner sent to me on January 6 at 11:55pm. He titled it

What I am looking or from you


I replied the next morning at 8:24am


He replied at 9:20am


I replied at 11:28am


I was very sick and my daughter had stayed out till 2am the night before and Wednesday was the first day I could sleep in since Sunday.

He replied at 11:31am
I replied at 12:10pm
I didn't hear from him the rest of the day so I wrote to him again at 8:13pm


(I was not prepared to deal with the silent treatment as an outcome of me establishing a boundary.)

He replied at 9:26pm
Then at 9:59pm he stopped sharing the calendar he created for me, which I found out later meant nothing because he was still doing things he wasn't telling me about which I will discuss later.

That triggered a flood from me.

I was not prepared for my partner's extinction burst email. It totally caught me off guard and I had no help. So I responded reacted to it and sent my partner an email in response.

I titled it you left me 1/7 10:09pm


He responded at 10:23pm


I responded reacted at 10:23pm

This was actually my first reaction to my partner's extinction burst email sent on 1/7 at 10:08pm entitled

You have broken my heart


he responded on 1/7 at 10:26pm


I responded at 10:27pm


So this situation is going on meanwhile I have a d15 who's mad at me for enforcing my value of long term emotional and physical sobriety and who wants to go live with her drug abusing and dealing father and his family.

Things were chaotic.

My partner's extinction burst email really triggered me, as you will see I wrote him a third email. I was totally unprepared to deal with this on my own. I know people had told me that disordered threatened to leave the relationship as a way of getting their way, that they make threats that they are not serious about, but none of that mattered in the heat of the moment, especially with what was going on in tandem with my d15. Obviously I am still very naive about dealing with a  personality disordered partner even after 3 years. Remember the extinction burst that first brought me here was a suicide attempt on his part that I called in. I still haven't learned my lesson after all this time. Im just shaking my head as I've had so many years of recovery and therapy and yet I'm still so codependent. Its baffling.

I sent my partner at third email at 10:25pm on 1/7 entitled

Lets say goodbye properly on FaceTime please


he replied at 10:29pm


(That is why I get for looking for reparenting in the past  from a personality disordered partner. I had talked extensively with my 7 year therapist about this)

I replied to him at 11:56pm


Of course it really makes me mad when he tells me to get help. I've got 3 12 step programs, a sponsor, a business coach, DBT, a parental stress line, this board, and he's telling me to get help.

:) :) :) :) :) :)

Unicorn, I don't think he was intending to leave you when he sent the "this is what I need from you" email. I think he was saying how, from his perspective, YOU were threatening the r/ship whenever he does something you don't like. When you did not acknowledge the possible validity of some of that perspective, he may have felt like he was painted into a corner and had nowhere else to go except to say he was done, unless you "get help." By "get help," I presume he means, find support so you can be able to hear him and process what he needs.

I don't know that it matters but I would not call his email about "what I need" an extinction burst. It seemed a relatively responsible attempt to get you to hear how things look and feel to him.

Have you processed this with your therapist yet?

Patient and clear, I don't think that's what he means, but I will ask him. In a later email or text or message he said I had a disorder. I talked to him about that today. I told him if he thinks I have a disorder that is going to color how he sees everything about me.

I am currently working on getting a new individual  therapist to work with while I am doing DBT. I met with a DBT therapist   on Wednesday regarding this, which is ironic considering my partner sent me that email on Wednesday night.

Here's his "get help" email again.


Apparently he agrees that I am emotionally abusive.

I saw something on the leaving board about someone who had started emotionally abusing their emotional abuser. I am afraid that I might have started doing that too even though I haven't made the decision to detach  yet. My partner thinks I learned to be emotionally abusive from my  mother. I think I learned it from him as well as her.

Hey Unicorn,

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time 

All I can say again, is to try to get back to slowing down, not engaging in fights, and focusing on the big picture. This drama is distracting both of you from the core issue of him filing for divorce. If he doesn't file, you've decided you can't continue in the relationship--regardless of who has what disorder, who's abusing whom, etc.

I can see some truth in what he's saying. You have contributed (and are continuing to contribute) to the unhealthy dynamics in your relationship, which each of you perceives as emotional abuse. Can you go through his messages and think about where there might be truth? Do you think you could pause and think more about your role and how to change it, instead of continuing this back-and-forth?

If you aren't ready to work on that until after he's filed for divorce, then I think the kindest thing to do is to take a big step back. Either full NC after explaining it to him in a clear and respectful way, or extreme LC (like we talked about before, small talk, avoiding triggers, zero relationship talk).

I have already discussed this with him and admitted to him that I am emotionally abusive and that currently our biggest problems are his divorce and my emotional abuse. I am currently looking for a therapist. He is very happy I am taking this approach and I am very happy he is continuing to work on his divorce.

I will be sure to let the board know when I am either given a therapist by the DBT team or am able to locate one on my own.

I was able to discern that I get emotionally abusive when I feel trapped, whether by my mother, my ex, or my current partner and I was able to share this with him and he appreciated it. I told him his divorce created a toxic situation for me where I felt trapped. He understood what I was saying. Hopefully this will be resolved in a couple of months.

I have to say that reading UTBM and writing on the coping board is also really helping as I am sure this is triggering unresolved coping issues.

He actually said whatever help I am getting is really making a difference, so that is a testament to everyone here on the board!  |iiii

What's done is done. We cannot change the past and any of our past actions, but we can control what we do now in the present and how we move forward. There are various ways to read that initial e-mail you got from him. No matter how it's read, it is important to indeed respond and not react. You also realize this quite well based on your strike-outs of the word respond and replacing it with react. It's of course always easier in hindsight to say what we could have done better. Still, whenever you receive a (potentially) hostile e-mail/text it might help to keep the following in mind:


You can only control your own responses. If you feel he's making false accusations or trying to change the subject (from focusing on the divorce), the J.A.D.E. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0) technique can be very helpful, as in don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.

I know you are familiar with the B.I.F.F. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=133835.0) technique, I mention it here because this technique is specifically designed for handling hostile email/text communications. This technique talks about keeping your responses brief, informative, friendly (as in civil) and firm. An important part of this technique however is also to ask yourself if a response is needed at all:


I think keeping these quotes and techniques in mind can be very helpful for future interactions with your partner. Regardless of who is right or wrong, whether the initial email was intended to be hostile or not, these techniques can help break the cycle of conflict and open the door to more healthy and constructive ways of communicating with each other. Using these techniques to focus your attention and structure your communication, can also really help keep yourself more calm as you deal with all of this. These structured ways of communicating can also help us structure our own thinking.

What are your thoughts on the things I've said here?

Take care

... .and as we have talked, it is destroying the emotional fiber of the relationship.

It will help to untangle what you are doing wrong, vs what he is doing wrong, and clean up your side of the street. You keep justifying your "bad acts" on his "bad acts" and that only creates a toxic cycle.

1. His deceptiveness on the divorce was wrong.

2. His not wanting to get a divorce right now is his right and its OK.

3. Your "punitive parent" approach is wrong.

4. You not wanting to be in a relationship with a married man is your right and it is OK.

The only healthy solution is for you have firm values on zero tolerance on #1 and #3.

#2 and #4 needs to be respected by both parties. This is a problem to be solved or a reason to part ways.

90% of the effort between the two of you is focused on #1 and #3. Its toxic.

With respect to #2 and #4, I don't sense he wants to file for divorce, even now.  As others have said, there is probably some tax or financial problem he doesn't or can't resolve. Because the two of you are choose to manipulate each other, rather than communicate about your potentially irreconcilable differences, this just keeps eroding.

Intimacy is the ability to talk to each other in an open way. Neither of you do that. That's why this can't be solved. The next conflict will be more of the same unless you (both of you) change it. Neither of you want to submit to professional help to do this.

A member referred to this as a slow motion train wreck a week ago - this is what he was saying. There are two trains on the same track heading directly at each other... .


My impression, too.

Hi Kwamina, I agree with everything you said here, and seeing the late hour at which my partner wrote that horrible email, I don't think he was very rational. It was almost 3am where he was.

He and I are getting along fine now since I apologized for being emotionally abusive and told him I was getting help however I am very concerned about the violent language he is using, which is what I was reacting to. In later emails he described my values as including resentment and drama, meanwhile he prides himself on not feeling resentment, which he didn't say in that email but which he does say all the time out loud. Furthermore telling me I'm sick, need to get help, he said things like I introduced spiritual cancer into the relationship, that's all violent, confrontational, hostile language. It makes think that if I have to use the BIFF response with my partner that perhaps he is not a good partner for me.

I will review the lessons on J.A.D.E. and B.I.F.F... I am quite sure that I am being driven by being the all bad child in my FOO, meaning to say that's why when he hurls his false accusations at me they stick to me like glue. I am confident that if I continue to work on my FOO issues, especially this all bad child false projection my FOO put on me I will be less reactive to my partner's hostile emails and eventually I may no longer want to be in a relationship with a hostile person. One can only hope.

I think the biggest thing I have to be careful of is not picking up his hostile language and throwing it back at him, but recognizing it for what it is and not correcting him but not responding to it either. One of the fights we used to get in is he was saying I was getting  hung up on protocol. I need a lot of help to not react or even respond to his nasty language and because my father used nasty language, I am attuned to it and react to it.

I'm not very confident that I can respond differently to him because I am hard wired to respond to hostile language because of my FOO which is why I think the only way to solve these problems is to do more FOO work.

I am thinking that a healthy and undamaged person would take one look at those hostile emails, hit delete, and move on with their night and not think about them again.

He sent me a bullet point list of action steps he is taking next week to move the divorce forward.


I was seeing a temporary therapist in September and October when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed.

I was in DBT in the fall and we just started again last week.

I am currently trying to obtain an individual therapist.

My partner does not think he has a problem with intimacy, he thinks the problem is all me. He thinks I am verbally abusive. He blames me for his inability to be open. I've had enough of that.

Part of the conflict I had with him as I found out he had been talking to the psychiatrist I referred him to over the phone for at least 2 months. That is part of the reason why I said an extinction burst had an unexpected positive outcome, because I found out that my level of disclosure and his level of disclosure in regards to our calendars was not in sync. So the positive outcome is when he stopped sharing his calendar with me as act of leaving me it allowed me to stopped sharing my calendars with him.

I have tried to communicate with him that the reason that location sharing is not a good idea is because it has become a weapon but he denies this.

That is what this post was about, about how his extinction burst email which he wrote at 3am allowed me to turn off my calendars without getting his attention and having another outburst on his part.

My former ACA sponsor and members of this board felt that calendar and location sharing was bad boundaries between his business and my business and that is what I was trying to address with this post.

Unicorn, hello. You are working so hard--just wanted to acknowledge that this is a lot of thinking and self-scrutiny on your part.

For what it's worth--I do not perceive these particular msgs from your partner as being hostile. They remind me of things I've said or wished I had been brave enough to say to my ex. I think he is being open with you about what he erceives to be going on that threatens what's good in your relationship. If you were in fact to delete and ignore them, I think you'd be missed out on valuable information about what it feels to be him.

Hi p&c I understand that you do not think that his email to me was an extinction burst.

He sent to me at 2:55am EST.

He was not in his wise mind at 3am.

The reason I referred to his email as an extinction burst is it is a reaction to me upholding my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

As a result he is trying to find some kind of boundary to set with me so now he's decided I'm verbally abusive, has talked to a  therapist about it, read about it, and thinks that he has equal cause to set a boundary. Its retaliatory. He doesn't see a therapist in person unless he has a problem with me and then its only to talk about how to deal with me. He doesn't think he has any problems separate from me that would warrant seeing a therapist in person.


He is retaliating against my value by trying to define one of his own.

In fact in his mind he has now made me out to be abusive which then allows him to set boundaries. I asked him to provide me with the material he is reading which is dictating how he is treating me and he said that would have to wait.

He is focusing on my behavior rather then recognizing the damaging consequences his deception murkiness has on the relationship.

I have to be the strong one and uphold my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

I could say the trouble I'm having with my partner today is because I am still allowing myself to have an (emotionally) intimate relationship with a married man.

I have heard a lot of talk from him about the timeline he is now on with his divorce attorney and the things he and his divorce attorney have talked about but as I have recently learned from the absence of information on the calendar he used to share with me that talk means nothing.

I could practice radical acceptance around the fact that my partner is deceptive, murky .

My partner denies he is deceptive but has admitted from the very start that he is murky and in fact told me he knew if he wanted to be with me he could not be murky. Well, he hasn't done a very good job of not being murky. In fact I caught him in even more murkiness just last week, and of course he blamed his inability to be intimate on me. I told him that does not work for me.

The positive outcome is that I was able to stop sharing my calendars with him without drawing his attention but today we are dealing with a different problem.

--------

I think the most difficult thing I have to accept right now is I can not rely on him for help with my d15 because he thinks of and treats me like I am an abusive person. That will not be helpful to me when I am going through a crisis with my d15.

I thought that while I was waiting for him to file that I could continue to "co-parent" with him.

Now I see that I was wrong.

Others on the board had cautioned me against this .

I now see that is a mistake for me to turn to my partner in times of crisis with my d15.

By doing so I expose my vulnerable emotions to him which is a unwise  thing to do.

(As an adult child of disordered family of origin  I am really trying to work on making my language more gentle.)

I think his e-mail made several valid points. But, I know you aren't ready to be working on that right now. I also think you're right that he's using this to deflect attention from himself and the divorce.

You are both so hurting and raw right now that almost any contact (including contact that an outsider would interpret as positive, productive, or at least innocuous) is causing a world of pain to you both. Do you see that dynamic? What do you think you can do to break the cycle?

Noo. Not that again!

Please don't get involved with that. That is the start of the same toxic cycle. You know it too well. You don't want to ask him if he took those steps, and hear him deny, evade, or lie to you. You know how painful that is. The only waybtobprotect yourself from that is to not ask and not get involved. I'd suggest asking him not to share progress reports before filing with the courts with you!

Can you work out what relationship you want with him while he is married to somebody else and do that. As skip suggested a ways back.

Stay there until he is actually divorced (or at least filed with the courts!)

I am thinking that I not interact with him until I am able to bring that email to a therapist. I will be calling my health plan in the morning to try and get a therapist.

I'm perfectly happy to be working on what he told me in that email. My position is if he finds me abusive and needs to get help to stay in an abusive relationship then I need to go no contact until I talk to a therapist about this.

I think that email was a ruse.

It was written at 3am.

He was trying to get something to bargain with and apparently he did.

I need to point out to the board that out of one side of his mouth he's calling me abusive, sick, telling me I need to get help, telling me not to contact him, telling me he's blocking me (he said those things today) and on the other side of his mouth he's telling he loves me, he needs to get divorced so he can move out here to help me with my daughter, he cares about my me. He just texted me to ask me if I'm going to my meeting.

I am sorry, but if I thought someone was abusing me, texting them would be the last thing I would be doing.

I am trying GK.

I thought I could talk to him about parenting stuff but today I found out that was not a good idea as parenting stuff brings up challenging  emotions in me and makes me vulnerable to him. I think I just experienced some triangulation and drama triangle stuff with him today.

Btw I did not ask him for a progress report. And as I shared the whole point of this post was to share with the board that I am no longer sharing locations and calendars. He is trying to bring it back but I am not giving in.

As I stated previously I'm thinking that maybe I don't contact him again until I've had a chance to show his letter to a therapist.

I should also state today he asked me if we could watch Star Trek together on Friday, and then I think he also offered to stay with me on the phone while I look for my daughter. (She went missing again today, but is home now).

So as I stated previously with one hand he is telling me I'm sick, I need help, I'm abusive and with the other hand he is telling me he wants to FaceTime me, share calendars, share locations, tells me he loves me, tells me he wants to get divorced so he can move out here to help me with my daughter.

Its crazy making.

However since some members of the board think he "What I am looking or from you" 2:55am email is legitimate, I have printed it out to take to my next therapist.

------

Today in the middle of a crisis with my d15 (she went missing again and is home now) he's telling me I'm sick and I need help. I'm sorry but that doesn't work for me. I don't need that kind of drama.

He wants me to call him in a crisis but then when he can't handle me he drops me like a hot potato and tells me there's something wrong with me.

-----

I think I  need to create  a way to tell him that I think it would be better that I not contact him again until I am able to discuss his "What I am looking or from you" email with a therapist because of what happened today.

------

I also printed out the message where it was suggested I define what relationship I am trying to achieve (friendship, ex, therapeutic separation).

I was trying to coparent with him but today when I called him to tell him about two issues going on with my d15 he made a reference to something one of  his T told him the last time he got verbally abusive with me and that triggered me and I hung up on him. I realized I could not work closely with him when I was feeling triggered by my d15 behavior because he inevitably he was going to say something that was going to trigger me as well.

------

I think what this is pointing out to me is that I can not coparent with him at this point. I thought I could but I think I was wrong. And to be frank I don't know that I could ever coparent or would want to coparent with somebody who thought I was sick, abusive, valued drama and resentment, introduced spiritual cancer into the relationship. That's not really someone I want to rely on to help me make decisions in a crisis.

----

So the challenge is going to be how do I communicate that to him? So if I am following those principles of defining the relationship, I think coparenting with him at this point is too risky considering the kinds of things he's been saying to me.

Can you slow down and look at the dynamics of the relationship as a whole, rather than the issue of the day? It'll be hard for a therapist in one session to get an accurate idea of what's going on and where that e-mail was coming from. Your going NC until a therapy session, again, has an air of punishing him for the e-mail rather than appropriate boundary enforcement. I think it's very possible that you are not in a place emotionally to talk with him without feeding more conflict and toxicity--but that doesn't sound like what you're saying.

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of it as you emotionally abusing him, so much as you contributing to the conflict that is very hurtful to you both, or contributing to the unhealthy dynamic that you both are experiencing as emotional abuse. Does that make sense?

Many members have observed that you have been acting in a way that is confusing and hurtful to him, and contributing to a very high daily level of conflict that hurts you both and erodes at your relationship. That can be true at the same time as him emotionally abusing you, or him showing BPD behaviors (or just generally obnoxious behaviors) that are very hurtful to you.

I firmly believe that my ex emotionally abused me and I did not emotionally abuse her. However I did respond to her abuse and neglect in ways that were painful to her and not beneficial to our relationship. It wasn't emotionally abusive for me to want a hug when I'm upset, but if I see that she's shut down and isn't capable of giving me a hug, and I cry and beg instead of just giving her space to pull herself together, that's a high-conflict reaction, doesn't get either of us what we want, and is intensely upsetting and frustrating to her. It goes back to radical acceptance and realistic expectations.

In your relationship, it is absolutely not emotionally abusive to not want to be in a relationship with a married man. It's even fine to resent the deception/murkiness so much that you're unable to carry on a relationship-as-usual with him without the resentment seeping out (like we talked about before with all the picking on little things). But the kind thing to do in response is to back away from the relationship until the tension has been resolved (either by him filing/getting divorced, or by you working on radical acceptance). Not to keep picking daily fights or, as Skip mentioned, taking the punitive-parent role with respect to his divorce.

Actually that is what I am saying. Today my partner brought up something my former therapist said to him when he called him after he verbally abused me and that triggered me. He was relating it to something another father said to me that his daughter said to him about my daughter. I told my partner that was not a good thing to bring up.

This was from an email he wrote to me at 1:59pm PST today


Can my partner really be that immature to think that bringing up the advice his/my former therapist gave him after verbally abusing me wasn't going to trigger me? That was the time he got so bad that I thought about filing a restraining order against him.


I also forgot to mention that the first time my partner called me emotionally abusive was when I hung up on him after he told me he had been calling my former psychiatrist for 2 months without telling me. I was very hurt because I had been very open with him about my mental health care. My partner tried to blame me and say I was unapproachable and that's why he didn't tell me. That is why I turned off calendar sharing and am not accepting his invitations. I have realized he only shows me what he wants me to see and it gives me a false sense of security. I am not interested.



Or he could just be blaming me for his inability to be intimate.




I hear what you are saying and I would like to point out to you what my partner wrote to me in an email today at 1:59pm.


He is flat out denying being deceptive.

I also don't know if you noticed  the times where my partner accused me of being resentful.

He wrote this to me on 1/6/2016 at 11:55pm PST


He wrote this to me on 1/7/2016 at 9:26pm PST


Do you see how he is judging me? He is accusing me of having the "spiritual cancer of resentment". That is violent language. He claims he does not have resentments. I think he is deluded.

How am I supposed to respond to those statements without seeming like I'm contributing to the conflict?

So its 11:36pm and I'm getting ready to go to sleep and I see these messages come in from my partner on Messenger. (That means its 2:36am where he is)


If that's somehow supposed to comfort me or reassure me it doesn't.

I never thought he was cheating on me.

I don't understand why he has to say things like that.

He knows I have a zero tolerance policy on infidelity.

I want to tell him it makes me nervous when he starts sending messages like that to me at 2:39am in the morning.

I'm not going to respond right now.

Hopefully someone on the board will have responded by the time I wake up.

I would really like to ask him why he is sending me these (unsolicited) messages of reassurance, as they are actually having the opposite effect.

Something I haven't mentioned yet: my partner told me the first time he was married to his wife he did cheat on her, both physically and emotionally, with two different affair partners. In fact his wife told me he carried the emotional affair over into his second marriage. He also told me that he told his wife when he was going to see his physical affair partner. I would have never ever tolerated that kind of behavior.  This was a long time ago, but it seems to me that he is reacting to his old behavior. He actually remarried his wife after dissolving the marriage because he felt guilty for how he treated her during their first marriage.

I have no history of infidelity with my former spouse. I don't think the way my partner does.

Is there a way I can either gently ask my partner why he is sending me those messages or gently tell him not to send them to me? They are not comforting to me, in fact they make me very uncomfortable.

-----------------

Update: more messages have come in since writing this. The last one is definitely provoking me. I do hope someone responds by the time I wake up. I need help. I am calling my health plan in the morning to ask about a therapist.


That looks like an extinction burst to me.

I was very clear with him that we would resume FaceTime once I saw from him, his lawyer, or the county website that he had filed for divorce.

Also I can I tell the board I do not share his feeling. I do not miss him and it is not tearing me apart. Except for his first trip out here in September 2012 he has stayed with me each and every time. From September 2012 to September 2015 I thought his divorce had been filed which is why I allowed him to stay with me. He maintains he didn't deceive me as I shared from his email from earlier today:

Yesterday at 2pm
He is continuing to message me as I am modifying my post.



Reading those message makes me feel like I have fleas crawling all over me.

I don't want to get bitten by those fleas.

Furthermore the reason he called me emotionally abusive the first time this month is because I hung up on him when I found out he had been calling my former psychiatrist for at least 8 weeks without telling me and I have been fully disclosing my mental health care to him. I felt betrayed. I no longer feel like sharing calendars works for me because I no longer think they mean anything.

Additionally he told me the reason he was talking to this psychiatrist is that this psychiatrist told he didn't think he mattered to himself  and my partner is convinced that is his problem.

By not responding to them at all. You do not have to defend yourself against false accusations or projections stemming from distorted thinking patterns. By not responding or not getting provoked you are actually also sending a very clear and powerful message. I would advise to ignore invalid statements and to only respond to valid statements from him.



I think what you say here is very important. A lot of this indeed also has to do with values, your boundaries for what is acceptable or not considering those values and the actions you take to defend your boundaries.

What you point out here indicates that a part of your own internal emotional struggle stems from the fact that you in some ways are going against your own values. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

Good Morning Unicorn,

I'll assume you've had very little sleep in light of last night's text messages.

Firstly, it is important to get good quality sleep ... you know that. I have received these types of late night texts too and, as much as it was difficult to do, I put my phone on silent and resolved not to look at it prior to going to bed. Most people respect other peoples time and do not text, or communicate, in the late hours of the evening/night unless it is a dire emergency. So, anything coming through at these times is likely to be from the ratbag.

Reading through the initial texts, your ratbag appears to be behaving in a way that has been triggered by feelings of loss ... loss of whatever you provided. He sounds like he is putting his heart on the line (and he probably feels he is ... despite the fact he is a ratbag and behaves appallingly towards you). If you answer them in a negative way ... he gets to confirm his victim status and that you are the root of his misery. So, just think about whether you want him in your life, ever again, before responding. Personally, I'd resolve to remain completely silent and not answer but you have to follow what feels right to you.

Secondly, he is not interested in trying to offer you some comfort ... he is trying to make himself feel better in the moment and in the moments he was sending you texts. It isn't easy to garner attention at 2.39am because most people are asleep ... and you, it seems, are high on his list for potential supply. I think your decision not to respond is a strong one. However, you do write, 'right now' ... which is worrying because it implies that you might consider replying later should you succumb to any thoughts and feelings of responsibility, obligation or guilt. Clinically speaking ... he has got himself in this mess, he is an adult, and it is his responsibility to find a solution ... your responsibility is to yourself.

Thirdly, you are assuming he is sending these texts to 'reassure' you ... .why are you assuming this?

Fourthly, he has given you information about his previous marriage in which he cheated twice (what evidence do you have that this is true ... and only twice? ... Ratbags lie. When he told you this ... can you remember how you felt about it? You also learned that he was cheating in his second marriage (little Johnny gets to do what he likes doesn't he?). Fidelity sounds like it is a 'must' for you ... so why stay involved with someone who, quite obviously, doesn't share your values?

Fifthly, I wouldn't consider it an extinction burst ... moreso, more of the same 'woe is me ... have pity on me ... look! I'm being torn apart (... poor thing, there there ... mummy put a plaster on it!).

If you don't share his feelings (how do you really know what they are, anyway?) then get rid and don't look back ... he'll find someone else to wipe his bottom for him.

My ears prick up when I hear people say 'I never ... ' and 'I have never ... ' or, 'Not ever ... ' especially if they've not been accused of doing whatever it is that they are saying they have 'never' done.

Evasive and deceptive behaviour is felt ... trust it. Ambiguity and vagueness in language is both evasive and can be deceptive too.

"I have been very upfront with you about my intentions with you and for us" ... .(I have told you I have cheated before... upfront ... so I havent' been evasive or deceptive) ... "... and the actions I need to take or do to make that happen" ... ( I will take any action needed to carry on in this manner).

I'm not surprised you feel like you have fleas ... it's because you do ... so you need some flea powder.

Again, if you respond to his texts in a negative manner ... he will get to be the victim again and get to call you abusive for being so mean ... (hanging up on me ... you big meanie you!).

Don't believe a word ... his psychiatrist is bound by confidentially. So, whatever he tells you about what his psychiatrist has said ... you cannot verify ... so he can tell you whatever he wants ... and by telling you that his psychiatrist says that the clients problem is rooted in self worth ... will have you reaching for the tissues an trigger your saviour behaviour.

The psychiatrist may very well be right ... and your SO may even be telling the truth in this instance ... but it is up to him, alone, to develop self-worth. Hahaha, he might find that he could gain a little self-worth if he stopped being such a ratbag... !

I hope you have a better day today ... look after yourself (because he is incapable of it).

Bless you.

Unicorn, I'd say an expectation that he tell you about his psych appts is overly enmeshed and not a reasonable expectation unless he chooses to tell you--even if you were married. The fact that it's someone you referred him to does not change that--that person becomes his psychiatrist if he starts working with that person. These are the most private sensitive relationships. We may or may not share the fact that we're seeing mental health professionals with our partner at the outset or at all. I don't see him violating any healthy expectations on this point.

I see it differently. It's true that he has been deceptive and his inability to validate that for you is undoubtedly salt in the wound. But that is also a known longstanding issue in this r/ship and my understanding is that you are taking time to reflect on what that means for you going forward, meanwhile trying not to shred what is good between you in a series of reactions to your bad feelings about this.

Beyond that, so far as I can tell, the guy misses what you were doing before the issue of the divorce changed your pattern. That's a pretty straightforward sentiment and is understandable. It could move him down the road to rectify the divorce situation--it is not a bad sentiment.

If hearing from him that he misses you is intolerable, I think you need an actual break from this r/ship, explained in a kind fashion as you did before--to ensure he is not on the receiving end of toxic resentment from you. He is right, your (legitimate) resentment is coloring your response to everything he does, even innocuous, appropriate comments.

I think Skip is right that there will be no r/ship if you don't protect it from this impulse to chip away and attack him. If I were him there is NO WAY I could anticipate some of your expectations (e.g., that he not reference something he learned from your shared therapist re your daughter because he heard this thing after you were triggered by him being abusive). I identify with his bewildered message about that--not sure how he is supposed to know that would be offensive to you. FWIW it would not be offensive to me if my exH who went through batterer's treatment dug up something he heard in that class and offered it to me as an insight that might bear on my current situation. I'd appreciate that he listened in class and could apply the concepts in our lives going forward.

I don't know why he's assuring you he isn't cheating. I agree he has cheated in the past. You are doing things now that will break your r/ship down one way or another, either because he cheats (not clear that you are in a committed r/ship according to you at this point, so not sure what that means), or he gives up, or he becomes a quivering pile of confused jello.

You've known he cheated in the past, including with you, for a long time. If your value is you won't be with someone who has cheated, so be it, but you crossed that decision point a long time ago with him. You CAN change your mind, but if that's a possibility, again, I urge you to take some genuine time off from your daily interactions with him to use your DBT skills to assess what you want and will be able to live with once you determine your course from here on.

I think Patient has a really good point about how you can change your mind when different conditions present or are made.

Reading the stuff he sends you... .boy my anxiety levels rise and i get mad at him  lol and I am not the person trying to cope. Point is, he is really working on you, has been doing so for ages, and this upset is saturating your life.

Your child is in crisis atm, and you are wearing out. I really want to encourage you to detach as much as you can right now.

I would personally ignore those texts. He's being a real pill and needs to get a grip on things.

This is possibly an issue of transferrence on his part.  There is not much you can do about his issues though, they are his to deal with.

Kwamina's advice is invaluable:


When my partner and I were having ongoing conflicts, MC advised me to stop engaging, clean up my part of the conflict.  It was the only way MC had to get exBF to look at HIS behavior.  As long as I engaged in conflict, as long as I reacted/responded/contributed in any way... .I was effectively providing exBF a distraction from looking at himself to work on.  As long as I did anything to be pointed at to say, "See, Sunflower is the 'bad' one" then MC could not assist exBF to do his own work... .instead he could externalize his issues onto me.

You seem to be very aware of your feelings... .  noticing your feelings and honoring the feelings you have of needing to back away ahead of time... .  Helps prevent yourself from reacting vs coming from a place of wise mind.  I wonder what self care you need to do for yourself to help prevent your desires to respond when you believe you may be reacting... .so that you are caring for your emotional needs ahead of time, before engaging?

Ok, I printed out your reply and will think on it.

This morning when I woke up I had a invitation to join his calendar in my inbox.

I do not want to share calendars again because recently he told me he had been talking to a psychiatrist over the phone for at least 8 weeks and that was not on his calendar. All my nurse practitioner appointments were on my medical calendar that I shared with him. I felt betrayed that he was not sharing with me what I was sharing with him and decided that sharing calendars was not a good idea anymore.





My partner told me that his divorce attorney told him he wasn't really  married. I know his wife moved out in July 2012. I think I don't so much have a problem with the fact that he is legally divorced but physically separated as I do with the fact he was murky/deceptive/evasive and the fact that he is a high conflict person/person with personality disorder traits. I feel like our relationship is like being pulled into quicksand and if it wasn't for this board, I wouldn't know what to do.

When I worked with both my 7 year and my 1 year therapist I would show them my partner's text and emails.

I think because of my father being narcissistic I am very vulnerable to my partner's disorder. I am hard wired to respond/react to his emails/texts. My strongest feeling about this relationship is that I need to continue to read books like Understanding the Borderline Mother, working my ACA program, and moving forward in my own personal recovery.

Good Morning Caley,

I take a medication prescribed by a doctor to help me sleep, so I slept fine.


I put my phone in airplane mode when I sleep because I use an app called Sleep Cycle and I don't want the cell phone waves coming up through my pillow into my brain. My phone is automatically set to go into do not disturb mode at 9pm every night. My partner knows this. He wasn't expecting me them to read them at that hour of the night. Its actually good that I was able to type up that message to the board before going to bed because you and others have provided me with very helpful advice. I have not responded to those messages or acknowledged them. My partner and I had a different text exchange this morning.

He wrote at 12:05am which I did not respond to or read until this morning
Then later at a decent hour
To which I responded



I did not respond to those messages on Messenger.


I wasn't sure what I should do about those messages which is why I posted them here as they alarmed me. I have not responded to them nor mentioned I even saw them or read them.


Because he is writing them as if I am worried that he is cheating on me and I am not.


He was married to the same woman twice, that is who he is divorcing now, and she confirmed for me that he had an emotional affair partner in their first marriage which he carried over into their second marriage. I have no confirmation on the physical affair partner, just his horrific stories he told me in the beginning of his relationship. Yes unicorn's partner has been able to do what he wanted, which is why I pointed out to him that he too had traits of narcissism, but he refuses to believe that, despite what my former/his current therapist had said about that. My partner's wife has let him get away with a lot of bad behavior including living in a foreign country without her for a couple of years. I would never ever tolerate that kind of behavior in my marriage.


That is interesting you said that because he wrote me an email yesterday about me not being a punitive parent.



Exactly my point which is why I brought those messages here, they made me nervous.


Actually I did not know he was being deceptive and evasive until I came here. I was fully naive with him and fully trusting with him. He was some kind of father figure to me (he is 16 years older) and it took a lot of help from the board to get to me recognize he was being deceptive. At first I couldn't even admit it to myself. And like I said he still denies being deceptive and evasive, as you saw.


What he is talking about here is his intention to marry me. It was his intention to marry me from the very beginning, so that is what he is referring to. He maintains that he wasn't being deceptive or evasive about his divorce.


I did not respond to his texts. He denies I am in the persecutor role as well, he says he doesn't feel persecuted. He thinks he has to believe something for it to be true (his deception/evasion, my punitive parent/persecutor role)


Yes he has done this before, he loves to tell me what his therapist or psychiatrist says and it drives me nuts. I'm really not interested in what his therapist or psychiatrist said, but if I say that, he'll accuse me of not caring about him.


In this case he was referring to not valuing his own musical gifts and talents and not identifying with them.


It is funny you say that because he always tells me he wants to take care of me, but his behavior from far away has shown he can't. Thank you for your response. I certainly don't feel good about my relationship right now.

Yes patient and clear, I agree with you, however in this case it has do to with shared calendar expectations and the fact I was putting my medical appointments on mine and he was not putting his medical appointments on his. Furthermore he likes to make a big show of telling me that he only calls a therapist when he has something to talk about, that he uses a therapist to solve problems only, that he is going to call my former therapist/his current therapist to help him with my d15 and ex, etc. I'm all for not sharing personal health care information. That is not the point. The point is we did not have an equal level of disclosure, and that is why I feel hurt.

Then how do you suggest I tell him this? I do appreciate being able to talk to him, however the price of doing that is too expensive for me now.


Because what he was saying was blaming me for his verbal abuse. Basically he was saying he verbally abused me because either he misunderstood something or said or probably more likely I was "putting stuff on him" (one of his favorite things to say) therefore that's why he got verbally abusive. Its blame shifting on his part.


We are in a committed relationship. He has never cheated on me.


He has not cheated on me. I don't consider his marriage to be cheating on me as he was never in love with his wife and I believe him. His wife was like a beard to him (a straight woman for a gay man), she allowed him to do his own thing without being bothered by other women. He's very introverted and was very work oriented in his marriage.

I wish there was some way I could tell him that his messages reassuring me he was faithful to me weren't reassuring at all, in fact they were having the opposite effect. If I thought he was cheating on me, I would leave. Maybe he thinks I think he's cheating on me with his wife and that's why he's saying that. I actually don't have a problem with the fact that he's married per se, its the fact that he proposed marriage to me while still married to his wife. I understand that people are physically separated but legally married for all kinds of reason: health insurance, church won't grant them an annulment, etc. If he had never proposed marriage to me we wouldn't be in this boat in the first place. Now if he was living with his wife, sure I would have a problem with that and it would be unacceptable to me, but he's not, and he hasn't since July 2012.

Thank you Daniell85, I have not responded to those messages.

The ironic thing is he did text my d15 this morning and she was in a better mood.

I wonder if there is a grain of truth that my taking a time out from facetime and my taking a step back did destabilize the family.

Yet that is the point of attack last night, that he only feels valued by me for what he can contribute to my d15.

A long time ago a man who was interested in dating me, old enough to be my father, older then my current partner, told me there are 3 phases in one's love life. The lust years, when you are in your 20s and before you have kids, the child rearing years, which I am in now, and the companionship years, after you raise your kids.

I have made it clear to my partner no matter what relationship I was in, my d15 was my first priority.

Prior to my coming to BPD family, my partner would attack me for making my d15 my first priority. In fact my longest therapist said that my partner was jealous of my d15. I've read about this phenomenon in Understanding the Borderline Mother.

The reason why my issues are so complicated is I have disordered parents, so my partner is feeding into a whole web of dysfunction.

My d15 genuinely likes my partner, as does my mother. In fact the other night my mother texted me and asked me if my partner had seen a recent sports event.

I do not know right now Sunflower, I wish there was a way I could tell my partner that his emotional demands are wearing me out. My partner's father even told me that my partner needed a lot of love. My partner knows he is difficult and needs a lot.

I wish I could be honest with my partner and tell him how I feel when he sends me messages like the ones he sent me last night.

I really feel like my partner is treating me like a supply like another poster said.

My partner vehemently denies being narcissistic, in fact he likes to take online tests to prove to me that he is not narcissistic, but who else uses another person as a supply?

I'm worn out and frustrated that I can't be honest with my partner without him going ballistic.

That is the point of boundaries.  (They do not need to be communicated to him)

It is your job to take care of your needs.  It is your job to ensure you do not allow yourself to get worn out.

This is important!

Then it sounds like I need to define a value/boundary for myself around the emotional demands he is placing on me and I do not know how to do that. He is looking for reassurance and security and supplication from me around the clock. I don't have that kind of energy to give to him. I need him to learn how to self soothe without my help and without attacking me for not being there for him.

It is true what another poster said, my d15 is in crisis right now and the last thing I need is my partner pushing my buttons, yanking my chain, getting a reaction/ rise out of me... .

I feel like it must be a natural desire to want to lean on our partners especially in times of crisis.  It feels natural to want to reach out to those close to us when we feel hurt or vulnerable... .yet many persons are unable to be emotionally available for our needs.  This is pretty crummy!

I am not so good as many with the boundary setting stuff.  However, rather than starting with HIS behavior(placing emotional demands), why not start with your own needs? 

It sounds like you may be expressing that your concerns with d15 are a priority right now over actions you may (or may not) want to take in assisting your SO to soothe.  (Idk, I'm guessing here and just going with that to finish my example... .which hopefully you can change to suit you)

Maybe a boundary can be to block off time to attend to matters with d15 without interruption?  Idk, you may know better how you are dividing your actions... .to see where you can adjust things. 

If you do decide to switch gears from giving him attention to tend to something d15 related... .

Maybe a kind way to state this:

I wish I had energy to discuss this further with you.  Quite honestly, I am feeling drained from giving so much attention to several important matters.  I realize you may expect me to be there for you right now, and I honestly wish I had it in me to be.  However, I need to switch gears so that I can focus on my issues with d15 as she needs me right now. I'm going to go spend some time alone preparing my thoughts to speak with her later.  Let's chat a bit later.

Hi Sunflower, my d15 is at school right now and I'm just tired and worn out in general. I got another email from my partner.

Keep in mind yesterday he told me I was abusive and needed to get help.


He has sent me opposing messages in less then 24 hours, but if I were to point this out to him he would attack me.

I'm really at a loss for what to do here. I'm no longer moved by his outpouring of love because of how he treats me when I am triggered.

I don't share his feelings. I feel like I could bond with someone else.

I do not have the energy to respond to his email.

I am currently trying to secure a new therapist for myself.

I am preparing to talk to the high school guidance counselor and deal with what is going on with my d15.

I don't share the same magical feelings my partner has.

You are probably right, trust your instincts. No need to point this out to him.


I certainly would prefer my partner and I have mutual understanding of things, especially in regards to our r/s.  However, that is simply not going to be the case always... .and less likely with a pwPD. 

I don't hear anything that you need to do.  He can have his reality and perspective.  You can have yours. 

He is likely not going to be a reliable person to turn to when you are feeling triggered.  Is this the case?

From my readings over on the staying board... .pwPD do not do well when their partners are ill, stressed, or otherwise needing of support.  They tend to do poorly.  Unfortunately, Many non's typically need to find other ways to get many needs met which are independent of their partner.


Again, sounds like a difference of perspectives, that is ok, you both are entitled to your own perspectives.



Sounds like you are clear that responding is not best for you.  Do what you feel you need to to take care of yourself... .no apologies needed. Honor, respect, care for these feelings of lack of energy and your own perspective.  (On your own... .as that is reliable) It may be loving to explain to him that you are exhausted and going to rest and put your attention to matters going on in your home for now... .and will check in with him_____(some later time)___.

What happened yesterday is that he referenced something that one of my former therapist/one of his current therapists said to him when he called him for help with verbally abusing me. Of course that triggered me. It has been suggested to me that I write an email to my partner to clarify my feelings. I think I could work on that one issue, of why I was triggered yesterday. He was using advice his therapist gave him to help me with my d15. It didn't work for me. I hung up on him.

I also hung up on him when he revealed to me that he had been working with one of my former psychiatrists for 8 weeks over the phone without telling me. When I asked him why he didn't tell me he said it was because I wasn't approachable. This bothers me on at least two levels. One, we were sharing calendars and I took it on good faith that his was accurate. Two, he spent at least $2K on this psychiatrist and yet he told me he could not afford to pay for a therapist to oversee a therapeutic separation. If we were married I would be very upset if he spent $2K without telling me.

If the board thought it was a good idea I could write an email to him stating why I got upset yesterday and the previous day when I hung up on him when he revealed to me that he had been talking to a psychiatrist for 8 weeks and not telling me.


Yes I hear you and I have a parental stress line to talk to. The ironic thing is my partner gets offended when I turn to the parental stress line instead of him but I think they are going to have to be my first line of defense every time my d15 gets in trouble. I had done a good job of calling them on Saturday but because I wasn't expecting my d15 to get in trouble on Sunday too I was caught off guard and turned to my partner first. That is one thing I can change today. The parental stress line is open 24 hours a day.



I have a rule for myself that I would allow half the relationship time to recover before I got into a new one, and since we've been in a relationship for 3.75 years that would be at least 1.5 years recovery time. So what I am saying is I could leave this relationship, recover, and have another one. I don't feel like I've bonded with him like a duck (they are monogamous and pair bond for life).





Yes, I was able to do that without responding to those messages or emails so I feel like I am standing on solid ground for the moment.

I think what another member suggested a few days ago about defining what kind of relationship I am trying to achieve and why should he and I want that and what it includes and then listing what goes away and then discussing that in a mature and compassionate manner was good advice.

I don't think I'm trying to achieve a different kind of relationship. I think what I was/am trying to do is reduce the amount of contact I have with my partner until I see him from him, his attorney or the court that he has filed for divorce.

If the board thinks its prudent I can write him an email stating why I hung up on him yesterday and the other day.

I am truly worn out, I don't really have the energy for a high conflict relationship or a relationship with a pwBPD so I don't know what to do because that is what I have right now.

Things are at peace with my partner right now but he could go off the rails at any moment and ask me why I didn't respond to his email or his messages and then I would be in trouble. He said he would check in with me before he goes to sleep and I'm fine with that so I guess its up to me to uphold that boundary even if he tries to break it.

I was fine with morning and evening check ins by phone until I saw he filed for divorce.

I suppose I could restate my boundary for him.

I also was fine with calling him if there was a crisis with my d15.

I also don't know how important he is to my d15. She seems to really want things to work out between us and she does seem to behave better when they interact by text.

I'm not sure what to think right now. I am getting support to help me with my d15 and I do have some of the books from the parenting section checked out from the library and on my shelf right now.

=============

He just texted me to tell me he missed me. That's where I have the real problem. I have been told that if someone tells me they miss me and it makes me angry its time to detach in a serious way.

I wouldn't so much say I feel angry right now as I do annoyed and irritated. We had an agreement that we would check in by phone at 6/9 and its only 2:30/5:30.

Its 2:30 in the afternoon. I don't miss him. I have to get things done. My bike has a flat and I have to take it into the shop to get a new tire and the brake pads changed. I'm not thinking about my partner right now. He lives 2K miles away.

He's in the basement alone working on a sound design project. Its not my fault he's chosen to isolate himself. He always talks about being an introvert and how he doesn't need anyone but me.

I can't validate him and say I miss you too, because as I've stated many times, all of our interactions took place when he flew out here to stay with me in my apartment. I don't miss him being here. I share a 2BDR apt with my d15.

Of course I can't tell him any of that because he would get hurt and offended. So I'm just ignoring him for now as we have a planned phone meeting in 3.5 hours.

I guess I'm going to have to talk to him about not texting me in the middle of the day when we have agreed to talk on the phone at the end of the day. I'm really not looking forward to that conversation.

That would fall under what relationship I am trying to achieve and why he and I should want that and what does it include and listing what goes away.

So I guess I have my task in front of me.

What relationship am I trying to achieve?

Oh boy. Not fun.

Update: I was able to respond to his I miss you with this:


This is what I got in return


I had to look that up.

That got my blood boiling.

What am I supposed to do with that?

I was trying to make an effort to connect to him after he tried to connect to me and he responds with that.

It is no wonder I am in my emotional mind with that kind of provocation.

I cannot imagine that turning towards him when you are felling triggered will help.  It appears that when you are feeling triggered, that you are more inclined to reacting vs responding from a place of wise mind.

Feeling upset, then responding by hanging up, may be perceived as emotionally abusive. 

I believe that you would benefit from politely withdrawing yourself from the conversation BEFORE you get to a place of feeling triggered.  While I realize there may be a desire to lean on our partners for support, I wonder if RA is needed here to accept that with your SO, you cannot rely on him in such times.  Instead, you need to pull away before you feel too emotionally triggered and apply some self care on your own, or with the help of someone else. 

Do you find your SO generally helpful when he has a different opinion and you are feeling triggered?

Generally pwPD have issues of their own emotional regulation so dealing with our emotional triggers... .well, they simply are not suited to do so.  Do you think your is more capable than most in this regard?

Stating why you got upset is likely a good way for YOU to sort your own feelings out... .consider not sending tho.  I suggest that they are your feelings to deal with and the more you can sort out your feelings without him, then there will be one less stressor between you two. 


Great!


This is a good boundary.

If your value is that you will not be co-parenting with a SO who is currently married, you instead will rely on others for support when needed so as not to complicate roles/responsibilities, and to be a  model to your D to not rely on a married man for such things... .(Or however you want to state this to accurately reflect your values) Well then calling the stress line or another is something you have control over.

If he responds upset, that is not your business to soothe.   You can choose to uphold your boundary in the face of expecting him to not like it.  You also do not have to share with him the value and/or boundary.


I think part of the reason given for reducing the contact was to reduce the daily conflict.  I do not see a reduction of the conflict however.   There is little to build on for this relationship until things dial back more significantly in conflict.  It is not enough to minimize the contact, if there is still daily conflict over matters.

I think anyone would feel worn out if the conflict out weighs the lovingness for a period of time.

Do you feel that you two are able to have significantly greater loving and supportive exchanges greater than the conflicts presented?  Or is there more conflict happening than loving support for one another?


Your boundary is YOURS to uphold.  You do not need to restate anything.  You do not need his permission or cooperation.  It is your job... .not his. You are in charge of your boundaries.


His texting is not a problem.

How it makes you feel is a problem.

Sounds like you feel FOG. 

Why not simply text back, "sorry, can't txt right now, in the middle of stuff and need to focus, talk later tonight."

It sounds like you've tried all kinds of approaches to reducing the frequency and triggering effect of phone calls, emails, and texts. Some boundaries, some rules ... .some he may have said he agreed with, others he did not.

But the result has been that is walking all over those boundaries and rules. It seems that he calls, texts, and emails whenever he likes, about whatever topic he likes.

You could write him an email or call him to explain what is bothering you or what rules you want to have. His actions to date show that, regardless, he'll just walk all over them. You're giving him supply by responding, especially when you've said you wouldn't. That shows him he has control -- he can push your buttons and make you jump.

The only solution I see is to ignore all calls, emails, and texts other than those YOU have decided you want to respond to at the times you want to respond to them. Ignore them. Don't respond (or react) at all. If you want to text him once daily at 6 PM to say how your day is going, then do so, and ignore all the other crap he sends your way. If you want to go NC until you get the proof of divorce filing, then ignore everything but that proof.

He'll act out ... .but who cares? You can be strong enough to ignore all that, rather than jumping when he pushes the buttons. Eventually, he'll get the message.

No, we tend to argue at times like that.


Probably not.


I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one and I have to say because I have been sticking to my boundary of only morning and evening phone calls and no facetime, I actually find myself missing him tonight.


I have to work on this one. Its not so much that he's a married man, its that I don't want to restore things until I see from him, his attorney or the county website that he's filed, if that makes sense.


Today for the first time since I have set this boundary with him I actually missed him. I witnessed my d15 venting to him on the phone while I went outside and put air in my tire. I know my d15 is wondering why I'm not face timing him. I guess tonight is the first night I'm having a hard time sticking to my boundary, but I'm not going to break it. I think in the morning I will be able to tell him I really missed him last night and I'm looking forward to him filing his divorce so we can go back to normal.


I was able to ask him today to please not message me between 10pm and 6am PST when he knows I am sleeping. I told him it was upsetting to me to get those messages in the middle of the night and that if he had something to say to me could he please say it to me while I was awake. That seemed to have helped because now I actually find myself missing him and wanting him to get this whole thing over with.

Other members had said if I took a time out I might actually find myself missing him and that has happened, finally, after all this time.

Hi Unicorn,

I want to second (or third?) all of this and I hope you consider it carefully!

I think sharing calendars is not a good idea precisely because it gives both of you more insignificant little things to quibble over.

Also I want to repeat my suggestion of no relationship talk. Do not write that e-mail you've been thinking of writing. There is nothing good that can come out of you two arguing over who is or is not a punitive parent, who's emotionally abusive, who needs a therapist, why you were triggered, etc. Like I've said before, I think his e-mail has some valid points. But I hear that you are not ready to really think about it, and that's okay. It's totally understandable in the context of you realizing the divorce situation and how much the situation contradicts your values.

It seems like we're getting back into the territory where you're mad at him for calling you sweetie or calling himself your mate. In isolation those are nice things to say. The problem is the context of his divorce and your increasing realization of your values surrounding the divorce. You're now perceiving him as a married man, and you've realized you don't want to be in a sweetie-mate-I-miss-you relationship with a married man. That's fine, but trying to keep up this level of communication with him while you are feeling this triggered (and in the past, trying to get him to predict what will trigger you and stop doing it) is slowly chipping away at your relationship.

I don't think you're ever going to get away from love-bombing and cycling between love-bombing and devaluation, assuming he does have BPD. The project for later on will be to control your own emotional reactions to be able to stay in the middle while he goes back and forth between idealized love-bombing and devaluing. But again, you're not ready to do that, that's perfectly legitimate, but you need to back away from the relationship until you are.

I know you've been on the Staying board for a while... .what have you learned there about what it takes to be happy in a relationship with a pwBPD?

I will keep that in mind. I stopped sharing mine after he stopped sharing his. He's trying to get me to accept his calendars again but I don't want to. I'm not interested in going through that again. He is always free to share with me what he is doing.


Fair enough, I'm interested to know which points are valid. Here it is again in its entirety.





A couple of points here, he doesn't think he has BPD, he thinks his problem is not mattering to himself. I am ready to work on controlling my emotional reactions. I'm tired of being so reactive. Its exhausting.

*mod*


This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .